chiropractor? do they work? med insurance?

[MuscleScience]

Right.
I have been very generous in my posts. I have no problem with DC who restrict themselves to MS symptoms and are quick to refer anything else to a physician. This is a rarity in chiropractic.

Do you have proof of this?

[BrokenBricks]

Do you have proof of this?

I am not sure the best way to make my point here. I'm going to post two pieces of information. One is just a common cartoon meant to describe the relation a given vertebral segment has to disease. The great majority of this cartoon is just demonstrably false. Your optic nerve is a cranial nerve which never enters the spinal canal, yet in the diagram it is associated with C2 somehow. This is anatomy. It is not up for debate.

More relevant to your point. Look at the "effects"....I mean, its shocking. T3 dysfunction causes bronchitis? T11 pimples? Apart for the patent absurdity of all this to anyone with ANY rigorous medical training the point is made. This is what the DC thinks he knows something about. At the end of the day it is just a picture and anyone can come in and say "Well *I* have this other view of things"....such a response is possible for any critique...what is important is not what one specific DC does, it is what the profession stands for and their total rejection of any scientific method of verifying their claims.




Just as telling, here is a news article on a survey sent to DCs. I can post the actual study, but it is easier to just communicate the results. Take a look at this: This was a survey of about 700 DCs...you wont believe it:


"From a list of 24 clinical services and privileges, a majority of respondents deemed 21 of the items "appropriate for the chiropractic profession's scope of practice," while three of the procedures (colonics, obstetrics and minor surgery) were rejected by the majority. Results were as follows: home-based exercise (98.6% responding "yes"); orthotics/pillows (97.7%); clinic-based exercise (96.9%); vitamins and minerals (96.7%); collars, supports and braces (96.6%); acupressure (94.0%); modalities (electrical muscle stimulation, etc.) (93.5%); massage (93.1%); herbs (91.1%); TENS (90.6%); thermography (88.6%); surface EMG (86.9%); homeopathic medicines (82.1%); acupuncture (76.8%);hospital admitting privileges (74.2%);in-house labs (68.2%); manipulation under anesthesia (67.2%); casting (62.0%); venipuncture (60.6%); ECG (EKG) (59.4%); needle EMG (56.7%); colonics (39.6%); obstetrics (31.1%); and minor surgery (23.5%)."


First, Homeopathy? Holy shit.

Admitting privileges? Who is a DC seeing who is so sick they need to stay in the hospital?

[MuscleScience]

I am not sure the best way to make my point here. I'm going to post two pieces of information. One is just a common cartoon meant to describe the relation a given vertebral segment has to disease. The great majority of this cartoon is just demonstrably false. Your optic nerve is a cranial nerve which never enters the spinal canal, yet in the diagram it is associated with C2 somehow. This is anatomy. It is not up for debate.

More relevant to your point. Look at the "effects"....I mean, its shocking. T3 dysfunction causes bronchitis? T11 pimples? Apart for the patent absurdity of all this to anyone with ANY rigorous medical training the point is made. This is what the DC thinks he knows something about. At the end of the day it is just a picture and anyone can come in and say "Well *I* have this other view of things"....such a response is possible for any critique...what is important is not what one specific DC does, it is what the profession stands for and their total rejection of any scientific method of verifying their claims.




Just as telling, here is a news article on a survey sent to DCs. I can post the actual study, but it is easier to just communicate the results. Take a look at this: This was a survey of about 700 DCs...you wont believe it:


"From a list of 24 clinical services and privileges, a majority of respondents deemed 21 of the items "appropriate for the chiropractic profession's scope of practice," while three of the procedures (colonics, obstetrics and minor surgery) were rejected by the majority. Results were as follows: home-based exercise (98.6% responding "yes"); orthotics/pillows (97.7%); clinic-based exercise (96.9%); vitamins and minerals (96.7%); collars, supports and braces (96.6%); acupressure (94.0%); modalities (electrical muscle stimulation, etc.) (93.5%); massage (93.1%); herbs (91.1%); TENS (90.6%); thermography (88.6%); surface EMG (86.9%); homeopathic medicines (82.1%); acupuncture (76.8%);hospital admitting privileges (74.2%);in-house labs (68.2%); manipulation under anesthesia (67.2%); casting (62.0%); venipuncture (60.6%); ECG (EKG) (59.4%); needle EMG (56.7%); colonics (39.6%); obstetrics (31.1%); and minor surgery (23.5%)."


