insulin q's

**yankeeman411** · 08-05-2006, 03:16 PM

whats up everyone, i just started taking insulin today and i have a couple of questions that i hope someone can answer for me.
first off i've done plenty of research but there arae a few questions i cant answer
1. do you cycle on and off from insulin, if so how many on how many off
2. what are the average gains, and how much of that do you keep when you go off
3. and finally should i expect any fat gain

i appreciate all the help i can get. thanks

**rodge** · 08-05-2006, 03:23 PM

here is a good start:

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=192403

-rodge

**yankeeman411** · 08-05-2006, 03:27 PM

thasnks man great link

**yankeeman411** · 08-05-2006, 03:30 PM

help me get this straight.
insulin forces nutrients(protein) into muscles. The only reason you need to take carbs is so you dont become hypo. Try to take as little carbs as possible so you dont get fat but enough so you dont ****ing kill your self.
does that sum it up

**spicyer** · 08-05-2006, 08:02 PM

Yes it sums it up, but best advice I got was in an article which stated DO NO RUN INSULIN WITHOUT A GLUCOSE METER. Once you determine your baseline level at different times of the day, it is important to check level to be sure you are ok. If you go hypo it may be too late, get the meter and don't gamble. Also very good idea if training partner/spouse/girlfriend etc. knows what you are doing. It could save your life if you go into shock.

**Gear** · 08-05-2006, 08:41 PM

You should really do the full research before use, but here are your answers anyway.

Most cycle insulin 4 weeks ON/OFF, so cycle longer, some cycle without breaks but IMO you're best of with the 4 ON/OFF method as that is what most do successfully.

You won't gain much from slin, no size or strength if that's what you're after. It will shuttle nutrients into cells so it's great for recovery that's why people use it PWO, great through PCT too to help maintain gains.

Fat gain depends on what you eat. When using insulin you should only be consuming carbohydrates and proteins at certain times. Once insulin is no longer active you may eat as you usally do.

-Gear

**Gear** · 08-05-2006, 08:43 PM

Originally Posted by yankeeman411

help me get this straight.
insulin forces nutrients(protein) into muscles. The only reason you need to take carbs is so you dont become hypo. Try to take as little carbs as possible so you dont get fat but enough so you dont ****ing kill your self.
does that sum it up

That's correct. But you must remember that carbohydrates are not only going to keep you from going hypo, they will also help you recover faster PWO too, so that's another reason why we recomend to take carbs PWO. Take just enough carbs to keep you out of hypo, anymore isn't really necessary IMO.

-Gear

**Gear** · 08-05-2006, 08:46 PM

Originally Posted by spicyer

Yes it sums it up, but best advice I got was in an article which stated DO NO RUN INSULIN WITHOUT A GLUCOSE METER. Once you determine your baseline level at different times of the day, it is important to check level to be sure you are ok. If you go hypo it may be too late, get the meter and don't gamble. Also very good idea if training partner/spouse/girlfriend etc. knows what you are doing. It could save your life if you go into shock.

BG monitor is a great idea, but you sholdn't rely on it. Just because the monitor is showing low levels, it doesn't necessaraly mean you need more carbs. Your low level could be my mid level or someone else's high level. Evereybody is different, so take carbs if you feel the need to not if the monitor says so. Use the monitor as a guideline only, this will help you guess how far away from hypp you may be, it will get you ready.

-Gear

**yankeeman411** · 08-06-2006, 06:39 AM

thanks guys appreciate all the info

**rodge** · 08-06-2006, 07:35 AM

good luck bro and be safe.

-rodge

**gixxerboy1** · 08-06-2006, 09:15 AM

Originally Posted by Gear

BG monitor is a great idea, but you sholdn't rely on it. Just because the monitor is showing low levels, it doesn't necessaraly mean you need more carbs. Your low level could be my mid level or someone else's high level. Evereybody is different, so take carbs if you feel the need to not if the monitor says so. Use the monitor as a guideline only, this will help you guess how far away from hypp you may be, it will get you ready.

