Comparison between 100mg test Sub-Q and IM (with labwork)

[fm2002]

Ok, so Dr. Gaines responded below. Not as sophisticated explanation as I would like, but maybe it doesn't need to be:

gd,
"Often times, the quality of the blood vessels in the sq tissue varies.
Some age management practioners feel that there is a lack of vascularity in the abdominal sq tissue. These guys recommend injection sq over the deltoid or thigh.
I just recommend changing the sq location.
Hope you're doing well."
Rich Gaines

Ok, so this goes to the one hypothesis I threw out there that possibly the OP has a condition with his adipose tissue that won't allow for proper absorption. Dr. Gaines makes the point and makes a recommendation on what AA Docs suggest as an alternative.

Makes sense to me; if there is a lack of blood vessels in the AT than the pathway for absorption will be compromised.

OP, test other fat pads besides your stomach and see if you don't get a better result...I am willing to bet you just may

Somebody (not me as I'm a new member) with some credability should post these results on Crislers forum and see what reaction it gets there???

[fm2002]

Good stuff GFA... I would however prefer (personally) to know how much test is needed to hit that sweet spot or whatever your optimum level is while including HCG and AIs. After all I want to be as close to perfect as possible and that WILL include HCG and possibly an AI. My point is that I would think it more useful if you determined that it takes X amount of test to have EVERYTHING in range while on SQ and IM, don't get me wrong I love what you've done and commend you for it I just think to be practical and useful on a personal level one would need to find the sweet spot for both methods including all meds and then compare the amounts it takes to get there.

I'm due for blood work, 50mgs T SQ eod, 250iu HCG eod, .25 mg AI twice a week........ I'll check back

Again, great work on this thread, very interesting stuff.

Great point ! For me Testosterone is very cheap and I for one wouldn't mind injecting more or more often SubQ if I could depend on the results.

[Trific]

bump

[booku]

bump

having been doing sub-Q since the start of my therapy (12/29/2012) and have appt scheduled for 2/27 and blood work most likely March 1st.

50 mg injections twice per week, Testosterone Enanthate ONLY, injected into thighs, abdominal area, and will be trying out the glutes here soon

[clarkster]

Just switched to Sub Q 50mg. twice a week about 3 weeks ago. I can't wait to see how this plays out.

[BuzzardMarinePumper]

My BW will be very interesting . Last BW was 12/28/12

Hemoglobin was high level of normal
RBC was high level of normal

I gave blood about Jan 15th

Have been doing HCG 3 x AW per sticky at top of page .25 mL M,W,F.

E2 normal range high was 29, and mine was 66
Dr. prescribed no AI's and I have been on .25 mg 3 x AW for 3 weeks of Liquidex

Testosterone script was for 1 mL EOW and from 10/29/12 to 12/28/12
I was on off SubQ and IM every 3.5 days per info from forum = .25 mL every 3.5 days

My Test went from 78 to 468.
Free Testosterone was .1 above normal range
Doing mixed IM and SubQ every 3.5 days
E2 and RBC went high
Testosterone Cypionate only

With supplements of:

DHEA
D3
B12 1mL injection weekly
Saw Palmetto Grass
Fish Oil
Omega 3's
Magnesium
Zinc
Milk Thistle
Whey Protein

Diet target 2000 good calories aday and 6 ingestion times about every 3 hrs

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __

Since the 12/28/12 BW I have been all SubQ every 3.5 days and dropped amount to .20 of Testosterone Cypionate every 3.5 day with thoughts on high E2 and for 5 weeks no AI's

I have maintained .20 SubQ every 3.5 days since BW was reread on 1/7/13 from BW of 12/28/12 and will maintain .20 every 3.5 days until BW on or about Feb 28th

Approximately 2 weeks until next BW and stopping HCG and will cut back on AI's to .30 weekly until BW results can be posted in my old thread.

Personal note: a week after introduction of HCG world was great and AI's introduced about the same time I started having good energy level and desire to hit the gym 2 weeks after introduction. Also have really been working on Diet and added HGH Frag 176-191 Belly fat cell peptide into research and IT WORKS ! weight at BW 12/28/12 was 245 now 1/13/13 235 lbs and loving life.

Oh I tip my hat to GDevine for the cialis tip pumps at gym are unreal and vascularity eve shows on a 53 year old man that does not have low BF% but not FA _ _ ! Good pumps at gym, vascularity and wood like no tomorrow it is the real deal a must have for TRT and a healthy life style !

Starting to lowtestosterone.com as soon as Sugar Hill GA. Office opens in March

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____

My Dr. is not educated in TRT nor am I still learning only been on TRT since 10/29/12 ! Only thing my Dr. is good for is 1 mL of Testosterone Cypionate EOW Script and a place to get BW done and covered by insurance !

I have had to ask a lot of dumb question on this forum to get answers ; and I really want to thank Kel, Vettester, Lobyst, & fit2bold, they have been very tempered and I would not be feeling as good as I do without them it is a Marathon not a sprint and more is not better !

A word to a lot of you newer than me guys I am 53 and have a lot of health issues and all the TRT in the world will not fix you if you don't get that diet dialed in at the same time ! From a 53 year old TRT man in the effort to obtain balance in my hormones !

