Transition from Test Cyp to Androgel AND.....

[2Sox]

As a short term semi-scientific experiment, I spent the last four weeks taking test cyp shots - 100mg per week with 250iu of Hcg twice weekly. Now, I'm switching back to Androgel , which I much prefer.

Two Questions:
1. What would you suggest as the best way to transition from one to the other? (I would be due to take a shot this Friday, which would be seven days from the last one.)

2. What Hcg Protocol would you suggest with Androgel 1.62%?
From what I have read, Dr. Crisler seems to be open to a wide variety of options.
I only have taken a total of 5 shots of Hcg to date (250iu). At this point my testes are just beginning to recover from 7 months of TRT without Hcg previous to these 5 shots. What would be a suggested way to really jump start them before I settle into a regular weekly pattern of Hcg injections?

Since I'm one of the "senior" members (in age) of this forum, I'm thinking that 250iu EOD would be good regular weekly protocol for me. I'm very eager to hear other suggestions.

[powerlifterty16]

i cant be of help, but what makes you prefer androgel to cyp and do you find it hard not to transfer the gel to family?

As a short term semi-scientific experiment, I spent the last four weeks taking test cyp shots - 100mg per week with 250iu of Hcg twice weekly. Now, I'm switching back to Androgel, which I much prefer.

Two Questions:
1. What would you suggest as the best way to transition from one to the other? (I would be due to take a shot this Friday, which would be seven days from the last one.)

2. What Hcg Protocol would you suggest with Androgel 1.62%?
From what I have read, Dr. Crisler seems to be open to a wide variety of options.
I only have taken a total of 5 shots of Hcg to date (250iu). At this point my testes are just beginning to recover from 7 months of TRT without Hcg previous to these 5 shots. What would be a suggested way to really jump start them before I settle into a regular weekly pattern of Hcg injections?

Since I'm one of the "senior" members (in age) of this forum, I'm thinking that 250iu EOD would be good regular weekly protocol for me. I'm very eager to hear other suggestions.

[2Sox]

I've addressed this question on other threads but the short answer is that I respond to the gel better. I don't do well with the ups and downs of shots and the necessity of taking an ai along with them. For me, gels also address the issues of libido and ED much, much better.

[sandrat62]

I'm 50 yr old male who has been on Androgel and Hcg since Oct 2012. I am changing my protocol this April 1 to Cypinate and hcg because of convience. I really believe you need more than 4 weeks to get your body in rythem when using IM. While on Androgel I was doing 250iu of Hcg every other day with good results (BW confirms this).

[MRNJ1992]

Did the switch by my doctor as well. Just like you. On the andro felt nothing. No drive, no strength, nothing. Went back to shots and feel better than gel. Only complaint is water gain, Also on AI and HCG . For me -the gel is a waste. Good luck

[HRTstudent]

I would favor a simple transition. When it's time to take the next shot, just do half a dose of the gel for a few days then ramp up 1 pump or squirt each day until you get the full dose.

As far as I know the latest Dr. Crisler has said was that daily transdermal plus daily HCG was his favorite protocol.

[2Sox]

I would favor a simple transition. When it's time to take the next shot, just do half a dose of the gel for a few days then ramp up 1 pump or squirt each day until you get the full dose.

As far as I know the latest Dr. Crisler has said was that daily transdermal plus daily HCG was his favorite protocol.

Thank you, HRT. Your comments are very useful because they addressed my questions and concerns. And I think this is good advice to consider. I know how it feels to be overstimulated, and I don't want that to happen so a "simple transition", as you put it, would be wise. And, yes, Dr. Crisler clearly states that gels are, "the only way to go in my professional opinion....TD's are vastly superior to other modalities in TRT medicine."

Sandrat,
You may be right that 4 weeks isn't long enough to get into a rhythm. I've heard that from others on the forum. But I believe I've seen enough at this point. My health has not improved to my satisfaction. I'm feel like I'm treading water and I don't want to waste any more time. The only reason I went with injections was to make a comparison between transdermals and injections - and most importantly, to get treated with Hcg . This clinic was the only place that would do so. Since I am now purchasing Hcg from overseas, I will go back to Androgel - which made me feel like I was thirty years younger. Test cyp injections make me feel like an old man. I responded well to everything I have tried except injections; the patch, Testopel, gels all dialed me right up. It's common knowledge that men respond differently to different treatments. I believe I've found the protocol for me in gels.

Any other ideas out there?

[Ryanmcd]

I used Dr Crisler for a year and he had me on 100IU HCG a day with the gels and with the shots. You can adjust the HCG as you feel you need I played with 120 and 80 but like about 100 the best so far.

Also I like the gels better then the shots but with gels I would sometimes get 400 test level other times I got 900+ so that's why I changed.

