My take on IGF-1

[ss01]

On July 20 I got into some pretty intense discussion on another board about IGF-1. I got so rattled with the misinformation that I decided to loose my 13 years of reading on IGF-1 onto that board. Here's the result.

If you want to use IGF for localization growth get some rhIGF-1. It binds to the wound only and does not go into the bloodstream. This helps repair the injection wound and makes new cells in that area only. While Long R3 IGF binds somewhat to the would then makes its way to the blood stream causing growth throughout the body..

This is false.

The difference between rhIGF-1 and Long R3 is that the Long R3 does not get bound by binding protein and thus is 100% active whereas you do lose a great % of whatever amount of rhIGF-1 you inject to IGFBP3.

While technically it is true that if you inject a large amount of the rhIGF-1 it will have almost only localized effect, it is so because the "excess" that does not bind to cells in the muscle in which it is injected is rapidly bound up by IGFBP3 and thus rendered unusable by cells elsewhere. It would be much much better in such a case to inject a smaller amount and not have ANY excess that gets bound up by IGFBP's.

And while technically it is true that if you inject a large amount of Long R3 IGF-1 in a muscle, it will first bind to the nearest available receptor, and spread, binding to more and more receptors and not be bound up and neutralized by IGFBP's, meaning that it will travel all through your body and grow all kinds of tissue. This is called the systemic effect of IGF-1. Therein lies the only distinction in terms of BOTH half-life and localized/systemic effect between the Long and the human varieties.

What does all this mean?

It means that technically, for the part of the muscle in which you inject, THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN rhIGF-1 and Long R3 IGF-1. They both have the EXACT SAME LOCAL EFFECT. But rhIGF-1 gets neutralized quick, whereas Long R3 gets to float around until it finds a receptor.

What does all this tell us?

It tells us many things. Let's start with what we want, then see where that leads us. What do we want? Bigger muscles. More muscle cells that we will later grow with exercise and gear. A pump? Fatloss? Yeah, right. You can get a pump with a good "pump" product for a quarter of the price of IGF-1. Fatloss? Clen /Alb and T3/T4 will give it to you again at a fraction of the price of IGF-1. More muscle cells, you can ONLY get with IGF-1 (and MGF too). Nothing else will give it to you and if you are using IGF-1 for anything else, you are misusing it. More muscle cells is CLEARLY the best use for IGF-1.

What does all this tell us?

It tells us that we should use IGF-1 to make more muscle cells. It's the only thing that can give it to us and more cells is more growth, which is our goal.

What does this tell us?

The localized effects are the best. Long R3 IGF-1 can float around your body and attach to anything that has IGF-1 receptors. The intestines is the place that has the MOST IGF-1 receptors and it also happens to have lots of blood flow. Injecting large amounts of Long R3 ENSURES that you are growing your intestines. Remember, more cells doesn't equal more size right away. Wait a bit, and see them grow.

What does this mean?

It means that if you are injecting upwards of 50mcg of IGF-1 you are growing your intestines. Yes you are also growing muscle and you may be getting leaner in the process. Your waistline looks trimmer. Nice. A few months down the line, your new intestinal cells will be of their full adult size and you will have acquired the perma-bloat look. Guaranteed. Maybe not Coleman-size perma-gut, but SOME perma-gut and it will keep growing. Guaranteed. Just as your new muscle cells can keep growing and growing IF you pin IGF-1 in a way to maximize new muscle cell creation.

HOW?

Heavy resistance exercise strongly upregulates the IGF-1 receptors on the stressed muscle. That means that after your workout, the muscles you trained are at their BEST STATE for receiving IGF-1 and growing many new cells. That's when you pin. This upregulation of IGF-1 receptor during exercise is short-lived. The science is not readily available so I am unable to quote a paper, but within 60 minutes of the last set, the receptors are back at baseline. This means, PIN IMMEDIATELY POSTWORKOUT and you will get your new muscle cells. PIN A LESSER AMOUNT and you will get only new MUSCLE cells out of your IGF-1. Pin more and you will grow other things, including stuff you wish you didn't grow.

What else?

All the talk about IGF-1's half-life is UTTER BULLSHIT. It is technicality without any real-world applicability. Yes rhIGF-1 has a "short half-life". But what does it mean? It means that it is either taken up by a cell receptor or bound up by a binding protein in short order. Does it mean that 20 minutes after the IGF-1 is pinned you should pin more because "blood levels are low"? Not by any means. Once it's activated a cell receptor, that's where it initiates a cellular response that will take about 72 hours to be complete and which will consume lots of energy. So the half-life of 20 minutes means NOTHING BECAUSE THE EFFECTS STILL LAST 72 HOURS ALL THE SAME.

