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    he was clueless

    saw the endo that is affiliated with my primary care doc. He wentt o a top rated american medical school, is young, is a male.....yeah

    called them up ahead of time to make sure he treats young men with low t.....yup

    I get there and they said 2 nurses in, then a medical student, and finally the doctor came in trying to get me to visit with him and 2 more medical students. I said i just wanted to talk to him....no harm....

    so he spent a long time with me..was a nice guy..but he was clueless. he didnt know anything about hcg ..and told me he's not a reproductive endocronologist...wtf?
    He told me he doesnt monitor estrogen because too low of estrogen means you're a man, and too high is only a concern for bodybuilders..........
    told me aromatase inhibs are not proven safe because there are no long term studies.

    Told me he doesnt think testosterone is my issue and i should find out what's wrong. I said to him, that's why im there, and i wanted him to check my thyroid pituitary, etc. He claimed my past bloodwork was fine, and tsh is good enough for thyroid, and the new endocrine range for tsh being no more than 3 is only expert opinion without evidence. Said my numbers were beautiful and noone has a tsh of over 4 usually..so 3 might be too low.

    wouldnt order me any bloodwork...oh well, i gave him the benefit of the doubt. I asked him what about a cortisol test, what abbot reverse t3..he kept telling me how inaccurate all blood work is and that even if something is wrong, all it does is show that i am sick, but it wont tell me what's wrong. He said reverse t3 shows im sick but doesnt mean my thyroid is bad...just that i have an underlying illness. He said this about everything...said the results are reflective of illness, not just common sense pathologies like adrenals.

    he said there was no benefit to doing testosterone and oly harm..and that patients of his in the upper 200s or 300s show no improvement.

    no shit..u dont give hcg or monitor estradiol
    Last edited by powerlifterty16; 07-08-2013 at 06:58 PM.

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    welcome to the club... I am on doctor number 5
    and people wonder why some take the risk and self medicate
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    Quote Originally Posted by trikydik View Post
    welcome to the club... I am on doctor number 5
    and people wonder why some take the risk and self medicate
    lol ive been in the club for 5 years

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    My primary is not on the cutting edge with hcg but wow he sure sounds good right now. Waiting for my new insurance card to see another Doc who was recommended and is up with hcg and test trt.

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    If I were younger I'd go to medical school and specialize in men's hrt. I'd make a killing. Ok, I'd be well off... lol. I'm on doc # 3 myself. It amazes me how much they don't even know they don't know. Actually, it scare me.

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    im scared to come off the hcg (my last shot is the 15th)

    what if im lh suppressed and my t goes to 0...man

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    Definitely important to take an active role in your health. It would be a mistake to blindly follow. Famous Ronald Reagan quote, "Trust but verify" fits well here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brazensol View Post
    If I were younger I'd go to medical school and specialize in men's hrt. I'd make a killing. Ok, I'd be well off... lol. I'm on doc # 3 myself. It amazes me how much they don't even know they don't know. Actually, it scare me.
    You would think that by now they would throw in a week of "Basic Hormone Education" while in med school.........but no.
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    I still don't get hcg , I get nothing from it.

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    my last doctor said absolutely not.... no HCG will not effect your quality of life as you are not trying to have kids....

    Now reading on the forum here, it is pretty split 50-50 on whether HRT actually needs HcG

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    Quote Originally Posted by trikydik View Post
    my last doctor said absolutely not.... no HCG will not effect your quality of life as you are not trying to have kids....

    Now reading on the forum here, it is pretty split 50-50 on whether HRT actually needs HcG
    Well, you've learned your doc's knowledge is limited when it comes to HCG so he's dismissive of it. I'm sure he'll change his mind when his time comes for TRT and his boys are starting to fade away.
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    Quote Originally Posted by trikydik View Post
    my last doctor said absolutely not.... no HCG will not effect your quality of life as you are not trying to have kids....

    Now reading on the forum here, it is pretty split 50-50 on whether HRT actually needs HcG
    My endo said the same thing. Unfortunately for him, my nuts and I have a close relationship. They said, "we need hcg", so I was inclined to take their advice.

