What do you make of this lr3 review?

[supersteve]

Not sure where this came from so I can't give credit. Seems to talk about the some of the same things pinnacle was told by the scientist from gropep.

Product: 1mg Lyophilized Long R3 IGF-1

From:
Date: Friday 17 February, 2006

Review:

It was tested by a ph.d chemist at an indepedant lab, here is what was found.


The test is conclusive. There is BSA in the IGF-1 and a buttload of it! The lighter signal for HSA may come from the cross-reactivity I mentioned (very likely).

We also tested it to see if it was

1. receptor grade
2. human IGF-1.

There was initially some ambiguity as to whether some of the IGF was porcine (pig) because of some slight cross reactivities. The diluted experiment clarified that. It is human and it is receptor grade. unfortunately, we ran out of sample before we could do the diluted run to determine if the HSA signal was just cross reactivity related or if there is actually a little HSA in there along with the gobs of BSA. I am 99% certain there is no HSA and here is why

Pharmaceutical preps of IGF-1 do exist but they are the whole intact protein, not just the binding region (receptor grade). No receptor grade IGF or other receptor grade protein was ever developed for human use or even animal use. Receptor grade proteins are strictly used to determine binding constants and stuff like that in a petre dish. Since receptor grade was never intended for human use, it is produced in growth medium that contains BSA as a stabilizer (BSA is cheap). There would be no incentive to use more expensive HSA to stabilize something not intended for human use. When it was lyophylized (freeze dried), the BSA was included to stabilize the LR3 IGF-1. Without it, the IGF-1 would just fall apart in storage.

******** does not make this stuff. There are only a handful of places that do make it (5 to be exact). He has to buy it from one of those companies. They all likely use BSA to stabilize their product.

This stuff isn't fit to inject into an animal, little lone a human being.

I will try to be more clear in my expanation here: ******** stuff was applied to a plate with BSA antibodies in one column and HSA antibodies in another separate column. When ******** stuff was applied to antibodies for BSA they lit up like Chernobyl! Definite positive for BSA. There was also a lighter reaction with the HSA antibodies. This was caused by our overloading the sample and causing a little cross reactivity. BSA and HSA are very similar proteins after all.

Just for argument's sake, let's say that it was HSA and no BSA was present. What we would have seen is the opposite. The HSA antibodies would have lit up brightly and the BSA antibodies would have had a fainter reaction (due to cross-reactivity).

DO you see what I am saying here? There is absolutely no doubt that ******** LR3 IGF-1 contains BSA and a LOT of it. 100% sure; stake my life and reputation on it!

There is some slight chance that there is ALSO a little HSA in it. Since we couldn't do the diluted run, we can't rule that out completely. I really doubt that is the case though. Ultimately though, it doesn't matter. The fact that there are high levels of BSA in it make this product dangerous to life and health. Any small amounts of HSA present won't change that.

******** has lied to you and everyone else about nearly every aspect of this product.

******** SAYS: receptor grade stuff incorporates the whole sequence for IGF-1 with a 13 amino acid side chain to prolong biological half life. It was developed for human use and is the cleanest, best stuff to use for maximum results. (paraphrasing of course)

THE TRUTH: Receptor grade IGF-1 is not the whole intact protein and was never intended to use in live animals or humans. It does not possess the same biological activity of native IGF-1 and in fact, may actually hinder one from utilizing their own IGF-1. It can only be detrimental to growth; not helpful to it.

******** SAYS: The diluent he sells is the best one because it contains the binding protein neccesary for stabilizing the IGF-1 (thus the BP in the name). All other diluents are inferior.

THE TRUTH: The diluent he sells contains no protein of any kind. It is just salt water. The BP in the name simply refers to the grade of s****e. Fisher Scientific sells no less than five different grades including USP and BP grades. BP refers to British Pharmacopeia (USP stands for US Pharmacopeia).

******** SAYS: The product is completely human grade and contains no BSA (as per PM's to Skyefire and myself on Superior Muscle).

THE TRUTH: The product, in fact, contains an enormous amount of BSA and even if it didn't, it could not be considered "human grade" since receptor grade proteins were not developed for use in ANY living thing, little lone humans.

