Physique goal to reach naturally before starting AAS?

[AllKindsOGains]

My question is what you're guy's opinions are on where I should get to naturally before starting AAS. I understand that hormones are most important here, and that age will be the most important thing. However 6 years is a long time to wait. If I have a goal to reach natural before I started it would require time by default, but maybe less than 6 years (25 years old).

Stats: 162 lbs, 5'10"
Experience: 4 years training, 3 years bodybuilding
Genetics: I have the genetics of a marathon runner. My half-brother Tj VanGarderen has been in the Tour de France multiple times (long distance cycling)

Hey guys if you can I'd really appreciate some spotlight on this post! Tell people to come and give their opinions. Thanks!

To everyone who thinks that I made this post to have you justify a premature use of gear: Bodybuilding is my greatest passion. I UNDERSTAND that there are risks. I made this post so I had a goal to reach before I started. As I have said before, I am willing to work for this. I don't plan on starting before I am ready, but I will decide when that time is right, and I will be aware of the risks when that time comes. I am asking your opinion on a good goal for me to reach, as reaching that goal will take time, which is another (more important) variable in the equation.

[marcus300]

There's physique and hormonal IMHO and to be very honest with you like I have in the past starting steroids at 18-19yrs old at your level is a big no. You need to learn how to eat to build mass, size and put down some solid foundations on your frame. You need to learn how to train right to do this and you also need to learn how to eat correctly, like ive stated before you may think your doing both but at 160lbs after 4 yrs worth of training you don't but don't worry not many know how anyway and its a hard learning process understanding your body.

I would also wait till your hormones have fully developed and in the mean time work on the two areas above and build that soild base. Diet and training is screaming at me if you want my honest answer. Keep up the good work and be consistant in your approach but don't do anything stupid listen to the guys who know.

[AllKindsOGains]

There's physique and hormonal IMHO and to be very honest with you like I have in the past starting steroids at 18-19yrs old with at your level is a big no. You need to learn how to eat to build mass, size and put down some solid foundations on your frame. You need to learn how to train right to do this and you also need to learn how to eat correctly, like ive stated before you may think your doing both but at 160lbs after 4 yrs worth of training you don't but don't worry not many know how anyway and its a hard learning process understanding your body.

I would also wait till your hormones have fully developed and in the mean time work on the two areas above and build that sold base. Diet and training is screaming at me if you want my honest answer. Keep up the good work and be consistant in yoru approach but don't do anything stupid listen to the guys who know.

I count out 4,000 calories in a little notebook using a calculator and food scale every day. I have gotten there by slowly increasing calories when I stall gaining weight. I eat every 2-4 hours, and get at least a gram of protein per pound of body weight, with at least 50 grams of fat. The rest is spillover from either of those macros but mostly carbs. Every time I add calories it is in carbs.

Training: My split is Back, bis, abs; Legs, calves; Chest, tris, shoulders; repeat.
4-5 exercises per muscle group, always 3 sets or more (I do not count my sets, I do as many as I want)
I go as close to complete positive failure as I can every set excluding 1 warmup (I do not count reps, I go until I can't move the weight any more)
The last set of every exercise is a drop set or a rest pause (go to failure, rest 15 seconds, go again with the same weight)
The mantra I follow is: Go until I can't go anymore, don't pause for more than a second. Keep the tension on the muscle, so if I do pause pause at the contracted point of the movement. Come as close to complete positive failure as is possible. Give it everything.

No I don't know everything, and I strive to always learn more, but I do believe that this is a solid base of understanding. I have used training logs in the past, hypertrophy "plans", strength training protocols, 5x5, pyramiding routines, military style training, circuits, and more. I know I don't know everything, but I do have some experience. I'll be taking a look at your training and diet logs on this site marcus. Thanks for all your help!

[Khazima]

I count out 4,000 calories in a little notebook using a calculator and food scale every day. I have gotten there by slowly increasing calories when I stall gaining weight. I eat every 2-4 hours, and get at least a gram of protein per pound of body weight, with at least 50 grams of fat. The rest is spillover from either of those macros but mostly carbs. Every time I add calories it is in carbs.

