Great Ways to Lose your TRT

[Low Testosterone]

The following are great ways to make sure your doctor no longer offers you treatment.

1. Increasing your dose because you decide to increase your dose. This is an all but guaranteed way to have your doctor drop you.

2. Keeping inline with the first one, not decreasing your dose when your doctor ask you to.

3. Telling your doctor that you read this or that about TRT on a message board and asking the doctor to treat you based on what you read on a message board.

4. Demanding a certain dose or medication.

5. Losing or breaking bottles of testosterone on a regular basis. Things do happen, but if they're happening on a regular basis the doctor will assume the patient is lying and rightfully so.

6. Starting therapy, levels not moving or even going down and refusing to have other things looked at. The doctor will assume you are stock piling testosterone, and you probably are.

7. Running out of testosterone early. Many doctors will be understanding if this happens once if the patient is new to therapy. However, if we're talking about running out in half the time if not more, i.e. 10wks for a 20wk RX you may lose your treatment. If it happens twice, you will definitely lose your treatment.

8. Being disrespectful to your doctor. You may very well be highly informed on TRT, but you're still not the doctor. If you'd like to be, apply to med school.

9. Calling or messaging your doctor constantly with questions. It's hard for many to understand but it's highly unlikely you're your doctor's only patient. Eventually, you will become a pain to the doctor. Questions are fine, but there is no reason anyone should have constant questions. Yes, you are paying for treatment, but you have to use a little reason. If you would like your doctor to be available to answer questions for you around the clock non-stop, you'll probably need to be willing to pay your doctor an enormous amount of money.

10. Keeping inline with number 9, be patient when trying to get ahold of your doctor. Again, you are not the doctor's only patient. They may not call you back the very day you leave a message. Keep in mind we're talking about TRT, it's probably not an emergency and if it is an emergency call 911. Harassing your doctor, calling the office repeatedly all day or sending email after email is a great way to annoy your doctor. When a doctor has hundreds and hundreds of patients, is being asked questions by many and still has to see people for appointments, this takes time. Show patience and respect. Your doctor will get back to you.

[kelkel]

The following are great ways to make sure your doctor no longer offers you treatment.


8. Being disrespectful to your doctor. You may very well be highly informed on TRT, but you're still not the doctor. If you'd like to be, apply to med school.

Totally agree, especially with #8. Austin brought this up, today actually, that there is just too much "doctor bashing" and name calling of doctors here lately and it needs to stop. No one is perfect in "any" profession and if your provider is not helping you or treating you as expected then make a change. They are still doctors and very educated people, helping patients on a daily basis. We see them for a reason. I'd be lost without mine and the relationship we've developed.

Remember, TRT is still a really new science and many doc's are in a learning curve, just as we are.

[Beethoven]

Agreed kel, I'm from the the thought of if you don't like the service, find another one. Free country, and you're free to find the one that works for you.

[bass]

yes of course assuming your are working with a knowledgeable TRT doc, even if he/she is not I'd simply leave politely and look for a new one. my doc recognizes my knowledge and she works with me, not all docs are the same, some have egos and some are willing to listen and in fact lean from their patients... within reason of course. the bottom line is al your points are right on, don't be rude and don't play games.

[kelkel]

Agreed kel, I'm from the the thought of if you don't like the service, find another one. Free country, and you're free to find the one that works for you.

Exactly. And that goes for ALL professions. I agree with every point LT made but #8 sticks with me. I think I'm pretty decent with this stuff but no where near what a good doc knows. My doctor-patient relationship is extremely important to me.

[rt12008]

I have heard it said that how we treat other people, regardless of the situation, says more about who we are as a person than how we have been treated.

99.99% of the time we can respectfully disagree.

I like this post.

[austinite]

Totally agree, especially with #8. Austin brought this up, today actually, that there is just too much "doctor bashing" and name calling of doctors here lately and it needs to stop. No one is perfect in "any" profession and if your provider is not helping you or treating you as expected then make a change. They are still doctors and very educated people, helping patients on a daily basis. We see them for a reason. I'd be lost without mine and the relationship we've developed.