Something to keep in mind from one of my earlier posts on this subject. These growth mediums stabilized with BSA contain many more bovine proteins and hormones than just BSA. What they do is just add plain old bovine serum (or fetal bovine calf serum). The serum contains all the proteins and hormones you would expect to find in cow blood. Albumin is just the major protein fraction found in blood so there is more of that than any of the others. There is still going to be things like bovine insulin , bovine growth hormone , etc. A similar danger of immune response exists for all of these bovine proteins; not just the BSA.

Remember, mice injected with HSA DIE WITHIN 4 OR 5 DAYS due to massive hemmorages in their kidneys. This is due to an immune response where they begin forming antibodies to mouse serum albumin. This causes their blood to start clotting all over the place. Apparently, this first happens in their kidneys and the blood clots rupture blood vessels and they bleed to death before further immune response can clot the rest of their blood up. Looks pretty damn painful actually.....

[JohnnyB]

It's not a good thing that's for sure, think about it BSA, what if some mad cow disease got in there and a human injected it, not good. What I sad is a "what if" I'm not saying all BSA contains mad cow disease.

JohnnyB

[TheNextBigThing]

I have only done two cycles of IGF and that scares the crap out of me. I probably won't be using it again.

[Logan13]

Not sure where this came from so I can't give credit. Seems to talk about the some of the same things pinnacle was told by the scientist from gropep.

where did you find this steve?

[inevitable]

woah. thats a little eye opener. and to think i am goin to be starting my first igf-lr3 cycle on monday

[SPIKE]

where did you find this steve?

BUMP for Steve.................

[j martini]

BUMP for Steve.................

I saw that over on anabolic minds.

[RUI-Products]

sorry guys this is a bunch of crap the guy who wrote that is an idiot. BSA is in HCG and alot of things. THe igf tested is the only human igf made by Gropep. The guy who clames to be a scientist is not and is clueless. HE approched a board owner trying to setup a shop them dropped this crap. Do a search on BSA. BSA is used because it is easy to and cheep to cultavate. Every other human igf has the same BSA in it.

dose this really sound like a " buttload" of crap. It is not a lab test. This is yet another try because the competition can't compete.

[RedBaron]

I would be really careful downplaying the significance of BSA. If you do actually do a search for bovine serum albumin use in humans, you will come up with hundreds of hits stating NOT INTENDED FOR USE IN HUMANS.

The other hits you will come up with are in-depth discussions about the possibility of the spread of BSE due to the use of BSA in biopharmaceutical manufacturing, and discussions about how stem-cell research has been extremely crippled due to the tainting of the usable cells due to the use of BSA ... thus crippling any chance for human trials.

You need to carefully separate the intended use of Gropep's Human grade LR3 IGF-1 ... which is for cell culture lab experiments ONLY. There is not a Gropep employee nor will there be that will tell you to inject their product into humans. Part of the reason is the instructions that come with cell culture use. BSA is a godsend in a lab environment, and in high enough grade is even used in the processes that manufacture some oral medications, but with respect to its role in injecting into humans you are going to find only single isolated proteins from the serum used for immunizations ... to intentionally trigger an immune response from you. The only other uses of BSA usually pass through the GI tract ... not through injection to the bloodstream.

There is a great cry from the medical and scientific community with respect to BSA. It is only used in VERY controlled situations .... on cell cultures ... and with traceable safeguards to be able to verify both its origin and its purity. Those are the same valid concerns with any product that is being considered for human use.

Anyway, that is my bit on BSA. I certainly wouldn't shrug it off too lightly ... none of the medical and scientific community does ... nor does Gropep. Just ask them about injecting their LR3 and see what their answer will be. I believe an e-mail correspondence from them with that specific reply is posted elsewhere in this forum.

While I firmly believe that LR3 has some great potential for treating several conditions and for bodybuilders everywhere, we have to balance that excitment with safe product and use. We certainly don't want anyone put at risk.

[Pinnacle]

Anyway, that is my bit on BSA. I certainly wouldn't shrug it off too lightly ... none of the medical and scientific community does ... nor does Gropep. Just ask them about injecting their LR3 and see what their answer will be. I believe an e-mail correspondence from them with that specific reply is posted elsewhere in this forum.

.

Here it is RB..this was a response they gave me when I had questions in regards to the safetly of LR3 and if THEIR PRODUCT was actually available on the market.

I also believe the actual lab test has been posted on boards as well in regards to the above topic.

Thank you for your e-mail and additional information.

