Reasons why the 1x inj every 2-3 weeks protocol is 8-10 years outdated!!!

[LowT Mike]

This is why the protocol for 1 injection every 2-3 weeks of Test Cyp and Enanthate is 8-10 years out dated. Look at the graph.. This is the true biological half-life of T Cyp/Enan as it relates to serum T. Exogenous Test peaks serum T between 24-48 hours and slowly falls back to baseline by day 9. For men on Testosterone only (no clomid or HCG therapy) they are often lower than baseline having levels lower than when they even started due to HPTA suppression. This pretty much equals feeling like crap week 2 and week 3. Men using this protocol experience this rollar-coaster hormone effect as they feel energized and optimal for the first 5 or 6 days then very weak and symptomatic week 2-3.

Whats ideal?-- 1x week injections at the very least IM. My personal favorite-- 1 injection every 3 days SQ. Different protocols are really what's ideal for the patients lifestyle.


Reasons why the 1 injection every 2-3 weeks protocol is still around?
1)quite simply lack of education. The dosing directions that come from most of the commercially avaliable manufacturer of test cyp and E STILL say "Inject 200mg of every 2-3 weeks." WRONG!! Somebody forgot the difference between the physical half-life and the biological half-life.
2) Majority of doctors learn little about injectables because they only learn TRT from their Androgel medical rep. Sad but true.

Men using this protocol statistically have more superphysiologic side effects as well. polycythemia (higher RBC/hematocrit) putting themselves at risks of DVT (blood clot) and PE. (Pulmonary embolism) and higher rate of estrogen aromatase.

[EverettCD]

Great info, thanks for posting LowT.

[kelkel]

Well said LTM!

(as usual)

[austinite]

Excellent post. Thanks, Mike.

[2Sox]

This is why the protocol for 1 injection every 2-3 weeks of Test Cyp and Enanthate is 8-10 years out dated. Look at the graph.. This is the true biological half-life of T Cyp/Enan as it relates to serum T. Exogenous Test peaks serum T between 24-48 hours and slowly falls back to baseline by day 9. For men on Testosterone only (no clomid or HCG therapy) they are often lower than baseline having levels lower than when they even started due to HPTA suppression. This pretty much equals feeling like crap week 2 and week 3. Men using this protocol experience this rollar-coaster hormone effect as they feel energized and optimal for the first 5 or 6 days then very weak and symptomatic week 2-3.

Whats ideal?-- 1x week injections at the very least IM. My personal favorite-- 1 injection every 3 days SQ. Different protocols are really what's ideal for the patients lifestyle.


Reasons why the 1 injection every 2-3 weeks protocol is still around?
1)quite simply lack of education. The dosing directions that come from most of the commercially avaliable manufacturer of test cyp and E STILL say "Inject 200mg of every 2-3 weeks." WRONG!! Somebody forgot the difference between the physical half-life and the biological half-life.
2) Majority of doctors learn little about injectables because they only learn TRT from their Androgel medical rep. Sad but true.

Men using this protocol statistically have more superphysiologic side effects as well. polycythemia (higher RBC/hematocrit) putting themselves at risks of DVT (blood clot) and PE. (Pulmonary embolism) and higher rate of estrogen aromatase.

Mike,
I emailed my doctor your post and this thread. He's still using the protocol you describe - believes it's really the only effective way. By the way he feels the gels are completely ineffective in the long run. Previous to this I spoke to him and his NP about what you post here and he seemed interested and receptive (although skeptical) about me trying the low dose, more frequent protocol. He sent me the following reply to my email. I'd like to know your feedback on it:

The fact that T levels drop low weeks after an injection is exactly why injections are, by far, the most effective method of replacement. T levels are normally anything but steady state in mammals. It is the up and down cycling that keeps the hormone working. There is no direct correlation between T blood levels and clinical effect. Rather, there is a considerable lag period. We use T cypionate every 2 weeks, and we find the dose that gives a strong clinical effect for 14 days. Too high a dose, with not enough of a drop by day 14, leads to a gradual loss of effect. The only effect that will continue with too high a dose is muscle building. That is why the topicals (Androgel, Testim, etc.) are so markedly inferior in effectiveness.

By the way, I don't agree with him at all. I am already dosing 40mg EOD. And feeling pretty good.