Remember, TRT is still a really new science and many doc's are in a learning curve, just as we are.

Yep, love # 8. This will be good for the forum. No more name calling at doctors. Not a good idea and certainly deters potential members. This will need to be a group effort on everyone's part.

Great post, Low T.

[Beethoven]

yes of course assuming your are working with a knowledgeable TRT doc, even if he/she is not I'd simply leave politely and look for a new one. my doc recognizes my knowledge and she works with me, not all docs are the same, some have egos and some are willing to listen and in fact lean from their patients... within reason of course. the bottom line is al your points are right on, don't be rude and don't play games.

It is still important to be educated so you know when you've found the right one. It was because of everything I've learned on this site that helped me know when I did find the right one. And there was no ego.

[teezer33]

Exactly. And that goes for ALL professions. I agree with every point LT made but #8 sticks with me. I think I'm pretty decent with this stuff but no where near what a good doc knows. My doctor-patient relationship is extremely important to me.

There is a saying I stick to, and it seems to work quite well. Don't bite the hand that feeds you!

[bass]

It is still important to be educated so you know when you've found the right one. It was because of everything I've learned on this site that helped me know when I did find the right one. And there was no ego.

I am glad you learned for this forum and glad you found a doc with no ego, but it doesn't mean egotistical doctors don't exist! in my opinion, and only my opinion, if a doctor administer medication that has no knowledge how it works is criminal. you are trusting your doc to fix you not tell you take one shot a month and you're good to go. just because they have the education it doesn't mean you can't question them, or at least point out what you know about half life and so forth.

again I am in agreement with LT's points, you have to be honest and respectful to your doc, but it doesn't mean you have to take their ill advice just because they went to medical school. how many wrong legs were amputated, how many wrong teeth were pulled LOL! it happened to me because I trusted what my X dentist was telling me, then had to go back again and pull the tooth I was complaining about in the first place

[FONZY007]

Great read, my endo was an idiot, my test was staying in the high 200 low 300 range and I had to do something!!

Shit at one point, I broke out with acne he was like take 100mg once every 3-4 weeks!!

[Low Testosterone]

It is still important to be educated so you know when you've found the right one. It was because of everything I've learned on this site that helped me know when I did find the right one. And there was no ego.

It's a fine line. It's very easy to think you are well-educated on TRT or anything for that matter. There are plenty of bad doctors out there that have no idea what they're doing when it comes to testosterone , but I'd be willing to bet there are plenty of people who have found a great doctor but walked away because they were more or less educated beyond their intelligence.

In my opinion, this is the best example of what I'm talking about. There's another thread and I've seen this argued here a few times about the need for AI's. Some reasonably smart people refuse to believe that some men will not need an AI when on TRT. If they happen to be one of those men and they go to a doctor that understands TRT, when the doctor doesn't prescribe an AI to them they will either leave the doctor or buy it themselves completely messing up their hormone levels. I hope this makes sense.

[powerlifterty16]

Agreed kel, I'm from the the thought of if you don't like the service, find another one. Free country, and you're free to find the one that works for you.

problem is it gets frustrating when you do that MANY times and still are left without help...but I agree the doc bashing thing gets old, and that's why I said **** it and am scheduled to see shippen pretty soon. Doing the same thing and expecting different results is insane

In reference to the op, I do think it is not as patient friendly as it could be. If a patient feels they are not getting the right protocol, the op basically says to shut up and take it or start the process for a new dr over...there is nothing wrong with suggesting a new protocol=(

[FONZY007]

It's a fine line. It's very easy to think you are well-educated on TRT or anything for that matter. There are plenty of bad doctors out there that have no idea what they're doing when it comes to testosterone , but I'd be willing to bet there are plenty of people who have found a great doctor but walked away because they were more or less educated beyond their intelligence.

In my opinion, this is the best example of what I'm talking about. There's another thread and I've seen this argued here a few times about the need for AI's. Some reasonably smart people refuse to believe that some men will not need an AI when on TRT. If they happen to be one of those men and they go to a doctor that understands TRT, when the doctor doesn't prescribe an AI to them they will either leave the doctor or buy it themselves completely messing up their hormone levels. I hope this makes sense.

