Two month test results - am I too high now?

**miker295** · 02-05-2014, 08:51 PM

Hi all - I'll post complete history here so apologies for the length but I think this is what you guys will want to know.

Prior to treatment (late Nov '13)
Total T 738 (range 332 - 896)
Free Test 12.4 (range 5-40)
Estradiol 43 (range 0-56)

I decided to go on treatment to up the Free T and lower the E2, based on my primary goal to lose fat and secondary goal to build muscle. (Over 10 years of diet + exercise had made little progress compared to effort expended.) Also, I had prior tests that showed the E2 at the high end of the range but the Total T near the lower end of the range.

I went on treatment at 100mg 2x/wk and was quite anxious, emotional and gained several lbs. On January 8 the doc told me to cut the Test in half, so I went to this protocol:
50 mg T-CYP 2x week
1mg Anastrazole 2x week (the morning after the above shot)
250 ml HCG every 3 days

Since cutting the Test down I've felt better, though I still have 1-2 days a week when I am fairly anxious or feel like I'm having some other side effect related to treatment.

On Jan 31 I had blood drawn, so these results below are about 3 weeks into the above protocol. Here's where I was:
Total T 1527 (range 332 - 896)
Free Test 46.7 (range 5-40)
Estradiol 32 (range 0-56)
IGF-1 201.1 (range 132-333)
Hematocrit 42.8 (range 39-50)

On the same day I had the blood drawn, I met with a new doc who replaced the old doc. He told me 1mg AI was too much (consistent with what you guys were saying) so he told me to skip that entirely or just take less if I felt like I needed it. I did indeed skip the AI on the last shot (so after these results were drawn) as well as the following shot. Last night I had severe chills and intense pain under both pecs, so I decided to take .25mg AI as I wasn't sure if it was E2 related or just some random crazy cold. Today I feel much better though, so maybe the AI helped?

In any case, today the doc decided to keep test where it is but cut the AI down, so this is the protocol he recommended:
50 mg T-CYP 2x week
.5mg Anastrazole 2x week day after T-CYP
250 ml HCG 2x week day after AI

His reasoning for not lowering the T is that I may have still had some of the older, higher dose left in my system when I had blood drawn. So he wants to wait another month and says if it is still that high we should lower the T-CYP.

So if you've made it this far (thanks!) then here are my questions:
1) Do you think the high T could have been somewhat inflated from the prior, higher T dose, even though I had stopped that 3 weeks prior to the blood draw?
2) If not inflated, do you think there are any concerns maintaining my current T dose for another month before re-testing?
3) What do you think about the new AI dose given that anxiety has been an issue when I was dosing at 1mg 2x week, yet on that dose my E2 seemed to land in a good spot (at least on the day of the draw)?

**kelkel** · 02-05-2014, 09:17 PM

Originally Posted by miker295

So if you've made it this far (thanks!) then here are my questions:
1) Do you think the high T could have been somewhat inflated from the prior, higher T dose, even though I had stopped that 3 weeks prior to the blood draw?
2) If not inflated, do you think there are any concerns maintaining my current T dose for another month before re-testing?
3) What do you think about the new AI dose given that anxiety has been an issue when I was dosing at 1mg 2x week, yet on that dose my E2 seemed to land in a good spot (at least on the day of the draw)?

1. No
2. No
3. Still think it's high. Avg dose for a 500mg T cycle is .25mg eod. Do the math.

My question is what doc would seriously put you on TRT with the numbers you had before? Why wasn't an effort made to simply improve your Free T level first and foremost?

**miker295** · 02-05-2014, 10:14 PM

Originally Posted by kelkel

My question is what doc would seriously put you on TRT with the numbers you had before? Why wasn't an effort made to simply improve your Free T level first and foremost?

Good question. I am not convinced this is necessary, but I can say that (other than the days I am anxious) I feel 100x better than I did prior to starting. So I feel like I'm headed in the right direction.

The doc led me to believe that the protocol he put me on was a good method of improving Free T. What other, less invasive methods would you use to improve Free T? (Note that I've spent 20 years on the diet and exercise route to no avail.)

My new doc suspects possible thyroid issues. Previously I had looked at thyroid and after a year of looking found a doc who put me on something. During that period I did lose some weight, though nothing dramatic. At that time though I could not afford the out of pocket expense and I could not find a doctor on plan who would treat me, so I stopped it (and gained back the weight). My doc today agreed to test thyroid levels next month if I am still not experiencing any fat loss.

**joebailey1271** · 02-06-2014, 04:51 AM

Originally Posted by miker295

Good question. I am not convinced this is necessary, but I can say that (other than the days I am anxious) I feel 100x better than I did prior to starting. So I feel like I'm headed in the right direction.

The doc led me to believe that the protocol he put me on was a good method of improving Free T. What other, less invasive methods would you use to improve Free T? (Note that I've spent 20 years on the diet and exercise route to no avail.)

My new doc suspects possible thyroid issues. Previously I had looked at thyroid and after a year of looking found a doc who put me on something. During that period I did lose some weight, though nothing dramatic. At that time though I could not afford the out of pocket expense and I could not find a doctor on plan who would treat me, so I stopped it (and gained back the weight). My doc today agreed to test thyroid levels next month if I am still not experiencing any fat loss.

I think all you would have needed was some D3 and zince to lower your E2 and increase your free T, To be honest, I can not imagine why a doctor would put you on HRT with a test level of 700 plus, that seems reckless, alot of the guys here shoot for the 7 to 800 range, and you was there naturally.