I'm going to ask him, about a lot of what he writes here; it goes against much of what we on the forum have learned and put into practice.
But I'd like to know what do you think he means by "Too high a dose, with not enough of a drop by day 14, leads to a gradual loss of effect."?

[AD]

does anybody know how closely does your sense of well-being follow the total test levels? does a trt patient feel happiest on day2 after injection(at the T peak)? and how soon after T drops to baseline before the patient start feeling like sh*t?

btw, whats the unit for the vertical axis on the graph?

[Java Man]

Thanks LTM. I've learned so much on this forum. Maybe that's why I'm seeing better results and in less time, than I ever did in the past. If only I knew then what I know now, right?

[Rott3n]

I was pinning once a week and switched to every 3.5 days. Since then I feel much more balanced. My skin has improved and I don't sweat as much. Reading this board helped me make this choice.

[powerlifterty16]

Mike,
I emailed my doctor your post and this thread. He's still using the protocol you describe - believes it's really the only effective way. By the way he feels the gels are completely ineffective in the long run. Previous to this I spoke to him and his NP about what you post here and he seemed interested and receptive (although skeptical) about me trying the low dose, more frequent protocol. He sent me the following reply to my email. I'd like to know your feedback on it:

The fact that T levels drop low weeks after an injection is exactly why injections are, by far, the most effective method of replacement. T levels are normally anything but steady state in mammals. It is the up and down cycling that keeps the hormone working. There is no direct correlation between T blood levels and clinical effect. Rather, there is a considerable lag period. We use T cypionate every 2 weeks, and we find the dose that gives a strong clinical effect for 14 days. Too high a dose, with not enough of a drop by day 14, leads to a gradual loss of effect. The only effect that will continue with too high a dose is muscle building. That is why the topicals (Androgel, Testim, etc.) are so markedly inferior in effectiveness.

By the way, I don't agree with him at all. I am already dosing 40mg EOD. And feeling pretty good.

I'm going to ask him, about a lot of what he writes here; it goes against much of what we on the forum have learned and put into practice.
But I'd like to know what do you think he means by "Too high a dose, with not enough of a drop by day 14, leads to a gradual loss of effect."?

wouldnt that argument men gels are good because gels fall by the next day...although i guess since you do daily applications, you never fall below baseline...which gord...i mean your dr wants

[Ryanmcd]

wouldnt that argument men gels are good because gels fall by the next day...although i guess since you do daily applications, you never fall below baseline...which gord...i mean your dr wants

I did like the gels, problem I had was someday I was 400 some days I was 1100 on them, it depends on did some spill on the floor, was it 100% dry when I put on my shirt, was it on my forearms or my shoulders, did some get in my chest hair, did some get in-between my fingers? As you can see I got sick of having good days and bad days and went to the shots, a lot easier to control the dosage. Now if they have a better way to keep CONSISTENT then I will try them again. Also someone was paying the 1200$ a month because my insurance covered it, so $14,400 a year for Gels or $280 for shots lol.

Also Crisler likes the gels better because the up and down everyday like your body already does, I just did not like the good / bad days. I knew when 2PM showed up and I needed a nap that I screwed up putting on the gel that day.

[EverettCD]

I did well on topicals (Axiron & Fortesta) for my first 4-5 months. Then they just "stopped working" for whatever reason. I don't know if my body stopped absorbing the solution very well or if it just wasn't "enough" for me. Some days like Ryan stated, it wouldn't dry 100% before I put my clothes on. I know for a fact that I would sweat some of it off immediately after I applied it, sometimes at work I can't just tell my guys on the truck that I'll be there in a few minutes when this stuff dries & I can put my clothes on (there's Lord knows how much Fortesta soaked into my uniforms & bunker gear). Topicals are a major pain in the a$$ for ME. Either way I feel 10X's better now just 3 weeks into 70mg of Test Cyp two times per week, I have not changed my HCG protocol.

[powerlifterty16]

I did like the gels, problem I had was someday I was 400 some days I was 1100 on them, it depends on did some spill on the floor, was it 100% dry when I put on my shirt, was it on my forearms or my shoulders, did some get in my chest hair, did some get in-between my fingers? As you can see I got sick of having good days and bad days and went to the shots, a lot easier to control the dosage. Now if they have a better way to keep CONSISTENT then I will try them again. Also someone was paying the 1200$ a month because my insurance covered it, so $14,400 a year for Gels or $280 for shots lol.