-Gear

Who told you that. Low blood sugar is low blood sugar. People might feel symptoms at different levels but if his bg is low symptoms or not he will need some carbs. That is just dangerous telling him if the glucose meter says his bg is low doesn't mean he necessarily needs carbs. So what should he wait till he feels dizzy? thats smart

**Gear** · 08-07-2006, 12:24 AM

Originally Posted by gixxerboy1

Low blood sugar is low blood sugar. People might feel symptoms at different levels but if his bg is low symptoms or not he will need some carbs. That is just dangerous telling him if the glucose meter says his bg is low doesn't mean he necessarily needs carbs. So what should he wait till he feels dizzy? thats smart

No you shouldn't wait until you go dizzy to take carbs, of course not. But is it necessary to take carbs when monitor is showing low BG? The answer is not for everybody. I'll give you a perfect example. People always say not to let your BG drop below 70. My BG drops to 40 and I feel totally normal. It is only when my BG drops to around 35- that I start to feel that I need carbs. So what do I do when I use insulin ? I take carbs if my BG drops to around 50, so this way I feel fine even if my BG is around 50. If it stays above 50 I don't bother taking carbs at all. I have a friend who can't tolerate his BG level any lower than 65, so he takes his carbs when his BG levels are around 75 - 80. Do I need to take carbs when my BG is 75 - 80? Absolutly not. It's dangerous practise, but it's how it is.

I never said one should wait to feel dizzy and then take the nutrients, that would be just plain out silly. I was trying to state that even if your BG is low, you can still feel fine. Yes it would be a good idea to take carbs when your BG is low, but it doesn't mean you will go hypo if you don't take carbs at that time. That's what I was trying to say.

By the way, no need for attitude, if you don't agree to something just state it in a meture manner, or don't state your opinion at all.

-Gear

**gixxerboy1** · 08-07-2006, 08:08 AM

Originally Posted by Gear

No you shouldn't wait until you go dizzy to take carbs, of course not. But is it necessary to take carbs when monitor is showing low BG? The answer is not for everybody. I'll give you a perfect example. People always say not to let your BG drop below 70. My BG drops to 40 and I feel totally normal. It is only when my BG drops to around 35- that I start to feel that I need carbs. So what do I do when I use insulin ? I take carbs if my BG drops to around 50, so this way I feel fine even if my BG is around 50. If it stays above 50 I don't bother taking carbs at all. I have a friend who can't tolerate his BG level any lower than 65, so he takes his carbs when his BG levels are around 75 - 80. Do I need to take carbs when my BG is 75 - 80? Absolutly not. It's dangerous practise, but it's how it is.

I never said one should wait to feel dizzy and then take the nutrients, that would be just plain out silly. I was trying to state that even if your BG is low, you can still feel fine. Yes it would be a good idea to take carbs when your BG is low, but it doesn't mean you will go hypo if you don't take carbs at that time. That's what I was trying to say.

By the way, no need for attitude, if you don't agree to something just state it in a meture manner, or don't state your opinion at all.

-Gear

I'm sorry for the attitude but what you are telling him is WRONG. Yes you may feel symptoms to 35 but do you need carbs at 50 YES. Just because you don't feel hypo doesn't mean you aren't. I have seen people feel fine and pass out on the floor. Just because people feel symptoms at different levels doesn't mean they require carbs at different levels. Just because you read some articles and have tried slin doesn't mean you are correct. What you are telling someone can kill them. If anything you should air on the side of caution especially since you don't know how this guy in the tread is.

As far as my experience with insulin.
1: I'm a diabetic for over 20 years
2: Have had extensive diabetic education.
3: Was a camp counselor for young diabetic camp for 4 years.
4: Taught diabetic educational classes to teens.
5: Also held seminars for teens on exercising with diabetes.

But I'm sure you read some stuff on the Internet and have tried slin so you know more.

**spicyer** · 08-07-2006, 08:55 AM

Yankeeman, looks like your thread has turned into a little debate, either way, the bg levels that are being discussed can't be determined unless you have a bg meter. Get one it can save your life.

**rodge** · 08-07-2006, 10:08 AM

Originally Posted by gixxerboy1

I'm sorry for the attitude but what you are telling him is WRONG. Yes you may feel symptoms to 35 but do you need carbs at 50 YES. Just because you don't feel hypo doesn't mean you aren't. I have seen people feel fine and pass out on the floor. Just because people feel symptoms at different levels doesn't mean they require carbs at different levels. Just because you read some articles and have tried slin doesn't mean you are correct. What you are telling someone can kill them. If anything you should air on the side of caution especially since you don't know how this guy in the tread is.