[HRTstudent]

Good to see you're getting a new doc Buzzard! Even better to read how much better you're feeling!

[bigboy67]

The point I am making is if you are taking HCG and switch from IM to SQ, your test levels could stay the same but the testosterone is not being absorbed and the increase would be due solely to HCG + AI.

HCG mono can raise your test levels significantly if you are secondary.

The ideal experiment scenario would be to just take testosterone IM and repeat SQ.

If you are currently taking HCG + AI and doing SQ injections, dropping HCG and the AI will let you know how much test you are absorbing from the test alone.

This isnt making sense to me. IT is plenty valid to go from hcg/ai/IM to hcg/ai/SubQ... as long as his amounts of hcg and AI werent changed when he switched from IM to subQ, the difference in Test would be from the Testosterone alone. How much Test was added by the AI/hcg would be irrelevant because the same amounts were used in both cases.

And you shouldn't tell people they can't conceive if on long term TRT, it simply isn't true. Even hardcore AAS users have plenty of kids, it just doesnt work that way. Not saying that to be combative, just dont want some 22 year old kid thinking that because he is on TRT that his girlfriend can pull the goalie, he may be in for a rude awakening!

I also switched from twice weekly of 50mg Test IM to twice weekly 50mg Test SubQ. I have been running it this way for a full two months, and will be getting bloods done soon, so I will update my thread accordingly. Interested to see how it has been working. I would also love to know WHY some guys do well SubQ and others don't, too bad our government won't do any tests on Testosterone so we can actually have good peer reviewed scientific info

[GFA]

This isnt making sense to me. IT is plenty valid to go from hcg /ai/IM to hcg/ai/SubQ... as long as his amounts of hcg and AI werent changed when he switched from IM to subQ, the difference in Test would be from the Testosterone alone. How much Test was added by the AI/hcg would be irrelevant because the same amounts were used in both cases.

And you shouldn't tell people they can't conceive if on long term TRT, it simply isn't true. Even hardcore AAS users have plenty of kids, it just doesnt work that way. Not saying that to be combative, just dont want some 22 year old kid thinking that because he is on TRT that his girlfriend can pull the goalie, he may be in for a rude awakening!

I also switched from twice weekly of 50mg Test IM to twice weekly 50mg Test SubQ. I have been running it this way for a full two months, and will be getting bloods done soon, so I will update my thread accordingly. Interested to see how it has been working. I would also love to know WHY some guys do well SubQ and others don't, too bad our government won't do any tests on Testosterone so we can actually have good peer reviewed scientific info

It makes complete sense that when you do a controlled study, you have a clear control point. By introducing variables like an AI or HCG, that clouds the results.

Ill give you an example.


You can take 250iu HCG 3x a week and achieve a 700+ total test. (assuming the user is secondary and receptive to HCG)
You can take 100mg Test 1x a week and achieve a 700+ total test.
You can take an AI and raise your test a few hundred points.

Taking them at the same time will not bring you to 1600+ total test. Its not cumulative.

If you were going to do a scientific study of the efficacy of anything, you dont have multiple things you test at the same time otherwise it would be difficult to determine if it actually works.

Regardless, if you want to see how your body responds and have an exact picture of IM vs SQ, you should only use Test during the trial period.

100mg test SQ vs 100mg test IM

My body did not respond to SQ in the belly region. I dropped from almost 800 total test (IM 100mg test week x1) to 300 (SQ 100mg test week x1).
Injection was on Sunday, labs done on wednesday. The only variable was injection method (SQ vs IM).

Here is the real question, where is the Test I injected? Is it just sitting in some pool of fat waiting to be released one day or did my body somehow metabolize it.

I have since switched back to IM and just had new BW done this week. Ill post up my results as soon as I have them.

I dont recall telling people that taking test will make them sterile but at 22, why risk it if you want to have kids one today? I would explore other options like HCG which doesn't shut down your HPTA and encourages natural testosterone production assuming the person is secondary.

I am considering adding HCG back to my protocol but I want to see where my next lab brings me, then I will adjust accordingly. I was struggling for awhile to get my hemoglobin under control (was as high as 20!) but now its down in the 13s after my last double red donation.

PS - I really wished SQ worked because IM can be painful at times. I did my last injection in the delt and it wasnt so bad. Sore for a few days but went in easy.

The problem I have is people are so quick to switch to a method and repeat it as the TRT bible without even trying it to see how it impacts their body or says, wow this is amazing but at the same time they take 10 other ancillaries. Is SQ still effective? How can you tell? Maybe its one of the 10 other drugs you are taking.

The only way to know for sure is to do a controlled study on yourself. Otherwise you could be injecting your test and achieve the same results as pouring it into the drain.

PSS - If you look at most of the people that have tried both in this thread, their results have not been very positive. I might try SQ again in the thigh (less fat) and post up a comparison. For now I just want to be normal.