Also Crisler likes the gels better because the up and down everyday like your body already does, I just did not like the good / bad days. I knew when 2PM showed up and I needed a nap that I screwed up putting on the gel that day.

did you try putting the gels on the way crisler reccomends..rubbing the inside of your forearms together? I just wouldnt want to risk gels getting on my dog....who knows what could happen

[FRDave]

did you try putting the gels on the way crisler reccomends..rubbing the inside of your forearms together? I just wouldnt want to risk gels getting on my dog....who knows what could happen

[powerlifterty16]

yeah maybe lol...

but considering my dog is about 6 foot tall and weighs 120 pounds, i dont think he needs much more muscle lol.

[FRDave]

yeah maybe lol...

but considering my dog is about 6 foot tall and weighs 120 pounds, i dont think he needs much more muscle lol.

Little bit taller and you could ride him lol

[Ryanmcd]

did you try putting the gels on the way crisler reccomends..rubbing the inside of your forearms together? I just wouldnt want to risk gels getting on my dog....who knows what could happen

I did but then I had to shave my arms, it was just a pain in the ass I still have about 10k worth of the crap just sitting. What I may try next is do a shot then on day 5 use 1 pump day 6 use 2 pumps, then do a shot again. Doc was fine with me trying it but I just have not had the need too as I feel great on shots.

100 different ways you can do it as long as you have a good doc that trusts you.

[powerlifterty16]

are u still with crisler? i remember you said he was helpful but you still didnt really like him right?

[Ryanmcd]

are u still with crisler? i remember you said he was helpful but you still didnt really like him right?

Nope not any more, it's not needed once you get it dialed in I feel. I still get everything ran every 6 months just to be safe but insurance covers the $1500 worth of blood work and nothing has changed in over a year, I did try Sub-Q and my test level went from 870 to 349 with the same dose 2x a week so I went back to IM and I feel good so no reason to change anything as the way I see it.

Once you get that done you can tune up everything else like DHEA, D3, Preg, etc using OTC sups and bloodwork as I did, Crisler also gave me some vit recommendations based on my blood work in the past and that was nice and helped too.

I don't like him as a person but I feel he's a good doc and it's a business relationship and I respect his knowledge.

[powerlifterty16]

Nope not any more, it's not needed once you get it dialed in I feel. I still get everything ran every 6 months just to be safe but insurance covers the $1500 worth of blood work and nothing has changed in over a year, I did try Sub-Q and my test level went from 870 to 349 with the same dose 2x a week so I went back to IM and I feel good so no reason to change anything as the way I see it.

Once you get that done you can tune up everything else like DHEA, D3, Preg, etc using OTC sups and bloodwork as I did, Crisler also gave me some vit recommendations based on my blood work in the past and that was nice and helped too.

I don't like him as a person but I feel he's a good doc and it's a business relationship and I respect his knowledge.

how does he make money if you only see him once and never again? i know dr mariano has his patients go once per year
cant believe im asking how crisler makes money....and im jealous he runs a lot of bw..shippen's bw was very conservative
:*(

[Ryanmcd]

how does he make money if you only see him once and never again? i know dr mariano has his patients go once per year
cant believe im asking how crisler makes money....and im jealous he runs a lot of bw..shippen's bw was very conservative
:*(

Once you know what to do you find a local doc that can run blood work / write scripts that trusts you because not much changes. Also I am sure I paid him 2-3k after it was all done with 500$ to see him, 75$ follow ups a few 2-300$ piss in a jug 24 hour testings etc. But again it's worth it man I feel great and am kicking ass at work / in the gym so I would do it all over in no time.

He also tested me for HGH but I was already at 4.20 and the high range was like 2.7 so he said I was lucky to have such a high IGF1 and GHRP 6 would be a waste of money for me, it was cool because he asked if my grandmother was still in good health and She is, 80 years old and she snuck in vodka on a cruse and rode the water slides lol. He said that a high IGF1 = longer life in most people and that's just a little he told me and that is why having a GOOD doc that gets this stuff and can TEACH you is a big deal. I am sure if I went into his office with a bunch of bullshit from the internet he would give me my money back and tell me the get the hell out, some things I did not think at the start where good because of what I read on the forums but I was WRONG, and the forums are WRONG too about a lot of stuff.

