Blood letting question for Bass...

[USMCSS]

What all benefits are there to self bleeding other than lowering RBC's? Doc just took be off of TRT due to high RBC's

[ppwc1985]

So decided to give it a go again w.out cuff(obviously need that lol) - no crime scene this time lol - got a lil more than a quater full(just used one side/one vein) I've gotten more than hlf a liter in the two(first was a fiasco compared to this... Both roommates gone for the w/e(if I sprayed I was leaving it) So in conclusion, definitely get a cuff! <img src="http://forums.steroid.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=158431"/>

Nach, look man I think your making this to complicated. I look at your setup and just don't understand why so elaborate? Look at mine.



I would try this. I see no need why make it so complicated.i don't use a cuff anymore, just don't need it. I use one of those bands for around upper arm that they use when taking blood. Make sure you put the needle in enough, I put it in slow till the blood starts running than if it isn't fast enough I just move the needle in a very little more till it runs faster. I just did mine yesterday 500 cc in about 10 min.

[NACH3]

Nach, look man I think your making this to complicated. I look at your setup and just don't understand why so elaborate? Look at mine.



I would try this. I see no need why make it so complicated.i don't use a cuff anymore, just don't need it. I use one of those bands for around upper arm that they use when taking blood. Make sure you put the needle in enough, I put it in slow till the blood starts running than if it isn't fast enough I just move the needle in a very little more till it runs faster. I just did mine yesterday 500 cc in about 10 min.

That seems to be the problem in bold, when i first started it flowed like crazy, I'll try it like that again - I've noticed your tubing is smaller(the ID then mine) I have that size but I'll see if I can get a spike there, may have to bore out some plastic - seems like it flows great for first 5-10min - & it's not like it's clogging the spike(after... the spike was draining on its own so no blockage - or coagulation...

Thx for your feedback ppwc1985! Much appreciated, I'll give it go again -

Note - i do have to use a different location due to my AC branch(at elbow is collapsed from a coma I was in and all tubes hooked up in my arms) do you think this has anything to do w/the flow??

[ppwc1985]

This is the exact tubing I use, bought it off amazon. It fits perfectly into the female side of an 18 ga needle.



Don't give up Nach, it took me about 3-5 times to get it down and now no troubles or bruising at all. As far as the vein you use, idk are both arms collapsed? If so the may be a problem but you look like you should have some nice veins. The biggest thing I learned was to put that needle in pretty much parallel with my are so you can thread it right into the vein. Just enough to get the blood flowing, than veryyyyy little just to get it going good than my wife tapes it down. Good luck and feel free to ask if you need any more help.

[NACH3]

This is the exact tubing I use, bought it off amazon. It fits perfectly into the female side of an 18 ga needle.



Don't give up Nach, it took me about 3-5 times to get it down and now no troubles or bruising at all. As far as the vein you use, idk are both arms collapsed? If so the may be a problem but you look like you should have some nice veins. The biggest thing I learned was to put that needle in pretty much parallel with my are so you can thread it right into the vein. Just enough to get the blood flowing, than veryyyyy little just to get it going good than my wife tapes it down. Good luck and feel free to ask if you need any more help.

Unfortunately, both arms right at the AC branch(at elbow ) but I've got plenty of good veins(the same one off the branch(Sephalic vein) is great all the way down(on both) + ropes throughout forearms... I saw where Bonaparte - has said he even uses the veins in his legs(calves I believe) - as long as it's not an artery and big enough I don't see a problem(though I'd likely use my arms lol!

Thx much, ppwc1985!!!

Oh... I'm definitely not giving up(I actually kinda like the experimenting tho it'll be nice when I get it all down - thx for the pic too! You've been great help!

[Far from massive]

Hey guys, just thought I would share my approach.