[GFA]

GFA
Baseline 284 ng/dL (Total test)
SQ 366 ng/dL (Total test) 102.9 ng/dL range 40.0-250.0 (F+W Bound) 100mg (1x100 weekly)
IM 792 ng/dL (Total test) 243.1 ng/dL range 40.0-250.0 (F+W Bound) 100mg (1x100 weekly)
Summary - IM 600% more effective than SQ for total test. During the SQ injections, my oily skin went away, strength decreased, lower libdo. Labs reflect my overall sense of well being.

clarkster
Base 175 (Total test)
SQ 580 (Total test) 100 mg test (50mg 2x a week) 250 ius hcg 3x a week
IM 781 200mg week

rhoag
Baseline 304
SQ 394 ng/dL (Total test) 50mg x2 SQ
IM ?

dhickey
Baseline ?
SQ 508 ng/dL (Total test) 60mg x2 SQ, 250iu HCG SQ x2
IM 1223 ng/dL (Total test) 100mg IM x2, 250 iu HCG SQ x2

lacy23
Baseline 284 ng/dL (Total test)
SQ 400 ng/dL (Total test) 13mg test ED SQ, 80 iu HCG ED SQ
IM 720 ng/dL (Total test) 65mg E5D IM, 200iu HCG 2 days before Test

Allaaro
Baseline 19.1 (Free test) range 31-94 range
SQ 56.5 (Free test) 150mg (3x50mg)
IM 121.1 (Free test) 200mg (2x100mg)
Summary - 30% increase in test yields 150% higher free test levels. Would like to see similar levels of test injected per week and total test. Your free test increases look similar to mine in terms of percentages.

Booku
Baseline 70 ng/dL (Total test) 1.7 pg/mL range 9.3-26.5 pg/mL (free test)
SQ ? 100mg (2x50mg)
IM ?
Summary - unknown

Ratt
Baseline 256 ng/dL
SQ 450 ng/dL 100mg (2x50mg)
IM 750-900 ng/dL (120mg weekly, frequency unknown)
Summary - 300-450 ng/dL reduction using SQ.

38onTRT
Baseline ?
SQ 486 ng/dL 100mg (2x50mg) along with 500 iu HCG weekly and AI
IM ?
Summary - Unknown but @100mg test a week + hcg, test should be much higher, closer to double reported values. Switching back to IM and will report updated BW. Recommendation to keep the protocol the same with the exception of injection type (IM vs SQ).

Ryanmcd
Baseline ?
SQ - No data but quote "I felt like crap on SQ and went back to IM, no bloodwork to show but I know when I take naps again and dick is broke my test was low lol."
IM 750 ng/dL 100mg (1x100)

Rollingthunder
Baseline ?
SQ 9 (7.2-24.0) (free test) 100mg (50mgx2)
IM 24 (7.2-24.0) (free test) 100mg (1x100mg)
Summary - There was a huge drop in test switching to SQ, some other variables such as HCG added, AI dropped during SQ phase.

HRTStudent
Baseline ?
SQ - 120mg (3x40mg weekly) + AI
IM - 150mg (2x75mg weekly) + AI
Summary - Need values. Difficult to make a determination on efficacy. Different dosages, lab draw, AI, testosterone amounts. Says numbers are similar, appears to metabolize via SQ at a lower rate than many of the others.

Added a few more people - Here are the results so far. Draw your own conclusions.

[kelkel]

GFA this really has been one of the more interesting threads here. You put a lot of work and thought into it and it is appreciated by many.

[alpinist]

Thanks for putting all that together.

Are there any good ideas about where the 'extra' sub q T ends up?

Also, I wonder if somewhere in here there should be a discussion about pin length, injection site, and BF? For example, I'm using 25 gauge x 5/8" into my glutes and I have about 12% BF. I've considered it IM but I wonder if sometimes it sorta ends being something in between IM and SuqQ?

[kelkel]

Always good to have a variety of pins on hand. I mostly just use 27ga .5" everywhere anymore but it depends on the site your injecting and your BF%.

[GFA]

GFA this really has been one of the more interesting threads here. You put a lot of work and thought into it and it is appreciated by many.

Thanks Kel. Im just trying to get to the bottom of the whole SQ vs IM debate and figure out the optimal delivery method. Is it less effective than IM and under what circumstances? Is there a peak dosage SQ before it becomes ineffective? What is that amount and why should it matter?

I keep hearing people say to inject smaller amounts not only to maintain a stable test level but because larger injections SQ get wasted? Test is test and has a half life regardless of delivery method. Why should it matter if you inject 50mg or 100mg SQ? It still has a half life of 6 days.

What we have determined so far is, belly fat injections are not effective.

What we still do not know is, what happens to that test you injected if the body doesn't absorb it?

Does injecting into the thigh or less fatty areas SQ improve absorption rates?

If so, by how much?

Why cant you injection more than x mg SQ? What is that x?

What is the optimal frequency and dosage to maintain high levels of absorption and stable e2 levels?

Too many unknowns and until many of these questions are answered, I would have a hard time recommending this delivery method to others.

Rhoag is the perfect example as to why. He started with SQ and his TT basically didnt move. This is the same thing I experienced via SQ.

rhoag
Baseline 304
SQ 394 ng/dL (Total test) 50mg x2 SQ
IM ?

