Take your HGH with T4.....

**Ufa** · 06-09-2006, 07:09 AM

I would not want to be the first one on the block to try T-4, t-3, If Gh is doing the trick why get complicated? I will convert if there is a compeling
reason.

**bringndaheat** · 06-09-2006, 08:29 AM

G-force, 50mcg's should like a pretty good way to go!

**bringndaheat** · 06-09-2006, 08:31 AM

UFA my compeling reason is I have a slow tyroid. Everything I have read is T-4 is much safter than t-3

**Whitey** · 06-10-2006, 05:13 AM

Originally Posted by majorpecs

I * E sells liquid T4

This is correct. I want to say there's one other place that has it, but I'm not sure.

**Seattle Junk** · 06-10-2006, 01:56 PM

Originally Posted by Whitey

This is correct. I want to say there's one other place that has it, but I'm not sure.

I'm not trying to source but mail-rx.*** has a very good pricing on t4 orals. Mods can edit or delete this if I'm outta line here.

**shadowxxx** · 06-10-2006, 08:52 PM

I heard T-4 can make your hair fall out and really doesnt help your lose weight..

**marcus300** · 06-11-2006, 02:42 AM

Originally Posted by shadowxxx

I heard T-4 can make your hair fall out and really doesnt help your lose weight..

Were did you hear that from??

**Seattle Junk** · 06-11-2006, 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by shadowxxx

I heard T-4 can make your hair fall out and really doesnt help your lose weight..

From what I remember reading, that happens with an excessive amount of T3 for a prolonged period. So that would be a lot of t4 to convert into t3.

I believe t4 with GH is mainly for the synergistic effect of protein synthesis to maximize the anabolic effect. Lethargy is also another issue with low t3 levels. You're already getting quite of bit fatloss from the GH due to the way it handles glucose. Test and a most androgenic AAS also lowers your thyroid output. I've always read t3 is the best with AAS. But maybe that theory will change to t4 after this GH study?

**bringndaheat** · 06-11-2006, 01:02 PM

I got my armour in the mail. This Thursday I will start at 60 maybe 90mcg's a day. i know that is a low dose in some peoples minds but not in my docs. He originally would only give me 30mcg's a day. But I told him to forget it. So he gave me the 90's. But he also said everybody's body is different and it depends on how the T-4 is converted in my body. He also said that in his years of practice he has never scripted over 90mcgs a day and he is not going to start!

**Seattle Junk** · 06-11-2006, 01:09 PM

Originally Posted by bringndaheat

I got my armour in the mail. This Thursday I will start at 60 maybe 90mcg's a day. i know that is a low dose in some peoples minds but not in my docs. He originally would only give me 30mcg's a day. But I told him to forget it. So he gave me the 90's. But he also said everybody's body is different and it depends on how the T-4 is converted in my body. He also said that in his years of practice he has never scripted over 90mcgs a day and he is not going to start!

Most docs dose very conservative due to possible malpractice suits. You just have to buy your stuff online or from a trusted source and do your own trials to figure out your best dosage. We always read 4:1 t4 to t3 yielding comparable dosages. So 100mcgs t4 = 25mcgs t3 which is basically natty t3 levels. Which would be great and suitable for using along side GH. I would think 150-200mcgs ed would be more like it if you wanted to increase fatloss and protein synthesis. So 200mcgs t4 = 50mcgs t3 after conversion going by conventional wisdom. That's still a safe dosage IMO that isn't even close to being excessive.

I'm planning to start at 100mcgs ed and move up to 200mcgs. Please correct me if I am wrong with this theory.

**shadowxxx** · 06-11-2006, 05:32 PM

Ok, T4, starting on a low dose, probably need it anyway, how long do you take it before you feel any effects??

**Anabolic Singh** · 06-12-2006, 02:37 AM

if i was to takr 100mcgs along with hgh and aas how long can i take the t4 for - ? the whole length of the cycle ?

**Seattle Junk** · 06-12-2006, 02:59 PM

Originally Posted by Anabolic Singh

if i was to takr 100mcgs along with hgh and aas how long can i take the t4 for - ? the whole length of the cycle ?

Yes, basically it's used as a replacement dose of your natty t3. So 100-150mcgs ed while on GH and AAS would be about right for most people.

**Anabolic Singh** · 06-13-2006, 02:33 AM

so no tapering ?