What about Long R3 IGF-1?

Yes technically it has a longer half-life. Why? Because it either gets rapidly taken up by a cell receptor or... Just floats around. Until it can find a receptor or is destroyed by the immune system or some other metabolizing mechanism. BUT THIS MEANS ***NOTHING***!!! Why does it mean nothing? BECAUSE once it attaches to a cell receptor, it initiates a cellular response that will take about 72 hours to be complete. THIS CELLULAR RESPONSE IS ALL THAT INTERESTS US. Not "blood levels", that's utter bullshit. As a matter of fact, the one thing YOU DO NOT WANT IS FOR BLOOD LEVELS OF IGF-1 TO BE ELEVATED. Because that means you are growing everywhere and this means first and foremost your guts. Sure it feels like it's working while you're on. Just you wait 9 months and see that you look like Craig Kovacs. Bravo, you now have the biggest intestines in the world.

Half-life means nothing. Localized vs systemic = bad argument. You want localized effects. Period. You get them by pinning immediately postworkout. Period. End of argument.

OMFG I am so tired of all the misinformation floating around on IGF-1. Look at the length of this post. Did you read all of it? You should, you know.

[ss01]

I am also interested in the amount your recommend shooting post workout?

40mcg is plenty. We have to realize that this is a huge amount compared to what the body naturally produces. Maybe we can ask TheGame46 who is working on his master's degree in endocrinology what the actual amount produced by a normal human, say even with exercise, but it's probably something less than 1mcg.

20mcg each side. 30 each side in the quads. That's plenty. Now, you won't see major, immediate LBM increases, but THAT IS NOT WHAT IGF-1 IS FOR. That's what AAS are for. 40-50mcg total will let you get plenty of hyperplasia, not grow your intestines too much, and save you plenty of $. The newly added muscle cells will take months to grow, but they will, and you will use IGF-1 again because it gets reasonably inexpensive with such a protocol.

Another thing: much of the newer research shows that EOD and even E3D igf-1 treatment is better than ED because ED downregulates the receptors too quick. It takes some time for receptors to be able to come back in full after a megadose of even 20mcg of IGF-1. So you may want to think about switching to EOD lifting and IGF-1 immediately postworkout every workout, or 2on/1off and pin the lagging muscle E3D. These dosing patterns won't give you pounds of immediate muscle, but they will give you hyperplasia, which means continued growth at very decent rates, and the ability to continue treatment for a long while until response diminishes.

And no Coleman guts.

[ss01]

I was thinking about trying IGF, very interesting info here. Thanks Grunt for posting this info. A couple of other questions that maybe you can answer, if you don't mind. How does IGF interact with insulin, i.e. can it be pinned with insulin post workout? Also, what are your thoughts on taking IGF durring a cycle of HGH?

Great questions. I'll start with some background on the peptides from back before IGF-1 was commonly used. GH was the first peptide to be used in Bodybuilding. We pretty much know what GH does and doesn't do and all that, so I'll skip this part. Then came along insulin . It quickly became apparent that slin on its own doesn't do much for muscle. It does make you fat but not much bigger. With AAS and tons of food, it's better. Later it became extremely clear that Slin & GH was the winner combo, the most synergistic combination around.

What few people realize even today - and it's been what, nearly 20 years of insulin usage in BBing, is that the very reason why slin and GH are synergystic is that when levels of both are high, the liver turns the GH into IGF-1. That's right, when doing slin & GH, you are in fact using these because your body makes more IGF-1 with them. So it isn't the slin OR the GH nor actually the compounding of the effects of each, but rather good old IGF-1. Even the name Insulinlike Growth Factor, has been made such because of the origin of the compound in Insulin and Growth Hormone .

Now, the IGF-1 from slin & GH is not long R3 IGF-1, it's hIGF-1. It's different and possibly the effects are somewhat different than when using Long R3, especially with regards to IGF-1 receptor downregulation, which is likely much lesser with the liver-synthesized IGF-1 than with the Long R3. No studies proving this, it is theory at this point and such a study will possibly never be made, for many good reasons. One reason why receptor downregulation is lesser with hIGF-1 is its half-life, or its very limited ability to run around the body and saturate all receptors everywhere. And here we join up with the EOD and E3D protocols which state that letting the receptors rest is extremely important to continued results. You get the same effect out of slin & gh because of IGFBP3 that mops up the IGF-1 within minutes of synthesis, which makes it impossible to saturate the receptors and lets them rest. Similar effect, completely different way of achieving it.