GFA
Baseline 284 ng/dL (Total test)
SQ 366 ng/dL (Total test) 102.9 ng/dL range 40.0-250.0 (F+W Bound) 100mg (1x100 weekly)
IM 792 ng/dL (Total test) 243.1 ng/dL range 40.0-250.0 (F+W Bound) 100mg (1x100 weekly)

[clarkster]

For myself, again I don't have all my BW as I didn't know what to ask for, but now I do, I was hoping that SQ was gonna be the way to go. When I was pinning IM with 200mg. Test once a week, my levels were ***, but I was NOT using hCG . After finding this site, I switched to SQ 50mg. 2x weekly and added 250ius hCG M-W-F and my T levels dropped to 505. I thought my levels would remain close to what they were now that I added the hCG. My pre TRT levels were 175. Was it the hCG that at least kept my levels at 505 or was it the hCG? Until insurance will allow me to get BW it might be difficult to answer. It does seem that some of the TRT veterans here are pinning either both IM and SQ or exclusively IM. I have no problem pinning IM, did it for years, but when reading about scar tissue it made me think about going SQ.

[GFA]

For myself, again I don't have all my BW as I didn't know what to ask for, but now I do, I was hoping that SQ was gonna be the way to go. When I was pinning IM with 200mg. Test once a week, my levels were ***, but I was NOT using hCG. After finding this site, I switched to SQ 50mg. 2x weekly and added 250ius hCG M-W-F and my T levels dropped to 580. I thought my levels would remain close to what they were now that I added the hCG. My pre TRT levels were 175. Was it the hCG that at least kept my levels at 580 or was it the hCG? Until insurance will allow me to get BW it might be difficult to answer. It does seem that some of the TRT veterans here are pinning either both IM and SQ or exclusively IM. I have no problem pinning IM, did it for years, but when reading about scar tissue it made me think about going SQ.

Do you have your values clarkster? What was your levels @200mg a week? I would guess well over 1000 TT. Where were you injecting SQ?

So adding 250iu hcg 3x a week and switching to SQ your test levels dropped to 580 from what ? But yes adding hCG would make it hard to determine if the was the Test or hCG keeping your levels in the normal range. Unfortunately you will not know but I would guess it was the hCG keeping your levels up, not the SQ test injections if you are secondary.

Base 175
SQ 580 - 100 mg test (50mg 2x a week) 250 ius hcg 3x a week
IM ? 200mg week

When I was doing 100mg test weekly + hcg like this, my TT was 1100 using IM injections, 580 seems low for both test + hcg.

One other question, are you switching back to 100mg a week IM along with HCG? This will let you know if IM is better.

Prediction - if you switch back to IM, your TT will jump up a few hundred points.

PS - this is what i mean by too many variables You went from 200mg test to 100mg with 750 iu HCG.

But now you have a new baseline to test from, 100mg SQ + HCG to 100mg IM + HCG. Still not perfect from a control standpoint but better than nothing.

[GFA]

GFA
Baseline 284 ng/dL (Total test)
SQ 366 ng/dL (Total test) 102.9 ng/dL range 40.0-250.0 (F+W Bound) 100mg (1x100 weekly)
IM 792 ng/dL (Total test) 243.1 ng/dL range 40.0-250.0 (F+W Bound) 100mg (1x100 weekly)
Summary - IM 600% more effective than SQ for total test. During the SQ injections, my oily skin went away, strength decreased, lower libdo. Labs reflect my overall sense of well being.

clarkster
Base 175 (Total test)
SQ 580 (Total test) 100 mg test (50mg 2x a week) 250 ius hcg 3x a week
IM ? 200mg week
Summary - too many things changed but TT still seems low for hcg + 100mg test. Waiting for results @200mg test a week and hopefully 100mg + hcg IM.

rhoag
Baseline 304
SQ 394 ng/dL (Total test) 50mg x2 SQ
IM ?

dhickey
Baseline ?
SQ 508 ng/dL (Total test) 60mg x2 SQ, 250iu HCG SQ x2
IM 1223 ng/dL (Total test) 100mg IM x2, 250 iu HCG SQ x2

lacy23
Baseline 284 ng/dL (Total test)
SQ 400 ng/dL (Total test) 13mg test ED SQ, 80 iu HCG ED SQ
IM 720 ng/dL (Total test) 65mg E5D IM, 200iu HCG 2 days before Test

Allaaro
Baseline 19.1 (Free test) range 31-94 range
SQ 56.5 (Free test) 150mg (3x50mg)
IM 121.1 (Free test) 200mg (2x100mg)
Summary - 30% increase in test yields 150% higher free test levels. Would like to see similar levels of test injected per week and total test. Your free test increases look similar to mine in terms of percentages.

Booku
Baseline 70 ng/dL (Total test) 1.7 pg/mL range 9.3-26.5 pg/mL (free test)
SQ 920 (Total Test) 100mg (2x50mg)
IM ?
Summary - unknown

Ratt
Baseline 256 ng/dL
SQ 450 ng/dL 100mg (2x50mg)
IM 750-900 ng/dL (120mg weekly, frequency unknown)
Summary - 300-450 ng/dL reduction using SQ.