Remember just because something you read here or any place on the web even if a LOT of people say it's true you need to run it past a GOOD doc that you can trust because it may not be best for you. I hope for your sake when you go to that doc you don't have something set in your mind because what you read on the web said is best because the top docs I have talked too will NOT deal with you because they don't need a non-compliant patient that's just going to do whatever anyway and it's a waste of everyone's time.

[powerlifterty16]

Once you know what to do you find a local doc that can run blood work / write scripts that trusts you because not much changes. Also I am sure I paid him 2-3k after it was all done with 500$ to see him, 75$ follow ups a few 2-300$ piss in a jug 24 hour testings etc. But again it's worth it man I feel great and am kicking ass at work / in the gym so I would do it all over in no time.

He also tested me for HGH but I was already at 4.20 and the high range was like 2.7 so he said I was lucky to have such a high IGF1 and GHRP 6 would be a waste of money for me, it was cool because he asked if my grandmother was still in good health and She is, 80 years old and she snuck in vodka on a cruse and rode the water slides lol. He said that a high IGF1 = longer life in most people and that's just a little he told me and that is why having a GOOD doc that gets this stuff and can TEACH you is a big deal. I am sure if I went into his office with a bunch of bullshit from the internet he would give me my money back and tell me the get the hell out, some things I did not think at the start where good because of what I read on the forums but I was WRONG, and the forums are WRONG too about a lot of stuff.

Remember just because something you read here or any place on the web even if a LOT of people say it's true you need to run it past a GOOD doc that you can trust because it may not be best for you. I hope for your sake when you go to that doc you don't have something set in your mind because what you read on the web said is best because the top docs I have talked too will NOT deal with you because they don't need a non-compliant patient that's just going to do whatever anyway and it's a waste of everyone's time.

im glad your situation worked out...how old are you? mine wouldnt really be the same though, because i dont have a dr to write me scripts, id have to continue to go to shippen.. hope shippen will work with me if i dont have a primary care on board with this stuff.

so what are you lifting now, you said you lifted 495 with 190 test lol..did u ever take roids to get that number?

shipen is testing my igf 1 too pretty excited to see it bro...i wonder if mine is high..how tall are you?

[Ryanmcd]

im glad your situation worked out...how old are you? mine wouldnt really be the same though, because i dont have a dr to write me scripts, id have to continue to go to shippen.. hope shippen will work with me if i dont have a primary care on board with this stuff.

so what are you lifting now, you said you lifted 495 with 190 test lol..did u ever take roids to get that number?

shipen is testing my igf 1 too pretty excited to see it bro...i wonder if mine is high..how tall are you?

I am 37 now and once you get TRT it's a LOT easier to find a new doc to write the scripts because you have been treated with it before. Also never did roids and I am sure I had lowT my whole life, it just was not until mid 30s that it started giving me a hard time with the naps and stuff, you know it's a issue when you drink 3-4 strong ass pre-workout drinks just to keep awake after sleeping 10 hours lol. Also I was given adderall and that was the wrong fix, someone told me to check my test level and that's when I found out.

Ya I did 585 a few weeks ago so it does help, I would say it helps more with drive then anything but for me drive is HUGE because I like to always be doing 2-3 things lol and with no energy life just sucked.

Also your IGF1 may go up once you get you test #s straight. Also please do me a favor when you go to shippen, just sit and listen and do what he says even if you READ something here about what you should / should not do because he's a top doc and knows more then the "PRO" docs on the interwebs

[EverettCD]

Sound advice Ryan. As we say to the rookies, "Be seen, not heard." Also, "Be a sponge."

Sent from my iPhone that was manufactured in a sweat shop in China

[powerlifterty16]

I am 37 now and once you get TRT it's a LOT easier to find a new doc to write the scripts because you have been treated with it before. Also never did roids and I am sure I had lowT my whole life, it just was not until mid 30s that it started giving me a hard time with the naps and stuff, you know it's a issue when you drink 3-4 strong ass pre-workout drinks just to keep awake after sleeping 10 hours lol. Also I was given adderall and that was the wrong fix, someone told me to check my test level and that's when I found out.

