Need advice 29 y/o low T and E2

**fossilk1** · 03-16-2018, 08:36 AM

Originally Posted by kelkel

Pin your hcg Monday, Thursday and Saturday. If it were me I'd probably just start with twice per week (on test injection days) and go from there. Keep it simple.

Meaning twice of the HCG like what was mentioned earlier?

**kelkel** · 03-16-2018, 09:28 AM

I don't recall what was mentioned earlier. I prefer to inject hcg the same days as test. Get things all done at the same time.

**Youthful55guy** · 03-16-2018, 12:10 PM

This is another reason I like the E3D protocol. Inject both T and HCG on the same days and keep it simple. The other main benefit of the E3D protocol is consistent time between injections. Labs can be drawn on any injection day, not just a single day of the week for consistency.

Regarding waiting to layer in HCG, Kel has it right. It is important to make changes slowly and methodically when doing HRT and always follow them up with labs after about 6 weeks to determine you next change. Manipulating multiple variables at a time is a recipe for disaster. likewise, so is not getting proper follow up labs. How many guys do we get in this forum that have crashed their E without proper labs? I can't even begin to count!

**fossilk1** · 03-19-2018, 05:33 AM

I see makes sense.

I have been doing a lot of reading around, but long term TRT, I know Hemocrit and BP need to be monitored, but is there proven studies of leydig cells desensitized? I see a lot of men complaining of libido and ED around the 6-8 year mark, and this becomes a permanent symptom? I know a lot factors play into this, but has anyone been on TRT longer than 20 years and have a normal life? I know the symptoms of low Testosterone outweighs TRT/HRT... but has there ever been an individual starting TRT at a very young age have a fruitful life to 80’s

Granted that individual monitors and regulates their levels perfectly with a good doctor which understands TRT.

I only raise this question because I see topics of teenagers experiencing low T which some of them might have a syndrome, Diseases, and benign tumors of the pituitary (which I believe you have KelKel) contributing to it. Including myself at age 29 which labs show I may be on supplemented testosterone for the rest of my life due to an unknown cause at the hypothalamus level, communicating to the pituitary.

I’m still waiting on my MRI which is on the 23rd, crossing my fingers.

**Youthful55guy** · 03-19-2018, 08:23 AM

It's important to separate out several internet misconceptions regarding the Ledig cells.

1) The term Ledig cell desensitization is often used by those who somehow believe that continued use of HCG will somehow down regulate LH receptors in the testicles. There is absolutely no evidence to back this up. The misconception probably originated because LH is secreted in a pulsatile fashion. The reason it is pulsatile is that the pituitary GnRH receptors do indeed rapidly down regulate in response to constant GnRH infusion. I actually did some of the original research in this area (many many many years ago). However, I've seen nothing to support that LH receptors down regulate. My own experience with HCG suggests this is not true. So there is absolutely no need to cycle HCG as some proponents of this theory propose.

2) When one is on long term TRT without HCG, the testicles will atrophy to a pre-pubertal condition. The question is can they be awaken again once the individual comes off TRT and/or starts HCG. There is no answer to this question that I am aware of. I don't think anyone knows for sure if there is permanent damage to the testicles.

3) When one goes on TRT without the use of HCG, one typically discovers after several months that the volume of the ejaculate begins to decrease. I've heard guys on long term TRT without HCG describe it as just a few small spurts at orgasm. While it may be true (I've never gone without HCG for more than 1 month), this has absolutely nothing to do with testicular atrophy. The testicles only contribute about 5% of the seminal volume. The vast majority come from the Seminal Vesicles (~50%) and the Prostate (~30%). However, these two glands are lined with both androgen and LH receptors and need both types of hormones to function properly. Sow without an LH signal (from HCG while on TRT), the glands dry up.

**fossilk1** · 03-19-2018, 09:12 AM

Originally Posted by Youthful55guy

It's important to separate out several internet misconceptions regarding the Ledig cells.

1) The term Ledig cell desensitization is often used by those who somehow believe that continued use of HCG will somehow down regulate LH receptors in the testicles. There is absolutely no evidence to back this up. The misconception probably originated because LH is secreted in a pulsatile fashion. The reason it is pulsatile is that the pituitary GnRH receptors do indeed rapidly down regulate in response to constant GnRH infusion. I actually did some of the original research in this area (many many many years ago). However, I've seen nothing to support that LH receptors down regulate. My own experience with HCG suggests this is not true. So there is absolutely no need to cycle HCG as some proponents of this theory propose.

2) When one is on long term TRT without HCG, the testicles will atrophy to a pre-pubertal condition. The question is can they be awaken again once the individual comes off TRT and/or starts HCG. There is no answer to this question that I am aware of. I don't think anyone knows for sure if there is permanent damage to the testicles.

