clomid for low t

[teedoff]

So bit of back story first.

Male 56
215 lbs

About 3 years ago I was talking to my PCP, who isnt a dr, but a PA since not many Dr's actually work in PCP clinics it seems anymore.

I was telling her that I always feel like I never get enough sleep. She of course wanted to do a sleep study, which I refused since I had one done around 2000 and was told I have sleep apnea. Yeah I should wear the mask but dont for various reasons. I was told if I lose weight it would probably go away, which I did.

Anyway, they did blood work and said I had low test. I didnt have any other symptoms that I was aware of from low t, but she said that fatigue was one symptom and getting my test levels back up again might help.

Well, fast forward almost 3 years and one pump of gel a day, and it hasn't helped at all with the fatigue. I feel like the side affects from the gel have been worse than not taking. I now have significant atrophy, very little semen and now have developed some ED.

I made an appointment with a urologist two weeks ago and went over all this with him. Of course he said the ED wasn't a side affect of the gel, rather just my age, but this was like an overnight change. He went over some options with me, but mostly other forms of test delivery like pills, injectables and an implant. He also wrote me a script for tadalafil. He also advised me to start using two pumps of gel and see if that makes a difference. Been doing that for the last 2 weeks. Can't really tell any difference so far.

So to my point. I asked him about clomid as an alternative to test gel or just test in general. He kinda brushed over it and that was that. I think its weird though. Doesn't seem to be any downside to taking clomid for low t as it doesn't suppress your body's own natural production, but rather enhances it!

So wondering if anyone here has gone this route. Pros, cons?

I also realize clomid wouldnt be covered by my insurance like the gel is now, but clomid is pretty cheap from what I remember.

Any tips would be greatly appreciated.

ps I dont have my latest blood work, but can get them if needed.

[Cylon357]

Yes, I went this route initially. Good for 90 days, then the zuclomiphene kicks in and back to meh.

You have a couple of options.

If you want to go the SERM route, look at enclomiphene instead of clomid. You have been shut down for 3 years, though, and I don't like the odds of this being effective.

If you want to continue with a topical, do two things. First, have the doc switch from gel, which is garbage, to a compounded cream. Get the 200mg cream. Second, add hcg into your protocol. 500 to 750iu per week will likely help.

Bonus option: switch to the needle. This is similar to cream in that it will shut you down, but much better absorbed. Use hcg as suggested with the cream.

Lots of folks just jump straight to the needle. Nothing wrong with that, it is proven effective, and if you are going to blast occasionally, it makes the most sense. But creams are a legit option for some men. Serms do work for some, but I don't like your odds. Still, it could be worth a go.

[teedoff]

Thanks for the reply.

So to clarify, my test levels were at the normal range last I had it checked. I wanna say it was around 700?

This new Dr said then I must absorb test well, since the half does I was one got my levels to normal range. He said try two pumps, which is the full does I think. Even if my levels went up to 1000 with a full dose, that wouldnt be bad. But like I said, I dont like what the gel has done to me physically with no apparent good affects.

So you think being shut down for this long is irreversible?

[Cylon357]

Thanks for the reply.

So to clarify, my test levels were at the normal range last I had it checked. I wanna say it was around 700?

This new Dr said then I must absorb test well, since the half does I was one got my levels to normal range. He said try two pumps, which is the full does I think. Even if my levels went up to 1000 with a full dose, that wouldnt be bad. But like I said, I dont like what the gel has done to me physically with no apparent good affects.

So you think being shut down for this long is irreversible?

It may not be irreversible, but I don't like your odds. If you had been using hcg for those 3 years, you would have better chances of recovery. It also would have prevented testicular atrophy. I recommend adding it into your protocol ASAP.

We are getting a little ahead of ourselves, though the addition of HCG is a good step. You may find that with it, your test levels are exactly where you want them to be with the gel. You will also likely find the boys all plumped back up.

What would be beneficial is to see current blood work. This should ideally include total and free t, shbg, dht, tsh, estradiol sensitive, cbc and lipid panel. This would provide a very good picture of your hormonal profile and overall health. It would also be a good idea to let us know what else you might be taking.... there are a lot of potential causes for ED. High / low estradiol being a common culprit, and since it sounds like you do not use an AI, high would be the more likely option here.

Are you taking any other drugs, like finasteride or anti-depressants or ?

[Cylon357]

Go read this for info on Clomid vs Enclomiphene. It may help you make your decision if you decide to go the SERM route.

[teedoff]

Thanks. I dont have my current blood work available. I think my 6 month draw is in the next month or so. I may have a copy of the last one or perhaps the previous...so a year ago.

I am not taking any other meds. My gear history has been limited. Two cycles of anavar only and that was early last year and then the year before. My plans were to do a "real" cycle this year, but ive let my diet go the last few months, so holding off.