    Edit: Hang in there, PL
    What's your next move once the 6 week hcg therapy is up?
    Last edited by Rusty11; 07-09-2013 at 03:31 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by powerlifterty16 View Post
    he said there was no benefit to doing testosterone and oly harm..and that patients of his in the upper 200s or 300s show no improvement
    I tested at 277 when I was diagnosed low T and I'm now sitting upper 700s/low 800s and feel great.

    After my diagnosis, I searched all over for a good doc... went to a urologist, called a bunch of endos and other specialists (including fertility yadda yadda). At best I found docs who were about 50% of the way there, and that was my urologist.

    In the end, my search ended at a local GP who was a few blocks away... and I don't even see the GP, I see a female PA who provides the best medical care I have ever had in my life and is well versed backwards and forwards on TRT-related issues. I bring this up to say don't rule out your standard GP!!! Coincidentally, all the shitty docs were men, too!

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    Quote Originally Posted by kelkel View Post
    Well, you've learned your doc's knowledge is limited when it comes to HCG so he's dismissive of it. I'm sure he'll change his mind when his time comes for TRT and his boys are starting to fade away.
    Makes worlds of difference in terms of comfort especially when working out.

    However, I don't think it is just the nuts, although I'm glad to have them back to a large degree and to have a scrotum again. I actually *feel* much better on hCG , have even more energy, stronger libido, etc. This could be a part of the "getting dialed in" process for me, but I've gotta think that a shutdown of LH/FSH has some peripheral effects on the body beyond testosterone production. hCG is not the same thing as LH/FSH, but it imitates some of that to some degree. I can 100% say I have noticeably increased sense of well-being on hCG.

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    here is a dumb question concerning Hcg . The write up here on the forum states that gyno is a definite side effect of taking this. It seems counter intuitive.... you take hcg during pct normally to counteract gyno....

    "Since HCG is used to stimulate testosterone production, side effects can be the same as those associated with AAS, although gyno may be more common."

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    You're not going to take enough HCG to cause gyno issues.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZenFitness View Post
    Makes worlds of difference in terms of comfort especially when working out.

    However, I don't think it is just the nuts, although I'm glad to have them back to a large degree and to have a scrotum again. I actually *feel* much better on hCG, have even more energy, stronger libido, etc. This could be a part of the "getting dialed in" process for me, but I've gotta think that a shutdown of LH/FSH has some peripheral effects on the body beyond testosterone production. hCG is not the same thing as LH/FSH, but it imitates some of that to some degree. I can 100% say I have noticeably increased sense of well-being on hCG.
    Ditto

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZenFitness View Post
    I tested at 277 when I was diagnosed low T and I'm now sitting upper 700s/low 800s and feel great.

    After my diagnosis, I searched all over for a good doc... went to a urologist, called a bunch of endos and other specialists (including fertility yadda yadda). At best I found docs who were about 50% of the way there, and that was my urologist.

    In the end, my search ended at a local GP who was a few blocks away... and I don't even see the GP, I see a female PA who provides the best medical care I have ever had in my life and is well versed backwards and forwards on TRT-related issues. I bring this up to say don't rule out your standard GP!!! Coincidentally, all the shitty docs were men, too!
    that's awesome that your gp is good. I used to have a pretty good gp. She ordered me tons of testing including urine cortisol tests. She even talked about androgel at one time...although i dont know if she would have followed through with it....and at that time my t was like 470. I didnt want androgel though.

    rusty, im not 100 percent sure what my next move is. Im really curious what my blood test shows. I am terrified to stop the hcg though....im scared i have no lh anymore and il have no testosterone when coming off haha. I was thinking of staying on for one more week and tapering the dose...but i dont think that's wise since low t mike said the restart is for 6 weeks.

    after the 6 weeks ill prob wait about one week, get some base blood work, and then i have another endo appt in august(first week). Depending how that goes, ill either get more blood work middle of august to see if my levels changed, and depending where my level is, ill go back to the urologist who prescribed me the hcg.

    i havent noticed 1000s of changes on the hcg, but i have noticed my migraines are pretty much gone, my workouts have without a doubt improved. I have been very lazy lately, havent been lifting as much, havent been eating right, but my workouts have been going better. I hit prs every workout now. I also notice im a little more assertive.

    im upset though that im still very lazy, still have working memory issues, and still dont have massive hair growth. I have a few hairs on my chest but never got the bush my dad has lol...or back hair...not that i want that either as both are a pain

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    Quote Originally Posted by kelkel View Post
    You're not going to take enough HCG to cause gyno issues.
    i was worried about this too but i appear not to have any gyno..then again my e was 9ish when starting.