So slin & gh are synergistic. Then the next question: what about slin & IGF or Gh & IGF? IGF is synergistic with both. MOST of the effects of GH are mediated through IGF-1 but not ALL of them. Among the good effects of GH that IGF-1 does not exert is anabolism to ligaments, for example. This is just an example to show that there is a benefit to using GH & IGF-1 at the same time. There is evidence that ED dosing of LR3 reduces GH release in the body, so it makes plenty of sense to use both at the same time.

Slin & IGF is a different animal. Most of the benefits of insulin come from its ability to increase IGF-1. Unless you are diabetic, your body makes enough insulin. Eat more, it releases more insulin. More carbs? More slin. The limit to the body's ability to release slin isn't easily reached. Even feeding 10,000 cals ED your body can produce the slin to store that. Easily.

Am I stating there is no use in pinning slin & IGF together? No. There is evidence that shows that pinning slin with IGF-1 increases the length of the effects of IGF-1. Especially the hypoglycemic effects, obviously, but this has pretty far-ranging and beneficial implications, among which saturating the lean cells with nutrients and having a low blood sugar level are not the least. Obviously they are both hypoglycemic compounds so carbs have to be adjusted up when adding IGF-1 to slin, or slin reduced. I prefer the second option, although I am at a loss as to the amount of slin you would have to remove for compensation with, say, 40mcg IGF-1.

Personally I have not done this. Both my grandfathers were diabetics, so I'm not playing with slin. Especially that I have a natural tendency to go hypoglycemic easily. IGF-1 though is simply GREAT for me.

What I did do, over 10 years ago, is use an extremely potent GH releaser named GHB and combined that with a few ounces of sugar, the idea being of course a cheap version of GH & Slin. Obviously it worked great over a few months and it did produce hyperplasia, as made very obvious by the muscle size I retained when taking a 2 year layoff from lifting because of a non-training related injury.

[ss01]

Dont take this as me being a dick but do you have some experience with IGF Grunt? If so what were your gains? And have you tried rhIGF? What kind of gains from those? I would guess with as much knowledge you have on this you'd have to have run it before.

I have run LR3 at 20, 30, 40 and 50mcg ED as well as variations of only postworkout pinning. I suggested EOD and gapped dosing way before lab research showed that this would be a better dosing protocol.

In my experience, IMMEDIATELY-POSTWORKOUT dosing is all-important to hyperplasia. SOME benefit is had by pinning preworkout and at other times, but the vey best resutls from pinning immediately postworkout. I have experimented with 5-minutes postworkout and 20-30 minutes postworkout and have found the 5-minutes postworkout dosing to be VASTLY superior to any other dosing protocol. I know it isn't the most practical for most of us, but I'm saying what I have seen on myself.

Gains out of IGF-1 are difficult to account for. Firstly, it is much more a recomposition compound than a mass or fatloss compound. On AAS, the gains are "this many lbs of LBM". On clen /Thyroid, gains are "so many lbs of flab". On IGF-1 the gains are "some fatloss, some muscle gain/retention, and this many new cells that I will grow in the coming months".

But suffice it to say that my first experimentation protocol was 5 minutes postworkout in my biceps, delts and chest because my previous research had indicated that the postworkout window was limited, and because those were my lagging bodypart. My biceps went from 17" to 17½" in the first 2 weeks along with some fatloss and another ½" in the 2 months afterward, my DB curls going from 55 x 10 to 65 x 10. That was after 12 years of natural training, with genetic potential pretty maxed out. Chest and delt results I did not even attempt to quantify but the difference was clearly visible.

[ss01]

On another board there was a log where the guy was shooting only his biceps because he read that local effects were little and his bis were lagging. A couple months after his log was done I asked about his biceps and he said they had now taken the lead in his muscular development.

[ss01]

WOW this thread is awesome. I am 100% with you on the conservitave part, why put your health and life and for alot of of us here LOOKS in jepordy? On the other hand I must be the devils advocate, even though I feel a bit overwhelmed by some of these knowledgable bros...

Could this change with large doses of AAS? I could be wrong. Completely so, but with verry large amounts of certain anabolics your IGF raises drasticaly. Why would this not result in some for of perma gut?
I beleive GH can cause some organ growth correct? Maybe that has a different mechanism but it seams this only happens at verry high doses over verry long periods of time.
Why do we not see such organ growth with the use of extreme amounts of AAS over periods of years? And a more importantly, if you were to take large doses of AAS especialy those of the stronger breed do you think that the doses could increase, perhaps from increasing the rate of the receptors processing the IGF-1r3.