I will split your questions up into:

1. Does IGF-I work for bodybuilding?
2. Is LONG[TM]R[3]IGF-I available?
3. Does LONG[TM]R[3]IGF-I work for bodybuilding?

I have split it into parts for one very, very important reason. IGF-I
is a natural molecule, the same molecule your body makes. In contrast,
LONG[TM]R[3]IGF-I was created by GroPep and is an artificial molecule
that has been extensively modified from the original IGF-I. Due to
these modifications LONG[TM]R[3]IGF-I has a totally different shape and
different biological properties to the original IGF-I molecule. There is
a crazy belief within the athletic and bodybuilding fraternity that
IGF-I and LONG[TM]R[3]IGF-I are the same or that results published about
IGF-I automatically apply to LONG[TM]R[3]IGF-I. This is total rubbish
and a very dangerous assumption. LONG[TM]R[3]IGF-I IS NOT THE SAME
MOLECULE AS IGF-I AND DOES NOT BEHAVE LIKE IGF-I. It is like saying
that dioxin has the same effects as dioxan because they are spelt the
same! This is a very big and potentially deadly mistake - just ask the
people of Seveso in Italy! So in the following discussion when I say
IGF-I I mean IGF-I. I DO NOT mean IGF-I AND LONG[TM]R[3]IGF-I. If I am
referring to LONG[TM]R[3]IGF-I only I will say so.

So with that very important point made, let's deal with your questions.

1. Does IGF-I work for bodybuilding?
I know of no scientific publication that shows selective muscle build up
following IGF-I administration in any species other than the rat. In
fact, due to various complications and side effects, systemic
administration of IGF-I has often been found in clinical trials to
decrease rather than increase lean muscle mass. So from a muscle
building point of view IGF-I doesn't work. Even the more reputable Body
Building magazines say so. IGF-I administration has only been shown to
increase lean muscle mass in rats, not in humans. Furthermore, to the
best of my knowledge, all the clinical trials that have been undertaken
using systemic IGF-I for building muscle mass have either been
terminated prematurely due to adverse reactions or have not proven
effective.


2. Is LONG[TM]R[3]IGF-I available to the bodybuilding community?
As I mentioned to you before, LONG[TM]R[3]IGF-I is a GroPep Patented
product manufactured exclusively by GroPep for use in Cell Culture.
GroPep is the world's only manufacturer of LONG[TM]R[3]IGF-I, so the
sale and supply of LONG[TM]R[3]IGF-I is very carefully monitored and we
know exactly where it goes and to who. Our shipments do not go missing.
If any is getting to the bodybuilding community and I doubt it is, then
it would only be a tiny amount, barely enough to treat a mouse let alone
a person.

Bodybuilders would not have access to significant amounts of IGF-I or
LONG[TM]R[3]IGF-I for one simple reason - there is very little of it
manufactured. More IGF-I or LONG[TM]R[3]IGF-I is supposedly available
in any gym, on any street in any city, or through any website at any
time than we or all the world's manufacturers of IGF-I could make in 10
years working round the clock. What is on offer therefore, cannot
possibly be IGF-I or LONG[TM]R[3]IGF-I. Furthermore we have never found
IGF-I or LONG[TM]R[3]IGF-I in any " href="http://anabolicreview-research.com/shop/default.php?cPath=27">vials, vials that do not contain what is
claimed on the label. What is in these

[Pinnacle]

For some reason I can't get the full response to post..here it is in this thread

IGF question for Jhonny B and Pinn

[supersteve]

I got it from over on abolex.

Another memember said the article was based on the IGF-1 sold on this site (i.e. Lion's receptor grade)

[rodge]

i opened this thread as i find that things as serious this should be discussed. the health of our board members means more to me then lion's bussines. how ever i wish to see this thread been kept decent.

-rodge

[RedBaron]

I don't see any reason at all for this thread to be anything less than decent. The fact is that it seems that our sponser's LR3 currently has BSA in it based on the claimed test and the sponser's own admission above ... that is a really bad thing. But there is also a positive spin to this. It was also shown to truly be human receptor grade LR3 ... a fantastic thing and a confirmation that what he said was receptor grade LR3 truly was.

I think what the community would like to see is a commitment from the sponser to rectify removing BSA from the product. There are several serum free media and many other options at his disposal. With that modification I have no doubt that both his financial interests and the safety of the bodybuilding community can be greatly served.

[goose]

i opened this thread as i find that things as serious this should be discussed. the health of our board members means more to me then lion's bussines. how ever i wish to see this thread been kept decent.