My doc don't prescribe an AI, I got it on my own, but with BW showing I have elevated E2 levels.

I had a talk to him about this the last time I seen him he was like just come back in Halloween week and we will do BW..

But again this is my GP, I'm no longer with the endo..

[austinite]

problem is it gets frustrating when you do that MANY times and still are left without help...but I agree the doc bashing thing gets old, and that's why I said **** it and am scheduled to see shippen pretty soon. Doing the same thing and expecting different results is insane

In reference to the op, I do think it is not as patient friendly as it could be. If a patient feels they are not getting the right protocol, the op basically says to shut up and take it or start the process for a new dr over...there is nothing wrong with suggesting a new protocol=(

Can you point me to that? I might not be reading it correctly, but I see nowhere that it says to shut up and take it.

[Low Testosterone]

problem is it gets frustrating when you do that MANY times and still are left without help...but I agree the doc bashing thing gets old, and that's why I said **** it and am scheduled to see shippen pretty soon. Doing the same thing and expecting different results is insane

In reference to the op, I do think it is not as patient friendly as it could be. If a patient feels they are not getting the right protocol, the op basically says to shut up and take it or start the process for a new dr over...there is nothing wrong with suggesting a new protocol=(

The problem is the patient may feel they're not getting the right protocol, but that goes back to #8:
Being disrespectful to your doctor. You may very well be highly informed on TRT, but you're still not the doctor. If you'd like to be, apply to med school.

The problem is a lot of guys read a ton of stuff online from numerous sources of information, often conflicting information and they then base what's best on what they believe sounds best to them. It's very easy for a lot of guys to come to a message board and get sucked in by veteran posters who others praise and assume whatever they say is golden. That's not bashing anyone, that's just reality. It's very easy to get sucked into one size fits all solutions. You hear of protocols that sound great, but that doesn't mean it's great for you. This is extremely hard for a lot of guys to accept.

[Ryanmcd]

I think it bowls down to people being cheep asses and trying to fix it themselves, 2k is NOT a lot of money for a year of treatment and its you LIFE. After you feel better and have energy get a better job / start a business or do whatever. I know when I was sleeping all the time and trying to "Self" fix because I am a cheep ass it was flat out stupid.

Spend the money and see the best doc you can, take out a loan, work weekends or whatever unless your life and well-being is not worth it and don't give me that shit you cant find a doc because they are out there your just being cheep / lazy.

[Ryanmcd]

The problem is the patient may feel they're not getting the right protocol, but that goes back to #8:
Being disrespectful to your doctor. You may very well be highly informed on TRT, but you're still not the doctor. If you'd like to be, apply to med school.

The problem is a lot of guys read a ton of stuff online from numerous sources of information, often conflicting information and they then base what's best on what they believe sounds best to them. It's very easy for a lot of guys to come to a message board and get sucked in by veteran posters who others praise and assume whatever they say is golden. That's not bashing anyone, that's just reality. It's very easy to get sucked into one size fits all solutions. You hear of protocols that sound great, but that doesn't mean it's great for you. This is extremely hard for a lot of guys to accept.

I trade the market and have for 13 years, you know how many people post online about making millions and don't make / know shit? About 99.999% and that goes for 99% of the internet, not many docs or pros at ANYTHING have time to tell someone else how / what to do.

[powerlifterty16]

The problem is the patient may feel they're not getting the right protocol, but that goes back to #8:
Being disrespectful to your doctor. You may very well be highly informed on TRT, but you're still not the doctor. If you'd like to be, apply to med school.

The problem is a lot of guys read a ton of stuff online from numerous sources of information, often conflicting information and they then base what's best on what they believe sounds best to them. It's very easy for a lot of guys to come to a message board and get sucked in by veteran posters who others praise and assume whatever they say is golden. That's not bashing anyone, that's just reality. It's very easy to get sucked into one size fits all solutions. You hear of protocols that sound great, but that doesn't mean it's great for you. This is extremely hard for a lot of guys to accept.

the point i have trouble with is that you say it's disrespecting the doctor. I believe if you bring up what you've learned in a polite fashion it is advocating for yourself and not disrespecting the dr. drs are humans who deserve respect, but they are working for you.