Training: My split is Back, bis, abs; Legs, calves; Chest, tris, shoulders; repeat.
4-5 exercises per muscle group, always 3 sets or more (I do not count my sets, I do as many as I want)
I go as close to complete positive failure as I can every set excluding 1 warmup (I do not count reps, I go until I can't move the weight any more)
The last set of every exercise is a drop set or a rest pause (go to failure, rest 15 seconds, go again with the same weight)
The mantra I follow is: Go until I can't go anymore, don't pause for more than a second. Keep the tension on the muscle, so if I do pause pause at the contracted point of the movement. Come as close to complete positive failure as is possible. Give it everything.

No I don't know everything, and I strive to always learn more, but I do believe that this is a solid base of understanding. I have used training logs in the past, hypertrophy "plans", strength training protocols, 5x5, pyramiding routines, military style training, circuits, and more. I know I don't know everything, but I do have some experience. I'll be taking a look at your training and diet logs on this site marcus. Thanks for all your help!

The theory is good, but as you stated you've only put on 25lb in 4 years of training. That means you definitely haven't found what works for you unless 15 of those pounds came in the last 10-12 months, in which case you still have atleast 3-4 years until your progress is dramatically slow.

[< <Samson> >]

How big, or what do you wanna look like?

That's what I'd be asking


You look solid as fvck, just not big - it all depends on what you want.

Jumping on the sauce at any age is no joke. The earlier, the longer the battle.

[Sergio727]

Both of my parents are marathon runners lol i feel for you man.. Its up to you wen you start man.. Just consider all the risks.. Everyone says "if you cycle young youll be on trt til you die" but half the members here are on trt anyway haha. Theres def somethin to be said about stopping test production in our prime, and ive been thinkin about that alot lately

[Sergio727]

Btw i dont count reps/sets either and since i started that, ive seen the best results ive had! Good stuff man

[AllKindsOGains]

The theory is good, but as you stated you've only put on 25lb in 4 years of training. That means you definitely haven't found what works for you unless 15 of those pounds came in the last 10-12 months, in which case you still have atleast 3-4 years until your progress is dramatically slow.

25 lbs almost completely lean though Khazima. This isn't the heaviest I have ever been. So 25 lbs almost completely in muscle in 4 years natty? That can't be that bad right? Especially when over the last 4 years I haven't been on the same training program. Most of my gains have been in the last year with my current training style.

[AllKindsOGains]

How big, or what do you wanna look like?

That's what I'd be asking


You look solid as fvck, just not big - it all depends on what you want.


Jumping on the sauce at any age is no joke. The earlier, the longer the battle.

On drugs, as big as possible as lean as possible (but not contest shape year round of course). Natty, I want to get to the point where I can "earn" the gear, so the same goal. I want to make the most gains I can in my lifetime.

[< <Samson> >]

Well, it's up to you. You seem to def have enough info & sense to understand what is what.


But, unlike some - you aren't just genetically big. Yeah, you will still grow & you can def push yourself for a few more years naturally to see where you get.

[Sergio727]

Through natural training or aas, your just adding tissue..so if your goal is 200lbs, who cares when you start? Your either gaining tissue with or without aas so the weight at which you start is irrelevant.

[Khazima]

Through natural training or aas, your just adding tissue..so if your goal is 200lbs, who cares when you start? Your either gaining tissue with or without aas so the weight at which you start is irrelevant.

Except for the whole risking permanently damaging his endocrine system and needing TRT for the rest of his life..

AKOG (just though of a dope nickname for your username btw), 25lb is 1.5-2 year kinds of gains.

There's a table with a very rough estimate of muscle gain potential in the first few years and it states the potential for muscle growth in the first few years of training: year 1, 20-25lb. Year 2, 10-12lb. Year 3, 5-6lb. Year 4+, 2-3lb.

Obviously this is going to vary depending on the individual and their state before starting (ie malnourished like I was and gained 30-35lb LBM in 15 months)

So by this table you should be close to 180 by now, which I would say is a great goal to aim for before deciding whether you also want to take the risks of cycling so young.

[Sergio727]

Except for the whole risking permanently damaging his endocrine system and needing TRT for the rest of his life..

AKOG (just though of a dope nickname for your username btw), 25lb is 1.5-2 year kinds of gains.

There's a table with a very rough estimate of muscle gain potential in the first few years and it states the potential for muscle growth in the first few years of training: year 1, 20-25lb. Year 2, 10-12lb. Year 3, 5-6lb. Year 4+, 2-3lb.

