Coming off TRT... need advice!

**Bulldogs1** · 01-24-2014, 05:16 PM

I'm currently on 100mg Test cyp sq split in 2 doses per week and 250iu HCG twice a week. My anxiety and insomnia has worsened with TRT, and I wish to discontinue it. Can anyone advise me on how to go about returning to how I was before TRT?

I suspect the culprit to my low test levels (21 y/o) was overtraining, so I'm going to stop training for a few months and see if I recover. My GP who prescribes the TRT doesn't feel comfortable prescribing me SERMS for a HPTA restart, and doesn't know of any other MD's who would. I've called around with no luck.

Should I self-administer an HPTA restart/PCT-ish protocol? What would you recommend?

**jomamma007** · 01-24-2014, 05:36 PM

did you ever check your E levels on TRT. They can make you more anxious and ruin sleep.

**2Sox** · 01-24-2014, 05:54 PM

What jo said. Definitely. Sounds like you're making serious decisions much too fast. There is no hurry so slow down, and make you decisions measured and carefully thought out. What you "suspect" might not have a basis in reality. Get your blood tests done to see where you are. Give some background information about your condition so the people here will be able to help you. And they will. It's been said often: Patience is the toughest thing to have on TRT. Stay frosty.

**bullshark99** · 01-24-2014, 06:32 PM

Your not giving us anything here bulldog, what are ur stats, your a young buck, what brought you to TRT??? Need to see blood work. Not saying it's not possible but highly unprobable "over training" caused ur low T? If that were the case these poor souls training for marathons and the Olympics would be in a bad way.
Again blood work is your best tool.

**64509chvl** · 01-24-2014, 06:33 PM

As mentioned, slow up a little. Not sure how long you've been on but, I'm still not quite dialed in (been on for just over 3 months), close but not quite there! Up until recently I had anxiety goin on here & there, along with just feeling uneasy really. Blood work says it all & tells ya what to do or your TRT doc anyways. I'm close to feeling good all the time rather than just some of the time. Atleast give it a fair shot if ya haven't already.

As for your test being low from over training...well we're certainly all diferent & handle & recover from lifting differently, but I suspected this aswell at one point as I did an over reach (intentionally over training) on some lifts the first time I had my hormones checked & they were def low. 4 or 5 months later eating @ maintenance & back to a normal lifting schedule it was still low & actually lower, lol! My point is I doubt over training is the culprit if your T is actually low!

Yes I def felt more whooped torward the end of my over reach but my T levels were the same & I still generally felt like garbage like I have for some time now. Until these past few days I did not realize how crummy I actually was!

**Bulldogs1** · 01-24-2014, 08:09 PM

To everyone:

6 Weeks TRT
total test: 478 ng/dl
free test: 11.5 (8.3-26.5)

2 Months
Total Test: 736 ng/dL (348-1197)
Free Test: 16.1 pg/mL (8.3-26.5)
Estradiol Roche ECLIA Method: 17.9 pg/mL (7.6-42.6)
Estrone: 46 pg/mL (12-72)
Cortisol, AM: 21.8 ug/dl (6.2-19.4) HIGH

5 months
10/7/13:
Testosterone Free: 25.5 [5-40]
Testosterone, Total: 767 [332-896]
Estrogens, Fractioned
Estrone: 99 [<80]
Estradiol: 32 [0-56]
Estrogens, Total: 131 [<136]

7 months
12/13/2013:
T3, Free: 3.9 [2.3-4.2]
T4, Free: 1.2 [0.7-1.5]
TSH: 1.99 [0.45-5.10]

Testosterone, Free: 41.7 [5-40]
Testosterone, Total: 712 [332-896]

Estrogens, Fractionated:
Estrone: 73 [<80]
Estradiol: 44 [0-56]
Estrogens, Total: 111 [<136]

Here are my labs while on TRT. I'm currently taking PES Erase to address my high estrogen. My Dr. won't prescribe me an AI due to possible long term side effects.