Take a standard 1000ml lab bottle and drill two hole in the cap. Insert two pieces of clear plastic tubing ( I can not remember the exact size that fits tightly around the end of a standard needle but bring one with you and its easy enough to find) you can get the tubing at hardware stores etc) one hose goes to a 21 gauge needle the other to a vacuum pump (either electric or manual). By doing this you can achieve good flow with a moderate sized needle with even the thickest goopy blood. The only thing to be cautious of is if you have good thin blood and use too much suction you can actually increase flow to the point of possibly collapsing a vein...however this is easy to avoid when the flow goes from a rapid series of droplets to a small steady stream do not continue to increase vacuum.

They actually make vacu-tainers for this purpose for use by those with diseases like those that cause excessive Iron production. This way you greatly reduce the amount of damage done to your vascular system by not using big needles and long processes.

The only reason the Red Cross and other blood collection services use harpoons is that small needles cause damage to blood cells (in the blood that is removed), this of course is not an issue for those who are not reusing the blood they remove.

I am not on this site nearly as often as I used to be so I may not see question on this thread so if you have any questions feel free to PM me and I will answer them on this thread so that I will not have to repeat the answers over and over (unless they are personal if so just tell me to keep it private).

[krugerr]

Excellent thread.

A question for those in the UK. If you're not willing to self bleed. Is there anywhere you can go that will take blood but not use it?

Ie, I can't lie and give it to the NHS as they'll use it medically. But I'm not comfortable with letting myself. I awful around my own blood.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum

[Far from massive]

Had some PM's asking for more details, here goes.

I think we are on the same page, as I also use leur lock needles and use tubing where the end of the needle hub fits into the ID of the plastic tubing.


What I do though is to take a small file and make the end of the needle hub round, if you look at it you will see there are two tabs that protrude. These are what grabs the threads in the leur lock syringe when you screw the needle in. So with the needle still in the shield I take a small hand file and file these protrusions off leaving the end of the needle round. I usually make a few at a time just in case I need more than one.


Then I take the plastic tubing and run the end (first half inch or so) in steaming hot water to soften it. At this point I can manage to push and twist the end of the needle into the ID of the plastic tubing (its important that it fits tightly) since you are using vacuum if it does not then you will introduce a series of air bubbles into the hose and this will cause two things. One you will have to pump your ass off to keep vacuum high enough and two the blood will start to congeal inside the tubing.

As far as the getting winged infusion kits, I had gotten some from a veterinary supply place a while back but they were so damn dull I went back to using BD leur lock needles. Plus the lines on the infusion kits were only 6 inches so you still had to attach them to another hose anyway.

As far as any other techniques, this is a BIG one. Always keep the bevel (the slice where they grind the needle point) pointed upward (away from the skin) when you insert the needle. Along with making it easier to go through the skin and vein, if you picture the needle inside the vein this way the slice in the needle will be toward the center of the vein, if it's the other way around it's not hard to picture how the slice could rest on the wall of the vein and cut off the blood flow. Along with keeping the bevel oriented, make sure you adopt a very small angle...where the angle of the needle to the vein are close to each other. If you want to practice determining the best angle, you can take some of your clear tubing and push the needle through it as if it were the vein then take into account the small amount of distance beneath the skin your veins sit you can visualize how the opening in the needle will orient to the inside of the vein.


Next, if you have someone to help you have them take their thumb and place it atop the vein where you plan to do your venipuncture and then apply pressure and slide the thumb upward (toward the upper arm) then insert the needle about 3/4 of an inch below the thumb. By doing this you will pull the skin and vein taught and keep the vein from rolling around and deforming as you insert the needle into it.


Lastly by applying an elastic band around the arm you can increase the size of veins and pressure within them allowing for easier access and blood removal. This is because the band will not stop the flow of blood from the arteries (unless it WAAY to tight LOL) but will lessen (again not to tight you want to restrict not stop blood flow) blood flow back through the veins to the heart.

[NACH3]

Had some PM's asking for more details, here goes.

I think we are on the same page, as I also use leur lock needles and use tubing where the end of the needle hub fits into the ID of the plastic tubing.