As far as my experience with insulin .
1: I'm a diabetic for over 20 years
2: Have had extensive diabetic education.
3: Was a camp counselor for young diabetic camp for 4 years.
4: Taught diabetic educational classes to teens.
5: Also held seminars for teens on exercising with diabetes.

But I'm sure you read some stuff on the Internet and have tried slin so you know more.

the one thing you forget to mention is that we are using it for bodybuilding purposes instead of using it as a diabetic medicine. what you teach these kids at camp/seminars is to use slin as safe as possible. offcourse we can use slin pwo and stuff us full of carbs as long as slin is active, this way we get all the carbs we need and... alot to much and so begin to store the rest as bf%. its our goal to gain as much LEAN muscle tissue not overall mass. is using slin safe this way? not always but there for its adviced many times on here to only mess around with when fully educated and mature enough to know your responsibility.

-rodge

**vermin** · 08-07-2006, 10:58 AM

What about the 1-2IU with each meal alternative to PWO slin?

**rodge** · 08-07-2006, 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by vermin

What about the 1-2IU with each meal alternative to PWO slin?

not worth it imo. best is to take slin when we can use its benefits the most... PWO.

-rodge

**gixxerboy1** · 08-07-2006, 11:33 AM

Originally Posted by rodge

the one thing you forget to mention is that we are using it for bodybuilding purposes instead of using it as a diabetic medicine. what you teach these kids at camp/seminars is to use slin as safe as possible. offcourse we can use slin pwo and stuff us full of carbs as long as slin is active, this way we get all the carbs we need and... alot to much and so begin to store the rest as bf%. its our goal to gain as much LEAN muscle tissue not overall mass. is using slin safe this way? not always but there for its adviced many times on here to only mess around with when fully educated and mature enough to know your responsibility.

-rodge

Of course and i do realise that. But Gear said that one guys low blood sugar might be someone else's high? What is that? So someone might be by hypo at 65 but someone else is hyper? That's is not true. Yes people feel symptoms differently. That doesn't mean they dont need carbs. Hell sometimes i feel low at 65 other times i didnt feel symptoms till i was 35.
I not telling this guy to eat 100g of carbs if his sugar is 50 but to ignore it because he doesn't feel symptoms is wrong. Also gear is giving out this advice to someone who hasn't tried slin. They might not be completely sure what the symptoms feel like.

**Gear** · 08-07-2006, 08:39 PM

Originally Posted by gixxerboy1

I'm sorry for the attitude but what you are telling him is WRONG. Yes you may feel symptoms to 35 but do you need carbs at 50 YES. Just because you don't feel hypo doesn't mean you aren't. I have seen people feel fine and pass out on the floor. Just because people feel symptoms at different levels doesn't mean they require carbs at different levels. Just because you read some articles and have tried slin doesn't mean you are correct. What you are telling someone can kill them. If anything you should air on the side of caution especially since you don't know how this guy in the tread is.

As far as my experience with insulin .
1: I'm a diabetic for over 20 years
2: Have had extensive diabetic education.
3: Was a camp counselor for young diabetic camp for 4 years.
4: Taught diabetic educational classes to teens.
5: Also held seminars for teens on exercising with diabetes.

But I'm sure you read some stuff on the Internet and have tried slin so you know more.

Insulin use for diabetics is different to insulin use for enhancment purposes. And I see what you are saying, and you are right in terms on trying to be safe. But, if you want to use slin for enhancing purposes and want lean gains, the way I said to use slin is the best way to use it. It's a little more dangerous yes, but you are more than likely to get better gains that way, and that is how most bodybuilders use insulin as well. That's why we always say "make sure you're educated and know what you're doing because it's a dangerous game".

I really think you are still missundersting what I'm trying to say though, and I belive its because you are looking at the way diabetics use insulin. And that's why you are missunderstanding me because insulin use for enhancing purposes is totally different to insulin use for a diabetics. I was never advising anyone to not consume carbs just because they don't feel hypo. All I was saying is that some don't have to take carbs the same time as others. It's all about experimenting and figuring out how your body reacts.