[m_donnelly]

In guilty of bashing my GP on here but I certainly didnt use their name. However, I've never been disrespectful to a doc because it won't get you anywhere.

For example, my GP told me that my test level (250ng/mL) was in "normal" ranges. Now, I could have pulled out a half dozen studies from the New England Journal of Medicine that contradicted him. But, why would I bother? It's a waste of time to ague the point with the guy as he obviously doesn't understand TRT. I smiled, nodded, and left.

[powerlifterty16]

In guilty of bashing my GP on here but I certainly didnt use their name. However, I've never been disrespectful to a doc because it won't get you anywhere.

For example, my GP told me that my test level (250ng/mL) was in "normal" ranges. Now, I could have pulled out a half dozen studies from the New England Journal of Medicine that contradicted him. But, why would I bother? It's a waste of time to ague the point with the guy as he obviously doesn't understand TRT. I smiled, nodded, and left.

yeah ill try to disagree for maybe 1-2 minutes,, but sometimes i just feel defeated and wont even try to disagree....like when the endo told me 371 was normal i didnt even fight her...but i i did stand up for myself when the urologist denied me trt, but i gave in to him too.

[Low Testosterone]

I think it bowls down to people being cheep asses and trying to fix it themselves, 2k is NOT a lot of money for a year of treatment and its you LIFE. After you feel better and have energy get a better job / start a business or do whatever. I know when I was sleeping all the time and trying to "Self" fix because I am a cheep ass it was flat out stupid.

Spend the money and see the best doc you can, take out a loan, work weekends or whatever unless your life and well-being is not worth it and don't give me that shit you cant find a doc because they are out there your just being cheep / lazy.

I trade the market and have for 13 years, you know how many people post online about making millions and don't make / know shit? About 99.999% and that goes for 99% of the internet, not many docs or pros at ANYTHING have time to tell someone else how / what to do.

Well said on all points.

[Low Testosterone]

the point i have trouble with is that you say it's disrespecting the doctor. I believe if you bring up what you've learned in a polite fashion it is advocating for yourself and not disrespecting the dr. drs are humans who deserve respect, but they are working for you.

I'm reminded of Ricky Bobby when he looked at the team owner and said "with all due respect F*%$ you and I do mean with all due respect" The point, sometimes we can feel like we're not disrespecting the doctor but that's what we end up doing. Yes, there are terrible doctors out there just as there are terrible attorneys, mechanics, contractors and grass mowers but there are plenty of good ones you can get good TRT from. Will it be exactly to the letter like you want it? Maybe, maybe not, but it could be that what you want exactly isn't always in your best interest.

Last point, yes they work for you just as a restaurant works for you when you go to eat there but the restaurant can refuse your service if they want to and so can a doctor.

[EverettCD]

I'm reminded of Ricky Bobby when he looked at the team owner and said "with all due respect F*%$ you and I do mean with all due respect" The point, sometimes we can feel like we're not disrespecting the doctor but that's what we end up doing. Yes, there are terrible doctors out there just as there are terrible attorneys, mechanics, contractors and grass mowers but there are plenty of good ones you can get good TRT from. Will it be exactly to the letter like you want it? Maybe, maybe not, but it could be that what you want exactly isn't always in your best interest.

Last point, yes they work for you just as a restaurant works for you when you go to eat there but the restaurant can refuse your service if they want to and so can a doctor.

I used to wait tables. Be disrespectful to your waitress/waiter & tell her/him how to do their job & see what you get in your food... I'm not a Dr, hell I haven't even played one on TV but I would imagine that treating your Dr disrespectfully will get your the same result.