38onTRT
Baseline ?
SQ 486 ng/dL 100mg (2x50mg) along with 500 iu HCG weekly and AI
IM ?
Summary - Unknown but @100mg test a week + hcg, test should be much higher, closer to double reported values. Switching back to IM and will report updated BW. Recommendation to keep the protocol the same with the exception of injection type (IM vs SQ).

Ryanmcd
Baseline ?
SQ - No data but quote "I felt like crap on SQ and went back to IM, no bloodwork to show but I know when I take naps again and dick is broke my test was low lol."
IM 750 ng/dL 100mg (1x100)

Rollingthunder
Baseline ?
SQ 9 (7.2-24.0) (free test) 100mg (50mgx2)
IM 24 (7.2-24.0) (free test) 100mg (1x100mg)
Summary - There was a huge drop in test switching to SQ, some other variables such as HCG added, AI dropped during SQ phase.

HRTStudent
Baseline ?
SQ - 120mg (3x40mg weekly) + AI
IM - 150mg (2x75mg weekly) + AI
Summary - Need values. Difficult to make a determination on efficacy. Different dosages, lab draw, AI, testosterone amounts. Says numbers are similar, appears to metabolize via SQ at a lower rate than many of the others.

Here are the results so far. Draw your own conclusions.

[booku]

booku here.

Update after 9 weeks SQ:

reference my injection chart for needle location/length/gauge
http://forums.steroid.com/attachment...2&d=1362967860

Total testosterone : 920 ng/dl (310-1010 ng/dl)
Free testosterone: 233.1 pg/ml (47-244 pg/ml)
SHBG: 29 nmol/L (13-71 nmol/L)
Free estradiol, serum: 0.65 pg/ml, adult males 0.2-1.5 pg/ml
Estradiol, serum: 21 pg/ml, adult males 8-35 pg/ml

Seems like i am one of the few that it is working well for??? I did stop injecting in the abdomen after the 1st 4 weeks and injected in the glutes/thighs the last 5 weeks, so yea, take that for what its worth, who knows.

mind you, i am 23 and fairly low BF (<15% but greater than 10%)

[GFA]

booku here.

Update after 9 weeks SQ:

reference my injection chart for needle location/length/gauge
http://forums.steroid.com/attachment...2&d=1362967860

Total testosterone : 920 ng/dl (310-1010 ng/dl)
Free testosterone: 233.1 pg/ml (47-244 pg/ml)
SHBG: 29 nmol/L (13-71 nmol/L)
Free estradiol, serum: 0.65 pg/ml, adult males 0.2-1.5 pg/ml
Estradiol, serum: 21 pg/ml, adult males 8-35 pg/ml

Seems like i am one of the few that it is working well for??? I did stop injecting in the abdomen after the 1st 4 weeks and injected in the glutes/thighs the last 5 weeks, so yea, take that for what its worth, who knows.

mind you, i am 23 and fairly low BF (<15% but greater than 10%)

Finally a positive result! Are you taking any other ancillaries? (AI, HCG )?

I might try SQ again in thigh after I get my BW in order.

[booku]

Finally a positive result! Are you taking any other ancillaries? (AI, HCG )?

I might try SQ again in thigh after I get my BW in order.

nope just 100 mg test per week.

[Trific]

Finally a positive result! Are you taking any other ancillaries? (AI, HCG )?

I might try SQ again in thigh after I get my BW in order.

Booku has low BF% so his pins might really have been IM after he quit using the stomach or at least very close. Plus he is fairly young and active. I think these are all variables to consider.

http://www.relion.com/diabetes/syringes

[GFA]

nope just 100 mg test per week.

That is encouraging news. Ill ask my doc for another LW script and try again SQ in thigh to see if that makes a difference. The other variable here is your BF%. Your BF% is pretty low.

I would really like to switch to SQ. Much easier than IM. Hopefully it works next go around.

[GFA]

Booku has low BF% so his pins might really have been IM after he quit using the stomach or at least very close. Plus he is fairly young and active. I think these are all variables to consider.

Yep, noted. Thats why I will try again and be the lab rat but next time only inject in the thigh SQ. The rollercoaster ride I go on for you guys!

[Trific]

Yep, noted. Thats why I will try again and be the lab rat but next time only inject in the thigh SQ. The rollercoaster ride I go on for you guys!

[clarkster]

Yep, noted. Thats why I will try again and be the lab rat but next time only inject in the thigh SQ. The rollercoaster ride I go on for you guys!

That's the question I've always had, if you pin in your thigh with a slin pin, isn't it at that point an IM pin vs. SQ? When I first heard about pinning SQ, I heard to pin in your vastus lateralis. It wasn't until I saw the Dr. Crisler vid that I decided to pin in my stomach.

[clarkster]

Do you have your values clarkster? What was your levels @200mg a week? I would guess well over 1000 TT. Where were you injecting SQ?
[/U]I was injecting IM 200mgs. one time a week and my T level was ***. And NO hCG.