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    ZenFitness is offline Associate Member
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    Hey powerlifterty16, I don't know all your issues or current situation, but an E2 of 9 probably makes you feel at least 50% like ass. Too low, I've been there.

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    zen you may be right, but i dont think it's my issue considering my t is also low. Either way, i bet if i got on trt it would increase,

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    Quote Originally Posted by trikydik View Post
    here is a dumb question concerning Hcg . The write up here on the forum states that gyno is a definite side effect of taking this. It seems counter intuitive.... you take hcg during pct normally to counteract gyno....

    "Since HCG is used to stimulate testosterone production, side effects can be the same as those associated with AAS, although gyno may be more common."
    you are suppose to take HCG during the cycle, not usually during PCT and you don't take it to counteract gyno (it increases E2[as well as test])

    Hcg mimics LH, just ask professor Kel.....there are LH receptors throughout the body so a guy could even be primary and still reap benefits from HCG........guys it's just personal preference....I'm not you so I sure as hell shouldn't tell you what you want.........I think anyone who is taking exogenous test should read the HCG sticky and consider taking HCG on a test drive and see if it's worth it to them

    the time, expense, being a pin cushion more often........make your own choice!

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    Quote Originally Posted by powerlifterty16 View Post
    zen you may be right, but i dont think it's my issue considering my t is also low. Either way, i bet if i got on trt it would increase,
    Your E2 probably already increased from HCG and it was probably a good thing.

    I'd do your blood draw like 48 hours after your last HCG pin because it'd be neat to see how high HCG pushed up your TT.

    The TT test a month or so after your last HCG pin is the important one because it will show how your TT is holding up so far.

    Maybe you should load your excess HCG into your common individual doses in syringes and put them into a tupperware and put into the freezer in case you want to continue it after your last TT test. It's only the expense of some syringes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by powerlifterty16 View Post
    saw the endo that is affiliated with my primary care doc. He wentt o a top rated american medical school, is young, is a male.....yeah

    ...
    Wow, man that sucks. I've been there. I know it's devastating. Especially because you did some homework... if you were okay with it, please post his name so others might avoid him. I know I finally found a decent (not great) doctor through google.

    Sorry to hear this happened to you... the good news is that there is still hope.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HRTstudent View Post
    Wow, man that sucks. I've been there. I know it's devastating. Especially because you did some homework... if you were okay with it, please post his name so others might avoid him. I know I finally found a decent (not great) doctor through google.

    Sorry to hear this happened to you... the good news is that there is still hope.
    he was a nice guy and admitted when he didnt know things, and said i should see other doctors, but still was not knowledgable..and it's so annoying hearing the nurses say he so smart...this isnt the first time ive ben told that about an endo who turned out not to be...

    the med student stuff was annoying too, and he didnt even see us until 4;45 or 5 and out apt was 3;45. It also was annoying he sat there while i told him my history for an hour and he didnt run one single test.

    so you switched your doc? I thought you were happy with him?..also i was wondering are you in medical school?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trific View Post
    Your E2 probably already increased from HCG and it was probably a good thing.

    I'd do your blood draw like 48 hours after your last HCG pin because it'd be neat to see how high HCG pushed up your TT.

    The TT test a month or so after your last HCG pin is the important one because it will show how your TT is holding up so far.

    Maybe you should load your excess HCG into your common individual doses in syringes and put them into a tupperware and put into the freezer in case you want to continue it after your last TT test. It's only the expense of some syringes.
    i guess i can load some in syringes. i dont know how much id use in the future, so i guess i can load 250-300 in the syringes.

    i have around 80 syringes left lol.
    anabolic doc said to wait about a week and low t mike said the same, although im confused because they both said the half life of hcg is 24 hours..and anabolic doc said it'd take a week to leave my system. I thought half life meant half of it was out of your system..so wouldnt it all be out by 48 hours?
    Ill prob get blood drawn on the 20th to be safe.

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    highpsi is offline Junior Member
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    Had a fill in old doctor for my blood work. Got the everyone's test goes down eventually, you lift weights huh? Fsh and lh, they must have done a female panel last time. Had to tell him that no injections once a month are not normal and neither is a test level in the 200s for someone under 40. Thank god it was just for follow up blood work. Normal doctor was busy.