Ya I did 585 a few weeks ago so it does help, I would say it helps more with drive then anything but for me drive is HUGE because I like to always be doing 2-3 things lol and with no energy life just sucked.

Also your IGF1 may go up once you get you test #s straight. Also please do me a favor when you go to shippen, just sit and listen and do what he says even if you READ something here about what you should / should not do because he's a top doc and knows more then the "PRO" docs on the interwebs

585 is really good, do you bench or squat? i WAS DECENT AT DLS TOO WHEN I DID THEM, USED TO DL 445, AND IM A LOT STRONGER NOW, BUT AFTER THE 445, I TRIED 455 AND HERNIATED MY BACK from rounding it lol...THAT WAS BACK IN 2009 I THINK....so i dont dl anymore...think id be pulling 500 now though based on how my other lifts have gone up...still though my t isnt as low as yours was, and it's all speculation if i could have gotten to 5hundred.

[Ryanmcd]

585 is really good, do you bench or squat? i WAS DECENT AT DLS TOO WHEN I DID THEM, USED TO DL 445, AND IM A LOT STRONGER NOW, BUT AFTER THE 445, I TRIED 455 AND HERNIATED MY BACK from rounding it lol...THAT WAS BACK IN 2009 I THINK....so i dont dl anymore...think id be pulling 500 now though based on how my other lifts have gone up...still though my t isnt as low as yours was, and it's all speculation if i could have gotten to 5hundred.

I think test is a small part of your lifts to be honest, it does help and does give you more drive but you still have to do the work. I do Mon-Tues power days, Monday = Back Chest / Tuesday = Legs 5x5 on that stuff, wed off Thur, Fri, Sat 8-12 reps legs chest arms.

No need to make this stuff overly complicated and that's from someone who squatted 800 deads 900 and benches 500 BUT the key is he trains weekly for 15 years.

[2Sox]

This is why the protocol for 1 injection every 2-3 weeks of Test Cyp and Enanthate is 8-10 years out dated. Look at the graph.. This is the true biological half-life of T Cyp/Enan as it relates to serum T. Exogenous Test peaks serum T between 24-48 hours and slowly falls back to baseline by day 9. For men on Testosterone only (no clomid or HCG therapy) they are often lower than baseline having levels lower than when they even started due to HPTA suppression. This pretty much equals feeling like crap week 2 and week 3. Men using this protocol experience this rollar-coaster hormone effect as they feel energized and optimal for the first 5 or 6 days then very weak and symptomatic week 2-3.

Whats ideal?-- 1x week injections at the very least IM. My personal favorite-- 1 injection every 3 days SQ. Different protocols are really what's ideal for the patients lifestyle.


Reasons why the 1 injection every 2-3 weeks protocol is still around?
1)quite simply lack of education. The dosing directions that come from most of the commercially avaliable manufacturer of test cyp and E STILL say "Inject 200mg of every 2-3 weeks." WRONG!! Somebody forgot the difference between the physical half-life and the biological half-life.
2) Majority of doctors learn little about injectables because they only learn TRT from their Androgel medical rep. Sad but true.

Men using this protocol statistically have more superphysiologic side effects as well. polycythemia (higher RBC/hematocrit) putting themselves at risks of DVT (blood clot) and PE. (Pulmonary embolism) and higher rate of estrogen aromatase.

I wanted to try to get this thread back on track because it's so important. Again, Mike, this is a great post - and thank you.

I had a question. The doctor who writes me T-cyp, believes in the outdated protocol you describe above. If I understand him correctly, he feels it's important for a person to get to baseline in order to empty (for lack of a better expression) the T-receptor sites . In other words if the receptors are always charged up, they get desensitized. He feels the steady state of serum T is not a good thing. Is there any science behind this assertion? And has anyone ever heard of such a thing???

[powerlifterty16]

that guy is on steroids , what works for him most likely wont work for you. There are numerous studies showing people on steroids dont have to do the work and can still outperform by miles antty lifters doing their best....buti do know that a lot of people who do take roids work very hard..just saying a lot dont and still get incredible results...i know a guy who takes roids and benches mid 400s at 190 and eats wendys all day, and never squats or dls.