**miker295** · 02-06-2014, 07:49 AM

Originally Posted by joebailey1271

I think all you would have needed was some D3 and zince to lower your E2 and increase your free T, To be honest, I can not imagine why a doctor would put you on HRT with a test level of 700 plus, that seems reckless, alot of the guys here shoot for the 7 to 800 range, and you was there naturally.

I've been supplementing with 10000 units of Vitamin D daily for 2 years and my D3 levels tested in the middle of the range. I have taken zinc in the past though it wasn't for this purpose and I hadn't made other modifications so I don't know if that had any impact.

**Test Rage** · 02-06-2014, 08:05 AM

Im shocked that DHT SHGB and BioAvailable test where not measured before placing a patient on a life altering course.

**miker295** · 02-06-2014, 08:21 AM

Originally Posted by Test Rage

Im shocked that DHT SHGB and BioAvailable test where not measured before placing a patient on a life altering course.

On two occasions SHBG was at the high end of the lab range or over the high end, though I don't have the values in front of me - I think it was in the 50s. I do not recall having DHT tested, nor BioAvailable test (just Free Test).

**Beethoven** · 02-06-2014, 08:40 AM

I can't believe a Doctor would put anyone with a test of 700 being on trt. I tried a cycle of HCG for two months hoping I would just get to 500 or 600. You were at 700 with nothing.

**kelkel** · 02-06-2014, 08:49 AM

Get your D level near the top of the range but not over. It's fat soluble so take it with meals. Avenacosides help as can nettle root in reducing shbg. It seems to me your problem is elsewhere, not with your original T levels. Dig deeper into your thyroid, iron or adrenal issues.

**miker295** · 02-07-2014, 06:34 AM

I think we can all agree that my levels are too high now. I will talk to the Dr. about it. By the way, for context I am 37.

I guess what I'm confused about is that so many folks here on the boards say things like "total T is irrelevant" and "free T is what matters" and "treat the symptoms not the numbers" yet whenever I post my Total T numbers people seem to focus on that and say I don't need to be on treatment. There were several reasons I decided to start treatment:
1) On two separate tests, Free T was on the lower end of the spectrum while E2 was on the higher end of the spectrum. This seemed to be very consistent with my primary challenges of a life long struggle to lose fat/gain muscle, particularly given that I've eaten clean for the last two years (and I had my doc evaluate a week long food diary to confirm that).
2) I had numerous other symptoms of Low T which seem to have improved since treatment began. In the six months prior to treatment I was mildly depressed, had low libido, zero energy - with a 738 T level. In addition, I was told after a DEXA body fat/muscle analysis that my bone density may be low which was completely unexpected and turns out is also consistent with Low T.
3) I have tried numerous other methods without success. I spent two years troubleshooting the thyroid including 3 months on medication which may or may not have had a minor impact. (I am going to try to revisit this in my next round of blood work.) Yes, I added nettle root on two occasions after seeing the high SHBG number - on the first round I felt like I might have had a minor impact, but not on the second.

In addition to this, I would say that many symptoms have radically improved since starting treatment. My energy levels are at an all time high. Depression is gone. Libido best in years. I am fairly sure I have gained some muscle and will confirm that today with another DEXA scan.

As I've said my primary side effect has been anxiety which I think is related to the E2 fluctuations/AI dose. I feel like that is stabilizing but if it doesn't this alone is enough to get me off treatment - I'd much rather be overweight than anxious. Also, although I think I've gained muscle, my waist measurement and BF% seem to remain unchanged at 34" and 23% respectively, which is quite frustrating.

Given all of the above I'm curious to think if you still believe I'm on the wrong track. I have been working for more than 20 years now to solve these problems and have researched these topics fairly exhaustively. I did not start this path lightly and am not sure I am ready to give up on it given some of the progress I've made.

**SEOINAGE** · 02-07-2014, 10:39 AM

I'll be honest, for most of us just going on trt doesn't fix the bf issues. It is kind of surprising, but I have to go to great lengths currently to lose bodyfat, it didn't get any easier. I was expecting radical changes..... but trt is normal human dose, so that just doesn't happen, unless you are extremely low prior to treatment, and even then I guarantee those guys will get to a time when they still have to put work in to make progress.

Of course you are probably gaining muscle and water retention that is a given. I had bad water retention for the first 6 months or more of my trt. You are also on a really high dose for you and there's no wonder as to why you feel great etc etc, but that will change more than likely to a degree.

Ever wonder if your constant struggle with diet and exercise and losing fat had caused your body to be in a physiologically compromised state? I would be willing to bet a break from training, adjustments to diet etc would have yielded improvements to how you felt and possibly with some other tricks an improvement in free test.

TRT isn't going to fix your muscle gain fat loss issues. I know you say you eat clean, but have you ever taken a look at your training protocol. Even with low t levels you can build muscle, maybe you weren't ever doing what your body needed to build muscle. Anyways, it sounds like your goals are best served taking steroids , or taking a step back and re-evaluating what you are doing. Building naturally can be hard, but you can't build muscle while cutting for long without drugs.

**miker295** · 02-07-2014, 10:08 PM

I am modestly encouraged by today's DEXA scan results, which show that of the 6.8 lbs I've gained in the last 3 months, 5.4lbs was muscle and 1.6 lbs was fat. That is a much better ratio than what I've seen in the past. I'd much rather the fat be going negative, but this is probably second best.

I think I'm going to try to give it another month, see if things stabilize, do some additional testing and then decide what I should do next.