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  1. #1
    Ccdiesel is offline Associate Member
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    Help: Trt Deca and recent ED after 12th week

    Protocol:
    120mg test and deca with HCG 250iu twice weekly.

    So my 12th week now after starting and suddenly get ED. Immediately do bloodwork and test level is 1500 and e2 is 57.

    I did this protocol. Based off Kel's guidance for joint pain with the understanding that sexual sides are only a result of high estrogen and prolactin and if I control estrogen I will be fine.

    So if I get my estrogen down with aromasin will it clear up or is deca causing the problem and there is no short term treatment aside from stopping use?

  2. #2
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    If I were you...
    Drop your test dose a bit. Remember that the deca helps with gains also.
    Your test level of 1500 is too high to run as TRT in my opinion.
    Use a low dose of an AI.
    Get bloodwork in 4 weeks.

  3. #3
    Ccdiesel is offline Associate Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Deadlifting Dog View Post
    If I were you...
    Drop your test dose a bit. Remember that the deca helps with gains also.
    Your test level of 1500 is too high to run as TRT in my opinion.
    Use a low dose of an AI.
    Get bloodwork in 4 weeks.
    Overall I feel great, less pain, stronger, but I can't live with ED. That is my main problem right now.

    I know I need to adjust the test dose but deca is making me question what's going on. I am definitely stressed so it's making it worse.
    Last edited by Ccdiesel; 05-29-2014 at 11:55 AM.

  4. #4
    jasondd1 is offline Member
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    1500 total is high, what's your free?

  5. #5
    Ccdiesel is offline Associate Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasondd1 View Post
    1500 total is high, what's your free?
    I did not test free

  6. #6
    EZ E's Avatar
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    E2 is a bit high but what is your prolactin at? I would guess that is more the issue.

  7. #7
    Ccdiesel is offline Associate Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by EZ E View Post
    E2 is a bit high but what is your prolactin at? I would guess that is more the issue.
    I did not test prolactin but I am assuming that is the issue as well. But my question is if I get estrogen down via aromasin will prolactin stay high? Or is deca itself as a progestin causing problems? The way Kel explained keeping e2 in check will control those sides. Obviously I failed but I am taking aromasin and gyno feeling went away so it's concerning ed does not change at all.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by EZ E View Post
    E2 is a bit high but what is your prolactin at? I would guess that is more the issue.
    Both can be the issue. P follows E, up and down. We all respond differently to these things. Your current E and P level may have no effect whatsoever on another guy. Get your E down and P will follow. If you have a DA like Caber use that at .25 x 2 per week. Cialis in the meantime.
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  9. #9
    EZ E's Avatar
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    Everyone is different, I would start by getting the E2 down and see how you feel. If it doesn't help you can check prolactin levels and add caber or drop the deca .

    Kel beat me to it.

  10. #10
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    kelkel is offline HRT Specialist ~ AR-Platinum Elite-Hall of Famer ~ No Source Checks
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    Great minds....
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  11. #11
    Ccdiesel is offline Associate Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelkel View Post
    Great minds....
    Thanks guys. Kel I just screwed up by letting both e2 and p get high correct? I should be able to sustain deca long term without ed issues?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelkel View Post
    Great minds....
    your addy needs to hook up with my addy for a play date...

  13. #13
    Sicko's Avatar
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    OP aside from your ED how do you feel at 1500? that is crazy....I barely get to 670 with 200mg pw I don't think even when I was a youngster did I ever have that much testosterone ...

  14. #14
    Ccdiesel is offline Associate Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sicko View Post
    OP aside from your ED how do you feel at 1500? that is crazy....I barely get to 670 with 200mg pw I don't think even when I was a youngster did I ever have that much testosterone...
    Ya I am confused why it's so high but I feel great aside from the ed/libido sides. I do have a temper though haha. Blood is getting thicker so obviously those are not sustainable levels.

  15. #15
    Ccdiesel is offline Associate Member
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    I've had e2 around this level before but no ed. So you guys are saying ed is caused by prolactin? Nothing else about deca causes ed?

    Can prolactin exceed e2? Or just the combination of the two getting high create issues?

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sicko View Post
    your addy needs to hook up with my addy for a play date...
    Now there's an idea....