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    As I said in another one of your threads, in my experience endocrinologist are often some of the worst doctors on earth when it comes to TRT. I know that sounds strange since they're hormone doctors, but when we consider another factor it's not that strange at all. Regardless of where you go to medical school in the U.S., even if it's a top rated medical school like you mentioned, you're not going to be educated abundantly on TRT. Good TRT physicians in the U.S. are only good because they make a point to educate themselves after medical school.

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    Quote Originally Posted by powerlifterty16 View Post
    he was a nice guy and admitted when he didnt know things, and said i should see other doctors, but still was not knowledgable..and it's so annoying hearing the nurses say he so smart...this isnt the first time ive ben told that about an endo who turned out not to be...

    the med student stuff was annoying too, and he didnt even see us until 4;45 or 5 and out apt was 3;45. It also was annoying he sat there while i told him my history for an hour and he didnt run one single test.

    so you switched your doc? I thought you were happy with him?..also i was wondering are you in medical school?
    I know how you feel about the "good" feedback stuff... I was on that same road. "oh he's a really good doctor! he treats my family member etc etc" then you get there and they drop some bomb on you like estrogen isn't a concern for men...


    I didn't switch my doc for a while. I'm satisfied I suppose you would say with my doctor... but he's not perfect and I don't like "thinking" I know more about some topics than he does lol. whether or not that's true, whatever, but sometimes I think it...

    I'm not in medical school... fortunately I got off that boat a while ago otherwise maybe I would believe all of us are a bunch of malingerers!


    the good news is, eventually you will find a good doctor... it got to the point where I was trying to see what it might cost to go out of the state and maybe fly to a proven expert like Dr Mariano. it's not a bad idea if you're striking out and growing too frustrated or beaten down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Metalject View Post
    As I said in another one of your threads, in my experience endocrinologist are often some of the worst doctors on earth when it comes to TRT. I know that sounds strange since they're hormone doctors, but when we consider another factor it's not that strange at all. Regardless of where you go to medical school in the U.S., even if it's a top rated medical school like you mentioned, you're not going to be educated abundantly on TRT. Good TRT physicians in the U.S. are only good because they make a point to educate themselves after medical school.
    agreed. I don't recommend endo's as a general rule.

    endocrinologists in the US are diabetes doctors and then synthroid docs... I mean thyroid docs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HRTstudent View Post
    agreed. I don't recommend endo's as a general rule.

    endocrinologists in the US are diabetes doctors and then synthroid docs... I mean thyroid docs.
    HA! That one actually made me laugh!

    When you need TRT it does not matter what type of doctor the doctor is. If he's an orthopedist and has taken it upon himself to become educated on TRT, I'll pick him all day long. As for endocrinologist, most of them will not do this as they already consider themselves experts on TRT. I'm not saying all of them but I'd say the majority.

    One of the better TRT docs I ever met was a family doctor for 20yrs. Just a basic regular doctor who people see for their yearly physical, when they get to feeling a little sick or any of the other regular life occurrences. When I met him he was now focused on hormones and I asked him what made him make the change. He said after his daughter was diagnosed with diabetes he become more interested in hormones. He began digging and educating himself for the next few years and he said in the end he realized he had wasted 20yrs practicing medicine. This is the kind of doctor you want to find.

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    its not even that this guy didnt know much about trt, it's just like, what the hell was he doing in his 4 years at washington med school, plus the endocrinology residency? he didnt even know estrogen strengthens bones, and told me the lower the better. He also told me that my dad's prolactin of <.01 was fine...im still not sure on that though heard too low prolactin might cause issues, but overall i dont think it's that bad.

    His answers on thyroid sucked too. Told me the new tsh scale was only expert opinion and not evidence based and that tsh was good enough for thyroid. He did offer to write a script for a free t4 reading but i told him forget it since he wouldnt do free t3 even.

    one thing he did say, that im curious about is that high iron is a contraindication for trt? I looked at an old iron lab from many years ago and the scale ended at 160 and mine was 182..although my ferritin was at the lower end of the range(maybe 20 points higher than the bottom number) Would this be a contraindication?