It also seems my source has moved or shut down. So will have to research some new sources for SERMS if I go that route.

[teedoff]

You dont mention a dosage on the enclomiphene IF i can find it. I'm seeing 25mg caps and 50mg caps. Also see it in liquid form, but not sure the dosage per ml.

[Cylon357]

You dont mention a dosage on the enclomiphene IF i can find it. I'm seeing 25mg caps and 50mg caps. Also see it in liquid form, but not sure the dosage per ml.

I didn't give a dosage. You can find common dosages in this study linked from the posting I mentioned above: https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01386606

You CAN find it on this board if you know how to look. While this is not a source board, a bit of searching here can find things to look for. In addition, you may find more info on some place like reddit, though be prepared to walk through a mile of dumb-assery there.

Your case is different from the "normal" enclomiphene candidate, though. You have been shutdown for 3 years, that is going to mean you may need a "power pct" protocol, but maybe not.

It seems like you are wanting to get off the gel and on to SERM therapy. If that is the case, then the following is what I would do:
1 - Start adding HCG to your current protocol ASAP
2 - Keep the HCG and current gel protocol for 2 months. You may like where this puts you and want to continue this protocol.
3 - If you then want to try SERM based HRT, try a "regular" pct first. Enclomiphene at 25mg/day for the first week, 12.5mg a day for the next 3 weeks. Nolvadex at 10mg per week for the first week, 5mg per day for the next 3 weeks, then you are done with it.
4 - after PCT, continue with Enclo at 12.5mg per day, take blood work 2 months later.

Enclo at 12.5 mg per day will be your initial HRT dose.

After that first blood work, you will have more to go on.

Be advised: it is possible you will not be able to restart natural production. If that is the case, your only choices are gels, cream and / or injections.

Also, there is no SERM that is going to overpower the suppression that comes from AAS. So, the notion of blasting and cruising is not something SERM based HRT really allows. In other words, even a so called "mild" steroid like Anavar will overpower Enclo and you end up needing a test base.

I don't mention this to discourage you, just to provide all the info I can. I have been on SERM based HRT for 3 years, because, like you, I find the IDEA of not being shutdown to be beneficial. More and more though, the benefits of being able to blast or even run a long term low dose of something like nandralone or proviron has a lot of appeal to me. Those types of things make the perceived negatives of being shutdown seem worth it overall, but I have yet to officially make the jump from SERM to exogenous test.

[teedoff]

Ok so an update to this.

The owner of my gym turned me on to a local hormone clinic. It's owned and run by a bodybuilder and he seems legit and accredited.

Had blood work done there last monday, and had my follow up consult with him today.

Posted screens of my labs for reference.

I discussed my history and the issues I had with the gel I referenced here. He pretty much said the exact same thing you said.

So, he said I could try the enclomiphine and he wrote me a script for test C and gave me some needles and a couple of syringes to boot.

I'll try the enclomiphene and test for a month or so, then pull labs again. I'm not starting this until after my follow up with the urologist 2 weeks from today though.

He also said if I wasn't where I need to be after this 6 weeks, that he can write me a script for HCG which I can also get locally.

Here are my labs.

[Cylon357]

I have actually ended my use of enclomiphene. It seemed to bring a host of other problems, the main one being inflammation. This was from TMC, so as close to pharma as you can get. I will be moving to cream and hcg through the doc, with a few add ons of my own.

I mention this to say that it seems that SERMs are not generally a viable long term option, but GREAT for short term usage. <-- This was known by the world, but I had to prove it to myself...

[teedoff]

I have actually ended my use of enclomiphene. It seemed to bring a host of other problems, the main one being inflammation. This was from TMC, so as close to pharma as you can get. I will be moving to cream and hcg through the doc, with a few add ons of my own.

I mention this to say that it seems that SERMs are not generally a viable long term option, but GREAT for short term usage. <-- This was known by the world, but I had to prove it to myself...

Ugh. Lol. Well if I can get my nuts back to normal or close to it, then I'll look at options. I just didn't wanna pin three times a week for the hcg. Is that normal for hcg?

[Cylon357]

Ugh. Lol. Well if I can get my nuts back to normal or close to it, then I'll look at options. I just didn't wanna pin three times a week for the hcg. Is that normal for hcg?

You can pin once a week if you want, but you increase the risk of sides with a large dose like that. 3x a week is fine and what I will be doing for the forseeable future, but it really is a trivial subq thing. Yes, it would be nice to have another option, but not yet.

[teedoff]

You can pin once a week if you want, but you increase the risk of sides with a large dose like that. 3x a week is fine and what I will be doing for the forseeable future, but it really is a trivial subq thing. Yes, it would be nice to have another option, but not yet.

I was just reading about HCG sublingual. You know anything about this?

[Cylon357]

I was just reading about HCG sublingual. You know anything about this?

I don't. That could be interesting but I'm not overly hopeful...