Also wouldn't it be verry usefull to use this chemical post cardio because of the blood pumping so drasticaly to the muscle sites, even pre or mid cardio work out?

I'm sorry if I'm being dense, I gotta ask the questions!!

Those are actually some very good questions. The answers are equally good.

There are two completely different ways in which IGF-1 is produced in the body. Even the IGF-1 molecule itself is slightly different in each case. The first, well known case, is where GH & Slin are used by the liver to make IGF-1 which is then released into the bloodstream. AAS has little to no bearing on this systemic, or "paracrine" IGF-1. It just circulates in the bloodstream and eventually finds an IGF-1 receptor on the outside surface of a cell and attaches to it, activating it.

The other pathway, the one that is rarely discussed, is the autocrine pathway. This is where a cell will produce its own IGF-1, a slightly different peptide than the systemic, for its own internal use. It is produced inside the cell, and acts on receptors within the cell. This is the pathway that AAS will greatly upregulate. This IGF-1 never leaves the cell.

So on one hand you have the systemic with its effects on the surface receptor and you have the autocrine with its effects on the internal receptor. So obviously when you know this it becomes obvious that the IGF-1 from AAS - the autocrine - will never give you the GH gut because the IGF-1 that it makes your cells produce never leaves the cell itself, it doesn't circulate around to go attach to an intestinal wall receptor.

The pathway through which GH causes organ growth *IS* systemic IGF-1. Most of the effects of GH are actually effects of IGF-1. GH is simply not very active on many cells but it is much converted by the liver into IGF-1 and this is what mediates the effects of GH. As I posted above, there ARE some effects of GH that are not mediated through IGF-1 but most of them are.

As far as upregulating the surface receptors through AAS usage, I have seen no evidence that points that way, but that is not entirely impossible. Improbable, but not impossible.

As far as pinning post-cardio, I don't see it. In my opinion, for bodybuilders IGF-1 has two main purposes: firstly hyperplasia, its main use, and secondly general tissue repair, meaning healing and preventing injury. Ligaments aren't repaired by IGF-1 but they're a rare exception. It is too expensive and too good at better things IMO to be wasted on a simple pump.

[ss01]

How would one transport this to the gym for post wo injection? What's the best way to maintain integrity, avoid heat and not losse any?

Suggestions?

Diluted in AA, it is stable for a year at 98 degrees F. Of course, the insides of your car in the midst of a sunny summer day will be much hotter than that. Not the inside of your locker though.

What I always do is to load up a syringe with just the needed amount of IGF & AA, then use a small amount of aluminum foil to make a spacer between the end of the plunger and the cylinder to avoid discharging the syringe in transit, and put this and a couple alcohol pads and my BW inside a sunglass case in my gym bag.

I grab my bag after my workout, go change in the shower or toilet and pin at the same time. Then I get my shake.

IGF-1 is totally legal, so even if you get caught with some in a syringe, even if it comes to that, the police can only apologize politely for the trouble of questioning you and all that.

I still don't see how someone is going to find out what I do in my toilet stall though...

Never was a problem for me. I know a guy who tried in his car and was seen a few times, and got in some crazy situations with that. No police or anything, just zany adventures of a stressed guy.

[ss01]

Note: I use "Hyperplasia" in the above posts, knowing it isn't the exact word for growth of new myoblasts. Close enough I guess.

[ss01]

Great info Grunt....I always like reading your stuff. I am in the middle of a 16week AAS cycle, and I started it using IGF, by the end of this 16 weeker I should have not only larger cells from the AAS but new cells from the IGF that are now larger cause of the AAS correct.

Indeed my friend. It should be noted that the new cells are myoblasts, pre-muscle cells, that will fuse with your existing muscle cells and donate their nucleii which are in fact myonucleii.

A muscle's protein-repair engine is the myonucleii. The more of them in a cell, the bigger the cell and the greater the ability to regenerate protein. This explains the permanent gains from IGF-1 in that the number of myonucleii does not easily decrease, which gives a cell a new minimum size. Unless of course a person undergoes starvation, but that's not the case around these parts. When we take AAS, it's the myonucleii that get stimulated into overdrive.

[ss01]

i was pinning it split up 50mcg in the AM upon waking and 50mcg PWO (usually within 10 min of working out).

Split-dosing is a perfect example of what one SHOULD NOT DO.