[powerlifterty16]

I wanted to try to get this thread back on track because it's so important. Again, Mike, this is a great post - and thank you.

I had a question. The doctor who writes me T-cyp, believes in the outdated protocol you describe above. If I understand him correctly, he feels it's important for a person to get to baseline in order to empty (for lack of a better expression) the T-receptor sites . In other words if the receptors are always charged up, they get desensitized. He feels the steady state of serum T is not a good thing. Is there any science behind this assertion? And has anyone ever heard of such a thing???

wonder what made him think that....none of the other docs think that.
then again, if he hasn't educated himself on trivial matters such as hcg , he def is not a trt expert...so im guessing mike will say that he is wrong.,,,,imo he is wrong too, form what i knwo.

[LowT Mike]

I did well on topicals (Axiron & Fortesta) for my first 4-5 months. Then they just "stopped working" for whatever reason. I don't know if my body stopped absorbing the solution very well or if it just wasn't "enough" for me. Some days like Ryan stated, it wouldn't dry 100% before I put my clothes on. I know for a fact that I would sweat some of it off immediately after I applied it, sometimes at work I can't just tell my guys on the truck that I'll be there in a few minutes when this stuff dries & I can put my clothes on (there's Lord knows how much Fortesta soaked into my uniforms & bunker gear). Topicals are a major pain in the a$$ for ME. Either way I feel 10X's better now just 3 weeks into 70mg of Test Cyp two times per week, I have not changed my HCG protocol.

This is a common phenomenon when using Gels and Creams. Jonathan Wright founder of BHRT discovered this years ago. Transdermal "fatigue" sometimes occurs right away, or after months to (usually) years of same-dose transdermal treatment producing desired clinical lab results, the quantities absorbed measurably decline with no change in dosage or other circumstances. Nobody can tell you why! I personally dont like Gels and Creams at all. They work for a very small percentage of men and only bump most men up 200-300 points and often cause higher DHT. If they work for you then great!! Consider yourself lucky if thats your preferred route of admin. The transdermal pathway can work well for 3, 6, or even a year in some men. Just be prepared to switch to injectable sometime down the road. This solely happens at the transdermal enzymatic pathway and not to be associated with injectable and the "receptor burn-out" theory. This theory is not true at all.

[LowT Mike]

I wanted to try to get this thread back on track because it's so important. Again, Mike, this is a great post - and thank you.

I had a question. The doctor who writes me T-cyp, believes in the outdated protocol you describe above. If I understand him correctly, he feels it's important for a person to get to baseline in order to empty (for lack of a better expression) the T-receptor sites . In other words if the receptors are always charged up, they get desensitized. He feels the steady state of serum T is not a good thing. Is there any science behind this assertion? And has anyone ever heard of such a thing???

The "burn-out of T receptors" is a weak science. I dont believe in this at all. Just ask the 1000s of my patients that have been on TRT for almost 2 decades. Their are many different protocols and you cant say this dosent work or that dosent work. Every one is different. Find the protocol that works best for you and stick with it. If a doctor triages correctly and gets the patient to truely identify his symptoms...he/she will find majority of men using the 1 injection every 2-3 weeks is terrible majority of men feel great the first 3-4 days then in the dirt week 2-3. The best TRT guys know this as fact!! Very hard to change a doctors mind. they are not in the business of saying "I dont know". Its a shame. He needs to go to an A4m meeting and meet the 3,000 doctors that know his protocol is horrible and creating more side-effects.

[2Sox]

The "burn-out of T receptors" is a weak science. I dont believe in this at all. Just ask the 1000s of my patients that have been on TRT for almost 2 decades. Their are many different protocols and you cant say this dosent work or that dosent work. Every one is different. Find the protocol that works best for you and stick with it. If a doctor triages correctly and gets the patient to truely identify his symptoms...he/she will find majority of men using the 1 injection every 2-3 weeks is terrible majority of men feel great the first 3-4 days then in the dirt week 2-3. The best TRT guys know this as fact!! Very hard to change a doctors mind. they are not in the business of saying "I dont know". Its a shame. He needs to go to an A4m meeting and meet the 3,000 doctors that know his protocol is horrible and creating more side-effects.