So adding 250iu hcg 3x a week and switching to SQ your test levels dropped to 580 from what ? But yes adding hCG would make it hard to determine if the was the Test or hCG keeping your levels in the normal range. Unfortunately you will not know but I would guess it was the hCG keeping your levels up, not the SQ test injections if you are secondary.
That was my thought as well, was it the hCG keeping my levels up or the Test?

Base 175
SQ 580 - 100 mg test (50mg 2x a week) 250 ius hcg 3x a week
IM *** 200mg week

When I was doing 100mg test weekly + hcg like this, my TT was 1100 using IM injections, 580 seems low for both test + hcg.

One other question, are you switching back to 100mg a week IM along with HCG? This will let you know if IM is better.
I've been thinking about it. But, after reading Booku's post, (I do have to keep in mind he's 23 and I'm 43) I might try SQ in my thigh first and see if that doesn't help and then if that doesn't work, go back to IM.

Prediction - if you switch back to IM, your TT will jump up a few hundred points.

PS - this is what i mean by too many variables You went from 200mg test to 100mg with 750 iu HCG.

But now you have a new baseline to test from, 100mg SQ + HCG to 100mg IM + HCG. Still not perfect from a control standpoint but better than nothing.

I was pinning 200mg. Test IM once a week with no hCG and my T level was ***.
And that's what i was wondering as well was it the hCG that was keeping my levels up or was in the Test?

[clarkster]

For some reason it won't let me put my T level but it was *** or Seven Hundred Eighty when I was pinning IM with 200mg. Test once weekly. After reading Booku's post I might go back to pinning SQ in my thigh and see how that works and if not, I'll think I'll at least mix in IM.

[GFA]

Just did my first SQ injection 60mg into the thigh using a 31g slin needle 5/16" (.3cc). Completely painless. Plan is to do 60mg 2x a week (120mg a week total).

Ill keep everyone posted. I have another doc visit in a month, will ask him for another script for LW. Ill also share these findings with him, my doc is really cool and would be interested in it.

He treats a few people that are hypogonadal and many of them were using Androgel . I was the first using test-cyp. I explained to him how I tried the gel and it didnt work, he switched his patients over to t-cyp too after they were non responders to the gel.

Im curious of HCG has any impact on hemoglobin levels, ever since I stopped the HCG my hemo has been perfect.

Anyways stay tuned! Does SQ work in fatter people is the question we hope to answer here

[GFA]

For some reason it won't let me put my T level but it was *** or Seven Hundred Eighty when I was pinning IM with 200mg. Test once weekly. After reading Booku's post I might go back to pinning SQ in my thigh and see how that works and if not, I'll think I'll at least mix in IM.

Ya wierd, the forum is blocking 781-1. (seven hundred eighty is blocked). I just tried adding it to the results and I was also blocked. I put in 781 instead for you.

[GFA]

Lab results in

120mg test IM 1x weekly, injection on sunday morning, lab taken at 2pm on wednesday. E2 is high, might need to take something to manage it.

Test Low Normal High Reference Range Units
Estradiol 42.6 7.6-42.6 pg/mL

Testosterone , Serum

Test Low Normal High Reference Range Units
Testosterone, Serum 923 348-1197 ng/dL

GFA
Baseline 284 ng/dL (Total test)
SQ 366 ng/dL (Total test) 102.9 ng/dL range 40.0-250.0 (F+W Bound) 100mg (1x100 weekly)
IM 792 ng/dL (Total test) 243.1 ng/dL range 40.0-250.0 (F+W Bound) 100mg (1x100 weekly)
IM 923 ng/dL (Total test) 243.1 ng/dL range 40.0-250.0 (F+W Bound) 120mg (1x weekly)


Here is my full CBC - hemo and hematocrit low normal. Guess thats what 10 donations in a year will do to you

Test Low Normal High Reference Range Units
Rdw 15.5 12.3-15.4 %
Mch 22.0 26.6-33.0 pg
Mcv 69 79-97 fL
Monocytes(Absolute) 0.6 0.1-1.0 x10E3/uL
Neutrophils (Absolute) 3.0 1.8-7.8 x10E3/uL
Rbc 5.74 4.14-5.80 x10E6/uL
Neutrophils 50 40-74 %
Hemoglobin 12.6 12.6-17.7 g/dL
Mchc 31.7 31.5-35.7 g/dL
Wbc 5.9 4.0-10.5 x10E3/uL
Lymphs (Absolute) 2.1 0.7-4.5 x10E3/uL
Eos 2 0-7 %
Immature Grans (Abs) 0.0 0.0-0.1 x10E3/uL
Immature Granulocytes 0 0-2 %
Eos (Absolute) 0.1 0.0-0.4 x10E3/uL
Platelets 349 140-415 x10E3/uL
Baso (Absolute) 0.0 0.0-0.2 x10E3/uL
Hematocrit 39.8 37.5-51.0 %
Monocytes 10 4-13 %
Lymphs 37 14-46 %
Basos 1 0-3 %

[Rusty11]

Ok. I don't inject, but have been reading this thread. Quick question/comment... if recent bw shows IM is working better for you, why try sq again? I thought that wasn't as effective for you. Also regarding e2, these ranges indicate it's the regular test (geared more for women). It might be premature to say your e2 is high until you get the sensitive test. With this same test, I was 48 one month and 24 a couple months later. Nothing changed in my protocol. I got myself the sensitve assay and I was at 35. I dunno...some ppl think regular e2 test is close enough. Others say it's useless. Just don't want to see another guy take an AI, only to come crashing down because they really didn't need it. Good luck, bud.