**G-Force** · 06-13-2006, 02:38 AM

i would be concerned about losing muscle taking T4 with GH and no AAS
i have spoken to marcus about this and he says he runs it even without AAS
so perhaps i am just being a bit paranoid

i was gonna start on 50mcg with GH (5iu's) and increase to 100mcg while on cycle

**dumbdumb** · 06-13-2006, 11:17 AM

I would stay with the T-4, T-3 is too strong with the HGH if you are running a cycle longer than 3-Months. I am on 200 mcg Dailey of Synthroid (levothyoxine sodium) a synthetic T-4 which is in the mid-range of thyroid meds. T-3 can stop your own production of TSH, and could damage your production forever. Unless you want to stay on T-3 indefinetly I would watch the duration of your cycle. What is your current TSH level? Have you ever used T-4 before by itself for your thyroid? I can pass on my info from my ENDO if you need it. It took me 3-weeks for mine to start to kick-in but when it did I could not sleep. (Best speed I ever tied.)
I'm 43 and on HRT, my GEAR is Legal and my insurance pays for it.

I guess getting old has its bennies.

Good Luck!

**IBdmfkr** · 06-13-2006, 11:30 AM

lol.. this is quite a thread.. source talk everywhere and price discussions.

T3/T4 I'm pretty sure is illegal where I'm from.

**G-Force** · 06-14-2006, 02:11 AM

Originally Posted by IBdmfkr

lol.. this is quite a thread.. source talk everywhere and price discussions.

T3/T4 I'm pretty sure is illegal where I'm from.

not where i'm from it aint

**boxingbean** · 06-14-2006, 03:51 AM

t4???? test 400mg??? what key ingr is it??? i hear of it alot, but is it like supertest 450??

**IBdmfkr** · 06-14-2006, 08:47 AM

Thyroid medication.

**boxingbean** · 06-14-2006, 04:13 PM

oh so you are talkin about t3 normally used w clen ...ok nevvrmind forget i mentioned anything ahha

**fred9** · 07-06-2006, 04:55 PM

With HGH administration the D3 deiodinase was reduced for a while (4/5hours). (1)
D3 regulates T3, high levels of T3 will also have high levels of D3, the D3 makes from the T3 an inactive form. Thus when administrating HGH will result in a increase of T3. D3 is also know to protect tisseus from thyroid hormones.

When you also administrate T3 at a high dose in conjunction of HGH their will be no D3 to 'protect' the tisseus from this high T3. Thus the anabolic effect from T3 with HGH doesn't occur because of the lack in D3.

I think the same holds for high T4...

- (1) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

**Seattle Junk** · 07-07-2006, 03:09 PM

Originally Posted by fred9

With HGH administration the D3 deiodinase was reduced for a while (4/5hours). (1)
D3 regulates T3, high levels of T3 will also have high levels of D3, the D3 makes from the T3 an inactive form. Thus when administrating HGH will result in a increase of T3. D3 is also know to protect tisseus from thyroid hormones.

When you also administrate T3 at a high dose in conjunction of HGH their will be no D3 to 'protect' the tisseus from this high T3. Thus the anabolic effect from T3 with HGH doesn't occur because of the lack in D3.

I think the same holds for high T4...

- (1) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

No, that was the point of using t4 in lieu of t3 with GH. t4 does not suppose to diminish D3 due to the conversion process into natty t3.

http://www.mindandmuscle.net/mindand...D=42&pageNum=1

Your thyroid gland secretes two hormones that are going to be of primary importance in understanding Thyroid/GH interaction. The first is thyroxine (T4) and the second is triiodothyronine (T3). T3 is frequently considered the physiologically active hormone, and consequently the one on which most athletes and bodybuilders focus their energies on. T4, on the other hand, is converted in peripheral tissue into T3 by the enzymes in the deiodinase group, of which there are three types- the three iodothyronine deiodinase either catalyze the initiation (D1, D2) or termination (D3) of thyroid hormone effects. The majority of the body's T3 (about 80%) comes from this conversion via the first two types of deiodinase, while conversion to an inactive state is accomplished by the third type.

....................