Obviously this is going to vary depending on the individual and their state before starting (ie malnourished like I was and gained 30-35lb LBM in 15 months)

So by this table you should be close to 180 by now, which I would say is a great goal to aim for before deciding whether you also want to take the risks of cycling so young.

You told me i was wrong and restated the exact same thing as i did

[Khazima]

You told me i was wrong and restated the exact same thing as i did

You said it's irrelevant when he starts as putting on tissue is putting on tissue and I said age is very relevant? Not sure if I'm missing something.

[AllKindsOGains]

Except for the whole risking permanently damaging his endocrine system and needing TRT for the rest of his life..

AKOG (just though of a dope nickname for your username btw), 25lb is 1.5-2 year kinds of gains.

There's a table with a very rough estimate of muscle gain potential in the first few years and it states the potential for muscle growth in the first few years of training: year 1, 20-25lb. Year 2, 10-12lb. Year 3, 5-6lb. Year 4+, 2-3lb.

Obviously this is going to vary depending on the individual and their state before starting (ie malnourished like I was and gained 30-35lb LBM in 15 months)

So by this table you should be close to 180 by now, which I would say is a great goal to aim for before deciding whether you also want to take the risks of cycling so young.

AKOG it is then. 180 sounds like a worthy goal. If you guys would be willing, I really would appreciate some more spotlight on this post for an array of opinions. Let people know and ask them to chime in? Also, how long do you think it would take me to reach 180? I would say I could do it in less than 2 years.

[Sergio727]

My post had nothin to do with age. But for some reason you insist on saying everything i say is wrong

[marcus300]

AKOG it is then. 180 sounds like a worthy goal. If you guys would be willing, I really would appreciate some more spotlight on this post for an array of opinions. Let people know and ask them to chime in? Also, how long do you think it would take me to reach 180? I would say I could do it in less than 2 years.

So your disregarding the age thing now and concentrating on the weight, this is what happens when the blind lead the blind

all I can say is I tried and I guess your waiting for someone to tell you what you want to hear instead of whats right

best of luck

[Back In Black]

You said it's irrelevant when he starts as putting on tissue is putting on tissue and I said age is very relevant? Not sure if I'm missing something.

He is a lost cause mate. I'm happy for him to fvck himself up though lol

[AllKindsOGains]

So your disregarding the age thing now and concentrating on the weight, this is what happens when the blind lead the blind

all I can say is I tried and I guess your waiting for someone to tell you what you want to hear instead of whats right

best of luck

Marcus, read the post. Getting to that weight will take time. That is why I have the goal to work towards, so it can kill the two birds with one stone. I just really don't think I am waiting until 25.

[< <Samson> >]

It's tough to say how you will grow or not. From my experience - without sauce, I'm a walking pile

But, everyone is very different. . . . . But, when you hit the sauce it the same thing. You' don't know how much or how fast you will blow up.

[marcus300]

It's tough to say how you will grow or not. From my experience - without sauce, I'm a walking pile

But, everyone is very different. . . . . But, when you hit the sauce it the same thing. You' don't know how much or how fast you will blow up.

he's 160lbs at 18yrs old for fuks sake, are you insane!!!!!

jesus I cant open this thread again its free for all play time

[AllKindsOGains]

He is a lost cause mate. I'm happy for him to fvck himself up though lol

If you are referring to me you have missed the whole point.

[Back In Black]

If you are referring to me you have missed the whole point.

If you bothered to read the reply Khazima was referring to you would know I wasn't referring to you.

[< <Samson> >]

Personally if I was 18 & in your shape and wanted to get bigger, I'd eat a ton. Give a month a time & see what you gain

[EquilibriumZ]

Trust me, dont start atleast not at 18.
What you are doing is good just tweak it more and try to eat more than 4000 if u arent gaining with 4000
3 more years of natty you should look epic. But def dont start aas till 23+

[jesse4466]

The thing is without eating enough AAS will be pointless anyway. So get your eating in place the next few years, then study AAS at better time for body to handle it. Steroids are like gasoline but if you don't have the wood (food) on the fire, then u got a tiny fire that burns out quick.

Since I ended my cycle I've gained 10 more pounds of muscle. It's only been about 2 months .. But That is due only to me FINALLY understanding how to eat.

[davidtheman100]

Marcus, read the post. Getting to that weight will take time. That is why I have the goal to work towards, so it can kill the two birds with one stone. I just really don't think I am waiting until 25.