[Trific]

Anyways stay tuned! Does SQ work in fatter people is the question we hope to answer here

You could add age and weight and/or BF% for more data to chew through...

[GFA]

Ok. I don't inject, but have been reading this thread. Quick question/comment... if recent bw shows IM is working better for you, why try sq again? I thought that wasn't as effective for you. Also regarding e2, these ranges indicate it's the regular test (geared more for women). It might be premature to say your e2 is high until you get the sensitive test. With this same test, I was 48 one month and 24 a couple months later. Nothing changed in my protocol. I got myself the sensitve assay and I was at 35. I dunno...some ppl think regular e2 test is close enough. Others say it's useless. Just don't want to see another guy take an AI, only to come crashing down because they really didn't need it. Good luck, bud.

A few reasons I would rather do SQ
1. easier to inject, I have 30+ years of TRT before I die, Id like it to be as easy as possible. SQ is completely painless. IM can hurt like a bitch if you hit a nerve or after awhile scar tissue builds up.
2. academic, as we have already seen, SQ injections for testosterone is not reliable, why? hopefully as a community we can figure it out. So far it seems where you inject makes a difference due to BF levels.

If we can determine the optimal delivery method, we can do something the govt will/has not.

You could add age and weight and/or BF% for more data to chew through...

Yep. Hopefully injecting into my thigh will yield better results. If not, I can always fall back to IM.

[GFA]

Adding in Age and Weight/BF if you have it.

GFA - 210 lbs, 41 years old ~20-25% Bf?
Baseline 284 ng/dL (Total test)
SQ 366 ng/dL (Total test) 102.9 ng/dL range 40.0-250.0 (F+W Bound) 100mg (1x100 weekly)
IM 792 ng/dL (Total test) 243.1 ng/dL range 40.0-250.0 (F+W Bound) 100mg (1x100 weekly)
IM 923 ng/dL (Total test) 243.1 ng/dL range 40.0-250.0 (F+W Bound) 120mg (1x weekly)
Summary - IM 600% more effective than SQ for total test. During the SQ injections, my oily skin went away, strength decreased, lower libdo. Labs reflect my overall sense of well being.

badrad123 - 46 years old, ~22% BF
Base 195 (Total test)
SQ 375 (Total test) 80 mg test (40mg 2x a week)
IM ?
Summary - Most recent test of 375 TT seems to indicate badrad is not responsive to belly SQ injections.

clarkster
Base 175 (Total test)
SQ 580 (Total test) 100 mg test (50mg 2x a week) 250 ius hcg 3x a week
IM 781 200mg week
Summary - too many things changed but TT still seems low for hcg + 100mg test.

rhoag
Baseline 304
SQ 394 ng/dL (Total test) 50mg x2 SQ
IM ?

dhickey
Baseline ?
SQ 508 ng/dL (Total test) 60mg x2 SQ, 250iu HCG SQ x2
IM 1223 ng/dL (Total test) 100mg IM x2, 250 iu HCG SQ x2

lacy23
Baseline 284 ng/dL (Total test)
SQ 400 ng/dL (Total test) 13mg test ED SQ, 80 iu HCG ED SQ
IM 720 ng/dL (Total test) 65mg E5D IM, 200iu HCG 2 days before Test

Allaaro
Baseline 19.1 (Free test) range 31-94 range
SQ 56.5 (Free test) 150mg (3x50mg)
IM 121.1 (Free test) 200mg (2x100mg)
Summary - 30% increase in test yields 150% higher free test levels. Would like to see similar levels of test injected per week and total test. Your free test increases look similar to mine in terms of percentages.

Booku - 23 years old, ~10-15% BF
Baseline 70 ng/dL (Total test) 1.7 pg/mL range 9.3-26.5 pg/mL (free test)
SQ 920 (Total Test) 100mg (2x50mg)
IM ?
Summary - Responds well to SQ injections. Age, activity or BF levels play a role? Booku switched from belly to thigh injections.

Ratt
Baseline 256 ng/dL
SQ 450 ng/dL 100mg (2x50mg)
IM 750-900 ng/dL (120mg weekly, frequency unknown)
Summary - 300-450 ng/dL reduction using SQ.

38onTRT
Baseline ?
SQ 486 ng/dL 100mg (2x50mg) along with 500 iu HCG weekly and AI
IM ?
Summary - Unknown but @100mg test a week + hcg, test should be much higher, closer to double reported values. Switching back to IM and will report updated BW. Recommendation to keep the protocol the same with the exception of injection type (IM vs SQ).