-rodge

Well said,thanks

[basskiller]

.......................

[RUI-Products]

we are not selling it for human consumption. We are not just dismising it. Guess you think HCG is toxic too?

[oswaldosalcedo]

still with the LR3 affair? ..............lol.........

staying decent,sober laugh of course.

[Heywood Jablome]

we are not selling it for human consumption. We are not just dismising it. Guess you think HCG is toxic too?

That is a pretty lame way to back out of that. Technically none of your products are for human consumption, but I'm sure someone, somewhere has diluted it and injected it in themselves. I doubt that even a small minority of the people purchasing that product are using it for rat myoblast studies or lab work.

And I know you can't admit it here, but you know that people are using it on themselves. The best thing to do is probably stop selling the product if it indeed has high amounts of BSA. It is interesting though that the company that owns the trademark and originally created long r3 IGF-1 denies using any animal products either during manufacture or in the final product.

So the possibility is raised that 1) The test is BS. 2) You're getting your IGF-1 from someone other than GroPep.

You don't seem to be denying that your IGF has BSA in it and I can prove that GroPep doesn't use BSA in their long r3 IGF-1 products - so it must be option 2.

[D-END]

CAN someone please tell me why IGF-1r3 is no longer on Lions list of research chemicals. Could this be because of the recent BSA rumors? I would like to know because I just spent 500 bucks on 2mg and now I don't even know if its safe to take.

[Gear]

CAN someone please tell me why IGF-1r3 is no longer on Lions list of research chemicals. Could this be because of the recent BSA rumors? I would like to know because I just spent 500 bucks on 2mg and now I don't even know if its safe to take.

Your best bet is to speak with Lion and ask him why the LR3 verson of IGF is no longer available. And yes, it is possible that the IGFLR3 on Lion's list could be a health risk. Did you get your IGF from Lion?

-Gear

[RUI-Products]

Listen to this. I will only say it one more time. The receptor grade IGF-1 LR3 we sold is safe. The idiot who claimed to be a scientist isn't a scientist. If He was don't you think he would have posted a value. A level of some sort instead of refering to cross this and that. He was just another guy trying to break into the biz. THere is only one formula of true Human IGF-1 LR3. THere are different levels of purity. THe Receptor grade is the highest quality. We have sold out of the receptor grade. It sold very slowlyWe may not bling it back it will be avalable for special order. We will have Media grade in Powder form later this week. THe price will be much more affordable.

[D-END]

Your best bet is to speak with Lion and ask him why the LR3 verson of IGF is no longer available. And yes, it is possible that the IGFLR3 on Lion's list could be a health risk. Did you get your IGF from Lion?

-Gear

yeah i did....so i am a little scared to use it now.

[Gear]

yeah i did....so i am a little scared to use it now.

Bro, I do not have the proof from either sides, but hearing negative news about something I am going to inject into my body is enough for me to say "my health is more important than anything else therefore I will not use it". That's just what I would do.

You are best of speaking with Lion via PM about this.

Hope it all works out for you mate.

-Gear

[liftsiron]

For those thay know me, I think that the majority will say that I'm a pretty trusworthy guy. I have used some lion products in the past and thought that they worked OK. I also have posted negative opinon in regard to some of his customer service issues.
This morning I did some research on BSA and found that medical products that contain BSA run a very small risk of being contaminated with pirons. But since the 1980's extreme care has been taken to ensure safe BSA. The reason being that 60% of all biological meds, includeing IGF-1, hcg , vaccines, immune drugs, cancer drugs etc. contain BSA. This was quite a surprise to me. Those of us who had our childhood measles shot etc. have already been expoused to BSA. I doubt that if any legit IGF-1 can be found that doesn't contain BSA???? I have no vested interest in lion or any other company, I just thought it worthwhile to pass on this info.

[D-END]

For those thay know me, I think that the majority will say that I'm a pretty trusworthy guy. I have used some lion products in the past and thought that they worked OK. I also have posted negative opinon in regard to some of his customer service issues.
This morning I did some research on BSA and found that medical products that contain BSA run a very small risk of being contaminated with pirons. But since the 1980's extreme care has been taken to ensure safe BSA. The reason being that 60% of all biological meds, includeing IGF-1, hcg, vaccines, immune drugs, cancer drugs etc. contain BSA. This was quite a surprise to me. Those of us who had our childhood measles shot etc. have already been expoused to BSA. I doubt that if any legit IGF-1 can be found that doesn't contain BSA???? I have no vested interest in lion or any other company, I just thought it worthwhile to pass on this info.

yeah thanks bro, but the thing that scares me is that I don't the quality or amount of BSA that is in my igf-1r3. I'm hoping that someone will set the record straight with actual evidence/tests and not just hear say. ALL of this has made me realize that I and many others trust our lives and heath to people and companies we don't know....I have be foolishly trusting strangers and will probably never order on-line stuff again. This might sound extreme to some but to me it makes total sense.