[flenser]

Probably a bad idea to make this my first post, but this whole thread smacks of Stockholm Syndrome. It’s nice to have expert advice when making important decisions, except when that advice is forced on you. Without a doctor’s permission the only choice in most countries is between doing without and breaking the law, and that goes for a lot more than just TRT. The medical industry takes advantage of that position to increase profit often sacrificing the health of their patients in the process. Doctors represent the enforcers of that system. I give respect for expert advice, but none for nanny tyrant wannabes.

[Kwn]

Agree with flenser. My endo told that 200 mg per two weeks is the way to go. She also said she will not treat a man with TT=350. Why? Coz it sez so in the 'big book of how to be an endo'. Yes, she spent time in med school, and doing residency. But what kind of respect am I supposed to give for this crap. It is ok if your GP does this, they are not supposed to know it by training. But a doctor who makes living from hormonal health issues demonstrating this screaming incompetence - this is borderline criminal. Why should I respect her and be polite? Just because she has a diploma on the wall, certifying that she earned x credit hours in med school? Incompetent mechanic or electrician is frustrating. but phony doctor affect lives, it is completely different ball game.

[Low Testosterone]

Agree with flenser. My endo told that 200 mg per two weeks is the way to go. She also said she will not treat a man with TT=350. Why? Coz it sez so in the 'big book of how to be an endo'. Yes, she spent time in med school, and doing residency. But what kind of respect am I supposed to give for this crap. It is ok if your GP does this, they are not supposed to know it by training. But a doctor who makes living from hormonal health issues demonstrating this screaming incompetence - this is borderline criminal. Why should I respect her and be polite? Just because she has a diploma on the wall, certifying that she earned x credit hours in med school? Incompetent mechanic or electrician is frustrating. but phony doctor affect lives, it is completely different ball game.

An electrician might know how to wire a house but that doesn't mean he knows how to wire a spaceship. Both types of wiring require an electrician but they're not equal. People should stop assuming endocrinologist are taught in-depth TRT in medical school. Why? Because they're not.

[2Sox]

I'm reminded of Ricky Bobby when he looked at the team owner and said "with all due respect F*%$ you and I do mean with all due respect" The point, sometimes we can feel like we're not disrespecting the doctor but that's what we end up doing. Yes, there are terrible doctors out there just as there are terrible attorneys, mechanics, contractors and grass mowers but there are plenty of good ones you can get good TRT from. Will it be exactly to the letter like you want it? Maybe, maybe not, but it could be that what you want exactly isn't always in your best interest.

Last point, yes they work for you just as a restaurant works for you when you go to eat there but the restaurant can refuse your service if they want to and so can a doctor.

Low T,
You make some interesting points and I agree that we shouldn't lose sight that all doctors are imperfect - just as we all are. As many have already implied, all doctors have egos, just as we all do. But when these egos interfere with the practice of their medicine - there are devastating consequences.

I know a doctor that sincerely believes he knows more about TRT than any living, practicing physician today. I believe this statement is also written in his book. IMO, this is a dangerous state of mind. But how many of us have felt this silently, at one time or another, about our own specialties? Once you think you are "all that", you don't think you have much more to learn. That's dangerous and crippling.

The bottom line is that we have every right to question ANYTHING a doctor says or does. It goes without saying that this should be done with respect. And, as has been said, we have the right to walk out of the office if something is not to our liking.

ANYONE on this forum has a right to be critical of any doctor who they have learned is putting their health at risk. And I learned that true criticism is the same as good will because its purpose must be to have that person better off - stronger for it. Bashing is not good will. It's a cheap way of elevating ourselves and shouldn't go on. But let true criticism continue. It gives all of us here more knowledge and encouragement for the future.

Doctors aren't priests to be deferred to. They are just people with flaws like us.

[powerlifterty16]

I used to wait tables. Be disrespectful to your waitress/waiter & tell her/him how to do their job & see what you get in your food... I'm not a Dr, hell I haven't even played one on TV but I would imagine that treating your Dr disrespectfully will get your the same result.

while i dont think that is proper decorum on the waiters' parts, I am always EXTREMELY respectful to anyone handling my food.