Throughout the course of college I've been lifting 3-4x a week, playing sports 2-3x a week, and probably not eating enough. There were times in my earlier college years where I was doing 2-a-days on a keto cut. Had the typical low test, high cortisol that is a marker of overtraining, including other biomarkers. Showed my Dr. journal articles on the condition and he was convinced as well.

Read my previous labs on TRT and let me know what you think. I made a new thread because people stopped responding to the old one.

Edit: Is there any other labwork I should get checked out? Dr. gets annoyed when I ask for further labwork.

**PistolPete33** · 01-24-2014, 08:34 PM

Your GP sounds like a moron so maybe you should find a real TRT Dr. and have them find out exactly what's going on and get your properly dialed in with all the meds that you truly need.

**Bulldogs1** · 01-24-2014, 09:28 PM

No TRT docs in my city or anywhere near that are any better, trust me I looked :\ I've been lucky enough that he's been open-minded enough to listen to me based on recommendations more experienced people tell me in forums.

He tries to sell me on a lot of quackery though, can't leave his office without being offered some new bs to buy

**Bulldogs1** · 01-27-2014, 05:04 AM

Does anyone know if I can just stop taking my test cyp and just go HCG for a bit to come off? I know everyone says I'm rushing, but I've thought of this for a few months and believe me when I say I feel much worse now on TRT than off due to anxiety.

**miker295** · 01-27-2014, 10:19 AM

I'm in a similar situation to you - 50mg 2x week plus 250IU HCG E3D and anxiety has been a major issue. I am also on 1mg AI twice a week. Folks have told me anxiety is probably due to crashing my E2 with that much AI, but I don't have blood work yet to know for sure. Originally I was on 100mg 2x per week and I was miserable, so the doc slashed the T in half. The anxiety subsided, but was still present on certain days and impacting my life. I reduced the AI after my last shot to .5mg and felt better, but I also was not in what I would call an anxiety inducing situation over that time. I'm cautiously optimistic that things have leveled out and I can make smaller tweaks going forward.

From what I've heard the anxiety is triggered by rapid changes in hormones, so probably smaller steps are advised. You may want to cut the T in half, as I did, and give it another four weeks to see if that helps. Or increase your anti-E2 protocol a bit since that still looks like it's a little on the higher side for your age.

I've also thought about giving in, but once I slashed the T does in half my anxiety at least became manageable, so I decided I would give it more time and make smaller tweaks, since I've also noticed some benefits.

If you do want to call it quits, I know that I asked my doc what he would do in that situation and he said "stop the T but continue the HCG for a while, and then ease off the HCG." So that may be an option to consider.

**Bulldogs1** · 01-27-2014, 04:34 PM

Originally Posted by miker295

I'm in a similar situation to you - 50mg 2x week plus 250IU HCG E3D and anxiety has been a major issue. I am also on 1mg AI twice a week. Folks have told me anxiety is probably due to crashing my E2 with that much AI, but I don't have blood work yet to know for sure. Originally I was on 100mg 2x per week and I was miserable, so the doc slashed the T in half. The anxiety subsided, but was still present on certain days and impacting my life. I reduced the AI after my last shot to .5mg and felt better, but I also was not in what I would call an anxiety inducing situation over that time. I'm cautiously optimistic that things have leveled out and I can make smaller tweaks going forward.

From what I've heard the anxiety is triggered by rapid changes in hormones, so probably smaller steps are advised. You may want to cut the T in half, as I did, and give it another four weeks to see if that helps. Or increase your anti-E2 protocol a bit since that still looks like it's a little on the higher side for your age.

I've also thought about giving in, but once I slashed the T does in half my anxiety at least became manageable, so I decided I would give it more time and make smaller tweaks, since I've also noticed some benefits.

If you do want to call it quits, I know that I asked my doc what he would do in that situation and he said "stop the T but continue the HCG for a while, and then ease off the HCG." So that may be an option to consider.