First, Homeopathy? Holy shit.

Admitting privileges? Who is a DC seeing who is so sick they need to stay in the hospital?

I fail to see your point?, so you dont believe in homeopathy. It is not something that is taught in any chiropractic schools. A DC is a portal of entry provider. If someone comes in with a headache which is a very common thing for a DC to see. They may be displaying signs of CVA, they would surely have them admitted to a hospital. MVA patients come in all the time complaining of back pain or neck pain. Only to find out that they may have some sort of fracture upon xray and examination. Certainly they would have them admitted to the hospital.

I suggest you read up on the Wilkes vs AMA of 1975 and you will find out just how biased the AMA was/is towards chiropractic. All because they wouldnt surrender and be absorbed my medicine as the DO profession reluctantly did.

I am a scientist, I have publications to my credit. I can be open minded to things that I do not know nothing about, such as your lack of knowledge of chiropractic. I have DC's as friends, they certainly do not believe in snake oil and fringe science. You fail to relies that there are quacks in every profession. You only hear about the bad, to be honest. I have had 5 surgeries 4 of which were complete failures as not fault of my own. My grandmother was mis-diagnosed with diabetes and CF for ten years before and had seen a plethora of doctors all of which missed her real problems. It took a DO doing her residency that was big into CAM and diet prescription to figure out that she was not diabetic and her medications were causing lung and kidney problems. Thus when they concluded her treatments and put her on the right stuff she suddenly didnt have CF anymore.

I have to be honest with you. In my dealings with MD's other than my orthopedist who sent me to a chiropractor for treatment. It has been nothing but negative. Both as a patient and as someone that has collaborated with them on various research ventures. My god do you guys take a research statistic class...

Medical arrogance is apparent, you guys do not know it all and many people are being driven away by modern medicine because a pill is not going to fix anything. Like I said I admire some aspects of medicine and I am not against it at all.There is a push newer doctors towards the collaborating with CAM practitioners like DO's and DC's. Hell I was about a week away from doing my MD/PhD before I figured out that other MD's look down on that, I said the hell with it I will be a PhD and not deal with it.

You being an ER doc is a pretty tough thing and you have to know your stuff, and be able to deal with constant stress and pressure situations. I know its hard, and no one on here is discounting that.

[BrokenBricks]

Homeopathy is a fringe as it gets. I cannot imagine how you could not agree having a science background. It flies in the face of *all* modern scientific knowledge. How learned are you about what those guys believe?

Homeopathy is not taught? All the more reason is it absurd that DC *use it*.

I don't understand the ease with which you brushed off that picture. Does it not show the DC make claims regarding disease throughout the body?

I don't know who your friends are. Needless to say this is not a discussion about your friends. In my training in research it is stressed that there are inherent weaknesses in personal anecdotes.

You understand that the DC don't actually *study* any of this. It is taught, and learned, but no one does the randomized controlled studies to validate it. Recently some MD's and PhD have gone about testing this for them. It goes without saying what the results are.

[BrokenBricks]

No one currently understands the mechanism of RSDS. Of the spectrum of signs and symptoms the causality is not known.

Lets not get distracted. You asked if i had evidence DC did more than treat MS problems. Have we settled that?

Are we in disagreement that Homeopathy is snake oil? (Sort of discussion over if we do. No competent scientist can see this as anything but nonsense. For those of you saying "Maybe be open minded?" Read about it. It will blow your mind if you have any background in science.)

Certainly you didn't say that pills don't treat anything?