What I do though is to take a small file and make the end of the needle hub round, if you look at it you will see there are two tabs that protrude. These are what grabs the threads in the leur lock syringe when you screw the needle in. So with the needle still in the shield I take a small hand file and file these protrusions off leaving the end of the needle round. I usually make a few at a time just in case I need more than one.


Then I take the plastic tubing and run the end (first half inch or so) in steaming hot water to soften it. At this point I can manage to push and twist the end of the needle into the ID of the plastic tubing (its important that it fits tightly) since you are using vacuum if it does not then you will introduce a series of air bubbles into the hose and this will cause two things. One you will have to pump your ass off to keep vacuum high enough and two the blood will start to congeal inside the tubing.

As far as the getting winged infusion kits, I had gotten some from a veterinary supply place a while back but they were so damn dull I went back to using BD leur lock needles. Plus the lines on the infusion kits were only 6 inches so you still had to attach them to another hose anyway.

As far as any other techniques, this is a BIG one. Always keep the bevel (the slice where they grind the needle point) pointed upward (away from the skin) when you insert the needle. Along with making it easier to go through the skin and vein, if you picture the needle inside the vein this way the slice in the needle will be toward the center of the vein, if it's the other way around it's not hard to picture how the slice could rest on the wall of the vein and cut off the blood flow. Along with keeping the bevel oriented, make sure you adopt a very small angle...where the angle of the needle to the vein are close to each other. If you want to practice determining the best angle, you can take some of your clear tubing and push the needle through it as if it were the vein then take into account the small amount of distance beneath the skin your veins sit you can visualize how the opening in the needle will orient to the inside of the vein.


Next, if you have someone to help you have them take their thumb and place it atop the vein where you plan to do your venipuncture and then apply pressure and slide the thumb upward (toward the upper arm) then insert the needle about 3/4 of an inch below the thumb. By doing this you will pull the skin and vein taught and keep the vein from rolling around and deforming as you insert the needle into it.


Lastly by applying an elastic band around the arm you can increase the size of veins and pressure within them allowing for easier access and blood removal. This is because the band will not stop the flow of blood from the arteries (unless it WAAY to tight LOL) but will lessen (again not to tight you want to restrict not stop blood flow) blood flow back through the veins to the heart.

Great post, FFM!

[bass]

Hey guys, just thought I would share my approach.

Take a standard 1000ml lab bottle and drill two hole in the cap. Insert two pieces of clear plastic tubing ( I can not remember the exact size that fits tightly around the end of a standard needle but bring one with you and its easy enough to find) you can get the tubing at hardware stores etc) one hose goes to a 21 gauge needle the other to a vacuum pump (either electric or manual). By doing this you can achieve good flow with a moderate sized needle with even the thickest goopy blood. The only thing to be cautious of is if you have good thin blood and use too much suction you can actually increase flow to the point of possibly collapsing a vein...however this is easy to avoid when the flow goes from a rapid series of droplets to a small steady stream do not continue to increase vacuum.

They actually make vacu-tainers for this purpose for use by those with diseases like those that cause excessive Iron production. This way you greatly reduce the amount of damage done to your vascular system by not using big needles and long processes.

The only reason the Red Cross and other blood collection services use harpoons is that small needles cause damage to blood cells (in the blood that is removed), this of course is not an issue for those who are not reusing the blood they remove.

I am not on this site nearly as often as I used to be so I may not see question on this thread so if you have any questions feel free to PM me and I will answer them on this thread so that I will not have to repeat the answers over and over (unless they are personal if so just tell me to keep it private).

FFM, i been using your method, the only difference is i use my mouth to create vacuum in stead of a pump.

[NACH3]

FFM, i been using your method, the only difference is i use my mouth to create vacuum in stead of a pump.

@ ppwc1985 - ^^ that's why my contraption had 2 hoses and 3 holes - like bass' post it creates a vacuum - and lessons time... I really think my spikes bevel was pointing down instead of up - Thx for your help this far guys!