[Rusty11]

LT, your comments are long overdue. I'm so glad you decided to post this. Whoever decides these things, please make this a sticky!
I sincerely hope this thread will dramatically reduce the number of "my docs an idiot/a moron/ a dick" comments. I'm very tired of them. There are ways to disagree with a dr. without resorting to name-calling.
Thanks again.

[jay adams]

LT, your comments are long overdue. I'm so glad you decided to post this. Whoever decides these things, please make this a sticky!
I sincerely hope this thread will dramatically reduce the number of "my docs an idiot/a moron/ a dick" comments. I'm very tired of them. There are ways to disagree with a dr. without resorting to name-calling.
Thanks again.

Agree! It gets old hearing all the "misery, woe and gloom". Its great we all have questions and rebuttals but the negativity is starting to paint a bad picture. We all know most docs aren't up to par with the knowledge inside these threads. Posting too much about it is getting old fast and your not telling us anything we don't know already.

[powerlifterty16]

Low T,


I know a doctor that sincerely believes he knows more about TRT than any living, practicing physician today. I believe this statement is also written in his book. IMO, this is a dangerous state of mind. But how many of us have felt this silently, at one time or another, about our own specialties? Once you think you are "all that", you don't think you have much more to learn. That's dangerous and crippling.

i know him too

[Rusty11]

Nowhere does LT state that we are forced to stay with a dr. that we have issues with. You're all free to do what you want, that's fine. Continually calling dr.s "morons", "idiots", "dicks", etc...is not.

[austinite]

Nowhere does LT state that we are forced to stay with a dr. that we have issues with. You're all free to do what you want, that's fine. Continually calling dr.s "morons", "idiots", "dicks", etc...is not.

As a matter of fact, I'll directly ask that everyone refrain from name calling. There is nothing educational about name calling.

[ctenosaura]

Well I guess I got lucky because I broke a lot of those Cardinal rules.

I told my doc I increased my dose from every two weeks to every week
I told him I experimented with HCG and thought a perscription of HCG would be a good thing
I fibbed and told him I got information from a friend who is seeing a TRT specialist (my friend on this forum
Showed him my bloodwork from private md.com

I was however respectful and let him chew me out a little (kind of tough being a 51 year old business owner and getting chewed out without having an ego explosion) but I bit my lip and let him have the last word, and I didn't argue back although I could have.

End result, he did increase my dose to what I asked but denied me HCG. He wanted to give me clomid but politely told him I'd pass

Bottom line is my doc is a good smart guy and knows alot. I like him. He's just not a TRT specialist, and i'm cool with that

[Beethoven]

I think also we can get by without name calling but again, education is your biggest protection. Though not everyone on here is a doctor, but with proper research and some help from many who know a bit, you can tell where you're at or where you may be going by being educated. That's how I knew to move on a find someone more knowledgeable.

[PeteyP]

My Dr. Has an ego the size of Texas! When I first started trt I knew very little. It took me letting him crash my E2 once and then almost a second time before I started to question him. I was never disrespectful, I just let him know that I wanted to be a "partner" in my treatment not just a patient and that I would strive to educated myself as much as possible.
Thats when his ego exploded! Lol He proceeded to tell me that he was the one with the education and I needed to do what he said and not question him, his protocols, or techniques! It must be noted that he also owns the compounding pharmacy and he is deeeeep in his own gear! He actually started to twitch lmao!

That is when I found this site and it has truly been a savior for me! I keep letting him write the scripts while I monitor all of my own bw and if any thing comes up I refer to the stickies, threads, and occasionally ask a question or two.

Just want to say thanks to everyone for every bit of their knowledge and personal experiences!

Best of Luck,
Petey

[JD250]

As a matter of fact, I'll directly ask that everyone refrain from name calling. There is nothing educational about name calling.