Mike,
Thank you VERY much for your response to this. This doctor believes very strongly in this "T-receptor burn out" idea, and in his outdated protocol. Why he has so many patients is a complete mystery to me. His curiosity was peaked (and so was his head NP's) when I spoke to each of them on separate occasions about the low dose, more frequent protocols that many men and now practicing. It's in my chart and when I get my next blood work, I hope it makes some sort of an impact on what they do. Nevertheless, from my knowledge, the FDA no longer permits doctors to have Testosterone in their offices to administer; they are now required to write scripts for their patients - to self administer or bring in to the doctor's office to be administered. (Unfortunately, this also brings with it more of a chance for abuse.) So now patients have more control of their protocols. Such is the case with me.

[LowT Mike]

Great. Got to watch out for these kind of docs that only use blanket protocols for everybody. That have nothing in comparison to show them any different. Hes more than welcome to give me a call and If he wants Im an open book and would love to provide him studies and labs supporting many of the gold standard protocols we use today.

Regarding the FDA law that says no more T for office use. If was doctors that screwed that up for everybody! If you are using T for office use it clearly says on the bottle of T and on every aggrement with a pharmacy and/or big pharma brand. FOR OFFICE USE ONLY!!!! Doctors got greedy and that made them blind to the ONLY part. You cannot sell and upcharge T in the office that you get from a pharmacy. This is a DEA no no!! Doctors doing jail sentences because of this.

[powerlifterty16]

Great. Got to watch out for these kind of docs that only use blanket protocols for everybody. That have nothing in comparison to show them any different. Hes more than welcome to give me a call and If he wants Im an open book and would love to provide him studies and labs supporting many of the gold standard protocols we use today.

Regarding the FDA law that says no more T for office use. If was doctors that screwed that up for everybody! If you are using T for office use it clearly says on the bottle of T and on every aggrement with a pharmacy and/or big pharma brand. FOR OFFICE USE ONLY!!!! Doctors got greedy and that made them blind to the ONLY part. You cannot sell and upcharge T in the office that you get from a pharmacy. This is a DEA no no!! Doctors doing jail sentences because of this.

trust me mike, he wont call you..ive seen this dr too, and he is way too arrogant and looking towards retirement to call you lol.
i got a money hungry feeling from his office when isaw him. He is the dr who was going to give me trt at 19. He doesnt use hcg or check estradiol either. He is not completely clueless in that he knows injections are best, free t is important, and most drs arent up to date, but besides those things he is clueless and stubborn.
but for an older guy like 2 sox who might be primary he is not a bad choice since he is on insurance....and my dad knows one of this dr's patients and the guyy according to my dad looks really good each time my dad sees him...says his t is good and balls are not shrinking....sadly never heard of hcg. i should tell my dad to tell that guy to ask the dr for hcg...although i already know this doc's attitude.

i feel the only reason this doc is open to 2sox's new protocol is bc he cant make money due to fda law change from him coming in every 2 weeks .

[EverettCD]

This is a common phenomenon when using Gels and Creams. Jonathan Wright founder of BHRT discovered this years ago. Transdermal "fatigue" sometimes occurs right away, or after months to (usually) years of same-dose transdermal treatment producing desired clinical lab results, the quantities absorbed measurably decline with no change in dosage or other circumstances. Nobody can tell you why! I personally dont like Gels and Creams at all. They work for a very small percentage of men and only bump most men up 200-300 points and often cause higher DHT. If they work for you then great!! Consider yourself lucky if thats your preferred route of admin. The transdermal pathway can work well for 3, 6, or even a year in some men. Just be prepared to switch to injectable sometime down the road. This solely happens at the transdermal enzymatic pathway and not to be associated with injectable and the "receptor burn-out" theory. This theory is not true at all.

Thanks for responding with this Mike. I have never heard of this phenomenon, very interesting & this makes sense as to why I stopped feeling "good" administering Axiron & later Fortesta. Test Cyp is the only way for me now, I feel great since making the switch.

[EverettCD]

Great. Got to watch out for these kind of docs that only use blanket protocols for everybody. That have nothing in comparison to show them any different. Hes more than welcome to give me a call and If he wants Im an open book and would love to provide him studies and labs supporting many of the gold standard protocols we use today.