    Quote Originally Posted by Sicko View Post
    OP aside from your ED how do you feel at 1500? that is crazy....I barely get to 670 with 200mg pw I don't think even when I was a youngster did I ever have that much testosterone...
    I'm running 140 per week (70 x 2) and my last BW about 3 weeks ago had me at 1436 TT. Running a tad more than normal to keep my free T at the top of the scale. If you think 1500 is high imagine a 500mg cycle should get you between 3-4 K.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ccdiesel View Post
    I've had e2 around this level before but no ed. So you guys are saying ed is caused by prolactin? Nothing else about deca causes ed?

    Can prolactin exceed e2? Or just the combination of the two getting high create issues?
    You can find a few studies where they point a finger toward deca as a cause of ED. Basically though it would be related to the subsequent rise of prolactin due to E not being controlled to well, which is the root cause.
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  17. #17
    Ccdiesel is offline Associate Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelkel View Post
    Now there's an idea....



    I'm running 140 per week (70 x 2) and my last BW about 3 weeks ago had me at 1436 TT. Running a tad more than normal to keep my free T at the top of the scale. If you think 1500 is high imagine a 500mg cycle should get you between 3-4 K.



    You can find a few studies where they point a finger toward deca as a cause of ED. Basically though it would be related to the subsequent rise of prolactin due to E not being controlled to well, which is the root cause.
    Should I adjust deca down? If I get it controlled? Or is long term da necessary for me to maintain the correct levels.

  18. #18
    Ccdiesel is offline Associate Member
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    Is there no way to shorten the decanoate ester? If lowering e / p doesn't work I can't wait weeks, months for this stuff to wear off.. Should have used a short ester just in case of this

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ccdiesel View Post
    Should I adjust deca down? If I get it controlled? Or is long term da necessary for me to maintain the correct levels.
    Adjust your E down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ccdiesel View Post
    Is there no way to shorten the decanoate ester? If lowering e / p doesn't work I can't wait weeks, months for this stuff to wear off.. Should have used a short ester just in case of this
    Other than switch to NPP, which is a short ester version of Deca requiring EOD shots, no. Why would lowering your E not work? It won't take months.
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  20. #20
    Ccdiesel is offline Associate Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelkel View Post
    Adjust your E down.



    Other than switch to NPP, which is a short ester version of Deca requiring EOD shots, no. Why would lowering your E not work? It won't take months.
    Honestly Kel, just kind of freaked out by this. Not a good feeling starting a relationship and I'm suddenly broken. A lot of horror stories out there with deca so it just makes me nervous. I'll adjust e down accordingly and see how it goes. Trying to be patient.

    Thanks for all the input. It's always appreciated.

  21. #21
    kelkel's Avatar
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    No worries Cc. Just get your E and see how you feel. If your old self doesn't re-appear then maybe deca is just not your cup of tea. Like most things, "one man's meat is another man's poison."
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  22. #22
    Ccdiesel is offline Associate Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelkel View Post
    No worries Cc. Just get your E and see how you feel. If your old self doesn't re-appear then maybe deca is just not your cup of tea. Like most things, "one man's meat is another man's poison."
    I definitely feel better overall but you would think I would have had problems well before my 12th week

  23. #23
    Ccdiesel is offline Associate Member
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    Does tamoxifen by chance reduce prolactin? In theory I feel like it would, but not sure if that is a short term option.

  24. #24
    kelkel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ccdiesel View Post
    Does tamoxifen by chance reduce prolactin? In theory I feel like it would, but not sure if that is a short term option.
    Nope.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ccdiesel View Post
    Protocol:
    120mg test and deca with HCG 250iu twice weekly.
    Most people recommend twice the dosage of test to Deca . In other words, if you are injecting 120 mg of Deca, then 240 of test.

    Also, as to your blood test, how long after your last injection did you do the test? Seven days or shorter?

  26. #26
    Ccdiesel is offline Associate Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldnsedentary View Post
    Most people recommend twice the dosage of test to Deca . In other words, if you are injecting 120 mg of Deca, then 240 of test.

    Also, as to your blood test, how long after your last injection did you do the test? Seven days or shorter?
    Yes but at 1500 I would have to cut test and deca double what I cut the test.

    I tested 6 hours before my next normal injection time.

    Overall aromasin has noticeably reduced estrogen (25mgs morning and night for the past two days) but I am not sure how long it would take for prolactin to follow the downward pattern. I get more erections but ed is still present. I will have to do another blood test on Monday and include free t and prolactin.