Lets be sure and also apply these advised behaviors of respect towards the members here .... a little understanding and respect towards a member who is literally sick will go much further than ruling with a heavy hand. Yes I do understand the "respect" issue along with everything else mentioned here but lets not forget that sometimes people are feeling poorly, broke, hopeless, tired and generally at the end of their ropes and need a place to just blow off steam, not to say that "anything goes" is an acceptable policy just because someone is frustrated, I'm just saying that I've seen MANY people here helped along their journey in the world of TRT by understanding and an encouraging word. On the other hand I do understand that their are a few who go over the top with the bashing........ I just think the benifit of the doubt is where I would rather find myself on this issue....... I've personally been through the "dark days" myself and I am VERY grateful for the vets in this forum who helped me find the way.

low T..... Good post with some interesting responses

[2Sox]

The problem is the patient may feel they're not getting the right protocol, but that goes back to #8:
Being disrespectful to your doctor. You may very well be highly informed on TRT, but you're still not the doctor. If you'd like to be, apply to med school.

The problem is a lot of guys read a ton of stuff online from numerous sources of information, often conflicting information and they then base what's best on what they believe sounds best to them. It's very easy for a lot of guys to come to a message board and get sucked in by veteran posters who others praise and assume whatever they say is golden. That's not bashing anyone, that's just reality. It's very easy to get sucked into one size fits all solutions. You hear of protocols that sound great, but that doesn't mean it's great for you. This is extremely hard for a lot of guys to accept.

Low T,
This is an excellent point. When I first joined this forum, I was clueless about TRT. And did I get an education! But I was also very suspicious of a few posters who took it upon themselves to "prescribe" treatments or suggest supplementation without giving adequate backup data and documentation - aside from anecdotal. And some of these supplements were actually dangerous and some affected brain chemistry. I almost got sucked into some of this. A couple of times, I brought up the fact that documentation about these things should be given along with the suggestions, but nothing came of it.

On another note: I don't blame anyone here for getting angry at a doctor who gives his sacred treatment protocols priority over a patient's health and well being. That is complete bullshit. I'm angry at both my doctors for doing this. My urologist started me on TRT without even testing me for the type of hypongonadism I had and then never told me the downside of treatment. I only found that out here and from my own research. He won't write for hCG and he only tests for estradiol because I insisted. I go to another TRT doctor - who prescribes my Test Cyp. He absolutely does not believe in hCG for TRT (but writes hCG for diet!) He tests for E2 but does not prescribe ai's in the protocol. What did I do? I learned what was good for me - reading and trial and error - and I buy both overseas. If I were to wait for a script for hCG or for adex, I'd be walking into walls for a month, six weeks, before I got it and my stones would be the size of lentils.

I feel bad for the guys who go to doctors who write them Androgel , they feel great for a few months and then wonder why they're balls are aching and shrinking, and why they're feeling like shit again. IMO, this is what is happening to the majority of men who start TRT. Two reasons: Incompetent doctors with insufficient knowledge (or doctors blinded by $ signs) and their own lack of knowledge - or both.

Is it any wonder that those men have gotten angry? The trick is to make constructive use of that anger - like many on this forum have.

[Kwn]

Is it any wonder that those men have gotten angry? The trick is to make constructive use of that anger - like many on this forum have.

Constructive use of anger... I am not sure I know what that means. My endo said "I dont do HCG ". She controls prescription, all I can do is try and convince her. But insurance companies do not view HCG as necessity for TRT, so she will not do that no matter what. You can be convinsing and constructive all you want the answer is still no. BTW, use of HCG for weight loss is directly prohibited by FDA, google it. So prescribing HCG for that is plain malpractice.

Also she said I will not treat a man with TT=350. Why? Because insurance driven standards of care state that 350 is still normal. You can feel like crap but she will not treat you because the playbook says so.

So, no matter what you say she will use the guidelines, not how you feel. So, how do you stay constructive? What is going on is a result of a combination of (1) doctor dumbness (even specialists are plan incompetent), (2) insurance driven guidelines, which do not care about your quality of life, and (3) $ motivation.

How many men heard from their docs (1) its all in your head, (2) you need to see sex therapist, your problem is not hormones, (3) just have some blue pills. I believe it is way too common, it comes straight from urologists' greatest hits album. TRT doctors stay within physiological boundaries, but at least they treat symptoms. Again, I think what is going on in the mainstream medicine is borderline criminal and extremely un-humane.