Your body’s GH is regulated by many internal factors, such as hormones and enzymes. hormones. A change in the level of your body’s GH output begins in the hypothalamus with somatostatin (SS) and growth hormone-releasing hormone (GHRH). Somatostatin exerts its effect at the pituitary to decrease GH output, while GHRH acts at the pituitary to increase GH output. Together these hormones regulate the level of GH you have in your body. In many cases, GH deficiency presents with a low level of T3, and normal T4 (4). This is of course occurs because conversion of T4-T3 is partially dependant on GH (and to some degree GH stimulated IGF-1), and it’s ability to stimulate that conversion process of T4 into T3.

**fred9** · 07-07-2006, 03:29 PM

yo seattle,
yes, i agree with that thats the reason why to take T4, but the purpose is to create high t3 with the hgh to create the "anabolic " effect....
if you take high T4 there will be also high t3 because d1 and d2, which regulates conversion to t3, arent supressed by hgh....but the D3 is still low because of hgh, thus the high T3 created by T4 will also dimish the anabolic effect..by the way i explained above

oww by the way, im not saying im right and youre not, its just because of my lack in English...it's more a question if this is the right way..
grtz

**Seattle Junk** · 07-08-2006, 01:01 PM

Originally Posted by fred9

yo seattle,
yes, i agree with that thats the reason why to take T4, but the purpose is to create high t3 with the hgh to create the "anabolic " effect....
if you take high T4 there will be also high t3 because d1 and d2, which regulates conversion to t3, arent supressed by hgh....but the D3 is still low because of hgh, thus the high T3 created by T4 will also dimish the anabolic effect..by the way i explained above

oww by the way, im not saying im right and youre not, its just because of my lack in English...it's more a question if this is the right way..
grtz

The reason for supp'n t3 with GH or AAS is to replace your natty t3 that is supressed. So if you take enough to mimmick your natty levels or slightly higher, you shouldn't have a problem. Let the GH stimulate the conversion of t4 into t3 which is closer to your natty process instead of throwing in exongenous t3. That's how I read into it. I could be wrong, please correct me if I am.

This is of course occurs because conversion of T4-T3 is partially dependant on GH (and to some degree GH stimulated IGF-1), and it’s ability to stimulate that conversion process of T4 into T3.

**fred9** · 07-08-2006, 02:04 PM

Originally Posted by Seattle Junk

The reason for supp'n t3 with GH or AAS is to replace your natty t3 that is supressed. So if you take enough to mimmick your natty levels or slightly higher, you shouldn't have a problem. Let the GH stimulate the conversion of t4 into t3 which is closer to your natty process instead of throwing in exongenous t3. That's how I read into it. I could be wrong, please correct me if I am.

This is of course occurs because conversion of T4-T3 is partially dependant on GH (and to some degree GH stimulated IGF-1), and it’s ability to stimulate that conversion process of T4 into T3.

hgh stimulates the conversion, because hgh lowers D3...D3 is the regulator of T3, it makes T3 inactive(T2,rT3) when it reaches a high value....but when you take hgh, there's low d3, the low d3 cant protect you againt t3...thus muscle waist...
When you take T4 then there will be at some point a high T3, normally this will result in higher d3 to inactivate the t3 and decrease trh+tsh...then when the T3 becomes to low then d3 will decrease and trh+tsh will increase...etcetra..
When you take T4 with HGH there will also be at some point high T3, the d3 is supressed which result in 'dangerous' high t3...there is allready a low TSH because of the increase in Somatostatin due HGH, so we dont have to think about that..

It's also important to know, which i forget to mention, that d3 is normally in some specific areas more active then in other areas...for example: an embryo must not have those high T3-levels like the mother has, thus D3 is higher in that area (uterus)..

I also had somewhere a nice study about low D3 and high T3, but cant find it right now...ill post it when i found it..

**Xtralarg** · 07-08-2006, 02:04 PM

This is all very complicated stuff.In short ive ran hgh with and without t4 and to be perfectly honest i havnt noticed any difference. I do choose to run the t4 at 50mcg ed though,just to be on the safe side!

**fred9** · 07-08-2006, 02:11 PM

Originally Posted by xtralarg

This is all very complicated stuff.In short ive ran hgh with and without t4 and to be perfectly honest i havnt noticed any difference. I do choose to run the t4 at 50mcg ed though,just to be on the safe side!

yeah looks to me also the safest approach, just low dose, or not at all...but maybe some more people with experience can give some input....i always prefer experiences above theory

**Xtralarg** · 07-08-2006, 02:17 PM

Originally Posted by fred9

yeah looks to me also the safest approach, just low dose, or not at all...but maybe some more people with experience can give some input....i always prefer experiences above theory

As you say thoery is good but experience is invaluabe. I once remember a doctor telling me that nothing in medicine is black and white and the more i see and read the more i believe this 'theory' to be true. What works for one doesnt for another and visa versa.