Regarding the FDA law that says no more T for office use. If was doctors that screwed that up for everybody! If you are using T for office use it clearly says on the bottle of T and on every aggrement with a pharmacy and/or big pharma brand. FOR OFFICE USE ONLY!!!! Doctors got greedy and that made them blind to the ONLY part. You cannot sell and upcharge T in the office that you get from a pharmacy. This is a DEA no no!! Doctors doing jail sentences because of this.

Good to know. The Doctors that are up selling Test to their pt's should be locked up for a while to think about making money off of men in need.

[2Sox]

i feel the only reason this doc is open to 2sox's new protocol is bc he cant make money due to fda law change from him coming in every 2 weeks .

He may or may not be open to my suggestions, but I'm sure he realizes that whether he agrees or not, if he wants his patients to stay his patients - he really doesn't have much of choice in the matter.

He does however have leverage with his new patients because he can insist that they come in, bring the vial of T so he can do their shots. If not, he can say he won't write the script. I'd imagine it's an interesting "dance" here. It's unfortunate that in all of the New York City area, I know of no other doctor who takes all insurance - including MEDICARE - and writes for T-cyp. It's crazy. If anyone knows differently, please give us all a heads-up.

[powerlifterty16]

He may or may not be open to my suggestions, but I'm sure he realizes that whether he agrees or not, if he wants his patients to stay his patients - he really doesn't have much of choice in the matter.

He does however have leverage with his new patients because he can insist that they come in, bring the vial of T so he can do their shots. If not, he can say he won't write the script. I'd imagine it's an interesting "dance" here. It's unfortunate that in all of the New York City area, I know of no other doctor who takes all insurance - including MEDICARE - and writes for T-cyp. It's crazy. If anyone knows differently, please give us all a heads-up.

well maybe not in nyc per say but the doc i pmed you in ct takes a lot of insurance, maybe not as many as your dr, but he is a cheap dr as far as i know, and the greater knowledge he has compared with your dr overrules the potentially less accepted insurance of your doctor's.

To be honest, i think his patients will stay either way. Not everyone questions drs, and your dr touts himself as an expert. It's funny, If i recall I actually gained a LOT of my beginning education from your dr's videos, and it was those same videos that caused me to look further and further into things to gain the knowledge of hcg etc that caused me NOT to see him....In your dr's defense, he did talk to me through email A LOT back then....but still he definitely has no idea what he's doing, but test is a powerful drug, and like i said some of his patients feel better;like my dad's friend who doesnt take hcg...his wife is going on estrogen from your dr i think

might as well post the page of the doc i think is good in ct so others can see it
he's an endocrinologist that specializes in hypogonadism
http://www.vitals.com/doctors/Dr_Ilja_Hulinsky/profile

2 sox this guy may take insurance, ive heard good things about him in nyc pal
http://www.harryfisch.com/about-harry-fisch.html

[2Sox]

well maybe not in nyc per say but the doc i pmed you in ct takes a lot of insurance, maybe not as many as gordon, but he is a cheap dr as far as i know, and the greater knowledge he has compared with gordon overrules the potentially less accepted insurance of gordon's.

Powerlifter,



To be honest, i think his patients will stay either way. Not everyone questions drs, and gordon touts himself as an expert. It's funny, If i recall I actually gained a LOT of my beginning education from gordon's videos, and it was those same videos that caused me to look further and further into things to gain the knowledge of hcg etc that caused me NOT to see him....In gordon's defense, he did talk to me through email A LOT back then....but still he definitley has no idea what he's doing, but test is a powerful drug, and like i said some of his aptients feel better;like my dad's friend who doesnt take hcg...his wife is going on estrogen rom gordon i think

might as well post the page of the doc i think is good in ct so others can see it
he's an endocrinologist that specializes in hypogonadism
Dr. Ilja Hulinsky, MD - Internist in Easton, CT - Internal Medicine

2 sox this guy may take insurance, ive heard good things about him in nyc pal
About Doctor Harry Fisch

Thanks for the leads. Although I have little faith that any MD on Park Avenue would take ANY insurance.

[powerlifterty16]

Thanks for the leads. Although I have little faith that any MD on Park Avenue would take ANY insurance.

idk man, but i saw an endo at columbia many years ago under insurance.

[powerlifterty16]

@2sox...done