will i ever recover ?

[vinny t]

The fact that your LH and FSH are both way above range and your Testosterone is way below range....is a pretty solid indication that you are primary. You need to kick that cvnt to the curb and find a good doc.

Sorry for the language, I've been reading Marcus Diary too much lately...

IN 2010 i had been off steroids for 6 months when i had the very low libido symptoms.

I went to see an endo who did blood tests my testosterone levels came back at 1.2 SHBG 33 FSH 26 LH 13

My endo said my testes may be damaged due repeated androgen administation and he said he would re test my bloods @ 2 and 4 months to judge the pattern . i went back in 4 months time and blood tests showed no improvement in test levels so i was put on TRT . I know all this because i have it all in a letter from 2010.

So all in all it had been about 10 months from stopping steroids to starting TRT.

[vinny t]

If you are legitimately primary then you are wasting your time and your doc's is clueless. If you're primary your testicals won't suddenly decide to work unless you were misdiagnosed initially. A simple HCG stimulation test would have answered this question, but no, your doc wants you to go through all this....

Reminds me of a line from "Grumpy Old Men"......something to the effect of "You can wish in one hand and crap in the other and see which one gets filled up first"

IN 2010 i had been off steroids for 6 months when i had the very low libido symptoms.

I went to see an endo who did blood tests my testosterone levels came back at 1.2 SHBG 33 FSH 26 LH 13

My endo said my testes may be damaged due repeated androgen administation and he said he would re test my bloods @ 2 and 4 months to judge the pattern . i went back in 4 months time and blood tests showed no improvement in test levels so i was put on TRT . I know all this because i have it all in a letter from 2010.

So all in all it had been about 10 months from stopping steroids to starting TRT.

[vinny t]

I have spoken to my endos secretary today on the phone i asked for a copy of the letter that is going to go out to my gp in connection the endo appointment that i just had , the secretary as emailed me a copy i have eliminated my pefsonal details here is the letter


Division of Diabetes & Endocrinology

Consultant: Dr A Jostel Royal Blackburn Hospital
Secretary: Mrs Anali Cottam Haslingden Road
BLACKBURN
Direct line: 01254 734469 BB2 3HH
Ext: 84469
Fax: 01254 736311

Our Ref: AJ/KB/RXR0719778


30 June 2014

ENDOCRINE CLINIC


Private & confidential
Mr V



Dear M– Dob 31.12.66


Diagnosis:
Anabolic steroid misuse

I saw you in the endocrine clinic today. You have been under the care of my endocrine colleagues off and on since 2009 until March last year. The uncontrolled use of anabolic steroids did result in secondary polycythaemia which was recently rectified with repeated venesections and abstinence from testosterone and anabolic steroid injections. The fact that your haemoglobin did not rise any further, and the fact that your gonadotropin levels have only just risen into double figures, confirm that stopping exogenous testosterone excess is effective in eliminating the side-effect of polycythaemia and there is evidence of a potential for physiological recovery by reactivating your own pituitary gonadal axis.

In order to see the effectiveness of this approach, we need to let at least six months pass and reassess your hormonal profile after that time. The misuse of any anabolic steroids or testosterone in the meantime will jeopardise that natural recovery and will be evident on falling gonadotropin levels.

I will review you again in six months’ time.

Yours sincerely




Dr ANDREAS JOSTEL
Consultant Physician
(Endocrinology/Diabetes/Acute Medicine)
GMC Number: 4342247

[vinny t]

I have spoken to my endos secretary today on the phone i asked for a copy of the letter that is going to go out to my gp in connection the endo appointment that i just had , the secretary as emailed me a copy i have eliminated my pefsonal details here is the letter


Division of Diabetes & Endocrinology

Consultant: Dr A Jostel Royal Blackburn Hospital
Secretary: Mrs Anali Cottam Haslingden Road
BLACKBURN
Direct line: 01254 734469 BB2 3HH
Ext: 84469
Fax: 01254 736311