[2Sox]

Also I like the gels better then the shots but with gels I would sometimes get 400 test level other times I got 900+ so that's why I changed.

Did you change because of the numbers or because you didn't feel good?

[Ryanmcd]

Did you change because of the numbers or because you didn't feel good?

I knew when I was on a "off" day because I wanted a nap in the afternoon and If I took 2 pumps of gel I did not need the nap. with the shots I do 120 a week and do not need the naps anymore. I am lucky because I work from home so my food / sleep are very consistent so I knew that's what it was.

Also my DHT was 3x the top of the range and did not feel too happy about that.

[2Sox]

I know what you mean about wanting a nap. Never happened to me on Androgel . Quite the opposite; I was zooming around all over the place!

[Ryanmcd]

I know what you mean about wanting a nap. Never happened to me on Androgel. Quite the opposite; I was zooming around all over the place!

Yep everyone is different, that's why I tried both still have some gels. I even did a hybrid of gels and shots too lol. If you have a good doc that cares about YOU not about the what if's then you can try different things and find one that works best for you.

Also a funny thing is Crisler said he likes the gels better but he takes shots lol.

[sirupate]

2Sox...do what you feel is best for you on shots versus gel. I liked gel better too, and may advocate a switch back to gel from the pellets at my urologist appointment next week. I'm sort of old too, and don't have any transfer worries with grown kids and an older wife. I do about 250iu of hCG 3 times per week. I feel better that way than 2X per week. I have never tried every day. That seems like a bit of a chore.

[FRDave]

I didn't start feeling the effects of injections till about week 8, but have no experience with the gels so I can't compare. However, I think you are jumping the gun a bit quick as the gels work instantly so once you made the switch, your test levels plumeted and have to slowly build back up, in which 4 weeks is just simply not enough time. Even people on cycle say they usually don't feel affects till week 6, and they taking 4-5x the amount of a TRT dose...

Just something to consider before giving up. Also may wan't to try sub-Q vs the IM if this is a contributing factor in switching back.

Best of luck regardless,
Dave

[Trific]

Also a funny thing is Crisler said he likes the gels better but he takes shots lol.

I think Crisler is a hyper-excreter of test so he might even pin every day or eod as he goes through a bunch.

[2Sox]

2Sox...do what you feel is best for you on shots versus gel. I liked gel better too, and may advocate a switch back to gel from the pellets at my urologist appointment next week. I'm sort of old too, and don't have any transfer worries with grown kids and an older wife. I do about 250iu of hCG 3 times per week. I feel better that way than 2X per week. I have never tried every day. That seems like a bit of a chore.

Sirupate,
Thanks for the encouragement. The pellets worked very well for me. Actually, too well. My urologist implanted the beginning dose for his practice - 8 pellets (800mg) - and I felt like an oversexed teenager. After three or four of them came out, I started to feel better. I supplemented with gel when my numbers began to drop too low.

I've got my Hcg . Will begin 250iu EOD and start Androgel on Saturday or Sunday at half dose for a few days.

[VTX1800]

When I was on Androgel 1.62% my erections were rock solid and morning wood was 7 days a week. My libido seemed to be better, now that I've switched to cyp injections, (on 5th week) my morning wood comes and goes. 4 maybe 5 days a week that is, and my erections aren't as solid. I'm still waiting to "feel good" again... I really thought I'd be feeling much better while on shots but Im not.
I agree that 4 weeks is definitely not long enough to fully experience positive results with injections. I would like to see your input and thoughts if you completed a 8 or 10 weeks of cyp and compared to your gel benefits. Thanks for the post, it's a highly debated subject.

[Rusty11]

Yea, it's a highly debated subject. So is "who is the best band", "what is your favorite color", etc... It's all about what's best for you, period. It doesn't matter what others think is best. I'm 51, apply testim/inject hCG each day and I feel good/t level and e2 levels are good. That's all I care about. Good luck with your decision.

[Trific]

Seems the gel usually makes more DHT so it can be better for the bedroom...but all too often the gel stops working for a guy and he's forced to switch.

[2Sox]

Seems the gel usually makes more DHT so it can be better for the bedroom...but all too often the gel stops working for a guy and he's forced to switch.

Yes, that's one of the reasons Dr. Crisler regards transdermals as the gold standard - how they so successfully address libido and ED issues. I've found this to be true for me. And the only place I have ever heard of gels loosing their effectiveness is on this forum. Can you offer the research to bear this out?

Rusty,
I completely agree. It's always only about what's best for you.

[VTX1800]

A highly debated subject can be anything, what works for me and doesn't work for you is debatable as well. Or is it??