  27. #27
    Ryanmcd is offline Associate Member
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    Deca dick strikes again. I know a lot of people that run everything and Deca and Tren seem to screw people up the most. Last thing you want to do is screw around with your hormones when you are starting a new relationship, nothing ends one faster the ED. Why not do test and fishoil and glucosamine? Or at least read up on Deca before you use it.


    Also funniest thing I ever hear from Pro bodybuilders / powerlifters is they look the best / are the strongest but almost always have ED because of everything they are on. 120-200 Test a week keep E2 good and enjoy sex. Or look great and have ED, I would take the 1st one lol

    Quote from this site

    "The moral of this story? Always use Testosterone with your Deca Durabolin ! I suggest 200mgs, minimum, to avoid impotence and sexual dysfunction. For an anabolic effect from that Testosterone, I recommend at least double that, with an equal amount of Deca Durabolin (minimum). Id also recommend taking an anti-progesteronic drug with Deca Durabolin (or at least having it on hand): Cabergoline and Bromocriptine are both good choices."
    Last edited by Ryanmcd; 05-31-2014 at 01:45 PM.

  28. #28
    Ccdiesel is offline Associate Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryanmcd View Post
    Deca dick strikes again. I know a lot of people that run everything and Deca and Tren seem to screw people up the most. Last thing you want to do is screw around with your hormones when you are starting a new relationship, nothing ends one faster the ED. Why not do test and fishoil and glucosamine? Or at least read up on Deca before you use it.


    Also funniest thing I ever hear from Pro bodybuilders / powerlifters is they look the best / are the strongest but almost always have ED because of everything they are on. 120-200 Test a week keep E2 good and enjoy sex. Or look great and have ED, I would take the 1st one lol

    Quote from this site

    "The moral of this story? Always use Testosterone with your Deca Durabolin! I suggest 200mgs, minimum, to avoid impotence and sexual dysfunction. For an anabolic effect from that Testosterone, I recommend at least double that, with an equal amount of Deca Durabolin (minimum). Id also recommend taking an anti-progesteronic drug with Deca Durabolin (or at least having it on hand): Cabergoline and Bromocriptine are both good choices."
    Well first off, there was a lot of research put into this decision. I only did so because of joint pain which at the time was considerable. If I control e2 and prolactin and still have problems yes I will definitely stop taking it. This rise in e2 was not expected because I did not have that issue before I added deca.

    Are there any better alternatives for a joint pain/healing protocol? My diet is anti inflammatory already.

  29. #29
    Ryanmcd is offline Associate Member
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    Cosamin DS is the best I have found, also get massages and stretch more, I squatted 4x a week 90% for MONTHS and never had a issue but I spend 15-30min a day working on stretching. You are using deca to cover up a problem not fix it.

    Kelly Starrett - YouTube

  30. #30
    Ccdiesel is offline Associate Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryanmcd View Post
    Cosamin DS is the best I have found, also get massages and stretch more, I squatted 4x a week 90% for MONTHS and never had a issue but I spend 15-30min a day working on stretching. You are using deca to cover up a problem not fix it.

    Kelly Starrett - YouTube
    In my case the problem is arthritis. I'm not trying to cover an injury but lessen immune activity. An anti inflammatory is only going to do so much and it can be counter productive for healing in some individiuals. Everyone is different though. Deca over has been fine until this week. But i hope that is because I let bloodwork get out of hand and stress tripled for me in the last couple weeks. Makes ed inevitable.

    Thanks for the input though. I just picked up krill oil and glucosimin ds so I will see if it provides more relief. I'm only 27 so I'm trying to keep moving without doing more damage.

  31. #31
    Ryanmcd is offline Associate Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ccdiesel View Post
    In my case the problem is arthritis. I'm not trying to cover an injury but lessen immune activity. An anti inflammatory is only going to do so much and it can be counter productive for healing in some individiuals. Everyone is different though. Deca over has been fine until this week. But i hope that is because I let bloodwork get out of hand and stress tripled for me in the last couple weeks. Makes ed inevitable.

    Thanks for the input though. I just picked up krill oil and glucosimin ds so I will see if it provides more relief. I'm only 27 so I'm trying to keep moving without doing more damage.