Our Ref: AJ/KB/RXR0719778


30 June 2014

ENDOCRINE CLINIC


Private & confidential
Mr V



Dear M– Dob 31.12.66


Diagnosis:
Anabolic steroid misuse

I saw you in the endocrine clinic today. You have been under the care of my endocrine colleagues off and on since 2009 until March last year. The uncontrolled use of anabolic steroids did result in secondary polycythaemia which was recently rectified with repeated venesections and abstinence from testosterone and anabolic steroid injections. The fact that your haemoglobin did not rise any further, and the fact that your gonadotropin levels have only just risen into double figures, confirm that stopping exogenous testosterone excess is effective in eliminating the side-effect of polycythaemia and there is evidence of a potential for physiological recovery by reactivating your own pituitary gonadal axis.

In order to see the effectiveness of this approach, we need to let at least six months pass and reassess your hormonal profile after that time. The misuse of any anabolic steroids or testosterone in the meantime will jeopardise that natural recovery and will be evident on falling gonadotropin levels.

I will review you again in six months’ time.

Yours sincerely




Dr ANDREAS JOSTEL
Consultant Physician
(Endocrinology/Diabetes/Acute Medicine)
GMC Number: 4342247


So in other words because TRT is causing secondary polycythemia (high red blood cells) take me off TRT and let me suffer low test symptoms for god knows how long instead of reducing my test dose increasing frequency and monitoring my hematocrit and drawing blood as and when needed which would be the better option that way i would not suffer low test and my hematocrit would be in range ..This would be better for me but not for thecost to the NHS .

[bass]

1.2 nmol/l

is that your total or free T?

[vinny t]

is that your total or free T?

Total 1.4nmol/l (10-37)

[Low Testosterone]

Your first question to your doctor should be what is the evidence that you may recover your pituitary gonadal axis? Just saying it is hardly evidence. This also sounds like a possible steroid bashing doctor. There are doctors out there, far too many who will let patients suffer because of past steroid use . They are for some reason offended by it.

Equally important, it can take 6-12 months to recover testosterone levels after a cycle even with post cycle therapy for a man in his 20's. You're in your late 40's, I don't know how extensive your steroid use was but if anything significant combined with age it seems this path your on is, well...not that great.

[vinny t]

I was diagnosed primary by his colleague from same hospital and dep in 2010 these are some notes i have pulled out from aprevious letter sent from my endo to my GP

IN 2010 i had been off steroids for 6 months when i had the very low libido symptoms.

I went to see an endo who did blood tests my testosterone levels came back at 1.2 SHBG 33 FSH 26 LH 13

My endo said my testes may be damaged due repeated androgen administation and he said he would re test my bloods @ 2 and 4 months to judge the pattern . i went back in 4 months time and blood tests showed no improvement in test levels so i was put on TRT . I know all this because i have it all in a letter from 2010.

So all in all it had been about 10 months from stopping steroids to starting TRT.

[bass]

Total 1.4nmol/l (10-37)

there you go my friend. even if you recover 100% at best you'll go back to your base which is none existence. my recommendation is look forward to TRT not backwards.

[vinny t]

there you go my friend. even if you recover 100% at best you'll go back to your base which is none existence. my recommendation is look forward to TRT not backwards.

No 1,4 nmol/l was my test levels when i first got diagnosed with trt 4 years ago after several steroid cycles my natural testosterone levels before taking steroids would have obviously been a lot higher but i dont know what they were as i never needed them testing?

[BallSak]

In answer to the title of this thread, pretty sure the consensus is no, you will not ever recover your natural testosterone .

[jump100]

Steroid use /abuse is still considered a stigma among all social classes and in medical community.

What would your doctor do if your levels don't ever return to normal levels? Is he/she aware of the consequences of low testosterone .

I am very new to TRT and I am learning more from the forum than from the so call experts. The risks of low testosterone are well established (cardiovascular diseases, diabities, depression, MS etc..).