[mister.fantastic]

For those thay know me, I think that the majority will say that I'm a pretty trusworthy guy. I have used some lion products in the past and thought that they worked OK. I also have posted negative opinon in regard to some of his customer service issues.
This morning I did some research on BSA and found that medical products that contain BSA run a very small risk of being contaminated with pirons. But since the 1980's extreme care has been taken to ensure safe BSA. The reason being that 60% of all biological meds, includeing IGF-1, hcg, vaccines, immune drugs, cancer drugs etc. contain BSA. This was quite a surprise to me. Those of us who had our childhood measles shot etc. have already been expoused to BSA. I doubt that if any legit IGF-1 can be found that doesn't contain BSA???? I have no vested interest in lion or any other company, I just thought it worthwhile to pass on this info.

liftsiron,
I have seen you on many other boards and I appreciate your input on this. When all this started coming out a few weeks back, all i did was do a little search on the internet about injecting BSA in vivo. First off, i didn't find any warnings anywhere, and second, much like liftsiron, i found that BSA is found is so many current medication, both oral (like HCG !!!!!) and injectables. I'm still waiting for a response from certain key people on other boards to clue me in on what the big deal is with IGF-1 containing BSA. Oh well..

[mister.fantastic]

yeah thanks bro, but the thing that scares me is that I don't the quality or amount of BSA that is in my igf-1r3. I'm hoping that someone will set the record straight with actual evidence/tests and not just hear say. ALL of this has made me realize that I and many others trust our lives and heath to people and companies we don't know....I have be foolishly trusting strangers and will probably never order on-line stuff again. This might sound extreme to some but to me it makes total sense.

I agree with this point also. If people have found success with purchasing ancilaries online (which many here have been completly satisfied, including myself), then they can go ahead and keep purchasing ancillaries online. If you feel safer by staying away from online stores, then, find a better way. Nothing extrme about this. Good luck D-End.

[mister.fantastic]

Listen to this. I will only say it one more time. The receptor grade IGF-1 LR3 we sold is safe. The idiot who claimed to be a scientist isn't a scientist. If He was don't you think he would have posted a value. A level of some sort instead of refering to cross this and that. He was just another guy trying to break into the biz. THere is only one formula of true Human IGF-1 LR3. THere are different levels of purity. THe Receptor grade is the highest quality. We have sold out of the receptor grade. It sold very slowlyWe may not bling it back it will be avalable for special order. We will have Media grade in Powder form later this week. THe price will be much more affordable.

I'm hoping it will be available for special order.

[oswaldosalcedo]

For those thay know me, I think that the majority will say that I'm a pretty trusworthy guy. I have used some lion products in the past and thought that they worked OK. I also have posted negative opinon in regard to some of his customer service issues.
This morning I did some research on BSA and found that medical products that contain BSA run a very small risk of being contaminated with pirons. But since the 1980's extreme care has been taken to ensure safe BSA. The reason being that 60% of all biological meds, includeing IGF-1, hcg, vaccines, immune drugs, cancer drugs etc. contain BSA. This was quite a surprise to me. Those of us who had our childhood measles shot etc. have already been expoused to BSA. I doubt that if any legit IGF-1 can be found that doesn't contain BSA???? I have no vested interest in lion or any other company, I just thought it worthwhile to pass on this info.

i know you.
http://atomicalmuscle.com/



pd:and.........................imo LR3 is worthless.

[JohnnyB]

For those of you that don't know liftsiron, I've known him for just about as long as I've been on these boards, I consider him a friend, he is someone I trust. You can trust what he says, he's knowledgable and a trustworthy Bro.

JohnnyB

[liftsiron]

For those of you that don't know liftsiron, I've known him for just about as long as I've been on these boards, I consider him a friend, he is someone I trust. You can trust what he says, he's knowledgable and a trustworthy Bro.