Yes, you will *FEEL* the IGF-1 at work: pumps, hypo, etc. But that's bad because it means that the receptors are getting some degree of saturation and you have the IGF-1 systemically distributed, meaning it is basically growing everything.

A lot of guys expect to FEEL something working. I mean, pin 100mg Tren ED, how many days until you FEEL something? Not long, right! Gear grows you WHILE you're on it. IGF-1 is used to make more satellite cells to increase the growth POTENTIAL. If you grow the POTENTIAL enough, yes you will fell it working but that would be like using enough gear to see growth in the first week of a cycle. Highly unreasonable.

But because IGF-1 is very different from gear, but everyone knows what to expect from gear, they project that onto IGF-1, which is totally unreasonable. It would be like expecting to lose 10lbs a week because you do cardio. By the time you're doing enough cardio to lose 10lbs a week, you're doing more wrong than good.

So, the only feeling from IGF-1 should be lethargy/hypo, which means it's working.

[gettnthere]

I know this doesnt matter to some guys,but it does to me... I have been researching IGF-1 and have come across some studies that say elevated IGF-1 levels is believed to be responsible for some Male Pattern Baldness?Mainly on the vertex.I thought GH was good for hair,skin,etc....Any knowledge on that

[Random]

and have come across some studies that say elevated IGF-1 levels is believed to be responsible for some Male Pattern Baldness?Mainly on the vertex

Could you post the studies plz?

[gettnthere]

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=175072

Scroll thru the whole response..its like a forum format but with references to doctors and studies..let me know what you think

[groundandpoundpwr21]

So wait. Are you grunt72 on outlaw or did you steal his post and make it yours?

[ss01]

Yes I am Grunt76. This is my old handle, which got me some flak because some people assumed that ss01 means nazi. I kept it at some boards where I don't post much. Actually, this is the last one.

Hey, you didn't even PM me at Outlaw. I would want to get a PM when someone is stealing my work.

[pscarb]

very very intresting read many thanks for that....i am always intrested in useing alternative methods to the norm...

i have one question though

It means that if you are injecting upwards of 50mcg of IGF-1 you are growing your intestines. Yes you are also growing muscle and you may be getting leaner in the process. Your waistline looks trimmer. Nice. A few months down the line, your new intestinal cells will be of their full adult size and you will have acquired the perma-bloat look. Guaranteed. Maybe not Coleman-size perma-gut, but SOME perma-gut and it will keep growing. Guaranteed. Just as your new muscle cells can keep growing and growing IF you pin IGF-1 in a way to maximize new muscle cell creation.

last year for 11months i was off AAS and only use IGF-1LR3 and GH to maintain Muscle, i competed at the end of these 11months and took the overall title but the thing that was the most impressive was my very lean waist in fact it was 2" smaller but my BF5 was no more lower than the year before......
i was using between 60-80mcg's of IGF-1LR3 if your theory is correct would my waist actually grow rather than get smaller......just a question...

[gettnthere]

So no one knows anything about IGF-1 levels and hairloss...ive asked a few times and it just gets looked over.

Ive found studies that say both ways but Id like to hear personal knowledge not some in-depth study that says it MAY affect it..

ss01,u got anything on this or is it just not really known yet??

[SMYL_GR8]

Great post. Muchas grassy-ass.

[ss01]

very very intresting read many thanks for that....i am always intrested in useing alternative methods to the norm...

i have one question though

last year for 11months i was off AAS and only use IGF-1LR3 and GH to maintain Muscle, i competed at the end of these 11months and took the overall title but the thing that was the most impressive was my very lean waist in fact it was 2" smaller but my BF5 was no more lower than the year before......
i was using between 60-80mcg's of IGF-1LR3 if your theory is correct would my waist actually grow rather than get smaller......just a question...

Perhaps you are large enough that these large doses did not grow your organs much. Responses are highly individual and for this reason, I post relatively conservative amounts. There are exceptions to every rule. Still, if I were you I'd be watchful of organ growth in the coming months. I feel that you will see it.

[pscarb]

i understand that their are always an exception to the rule...

i am 5'5" tall and approx 210lbs in the off season...the doses i use seem to do the trick so no need in increasing them any higher, so what doses do you think i will see organ growth in the next few months if i have not seen any in the last 18months...??

the only reason i ask is that making a claim that you will eventually see Organ Growth on IGF-1LR3 is pretty big....

[Zelos]

Diluted in AA, it is stable for a year at 98 degrees F. Of course, the insides of your car in the midst of a sunny summer day will be much hotter than that. Not the inside of your locker though.