**fred9** · 07-08-2006, 03:05 PM

Originally Posted by xtralarg

As you say thoery is good but experience is invaluabe. I once remember a doctor telling me that nothing in medicine is black and white and the more i see and read the more i believe this 'theory' to be true. What works for one doesnt for another and visa versa.

the theory of experience

**pscarb** · 07-08-2006, 04:47 PM

Originally Posted by dumbdumb

T-3 can stop your own production of TSH, and could damage your production forever.

i would like to see any studies or articles you have to back up the fact that you can damage your thyroid forever...

i was on T3 at 100mcg ed for 16 weeks last year as i ran in to my comp i had my TSH levels checked by my doc 3 times once before the cycle (4.2) once 8 weeks into the cycle(6.3) and then 4 weeks after i finished the T3(4.7) my doc told me that she had not seen any articles to back up the claim that using thyroid meds can permanently damage your thyroid.....

this may be an isolated case for me so i would be interested in seeing any articles/studies on permanent damage...

**fred9** · 07-08-2006, 04:56 PM

Originally Posted by pscarb

i would like to see any studies or articles you have to back up the fact that you can damage your thyroid forever...

i was on T3 at 100mcg ed for 16 weeks last year as i ran in to my comp i had my TSH levels checked by my doc 3 times once before the cycle (4.2) once 8 weeks into the cycle(6.3) and then 4 weeks after i finished the T3(4.7) my doc told me that she had not seen any articles to back up the claim that using thyroid meds can permanently damage your thyroid.....

this may be an isolated case for me so i would be interested in seeing any articles/studies on permanent damage...

read a while ago about tsh levels while on starvation, those decreased a very big amount, dont know the exact % anymore but when i read it supprised me how big that percentage was...
would be quite the same as t3 supplementation ...

**Seattle Junk** · 07-08-2006, 05:16 PM

Originally Posted by pscarb

i would like to see any studies or articles you have to back up the fact that you can damage your thyroid forever...

i was on T3 at 100mcg ed for 16 weeks last year as i ran in to my comp i had my TSH levels checked by my doc 3 times once before the cycle (4.2) once 8 weeks into the cycle(6.3) and then 4 weeks after i finished the T3(4.7) my doc told me that she had not seen any articles to back up the claim that using thyroid meds can permanently damage your thyroid.....

this may be an isolated case for me so i would be interested in seeing any articles/studies on permanent damage...

I agree. I was on t3 for 12 weeks at 75mcgs. I had my t3 levels checked 6 weeks after the last t3 dose. My levels came in slightly higher than average but average for the most part. Everybody is different as we know. A "damaged" or under producing thyroid seems to be genetic or a prexisting problem more than anything. But I can see prolonged use of t3 at high dosages may cause problems. I'm thinking 200mcgs+ ed. I know there are some BB's using these amounts but I haven't heard of any complications from what I've read and who I've talked to. Damaged thyroid due to exongenous t3 usage seems to be speculation in the medical field since there is no imperical data linking it.

**MorganKane** · 07-08-2006, 08:35 PM

I used 12.5 - 50mg ED while using HGH for 6+ months.
Had blood work done and my TSH was 3.6 (on the high end of normal) 6 weeks after I stopped the cycle.

I will use it again.

**pscarb** · 07-09-2006, 03:15 AM

Originally Posted by fred9

read a while ago about tsh levels while on starvation, those decreased a very big amount, dont know the exact % anymore but when i read it supprised me how big that percentage was...
would be quite the same as t3 supplementation ...

out of intrest Fred why would extreme starvation T3 amounts be the same as T3 supplementation??

**fred9** · 07-09-2006, 03:17 AM

Originally Posted by pscarb

out of intrest Fred why would extreme starvation T3 amounts be the same as T3 supplementation??

yeah i meant the amount of tsh/trh that is produced by your body are a little comparable...starvation mode will deplete those and so will t3 supp

**pscarb** · 07-09-2006, 07:37 AM

yes i agree that their will be some drop in natty TSH levels whilst supplementing with T3 but i was under the impression from your post you where indicating the drop to be massive....just as it is in severe starvation??