    I knew i was in trouble when his med student told me that trt makes the prostate swell.

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    also my dad asked him if it would be worth it to make an appt with him for his diabetis instead of continuing with his gp...and all the endo said was that he would be more aggressiv with his diabetis and give him insulin (which my dad is trying to avoid)...so even for diabetis they dont know anything more than the typical boneheaded gp.

    My problem is im too nice and dont speak up for myself. The endo told me varicoceles dont effect t levels, and then i showed him an article stating the contrary but i felt bad and kept apologizing and saying ill trust him lol

    endo also said there is no link b/w diabetis and test levels and said only link is that the low t reflects the underlying pathology and is a product of it.

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    My doctor weights like 90 lbs and is a "runner." The only advice he's given me is to take sugar packet things for energy....

    He will do bloodwork for me though and I've been slowly trying to get myself educated. I've also been researching other doctors in the area, including some that specialize in anti-aging. We'll see what happens!

    I did get a little lucky one time when I went in for an injury to urgent care and got this bodybuilder looking doctor. He knew a lot about sports medicine and I get he was on something. I wish I could remember his name!

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    lol these drs offices are so hard to deal with. Just called the endo im seeing in august to see if she's a reproductive endo, and the woman at the front has a thick accent and was like ''errr im not sure she deals with all glands''
    I asked if they do test replacement she claims yes...i then asked if she knows what hcg is she claims yes but answered funny.

    I'm glad im not paying for insurance anymore....i remember the days of 50 dollar copays going down the drain. it's times like these that make me never want to get real insurance lol

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    powerlifterty16, I still wouldn't rule out local GP docs. You might check in with a few. Endos were less than useless in my search.

    Also, re:diabetes, your dad may want to watch Forks Over Knives and consider plant-based diets. I have heard such a diet is successful in combating diabetes.
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    i think my best bet is the urologist who prescribed me hcg , although he pretty much hinted that trt was not for me. If my levels dont improve on the hcg though ,i ll try to push for it.
    I want to try trt anyway though, according to crisler, most people feel worlds better on trt than hcg.

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    I thought half life meant half of it was out of your system..so wouldnt it all be out by 48 hours?
    Let's say you took 300iu today, in 24 hrs (based on a 24hr half life) there would then be 150, another 24 hrs there would be 75, another 24 hrs there would be 37.5 another 24 hrs there would be 18.75 left......

    I heard that a doc somewhere took all of his male patients that were diabetic and prescribed TRT for them and all of those guys were able to get off their insulin ..... so maybe your Dad should get on TRT?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trific View Post
    Let's say you took 300iu today, in 24 hrs (based on a 24hr half life) there would then be 150, another 24 hrs there would be 75, another 24 hrs there would be 37.5 another 24 hrs there would be 18.75 left......

    I heard that a doc somewhere took all of his male patients that were diabetic and prescribed TRT for them and all of those guys were able to get off their insulin..... so maybe your Dad should get on TRT?
    thanks for explaining that..i have been tryinmg to get my dad on trt, and told him it would help his diabetis, but all these ****ing drs who are clueless keep contradicting me.....luckily i was able to show my dad how this guy didnt even know what hcg was..discrediting him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Metalject View Post
    HA! That one actually made me laugh!

    When you need TRT it does not matter what type of doctor the doctor is. If he's an orthopedist and has taken it upon himself to become educated on TRT, I'll pick him all day long. As for endocrinologist, most of them will not do this as they already consider themselves experts on TRT. I'm not saying all of them but I'd say the majority.

    One of the better TRT docs I ever met was a family doctor for 20yrs. Just a basic regular doctor who people see for their yearly physical, when they get to feeling a little sick or any of the other regular life occurrences. When I met him he was now focused on hormones and I asked him what made him make the change. He said after his daughter was diagnosed with diabetes he become more interested in hormones. He began digging and educating himself for the next few years and he said in the end he realized he had wasted 20yrs practicing medicine. This is the kind of doctor you want to find.
    I went through the same problem with the Endo doc, had to go through two of them. the first was a real wanker, prescribed me Androgel , 5 pumps on each leg, end up getting a rash. When I told him about it he mentioned that there was no way I could get a rash. Got a new Endo and found out I suffered from hypothyroidism, the plus was the new doc handled my test concerns.

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