What I always do is to load up a syringe with just the needed amount of IGF & AA, then use a small amount of aluminum foil to make a spacer between the end of the plunger and the cylinder to avoid discharging the syringe in transit, and put this and a couple alcohol pads and my BW inside a sunglass case in my gym bag.

I grab my bag after my workout, go change in the shower or toilet and pin at the same time. Then I get my shake.

IGF-1 is totally legal, so even if you get caught with some in a syringe, even if it comes to that, the police can only apologize politely for the trouble of questioning you and all that.

I still don't see how someone is going to find out what I do in my toilet stall though...

Never was a problem for me. I know a guy who tried in his car and was seen a few times, and got in some crazy situations with that. No police or anything, just zany adventures of a stressed guy.

Hi SS01,
when you say AA , what do you mean ?
sorry i really don't know

thanks

[SHAGGY]

Acetic Acid

SHAGGY

[ss01]

i understand that their are always an exception to the rule...

i am 5'5" tall and approx 210lbs in the off season...the doses i use seem to do the trick so no need in increasing them any higher, so what doses do you think i will see organ growth in the next few months if i have not seen any in the last 18months...??

the only reason i ask is that making a claim that you will eventually see Organ Growth on IGF-1LR3 is pretty big....

You should see the number of PM's confirming it. Obviously people keep this to themselves and I will not tell you the names of guys who grew turtle-guts out of their ventures in the high-dose ranges. It's for real, bro. Not for everyone at the same doses, but I have guys telling me they've done 200mcg for 3 months and they had their best physique ever. A year afterwards, their waistline is 4" bigger, even ripped. Just be careful.

Now you state 18months, before that you mentioned 11 months. If for example, you do 1month ON, 1month OFF and you started at 40, then 40 again, then 50, then 60, then 80, then 100, that's a YEAR right there. So if you did such a thing, then you've only been using high doses for the last 3 months or so. That's not long enough for gut growth to show up.

And yet, you might be safe, even doing that. I'M saying that there is RISK of organ growth with large doses, not CERTAINTY of turtle gut at 80mcg for a month. Get me?

[Zelos]

so you mean with Acetic Acid you can keep igf for months on the fridge ?

thanks.


thanks SHAGGY

[SHAGGY]

No problem Zelos

SHAGGY

[pscarb]

SS01 - i have been using IGF-1LR3 for 18months in total....from may-05 to April-06 (11months) i trained and competed without any steroids only used GH and IGF-1LR3 all i am saying is that my waist reduced not got bigger in this time...

now i am sure you have got a lot of Pm's about this but you mention doses upwards of 50mcg's but then mention 200mcg's now after reading your post's i can see that you articulate but a dosing range between 50 - 200mcg's is a pretty wide margin so again i do have to say that what you have claimed about intestinal growth is a pretty big claim....can i ask if there is any studies/science that have documented such a thing??

you also mention guys who have done 200mcg's for 3 months ?? is this straight or they did 1month of 200mcg's ed then took a month off the reason i ask is that all the research i have read and from my own experiences pretty much 6-7 weeks is max for IGF before your receptors close??
also when all these guys who have grown their intestines where they using other substances like AAS/GH/Slin or just IGF-1LR3 if they where using other substances did this have an impact on the amount of IGF they took to notice the enlarged waist??

please don't take my questions as a challenge to your person just questions to understand your statements so that their is no confusion....

[InsaneInTheMembrane]

Hey ss01, thanx for the info
I am doing IGF LR3 igtropin right now for 5 weeks (50 mcgs/day)

I've read up on RedBaron's posts especially where he says reconstitution with vinegar (AA) is ideal, same like you suggested..But I was wondering

1. If I am going to be using 1 vial (100 mcgs) up in two days, can I just use the sterile water provided?
2. Does not using AA/Vinegar shorten the stability of the IGF LR3 to as low as 24 hrs?
3. Does reconstituing in AA make the IGF work better when injected?

answers appreciated,
thanx bro

[gettingBIGGERfast]

Most protocols people advocate on these boards are eveyday either PWO and in the morning on non-workout days, or x2 a day, cycled 4 weeks on 4 weeks off. If one is using IGF EOD or E3D, does it need to be cycled in this manner or can one run it as long as needed?