3) When one goes on TRT without the use of HCG, one typically discovers after several months that the volume of the ejaculate begins to decrease. I've heard guys on long term TRT without HCG describe it as just a few small spurts at orgasm. While it may be true (I've never gone without HCG for more than 1 month), this has absolutely nothing to do with testicular atrophy. The testicles only contribute about 5% of the seminal volume. The vast majority come from the Seminal Vesicles (~50%) and the Prostate (~30%). However, these two glands are lined with both androgen and LH receptors and need both types of hormones to function properly. Sow without an LH signal (from HCG while on TRT), the glands dry up.

Seems reasonable when broken down that way.

So do you see someone living a long normal or better life with long term TRT (Cypionate & HCG)? As long as they are consistent with blood work and have a good doctor.

**kelkel** · 03-19-2018, 10:25 AM

Originally Posted by fossilk1

Seems reasonable when broken down that way.

So do you see someone living a long normal or better life with long term TRT (Cypionate & HCG)? As long as they are consistent with blood work and have a good doctor.

Yes. As opposed to sinking T levels and rising E levels as we age, which go hand in hand with a plethora of problems in men.

**Ephemeral** · 03-19-2018, 08:02 PM

Originally Posted by Youthful55guy

It's important to separate out several internet misconceptions regarding the Ledig cells.

1) The term Ledig cell desensitization is often used by those who somehow believe that continued use of HCG will somehow down regulate LH receptors in the testicles. There is absolutely no evidence to back this up. The misconception probably originated because LH is secreted in a pulsatile fashion. The reason it is pulsatile is that the pituitary GnRH receptors do indeed rapidly down regulate in response to constant GnRH infusion. I actually did some of the original research in this area (many many many years ago). However, I've seen nothing to support that LH receptors down regulate. My own experience with HCG suggests this is not true. So there is absolutely no need to cycle HCG as some proponents of this theory propose.

2) When one is on long term TRT without HCG, the testicles will atrophy to a pre-pubertal condition. The question is can they be awaken again once the individual comes off TRT and/or starts HCG. There is no answer to this question that I am aware of. I don't think anyone knows for sure if there is permanent damage to the testicles.

3) When one goes on TRT without the use of HCG, one typically discovers after several months that the volume of the ejaculate begins to decrease. I've heard guys on long term TRT without HCG describe it as just a few small spurts at orgasm. While it may be true (I've never gone without HCG for more than 1 month), this has absolutely nothing to do with testicular atrophy. The testicles only contribute about 5% of the seminal volume. The vast majority come from the Seminal Vesicles (~50%) and the Prostate (~30%). However, these two glands are lined with both androgen and LH receptors and need both types of hormones to function properly. Sow without an LH signal (from HCG while on TRT), the glands dry up.

My doc told me that the leydig cells can actually become more sensitive after long term HCG use, and one can even get by with only 750-1000 IU a week (without any T), which sounded dubious to me, contradicting what I've been reading on this forum. Any chance he's right?

**Youthful55guy** · 03-19-2018, 08:36 PM

Originally Posted by fossilk1

Seems reasonable when broken down that way.

So do you see someone living a long normal or better life with long term TRT (Cypionate & HCG)? As long as they are consistent with blood work and have a good doctor.

Ah, yes. I live a pretty normal life. Been on my current protocol for well over 6 years. The alternative is feeling like crap all the time, so I'll go with option #2.

**Youthful55guy** · 03-19-2018, 08:38 PM

Originally Posted by Ephemeral

My doc told me that the leydig cells can actually become more sensitive after long term HCG use, and one can even get by with only 750-1000 IU a week (without any T), which sounded dubious to me, contradicting what I've been reading on this forum. Any chance he's right?

Yes, it's dubious advice. Most docs that know their TRT will never prescribe an HCG only protocol.

**fossilk1** · 03-21-2018, 04:31 PM

How do you guys combat acne... since high school I have had this scalps acne as a result of wearing hats and helmets and the shit will never go away. I wash my hair with hibiclens (which I got the idea from a dermatologist) just I have to be extra careful with my eyes. And Clindamycin Phosphate Foam which I apply after a shower.

Oh and apparently I still have an infection from my LIS surgery for the fissure. CRS gave me Cipro and Flagyl to treat it. Cipro 10 days, and Flagyl 14 days. Got my probiotics (5x culture) ready, cranberry juice, and yogurt.

If that doesn’t work I got back in the OR and the CRS reopens part of my incision site and cleans it out, and allows the healing process again to close.

I have been through too much shit, sick of it. Finally I’ll be on TRT and life will change.

**fossilk1** · 03-28-2018, 03:44 AM

UPDATE:

So great news, MRI was clean, the brain checked out to be normal and there was nothing unremarkable.

In regards to the antibiotics above, I decided not to take them and continue to see if I can heal naturally.

I am now starting my TRT with 50mg of Cypionate twice a week. And HCG 350iu 3 times a week. I think I gonna try this for a few months and revisit the kick start with Clomid. Seeing in the past I messed up my PCT by taking an AI and crashed my estrogen. I also might through in some Cytomel 5mcg twice a week to help my RT3 levels.