[Doc.Sust]

I am not sure the best way to make my point here. I'm going to post two pieces of information. One is just a common cartoon meant to describe the relation a given vertebral segment has to disease. The great majority of this cartoon is just demonstrably false. Your optic nerve is a cranial nerve which never enters the spinal canal, yet in the diagram it is associated with C2 somehow. This is anatomy. It is not up for debate.

More relevant to your point. Look at the "effects"....I mean, its shocking. T3 dysfunction causes bronchitis? T11 pimples? Apart for the patent absurdity of all this to anyone with ANY rigorous medical training the point is made. This is what the DC thinks he knows something about. At the end of the day it is just a picture and anyone can come in and say "Well *I* have this other view of things"....such a response is possible for any critique...what is important is not what one specific DC does, it is what the profession stands for and their total rejection of any scientific method of verifying their claims.




Just as telling, here is a news article on a survey sent to DCs. I can post the actual study, but it is easier to just communicate the results. Take a look at this: This was a survey of about 700 DCs...you wont believe it:


"From a list of 24 clinical services and privileges, a majority of respondents deemed 21 of the items "appropriate for the chiropractic profession's scope of practice," while three of the procedures (colonics, obstetrics and minor surgery) were rejected by the majority. Results were as follows: home-based exercise (98.6% responding "yes"); orthotics/pillows (97.7%); clinic-based exercise (96.9%); vitamins and minerals (96.7%); collars, supports and braces (96.6%); acupressure (94.0%); modalities (electrical muscle stimulation, etc.) (93.5%); massage (93.1%); herbs (91.1%); TENS (90.6%); thermography (88.6%); surface EMG (86.9%); homeopathic medicines (82.1%); acupuncture (76.8%);hospital admitting privileges (74.2%);in-house labs (68.2%); manipulation under anesthesia (67.2%); casting (62.0%); venipuncture (60.6%); ECG (EKG) (59.4%); needle EMG (56.7%); colonics (39.6%); obstetrics (31.1%); and minor surgery (23.5%)."


First, Homeopathy? Holy shit.

Admitting privileges? Who is a DC seeing who is so sick they need to stay in the hospital?

ok buddy, i dont feel like locking horns so i am not. first off, that chart you posted is a crock of crap.i dont know one other DC who even follows or looks at that chart. i treat musculoskeletal injuries and do PT. i specialize in work comp and personal injury cases. i have 2 practices and i am part owner of an MRI center. one of my partners in business is a DO and majority of our referrals come from MD's ,DO's and lawyers. i work hand in hand with orthopods, neuro and pain management dr's and we refer back and forth.

i dont claim to be able to cure cancer, treat gun shot wounds or severe trauma. i dont think chiro. is the cure all treatment for anything. i believe in medicine BUT i also do believe chiro has a place in healthcare. Conservative care can and does work. it is a much better option for a disc bulge or herniation than immediate surgery. of course it always doesnt work, but the people that it does work for are thankful they didnt have to take it to the next level of surgery or a spinal fusion. for example did you know the success rate for a multiple spinal fusion surgery is only 15%!

http://www.spinaldisorders.com/spina...d=39&Itemid=42

another example
"Todd Albert, MD"

"This is a very helpful article for patients contemplating lumbar fusion surgery. Patients with back and/or leg pain should attempt prolonged NON-OPERATIVE treatment prior to embarking on a path toward lumbar fusion. Remember that fusion will be much more helpful for certain diagnoses (degenerative spondylolisthesis, isthmic spondylolisthesis, and documented instability) and not so predictable for others (degenerative disc disease without instability)."

apparently i am not alone. the insurance companies pay me and recognize me as a Dr./health care provider. my patients continue to comeback to me and so as long as they continue too, i have no problem if you dont consider me by your elite title of Dr. frankly,i can care less.

it seems to me you have been grossly misinformed about my profession and came up with this grandioso conclusion by reading a few articles and repeating others opinions based on what you may have been told wether or not if it was truly fact or fiction. but you have no idea about our education, credentialing,or licensing. i assume you never have been to a chiro, with that being said, how do you know what a chiro really knows or does? by the way, those who have educated me through school where phd's in anatomy, neuro science, infectious disease and bio-chemistry. my histology teacher was an MD, and other courses that i cant think off of hand by DC's and DO's. take a look at some of the curriculum, i think you would be surprised, it wasnt mickey mouse bullshit and good times. it was a bitch.

i dont pretend to be as qualified or more qualified than any other health care professional. i know my scope of practice and when something falls out of my scope of practice, i refer out to someone who's scope of practice it is.