    I used to work at Arthritis WHQ in Atlanta so I have seen a lot of cases like this, try that DS it's great stuff and should help a lot, also fish oil 3g a day helps. Lose weight if you are over weight and watch your uric acid as well. NSAIDs if it get's bad but that is not a long term fix.

    Fish Oil:

    http://www.arthritistoday.org/arthri...e/fish-oil.php
    Last edited by Ryanmcd; 05-31-2014 at 06:03 PM.

  32. #32
    bgthailand is offline New Member
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    I had the same problem when I ran deca an found my prolactin levels were too high. I hear different advice on what is best to take to get levels down but I ended up running Pramipexole (couldn't find caber anywhere where I live) and in about a week my ed was under control. I did notice a psychological effect also cause when I would worry about ED then sure enough I would have problems staying hard. P.S. same problem when running Tren for me.

  33. #33
    Ccdiesel is offline Associate Member
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    It's been a few days now. I can tell estrogen levels are reduced. Need to do bloodwork again, but still have ed/libido issues. Cialis is worthless right now.

    So I'm hoping when I do bloodwork prolactin is high. If not deca is a problem for me and short of blood letting, a lot, I don't think there is much to do to get it out of my system. I cannot stay like this.

    I do have caber coming as well and just started b6.

  34. #34
    Ccdiesel is offline Associate Member
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    "Erectile dysfunction is attributed to the weaker action of dihydronandrolone in the penis since dihydrotestosterone is a known sexual modulator."

    So if DHN out performs DHT it would not matter what estrogen/prolactin levels were. If this didn't happen until the 12th week that would be were my test and deca doses equalled out in my system.

    So aside from stopping deca to lower it, would upping my already high test levels be a good short term idea to counter my DHN caused ED?

    Input is appreciated

  35. #35
    Ccdiesel is offline Associate Member
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    Bump

  36. #36
    Ryanmcd is offline Associate Member
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    I think going back to just test to fix your ED and try to sort it out. Again deca is just going to cover up the issues like a cortisone shot.

    Also this is talking YOUR case into consideration because you said your dating new people so ED is going to prevent you from getting a relationship going and also the psychological issues may cause issues down the road too. Get a solid relationship then tell them what you are doing so if you have ED at least they know, I am dating as well and the biggest thing woman bitch about is no sex drive and ED lol

  37. #37
    Ccdiesel is offline Associate Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryanmcd View Post
    I think going back to just test to fix your ED and try to sort it out. Again deca is just going to cover up the issues like a cortisone shot.

    Also this is talking YOUR case into consideration because you said your dating new people so ED is going to prevent you from getting a relationship going and also the psychological issues may cause issues down the road too. Get a solid relationship then tell them what you are doing so if you have ED at least they know, I am dating as well and the biggest thing woman bitch about is no sex drive and ED lol
    Ya I may be into a cycle status for a while to get my DHT numbers up enough to over come DHN from the deca. I'm starting to function again but it's slow and definitely not normal libido for me. I will try caber as well along with b6 to keep things working.

    Definitely hard dating especially when this girl is 20 non stop trying to get with me haha. She already knows what's going on because of course I didn't find out I was having issues until we were trying. Never been so angry in my life haha.

    Thanks for the input. If I can get away with a low dose of deca I will but definitely not worth it.

    To be clear estrogen/prolactin are not the key factors in ed with deca. It's DHT being replaced by DHN. No different from guys taking a dht inhibitor and getting screwed up. Dht is very important and wish I knew deca screwed with those receptors before I started.

  38. #38
    Ccdiesel is offline Associate Member
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    Any thoughts on temporary addition of masteron /primo DHT type aas to help replace deca side effects??

  39. #39
    bgthailand is offline New Member
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    just a quick note while you sort out your ED. For some reason C didn't work for me but 100mg of V did. Don't have a clue why

  40. #40
    Ccdiesel is offline Associate Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by bgthailand View Post
    just a quick note while you sort out your ED. For some reason C didn't work for me but 100mg of V did. Don't have a clue why
    Thanks for the note. I take c mainly for vascularity, and it does help ed. I may have to try v if things don't correct themselves soon. It seems like it really doesn't matter what I take, it's like a loss of feeling. I am currently attributing that to deca and the replacement of dht with DHN. I wish I hadn't used such a long ester. Going to be at least a couple weeks until I can partially function.

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