JohnnyB

Thanks bro.

The thing with BSA is that it may cause an allergic reaction in some people who injest it. The body produces antibodies against, in some studies medical researchers have linked these antibodies to a higher rate of type II diabetes. The test subjects were milk drinkers, every glass of milk contains considerable BSA as do most other diary products.

[oswaldosalcedo]

bsa or not, LR3 is just hype.

[RUI-Products]

I too Have know LiftsIron to be very respected on the boards for a long time. Welcome to the board.

[Boricua Pump]

He joined September of 2001.

[pimpdawgin]

Any new insight into this controversy in the meantime???? What's the verdict on Lion's IGF-1 LR3?

[ecivon]

To me the real concern isn't so much about BSA and its potential consequences insomuch as what is actually contained in the long igf-1 products being offered by several different places. Their disclaimer is that they don't sell it for human consumption, but that's precisely why they do sell it, knowing full well that that is the intended use. Whether or not it contains BSA isn't as important as knowing what is in the product bought. I may be wrong, but I'm under the impression that true long igf-1 is derived from the urine of pregnant women and from the placenta and are present in small quantities. If that's true then it seems improbable that there would be enough piss and placental matter available to come up with enough volume to justify the amount of product being offered for sale. So, what's being put into this stuff? I just bought some from S-P and would very much like to know. But in terms of denouncing BSA, I think isn't totally merited. Beef for market is fed ground up beef and whole blood products. Some shampoos are manufactured with extracted placental matter and are blamed for the rise in the earlier than normal onset of puberty in kids, etc. etc. We're fed all kinds of stuff that maybe we shouldn't be, but just what is it we're injecting? The questions and concerns posted here make me uncertain whether I really want to use the stuff I bought.

[rodge]

I may be wrong, but I'm under the impression that true long igf-1 is derived from the urine of pregnant women and from the placenta and are present in small quantities.

thats hcg your talking about.

-rodge

[RedBaron]

True LR3 IGF-1 is made in the same way that most of our current day peptides are made. They use recombant technology ... not the urine of pregnant women (I think you are thinking about HCG anyway), or by any other strange method.

I can't speak for the S-P product you purchased ... I honestly am not familiar with the company or their products. I know that the current provider (Lion) at last count uses Gropep LR3. They are the patent holder and are certainly legit.

As with anything you ever purchase, it is going to come down to your confidence in your source. There have been stories of rat insulin being passed off as LR3, and many other horror stories. Some may well be true, others are probably hysteria caused unfairly by those that don't understand or have a more underhanded agenda. The problem at all levels is that legit LR3 is a pretty non-defined looking powder ... as is HGH, HCG, Insulin, and a host of other substances. Without a really specially equipped lab, there isn't any way to tell what is or isn't really in the vial. As of right now, it is really hard to find a lab that will touch HGH and peptides, and if you could it would be costly to get an analysis.

That being the case, bottom line is this ... find out about your source, where they get their materials from, get some feedback on others that have tried their products, and then make your decisions in as informed a way as possible. Even given all of that, by the nature of the substances under discussion, there is always going to be some questions that can't be answered ... it goes with the territory unfortunately.

[FranKieC]

True LR3 IGF-1 is made in the same way that most of our current day peptides are made. They use recombant technology ... not the urine of pregnant women (I think you are thinking about HCG anyway), or by any other strange method.

I can't speak for the S-P product you purchased ... I honestly am not familiar with the company or their products. I know that the current provider (Lion) at last count uses Gropep LR3. They are the patent holder and are certainly legit.

As with anything you ever purchase, it is going to come down to your confidence in your source. There have been stories of rat insulin being passed off as LR3, and many other horror stories. Some may well be true, others are probably hysteria caused unfairly by those that don't understand or have a more underhanded agenda. The problem at all levels is that legit LR3 is a pretty non-defined looking powder ... as is HGH, HCG, Insulin, and a host of other substances. Without a really specially equipped lab, there isn't any way to tell what is or isn't really in the vial. As of right now, it is really hard to find a lab that will touch HGH and peptides, and if you could it would be costly to get an analysis.

That being the case, bottom line is this ... find out about your source, where they get their materials from, get some feedback on others that have tried their products, and then make your decisions in as informed a way as possible. Even given all of that, by the nature of the substances under discussion, there is always going to be some questions that can't be answered ... it goes with the territory unfortunately.

Great info as usual RB