Yeah my Dr. wants me to back off on the T too, but 100mg/week is a fairly low TRT dose and I think my blood levels reflect that. The high E2 levels weren't an issue until I added HCG, but then again my free test was pretty low before I added HCG as well.

I'm not entirely sure what to do at this point, I took HCG monotherapy over a year ago and that made me produce a lot of estrogen as well, so maybe I should cut down on my HCG does.

How much HCG is the minimum amount to keep the testes functioning?

**Metalject** · 01-27-2014, 05:46 PM

Originally Posted by Bulldogs1

Yeah my Dr. wants me to back off on the T too, but 100mg/week is a fairly low TRT dose and I think my blood levels reflect that. The high E2 levels weren't an issue until I added HCG , but then again my free test was pretty low before I added HCG as well.

I'm not entirely sure what to do at this point, I took HCG monotherapy over a year ago and that made me produce a lot of estrogen as well, so maybe I should cut down on my HCG does.

How much HCG is the minimum amount to keep the testes functioning?

100mg isn't that low. My dose is 120mg/wk and I'm fine. That doesn't mean that's the right dose for you, but a lot of guys have this thing about 200mg stuck in their head that just doesn't hold true. Heck I used to have it stuck in my head.

I wouldn't give up on TRT. I'd continue to move along and find what works for you. If you live with low levels, over time your low levels symptoms are only going to get worse. They won't just level off and you also open the door to other possible conditions when you live with low testosterone , far worse than low testosterone . Heart disease, Alzheimer's, and osteoporosis, all linked to low testosterone.

**kelkel** · 01-27-2014, 06:01 PM

Originally Posted by Bulldogs1

I'm currently on 100mg Test cyp sq split in 2 doses per week and 250iu HCG twice a week. My anxiety and insomnia has worsened with TRT, and I wish to discontinue it. Can anyone advise me on how to go about returning to how I was before TRT?

I suspect the culprit to my low test levels (21 y/o) was overtraining, so I'm going to stop training for a few months and see if I recover. My GP who prescribes the TRT doesn't feel comfortable prescribing me SERMS for a HPTA restart, and doesn't know of any other MD's who would. I've called around with no luck.

Should I self-administer an HPTA restart/PCT-ish protocol? What would you recommend?

So your doctor started you on TRT at such a young age without actually locating the cause of the problem?

**Bulldogs1** · 01-27-2014, 07:24 PM

Originally Posted by kelkel

So your doctor started you on TRT at such a young age without actually locating the cause of the problem?

Been seeing different doctors for 2 years, no one could find a cause for it. Looked at my stomach, my adrenals, my thyroid, etc etc etc and nothing panned out. And that's why I'm taking a semester off from working out as I truly believe I've been chronically overtraining for much of college.

I'll ask again, but does anyone know a good/low HCG dose to preserve functioning but won't be so harsh on my E2 levels?

**kelkel** · 01-27-2014, 09:55 PM

250iu's or so 3 x per week will do it. Personally I think you'll see even less subjective benefits from HCG mono.
Have you considered seeing one of the elite doc's in the TRT field by chance? Crisler, Shippen, Dach, etc...

**Bulldogs1** · 01-27-2014, 10:34 PM

Originally Posted by kelkel

250iu's or so 3 x per week will do it. Personally I think you'll see even less subjective benefits from HCG mono.
Have you considered seeing one of the elite doc's in the TRT field by chance? Crisler, Shippen, Dach, etc...

I have not, money's really an issue and I have too great of insurance to see someone who doesn't take it. I mean a lot of this stuff is simple, it's just my Doc won't budge on the whole estrogen thing.

Is there any labs you think I should get done soon? I haven't really had anything except my testosterone /estrogen/cortisol/thyroid levels checked since I've been put on TRT. I wonder how everything else has been affected and if that has had anything to do with my subjective feeling.