Awsome posts btw...thanx bro

[ss01]

SS01 - i have been using IGF-1LR3 for 18months in total....from may-05 to April-06 (11months) i trained and competed without any steroids only used GH and IGF-1LR3 all i am saying is that my waist reduced not got bigger in this time...

now i am sure you have got a lot of Pm's about this but you mention doses upwards of 50mcg's but then mention 200mcg's now after reading your post's i can see that you articulate but a dosing range between 50 - 200mcg's is a pretty wide margin so again i do have to say that what you have claimed about intestinal growth is a pretty big claim....can i ask if there is any studies/science that have documented such a thing??

you also mention guys who have done 200mcg's for 3 months ?? is this straight or they did 1month of 200mcg's ed then took a month off the reason i ask is that all the research i have read and from my own experiences pretty much 6-7 weeks is max for IGF before your receptors close??
also when all these guys who have grown their intestines where they using other substances like AAS/GH/Slin or just IGF-1LR3 if they where using other substances did this have an impact on the amount of IGF they took to notice the enlarged waist??

please don't take my questions as a challenge to your person just questions to understand your statements so that their is no confusion....

Well, what information I have is limited. I only know of 2 cases where 80mcg was enough to make some gut growth (not an actual turtle gut, but waistline expansion even when ripped). Most cases are above 100mcg. AAS are often involved, but then again I don't have all the details.

As you so astutely report, on one hand I put 50mcg and on the other 200mcg. There is no set "line" that you shouldn't cross. For example, you KNOW that taking 200mcg of clen at the beginning of your clen cycle could give you a heart attack and kill you. Will it for sure? What is the minimum amount of clen that will kill you? No one knows. We know that 50mcg is safe, and that 200mcg MAY be OK after some tolerance has built. In many cases 100mcg is the maximum.

Well the same goes for IGF-1. I am advocating lower dosages because one thing that you can't tell with IGF-1 is if it is having its adverse effect at THIS dose. With clen it's easy: if your heart is going at 120bpm at rest, well that's your max dose right there. Right? Well considering that with IGF-1 it takes months to see the whole growth out of it, there is no going by feel. "Hey I'm taking 200mcg ED and I don't feel my guts growing". 6 months down the line, things are different.

The tissue with the highest amount of IGF-1 receptors is the intestine. This is widely available knowledge. No need for studies on an established FACT.

[ss01]

Hey ss01, thanx for the info
I am doing IGF LR3 igtropin right now for 5 weeks (50 mcgs/day)

I've read up on RedBaron's posts especially where he says reconstitution with vinegar (AA) is ideal, same like you suggested..But I was wondering

1. If I am going to be using 1 vial (100 mcgs) up in two days, can I just use the sterile water provided?
2. Does not using AA/Vinegar shorten the stability of the IGF LR3 to as low as 24 hrs?
3. Does reconstituing in AA make the IGF work better when injected?

answers appreciated,
thanx bro

I always get my IGF with AA and reconstitute it with that. Gropep recommends AA. You will PERHAPS be OK with BW. I do not know for sure. I always get the 1mg vials, so BW is always out of the question. You just might be OK, but why not order some sterile AA? It is very inexpensive.

[ss01]

Most protocols people advocate on these boards are eveyday either PWO and in the morning on non-workout days, or x2 a day, cycled 4 weeks on 4 weeks off. If one is using IGF EOD or E3D, does it need to be cycled in this manner or can one run it as long as needed?

Awsome posts btw...thanx bro

Yes there are many protocols out there. The only protocol that can possibly be run indefinitely is the one where you inject ONLY IMMEDIATELY postworkout in the (lagging) muscle trained and E3D. With a reasonable dose, you might be able to keep getting results for many months on end. All the other ones will downregulate the receptors very quickly, unless the dose is very low, at which point you would have more results by keeping the same weekly amount but do the only PWO thing.

[pscarb]

SS01 - i take it from your reply you are getting annoyed at my enquires into what you have said, i don't understand why because i am only trying to fully understand what you are saying.

i would definatly agree that if someone was to use 200mcg's ed for the whole cycle then the sides including waist growth would be highly likely but my concern was that originaly you did clearly state 50mcg's and above which i do have a hard time believing that at this dose enlargment of the waist would happen.

i am fully aware that the majority of the IGF-1 receptors are in the intestines and this is why i never advocate Sub-q injections in the stomach...

i do want to ask again though...
when all these guys who have grown their intestines where they using other substances like AAS/GH/Slin or just IGF-1LR3 if they where using other substances did this have an impact on the amount of IGF they took to notice the enlarged waist??
i would like your reply on this though Bro as i think this might have a big impact on what you are saying...and it could mean that the intestines are growing because of a combination of substances rather than just IGF-1LR3 unless the subjects you are talking about only ever used IGF-1LR3??

remember we only learn by asking questions of others....