If your levels were low before, why wouldn't they continue to be low once you recover? When your nuts say no more testosterone for you, they mean it.

[CobraMustangSVT]

Holy crap man, it really seems like this is a steroid bashing doctor that just wants to punish you or make you suffer.

Can you see another doctor? Can you ask for your care to be transferred to someone else?

[jump100]

I am also dealing with high hematocrit (52%) and based on comments in this forum, you either reduce your dose or donate blood more often.

[vinny t]

Holy crap man, it really seems like this is a steroid bashing doctor that just wants to punish you or make you suffer.

Can you see another doctor? Can you ask for your care to be transferred to someone else?

i will have to see my gp see if he will give me new referral but this will also takes months on end so be in the same boat

[vinny t]

I have spoken to my endos secretary today on the phone i asked for a copy of the letter that is going to go out to my gp in connection the endo appointment that i just had , the secretary as emailed me a copy i have eliminated my pefsonal details here is the letter


Division of Diabetes & Endocrinology

Consultant: Dr A Jostel Royal Blackburn Hospital
Secretary: Mrs Anali Cottam Haslingden Road
BLACKBURN
Direct line: 01254 734469 BB2 3HH
Ext: 84469
Fax: 01254 736311

Our Ref: AJ/KB/RXR0719778


30 June 2014

ENDOCRINE CLINIC


Private & confidential
Mr V



Dear M– Dob 31.12.66


Diagnosis:
Anabolic steroid misuse

I saw you in the endocrine clinic today. You have been under the care of my endocrine colleagues off and on since 2009 until March last year. The uncontrolled use of anabolic steroids did result in secondary polycythaemia which was recently rectified with repeated venesections and abstinence from testosterone and anabolic steroid injections. The fact that your haemoglobin did not rise any further, and the fact that your gonadotropin levels have only just risen into double figures, confirm that stopping exogenous testosterone excess is effective in eliminating the side-effect of polycythaemia and there is evidence of a potential for physiological recovery by reactivating your own pituitary gonadal axis.

In order to see the effectiveness of this approach, we need to let at least six months pass and reassess your hormonal profile after that time. The misuse of any anabolic steroids or testosterone in the meantime will jeopardise that natural recovery and will be evident on falling gonadotropin levels.

I will review you again in six months’ time.

Yours sincerely




Dr ANDREAS JOSTEL
Consultant Physician
(Endocrinology/Diabetes/Acute Medicine)
GMC Number: 4342247
Anabolic steroid misuse
that's is not the diagnosis. the diagnosis is hypogonadism, anabolic steroid misuse is not a medical diagnosis.

uncontrolled use of anabolic steroids did result in secondary polycythaemia
the secondary polycythaemia was caused by TRT, not uncontrolled use of anabolic steroids.

evidence of a potential for physiological recovery by reactivating your own pituitary gonadal axis
rising LH and FSH without improvement in T level is not an improvement of HTPA

The misuse of any anabolic steroids or testosterone in the meantime will jeopardise that natural recovery and will be evident on falling gonadotropin levels.
this sounded like a threat. not professional

Last edited by Theseus; Yesterday at 03:35 PM.

[vinny t]

I have stopped TRT now for 6 months but i dont seem to have lost any muscle size or strength at all the only thing i have noticed is my libido has completeley gone .

I have done some reerching and come across this .


LABORATORY
CONFIRMATION

Detection of hypogonadism is often challenging. Although the clinical signs are readily identified in males who have not undergone puberty, they are far less apparent in men who have lost testicular function after reaching sexual maturity. This is largely because many testosterone -dependent physical features, such as muscle mass, beard, and genital development, are maintained long after the onset of testicular failure. As a result, the currently accepted diagnostic criteria are both the presence of hypogonadal symptoms and laboratory evidence of a subnormal serum testosterone level.

So maybe i will keep my muscle mass for a lot longer .

[vinny t]