[BrokenBricks]

I am happy to hear you limit your scope of practice to MS conditions. My biggest beef with this is that many don't. I could spend all night producing case after case.

As you well know there is a dramatic difference in practice habit among DC.

I am not an orthopedist and cannot speak to the success rate of surgery for back pain. But posting articles supporting conservative therapy over operative therapy is not either a condemnation of M.D.s nor support of chiro.

If you are honest with your patients about the service you provide than more power to you. Seeing "Physician" as your employment on your profile is not a sign that that is the case.

[Doc.Sust]

. Seeing "Physician" as your employment on your profile is not a sign that that is the case.

the reason it says that in the first place was to be vague about what i do for a living. if you havent noticed , we are on a STEROID board!!!!! not good for keep our licenses? right. as time went on here, i started speaking to more people and let the cat out of the bag. started to post articles, help people with questions etc etc.

again lets not get caught up in semantics. it is what it is. get over the title bullshit and move on

[Doc.Sust]

But posting articles supporting conservative therapy over operative therapy is not either a condemnation of M.D.s nor support of chiro.

neither is posting bogus charts and studies that support western medicine only and MD's and condemnation of DC's.

[BrokenBricks]

neither is posting bogus charts and studies that support western medicine only and MD's and condemnation of DC's.

It is past my bed time. If you are saying that that chart does not represent any part of DC education so be it. I pulled that picture off 3 different DC websites. *They* seem to believe it. This is not an indictment of what *you* personally believe.



Here is a sample of homeopathic thinking...not DC..homeopathic....

"The major criticism that some in the scientific community have had with homeopathy, concerns the point that homeopathy's specific attenuations are diluted beyond 24x. Theoretically there would not be any of the original molecules remaining in it, based upon Avogardro's number, which is 6,253 x 10-23 (the number of molecules in a mole of any substance). The faithful believers in the Newtonian physics cannot conceive any reality beyond this point. However, homeopaths do agree it is not the molecules that are responsible for its healing effects, but some form of molecular activity that works profoundly with the nervous system. Quantum physics offer many explanations of activity beyond the molecular.

One other theory explaining homeopathy's effectiveness beyond the molecular can be explained by Swedish plasma physicist and Nobel Laureate Hannes Alfevs' observations with physical matter and antimatter. Hannes Alfevs' has stated: "In the laboratory whenever we produce matter from energy we also produce equal amounts of matter and antimatter. Antimatter and matter have opposite electrical charges, and when they are combined they annihilate each other and release a great amount of energy."

Many believe that this appears to be an accurate description of how homeopathic remedies function in the body. Matter (the pathological condition) and antimatter (the homeopathic remedy) unite to produce relatively large amounts of energy. The body's nervous system can then utilize this specific energy pattern for its restoration or "

This is not "alternative"....this is quackery.

[MuscleScience]

It is past my bed time. If you are saying that that chart does not represent any part of DC education so be it. I pulled that picture off 3 different DC websites. *They* seem to believe it. This is not an indictment of what *you* personally believe.



Here is a sample of homeopathic thinking...not DC..homeopathic....

"The major criticism that some in the scientific community have had with homeopathy, concerns the point that homeopathy's specific attenuations are diluted beyond 24x. Theoretically there would not be any of the original molecules remaining in it, based upon Avogardro's number, which is 6,253 x 10-23 (the number of molecules in a mole of any substance). The faithful believers in the Newtonian physics cannot conceive any reality beyond this point. However, homeopaths do agree it is not the molecules that are responsible for its healing effects, but some form of molecular activity that works profoundly with the nervous system. Quantum physics offer many explanations of activity beyond the molecular.