[Trific]

Yes, that's one of the reasons Dr. Crisler regards transdermals as the gold standard - how they so successfully address libido and ED issues. I've found this to be true for me. And the only place I have every heard of gels loosing their effectiveness is on this forum. Can you offer the research to bear this out?

It's what I repeatly hear at other forums like Peak Testosterone and menshealth.

[2Sox]

When I was on Androgel 1.62% my erections were rock solid and morning wood was 7 days a week. My libido seemed to be better, now that I've switched to cyp injections, (on 5th week) my morning wood comes and goes. 4 maybe 5 days a week that is, and my erections aren't as solid. I'm still waiting to "feel good" again... I really thought I'd be feeling much better while on shots but Im not.
I agree that 4 weeks is definitely not long enough to fully experience positive results with injections. I would like to see your input and thoughts if you completed a 8 or 10 weeks of cyp and compared to your gel benefits. Thanks for the post, it's a highly debated subject.

The main reason I began shots was that the clinic administered Hcg along with them. At the time, I didn't know I could easily buy high quality, safe Hcg overseas. It was also to make a scientific comparison. Too short a time to really make an evaluation? That's probably true but I'm done with shots. At this point, I feel the same way you do. I didn't feel better at all. I actually felt worse. After an injection, I was wiped out and I'd have to go to sleep in the middle of the day. Three days later, I felt wiped out again and had to go to sleep mid-day, again! The PA who was my provider didn't even know the reason why this happened. Then I had to take Arimidex and it was all a guessing game about my E2 level until a few weeks later. For a few days after a shot I felt edgy, impatient and got pissed off at nothing. I'd even off by day five, but that's no life. A person takes TRT to feel better and it just wasn't happening for me.

My reaction to gels was just about the same as yours PLUS my energy level was incredible, I felt happy and my mood was steady. Can't argue with success.

If injections were the only way to get TRT, end of debate, I'd take the shots and be patient. But we're fortunate to have other options. And God knows what will happen in the future with newer and better delivery systems. I'll bet within the next five years this debate will be considered quaint!

[2Sox]

I didn't start feeling the effects of injections till about week 8, but have no experience with the gels so I can't compare. However, I think you are jumping the gun a bit quick as the gels work instantly so once you made the switch, your test levels plumeted and have to slowly build back up, in which 4 weeks is just simply not enough time. Even people on cycle say they usually don't feel affects till week 6, and they taking 4-5x the amount of a TRT dose...

Just something to consider before giving up. Also may wan't to try sub-Q vs the IM if this is a contributing factor in switching back.

Best of luck regardless,
Dave

FR,
I appreciate your feedback. Sorry I missed your post. You make a good point about the almost instantaneous effects of transdermals and the delayed effects of injections. It is definitely something to take under advisement, as I posted previously. As I said, if shot's were the only way to go, I'd be there in a heartbeat.

Can you tell me what you felt at that week 8 when you began to feel the effects? I'm interested in knowing the things you felt. Thanks.

[Trific]

Here's an excert from a Peak thread:

Sure. Remember: we get a biased view against Androgel on here, because no one writes in with their success story and we've probably had 15 people write in with "Androgel failure". So, again, the key thing in my mind at least is to get tested soon afterward so that you're not walking around for months with issues.

At menshealth he commonly talks about how a guy's skin changes/becomes tougher and it becomes that the test stops being absorbed into the body.
I would use it just as long as you can if you like it though...

[VTX1800]

Sox, I respect your feedback. I'm happy that your happy with your TRT. And to be 100% If I don't start feeling better by. Week 12 then (obviously depends how BW turns out) then I'm definitely going back to my androgel with hcg . I can relate to 100% of what your saying.

[2Sox]

Here's an excert from a Peak thread:


At menshealth he commonly talks about how a guy's skin changes/becomes tougher and it becomes that the test stops being absorbed into the body.
I would use it just as long as you can if you like it though...

Anecdotal findings are useful, but not as useful as scientific research and data. Yes, even Dr. Crisler has spoken about the wastefulness of using bare hands to spread on gel - because the skin on our hands are very thick, the gel pools there and very little penetrates. But it's common knowledge that the entire skin surface of our body regenerates itself in about 27 days. Even tough skin becomes smooth if given a chance to heal and regenerate itself. We all know callouses heal if we stop irritation at the area. I'd like to see the science that explains how gels toughen skin. I don't think it very likely.

[Trific]

I'd like to see the science that explains how gels toughen skin. I don't think it very likely.

You intend to find out

[2Sox]

You intend to find out

Is this a question or a statement? ;-)

[Trific]

Is this a question or a statement? ;-)

Statement

[2Sox]

My search on "Androgel side effects" so far has turned up nothing related to skin thickening or toughening. I don't question the sincerity of people and their reactions to Androgel, but I do question bullshite explanations that have no basis in science. I'll keep searching.......