Ryanmcd
Baseline ?
SQ - No data but quote "I felt like crap on SQ and went back to IM, no bloodwork to show but I know when I take naps again and dick is broke my test was low lol."
IM 750 ng/dL 100mg (1x100)

Rollingthunder
Baseline ?
SQ 9 (7.2-24.0) (free test) 100mg (50mgx2)
IM 24 (7.2-24.0) (free test) 100mg (1x100mg)
Summary - There was a huge drop in test switching to SQ, some other variables such as HCG added, AI dropped during SQ phase.

HRTStudent
Baseline ?
SQ - 120mg (3x40mg weekly) + AI
IM - 150mg (2x75mg weekly) + AI
Summary - Need values. Difficult to make a determination on efficacy. Different dosages, lab draw, AI, testosterone amounts. Says numbers are similar, appears to metabolize via SQ at a lower rate than many of the others.

Summary - It appears injecting into belly fat for people with higher BF% is ineffective for SQ. Additional testing is required. Of all the respondents, only one has seen positive results using SQ, booku. He is 23 with approximately 10-15% BF and injected into a low fat area of the body, thigh. Given his low BF levels, its possible the SQ injections were actually IM.

GFA is attempting SQ again into thigh only with 60mg test x2 a week (120mg a week total).

[badrad123]

I would like to add my info to this trial. I've been doing SubQ for the past 6 months. I started out injecting 2x a week and then moved to e3d to help lower my e2. However, I only inject around 37-38mg per injection. I'm still trying to dial in my dose and injection frequency but overall it seems to work.

Oh yea, I inject in the stomach. My most recent tests showed a total t level of 975 18 hours after injecting and then 375 on the morning of the next injection (still trying to figure out why the huge swing). I tried IM but my body at the time couldn't handle the quick spike in T.

My baseline T level was around 195 at time of starting and as low as 135 ( high stress period at work).

Based on reading this thread I think I might try injecting in my thigh and see if the results are better. No HCG in the past 3 months and no AI in the past 4 weeks. Before I was on .25mg liquidex a week taken EOD. This lowered my e2 from 39 to 20.

[GFA]

I would like to add my info to this trial. I've been doing SubQ for the past 6 months. I started out injecting 2x a week and then moved to e3d to help lower my e2. However, I only inject around 37-38mg per injection. I'm still trying to dial in my dose and injection frequency but overall it seems to work.

Oh yea, I inject in the stomach. My most recent tests showed a total t level of 975 18 hours after injecting and then 375 on the morning of the next injection (still trying to figure out why the huge swing). I tried IM but my body at the time couldn't handle the quick spike in T.

My baseline T level was around 195 at time of starting and as low as 135 ( high stress period at work).

Based on reading this thread I think I might try injecting in my thigh and see if the results are better. No HCG in the past 3 months and no AI in the past 4 weeks. Before I was on .25mg liquidex a week taken EOD. This lowered my e2 from 39 to 20.

Your numbers don't make sense. Usually peak is 48-72 hours after injection. Maybe you had a bad test? Do you have more than 1 test result? What kind of testosterone are you injecting?

What is your age and bf%?

[booku]

Good summary for my piece of the experiment. Don't forget though that two of my weeks used the glutes with a 3/8" needle, which is definitely SQ. The problem with SQ for me is that I can't seem to figure out how to prevent the little hard nodules that develop. Not only that, they end up itching pretty bad until about the next injection (3-4 days). I feel like I did NOT get the nodules initially when I went in the abdomen and just pulled straight out and didnt mess with or massage or touch the area. Who knows. Anyone have a good SQ technique that prevents nodules?

Also, I agree that my thigh injects might have been shallow IM, which kind of clouds my results. I mean when I flex my leg, I can see full quad separation but theres no veins showing or anything

[GFA]

Good summary for my piece of the experiment. Don't forget though that two of my weeks used the glutes with a 3/8" needle, which is definitely SQ. The problem with SQ for me is that I can't seem to figure out how to prevent the little hard nodules that develop. Not only that, they end up itching pretty bad until about the next injection (3-4 days). I feel like I did NOT get the nodules initially when I went in the abdomen and just pulled straight out and didnt mess with or massage or touch the area. Who knows. Anyone have a good SQ technique that prevents nodules?

You can always try belly injections again and post up your labs Maybe it will work for you given your low BF levels.

Do you pinch then push the needle in? How quickly do you inject?

[badrad123]

Yes, I have my most recent tests on the day of injection which was 375 and E2 of 20. Yea, I was wondering about that 975 score. I just figured it was due to the fact it was taken 18 hours after my injection.

I'm 46 years old , 6'0" and BF is around 22%. I'll try to find my last blood test and post it.

Oh, I'm using Test Cyp.

Thanks!

[GFA]

Yes, I have my most recent tests on the day of injection which was 375 and E2 of 20. Yea, I was wondering about that 975 score. I just figured it was due to the fact it was taken 18 hours after my injection.

I'm 46 years old , 6'0" and BF is around 22%. I'll try to find my last blood test and post it.

Oh, I'm using Test Cyp.

Thanks!

Ya that sounds more accurate. Seems you are also not responding to to SQ injections in the belly. Try in the thigh see if that is any better.

Btw, your SQ test result is almost identical to mine. I was 366 TT but that was @100mg a week 1 injection. Labs take 3 days after injection.