One other theory explaining homeopathy's effectiveness beyond the molecular can be explained by Swedish plasma physicist and Nobel Laureate Hannes Alfevs' observations with physical matter and antimatter. Hannes Alfevs' has stated: "In the laboratory whenever we produce matter from energy we also produce equal amounts of matter and antimatter. Antimatter and matter have opposite electrical charges, and when they are combined they annihilate each other and release a great amount of energy."

Many believe that this appears to be an accurate description of how homeopathic remedies function in the body. Matter (the pathological condition) and antimatter (the homeopathic remedy) unite to produce relatively large amounts of energy. The body's nervous system can then utilize this specific energy pattern for its restoration or "

This is not "alternative"....this is quackery.

Maybe this will help your argument out a little, I know its anecdotal but it may help you out. There are more if you want them.

http://www.homeopathicdoctor.com/index.htm

[thegodfather]

Too many intellectual meatheads on this board now...Damnit....

Anyway, I think it would be hard to quantify how many DC's actually practice homeopathic medicine. I would hope that none do, but in every profession you will have people practicing on the fringes. Look at the MD's who have gotten in some serious legal shit over prescribing HRT to patients and HGH. Some people in medicine view them as quacks, and dont see any legitimate value in prescribing HGH and Testosterone for longevity purposes just because the FDA's "prescribing guidelines" say that it can only be used to treat X condition.

I am fully down with DC's who treat only MS related injury. Those who try to broaden their scope of practice to other areas, well we've already had this discussion in the lounge and my feelings on it are pretty well established. No adjustment in the world is going to treat cancer, or a myocardial infarction, lol and I dont think any DC in their right mind would say they could, but I'm sure there are a handful that would say they could....

[Doc.Sust]

It is past my bed time. If you are saying that that chart does not represent any part of DC education so be it. I pulled that picture off 3 different DC websites. *They* seem to believe it. This is not an indictment of what *you* personally believe.



Here is a sample of homeopathic thinking...not DC..homeopathic....

"The major criticism that some in the scientific community have had with homeopathy, concerns the point that homeopathy's specific attenuations are diluted beyond 24x. Theoretically there would not be any of the original molecules remaining in it, based upon Avogardro's number, which is 6,253 x 10-23 (the number of molecules in a mole of any substance). The faithful believers in the Newtonian physics cannot conceive any reality beyond this point. However, homeopaths do agree it is not the molecules that are responsible for its healing effects, but some form of molecular activity that works profoundly with the nervous system. Quantum physics offer many explanations of activity beyond the molecular.

One other theory explaining homeopathy's effectiveness beyond the molecular can be explained by Swedish plasma physicist and Nobel Laureate Hannes Alfevs' observations with physical matter and antimatter. Hannes Alfevs' has stated: "In the laboratory whenever we produce matter from energy we also produce equal amounts of matter and antimatter. Antimatter and matter have opposite electrical charges, and when they are combined they annihilate each other and release a great amount of energy."

Many believe that this appears to be an accurate description of how homeopathic remedies function in the body. Matter (the pathological condition) and antimatter (the homeopathic remedy) unite to produce relatively large amounts of energy. The body's nervous system can then utilize this specific energy pattern for its restoration or "

This is not "alternative"....this is quackery.

yes that is homeopathic nonsesne. thank you for clarifying that as nothing to do with DC's. it is junk.

[Kratos]

another example
"Todd Albert, MD"

"This is a very helpful article for patients contemplating lumbar fusion surgery. Patients with back and/or leg pain should attempt prolonged NON-OPERATIVE treatment prior to embarking on a path toward lumbar fusion. Remember that fusion will be much more helpful for certain diagnoses (degenerative spondylolisthesis, isthmic spondylolisthesis, and documented instability) and not so predictable for others (degenerative disc disease without instability)."

.

I've met that guy, he's a top notch surgeon.