[ss01]

SS01 - i take it from your reply you are getting annoyed at my enquires into what you have said, i don't understand why because i am only trying to fully understand what you are saying.

i would definatly agree that if someone was to use 200mcg's ed for the whole cycle then the sides including waist growth would be highly likely but my concern was that originaly you did clearly state 50mcg's and above which i do have a hard time believing that at this dose enlargment of the waist would happen.

i am fully aware that the majority of the IGF-1 receptors are in the intestines and this is why i never advocate Sub-q injections in the stomach...

i do want to ask again though...
when all these guys who have grown their intestines where they using other substances like AAS/GH/Slin or just IGF-1LR3 if they where using other substances did this have an impact on the amount of IGF they took to notice the enlarged waist??
i would like your reply on this though Bro as i think this might have a big impact on what you are saying...and it could mean that the intestines are growing because of a combination of substances rather than just IGF-1LR3 unless the subjects you are talking about only ever used IGF-1LR3??

remember we only learn by asking questions of others....

No, I have not felt annoyed by your questions. My data is very limited as I pointed out. Just some guys showing up in my inbox going "Yeah man keep telling them to take it easy, I got this gut from so much IGF..." I ask what dosage was used and sometimes what cycle was done. Sometimes I get an answer and sometimes I don't. These messages have show up over time and I did not keep records and statistics. About a half-dozen people reported they got guts from 80-200mcg in the last 6 months. Other data is little and sparse. I'm just saying, take it easy on the dosage. I cannot assert more than I have out of what data I have.

[InsaneInTheMembrane]

I always get my IGF with AA and reconstitute it with that. Gropep recommends AA. You will PERHAPS be OK with BW. I do not know for sure. I always get the 1mg vials, so BW is always out of the question. You just might be OK, but why not order some sterile AA? It is very inexpensive.

Thanx man, will get off my lazy @$$ and order me some

cheers

[pscarb]

No, I have not felt annoyed by your questions. My data is very limited as I pointed out. Just some guys showing up in my inbox going "Yeah man keep telling them to take it easy, I got this gut from so much IGF..." I ask what dosage was used and sometimes what cycle was done. Sometimes I get an answer and sometimes I don't. These messages have show up over time and I did not keep records and statistics. About a half-dozen people reported they got guts from 80-200mcg in the last 6 months. Other data is little and sparse. I'm just saying, take it easy on the dosage. I cannot assert more than I have out of what data I have.

Well we totally agree then i am all for starting low and not to raise it until the effect warrant it.
The guys i advise always start on 40mcg's and never go over 80mcg's only because i have seen great results with these doses...

Like i have said i have been using for 18months and on my present 4 week cycle during in PCT i have raised it to 100mcg's Mon - Fri to see what the results are....if they are no better then i will go back.....

i find your post's on this subject very intresting mate...as anacdotal information is all we can go by with IGF-1LR3

[G-Force]

very interesting read
good work SS01
much appreciated

i'm gonna reduce my dose and use PWO only next time
cheers

[ss01]

I want to add that a couple things that create a lot of bad noise around IGF-1 is this: some people sell it with just BW and no acid, which ensures the stuff remains active only a few days inside the vials. (24hours guaranteed!) In turn, someone stretching that vial for any length of time will see little results, although high-dosers will be very happy. The other thing is the guys selling hCG and slin as IGF-1 or heck, other things like GHRP or similar peptides.

[Ironman5151]

Great post ss01.

[perfectbeast2001]

It was an interesting read. I think you need to be careful with the scaremongering though. On reading your piece it would have many believe that shooting more than 50mcg is going to cause problems. This is not backed up with any evidence apart from the fact you say you got some PMs. You then side step this when pressed and say over 200mcg then say actually you don't know what dosage could lead to intestinal growth.
So in a nutshell IGF may or may not at an unknown dosage cause intestinal growth.

[Property of Steroid.com]

It was an interesting read. I think you need to be careful with the scaremongering though. On reading your piece it would have many believe that shooting more than 50mcg is going to cause problems. This is not backed up with any evidence apart from the fact you say you got some PMs. You then side step this when pressed and say over 200mcg then say actually you don't know what dosage could lead to intestinal growth.
So in a nutshell IGF may or may not at an unknown dosage cause intestinal growth.

Agreed. I get around 100-200 e-mails a day, and only when I see a huge amount of them leaning towards a certain trend am I confident in saying that something is up. A few PMs isn't really anything....but if you only get a few PMs a day, then it's enough to say "100% of the people I know" or "Half the people who talked to me..." when in reality we're only getting a sample of around 5-10 people.