Gonna take my dogs out for a walk. See you later.

[2Sox]

So, I'm still open to suggestions as to the best way to transition from shots to gel.. I'd love to hear them.

[Trific]

Heck, you don't even need to wait till your next pin is due, just switch to androgel when you damn well please.

[DanMan250]

As a short term semi-scientific experiment, I spent the last four weeks taking test cyp shots - 100mg per week with 250iu of Hcg twice weekly. Now, I'm switching back to Androgel , which I much prefer.

Two Questions:
1. What would you suggest as the best way to transition from one to the other? (I would be due to take a shot this Friday, which would be seven days from the last one.)

2. What Hcg Protocol would you suggest with Androgel 1.62%?
From what I have read, Dr. Crisler seems to be open to a wide variety of options.
I only have taken a total of 5 shots of Hcg to date (250iu). At this point my testes are just beginning to recover from 7 months of TRT without Hcg previous to these 5 shots. What would be a suggested way to really jump start them before I settle into a regular weekly pattern of Hcg injections?

Since I'm one of the "senior" members (in age) of this forum, I'm thinking that 250iu EOD would be good regular weekly protocol for me. I'm very eager to hear other suggestions.

100mg test cyp per week with a 250iu shot the day before and sometimes the day of the test shot was the Dr Crisler's old protocol. His revised protocol is 40-50mg test cyp every 3 days with a shot of HCG the day before. Most guys feel a lot better injecting test cyp twice a week instead of once a week, so your failure with shots may have been due to the protocol you were using, not with shots per se.
I've come across a lot of guys who are injecting as little as 30mg test every 3 days (no HCG) and feeling better than ever on that protocol.
Although HCG has its benefits as mentioned here many times before, you do have to be careful that E2 levels don't go too high.

[HRTstudent]

I think Crisler is a hyper-excreter of test so he might even pin every day or eod as he goes through a bunch.

This is true.

I'm not sure what defines a "hyper excreter" but personally, the easiest way to get a rough idea of who might do poorly on gels is someone who has very low SHBG. SHBG extends the life of testosterone in the body... so it reasons that if it is too low then a man might get a quick peak and rapid dropoff, much more than an average or higher SHBG male.

[Trific]

100mg test cyp per week with a 250iu shot the day before and sometimes the day of the test shot was the Dr Crisler's old protocol. His revised protocol is 40-50mg test cyp every 3 days with a shot of HCG the day before. Most guys feel a lot better injecting test cyp twice a week instead of once a week, so your failure with shots may have been due to the protocol you were using, not with shots per se.
I've come across a lot of guys who are injecting as little as 30mg test every 3 days (no HCG) and feeling better than ever on that protocol.
Although HCG has its benefits as mentioned here many times before, you do have to be careful that E2 levels don't go too high.

Dan, 2SOX didn't really fail with the pins...it's more that he had been previously spoiled by the fast action and strong libido of the DHT of the gel and is now anxious to get back to it and if he had just found a way to get HCG earlier he would not have left the gel.

[raym]

This is true.

I'm not sure what defines a "hyper excreter" but personally, the easiest way to get a rough idea of who might do poorly on gels is someone who has very low SHBG. SHBG extends the life of testosterone in the body... so it reasons that if it is too low then a man might get a quick peak and rapid dropoff, much more than an average or higher SHBG male.

Am curious how you would classify a low SHBG. Still in "range" but towards the bottom of the range or ??

Ray

[2Sox]

Dan, 2SOX didn't really fail with the pins...it's more that he had been previously spoiled by the fast action and strong libido of the DHT of the gel and is now anxious to get back to it and if he had just found a way to get HCG earlier he would not have left the gel.

Couldn't have said it better myself. In addition to that, the clinic costs me $210 a month. My copay for Androgel with the discount card is $40 a month. Hcg and pin supplies are another $10+ a month. Although it hasn't been my main consideration, cost is also a factor.

[dreadnok89]

Is napping a huge sign? I run heavy machinery and run high all day, staying alert and being physical. When i get home i nap for 20 min. Then i hit the gym. Or do you mean like a dead tired where you dread anything physical

[Ryanmcd]

Is napping a huge sign? I run heavy machinery and run high all day, staying alert and being physical. When i get home i nap for 20 min. Then i hit the gym. Or do you mean like a dead tired where you dread anything physical

For me I work from home I would be on a call and fall asleep in my chair lol, that's not good to snore on the phone. I also think Diet is over looked a lot as well and I would say that diet / sleep make a bigger diff then just the test. Get all 3 and your doing well.