No I don't just read what I see on the net. I give advice from facts and personal experience. I've been on this board for many years, and I have had many come to me asking for help when it comes to insulin use, many of them. And not one has ever come back not happy with the advice I have given them. They always come bask and thank me and tell me about their gains, and now you come along that has probably never used insulin for enhanicing purposes before and try and tell me what to and not to do when it comes to slin use. Give me a break bro, let's just move onto the next subject.

Let em repeat this again because you keep on repeting yourself. When using insulin for enhancing purposes, you must treat insulin differently to the way one treats insulin that has diabetes.

-Gear

**gixxerboy1** · 08-07-2006, 08:51 PM

Originally Posted by Gear

Evereybody is different, so take carbs if you feel the need to not if the monitor says so. Use the monitor as a guideline only,
-Gear

Gear i do understand there is a different way of doing it for enhancement. I even manipulate my insulin and bg for better results bb wise. But you statement i quoted is what i think is wrong. i have seen people probably minutes from being unconscious and never feel a symptom. I have been 27 and felt fine. Just happened to take my bd before diner and that's what it was. I was shocked. So I think telling them to take carbs only if you feel the need not if the monitor say so is a bad idea.

I do agree a lot with what you are saying but what about putting a cut off reading even in the sticky on when someone should take carbs. Maybe say a bg reading of 40 or below should take X amount of carbs even if hypo symptoms aren't felt?

**Gear** · 08-07-2006, 09:02 PM

Originally Posted by rodge

offcourse we can use slin pwo and stuff us full of carbs as long as slin is active, this way we get all the carbs we need and... alot to much and so begin to store the rest as bf%. its our goal to gain as much LEAN muscle tissue not overall mass.

This is excatly why I say to use insulin the way I said. The less carbs you have the less chance of fat stirage you will have, otherwise it really defeats the purpose of using insulin, you will still reover well, but you'll gain fat, and that's the last thing a BBer wants.

-Gear

**Gear** · 08-07-2006, 09:13 PM

Originally Posted by gixxerboy1

Maybe say a bg reading of 40 or below should take X amount of carbs even if hypo symptoms aren't felt?

I did say something like that bro. If you look at one of my posts above, you will see I wrote that my friend can't tolerate his BG any lower than 65, so people like that should consume carbs at around 75 - 80 to be safe. I also stated that I can't tolerate my BG any lower than 35, and therefore that is why I always consume carbs when my BG is around 50, or starts to drop just under 50. Go ahead and read it, you will see that's excatly what I said, which is what you wanted me to say.

Bro insulin use for enhancment purposes isn't safe practise. It's just how it is. If you read Einstein's thread on insulin use you will see even he recomends to take just enough carbs to stay from going hypo.

I always say "use the BG monitor as a guideline". This means if you can't tolerate your BG at 50, then consume carbs at 70 or so. That is what I meant by saying "use the BG as a guideline".

-Gear

**Gear** · 08-07-2006, 10:45 PM

The thing is, BBers use insulin the more dangerous way. They do this to ensure they don't gain any excess fat while at the same time they are still getting great recovery and not going hypo either. As said earlier on, it is dangerous practise, but it's how insulin is used when it comes to bodybuilding. This isn't the way diabetics use insulin.

Perhaps a beginner should always make sure they are consuming more than enough carbs just to be safe, but this certinly isn't the way to use insulin. Once they get a feel of what insulin does, they can start to play around with carbs consumption amount and that's when they will see better results.

-Gear

**Gear** · 08-07-2006, 10:55 PM

Originally Posted by gixxerboy1

i have seen people probably minutes from being unconscious and never feel a symptom.

I am having troubles believeing that. Beofore you go unconscious, you go through hell bro. You sweat, you shake, you have troubles concentrating, you will get stomach pains and your vision will go blurry. This will happen for quite a while until the next part arrives, and the next part is even worse. You are more than likely to have to sit down simply because you won't even have the energy to stand up or walk around, not to mention the lack of concentration you would be feeling, the blurry vision and the sweating and shaking. You will go through all this before you actually just fall on the ground unconscious. You don't just fall on the ground unconscious without any symptoms because it is the symptoms that lead to unconsciouseness. It is the side effetcs that come unexpected, you sure as hell won't just drop unconscious without warning, that's for sure.

-Gear