Even if you reach 180 sooner than you think, you still shouldn't cycle until the right age, if ever. At your age now, or even couple years down the road you will be just figuring out who you are as a person etc. and god forbid anything bad happens when you cycle you DO NOT have the stability to help yourself out if you fvck yourself up.

There is no reason to take a risk and the go down the most serious road to obtain a certain physique faster, when all you
need to do is a couple tweaks of your diet and training and you'll be there in no time. <--- 10x especially if you aren't competing.

PS: Having the genetics of a marathon runner is not good for bodybuilding

[Kozmo]

Why do you want to brake your dick. I just don't understand kids these days lol (pretending I am old)

[AllKindsOGains]

If you bothered to read the reply Khazima was referring to you would know I wasn't referring to you.

Well thanks then

[AllKindsOGains]

I count out 4,000 calories in a little notebook using a calculator and food scale every day. I have gotten there by slowly increasing calories when I stall gaining weight. I eat every 2-4 hours, and get at least a gram of protein per pound of body weight, with at least 50 grams of fat. The rest is spillover from either of those macros but mostly carbs. Every time I add calories it is in carbs.

Training: My split is Back, bis, abs; Legs, calves; Chest, tris, shoulders; repeat.
4-5 exercises per muscle group, always 3 sets or more (I do not count my sets, I do as many as I want)
I go as close to complete positive failure as I can every set excluding 1 warmup (I do not count reps, I go until I can't move the weight any more)
The last set of every exercise is a drop set or a rest pause (go to failure, rest 15 seconds, go again with the same weight)
The mantra I follow is: Go until I can't go anymore, don't pause for more than a second. Keep the tension on the muscle, so if I do pause pause at the contracted point of the movement. Come as close to complete positive failure as is possible. Give it everything.

No I don't know everything, and I strive to always learn more, but I do believe that this is a solid base of understanding. I have used training logs in the past, hypertrophy "plans", strength training protocols, 5x5, pyramiding routines, military style training, circuits, and more. I know I don't know everything, but I do have some experience. I'll be taking a look at your training and diet logs on this site marcus. Thanks for all your help!

Personally if I was 18 & in your shape and wanted to get bigger, I'd eat a ton. Give a month a time & see what you gain

I do eat a ton :-)

[AllKindsOGains]

Why do you want to brake your dick. I just don't understand kids these days lol (pretending I am old)

Bodybuilding (gains) are most important to me.

[AllKindsOGains]

I count out 4,000 calories in a little notebook using a calculator and food scale every day. I have gotten there by slowly increasing calories when I stall gaining weight. I eat every 2-4 hours, and get at least a gram of protein per pound of body weight, with at least 50 grams of fat. The rest is spillover from either of those macros but mostly carbs. Every time I add calories it is in carbs.

Training: My split is Back, bis, abs; Legs, calves; Chest, tris, shoulders; repeat.
4-5 exercises per muscle group, always 3 sets or more (I do not count my sets, I do as many as I want)
I go as close to complete positive failure as I can every set excluding 1 warmup (I do not count reps, I go until I can't move the weight any more)
The last set of every exercise is a drop set or a rest pause (go to failure, rest 15 seconds, go again with the same weight)
The mantra I follow is: Go until I can't go anymore, don't pause for more than a second. Keep the tension on the muscle, so if I do pause pause at the contracted point of the movement. Come as close to complete positive failure as is possible. Give it everything.

No I don't know everything, and I strive to always learn more, but I do believe that this is a solid base of understanding. I have used training logs in the past, hypertrophy "plans", strength training protocols, 5x5, pyramiding routines, military style training, circuits, and more. I know I don't know everything, but I do have some experience. I'll be taking a look at your training and diet logs on this site marcus. Thanks for all your help!

Even if you reach 180 sooner than you think, you still shouldn't cycle until the right age, if ever. At your age now, or even couple years down the road you will be just figuring out who you are as a person etc. and god forbid anything bad happens when you cycle you DO NOT have the stability to help yourself out if you fvck yourself up.

There is no reason to take a risk and the go down the most serious road to obtain a certain physique faster, when all you
need to do is a couple tweaks of your diet and training and you'll be there in no time. <--- 10x especially if you aren't competing.

PS: Having the genetics of a marathon runner is not good for bodybuilding

No shit on the genetics thing? It's still my favorite thing in the world. What tweaks do you recommend? And thanks for your help