Former Minister of Methodist Church - chooses Islam WHY ?

[zOaib]

There is some irony in the fact that the supposedly best, brightest, and most idealistic of ministers-to-be are selected for the very best of seminary education, e.g. that offered at that time at the Harvard Divinity School. The irony is that, given such an education, the seminarian is exposed to as much of the actual historical truth as is known about: 1) the formation of the early, "mainstream" church, and how it was shaped by geopolitical considerations; 2) the "original" reading of various Biblical texts, many of which are in sharp contrast to what most Christians read when they pick up their Bible, although gradually some of this information is being incorporated into newer and better translations; 3) the evolution of such concepts as a triune godhead and the "sonship" of Jesus, peace be upon him; 4) the non-religious considerations that underlie many Christian creeds and doctrines; 5) the existence of those early churches and Christian movements which never accepted the concept of a triune godhead, and which never accepted the concept of the divinity of Jesus, peace be upon him; and 6) etc. (Some of these fruits of my seminary education are recounted in more detail in my recent book, The Cross and the Crescent: An Interfaith Dialogue between Christianity and Islam, Amana Publications, 2001.)

As such, it is no real wonder that almost a majority of such seminary graduates leave seminary, not to "fill pulpits", where they would be asked to preach that which they know is not true, but to enter the various counseling professions. Such was also the case for me, as I went on to earn a master's and doctorate in clinical psychology. I continued to call myself a Christian, because that was a needed bit of self-identity, and because I was, after all, an ordained minister, even though my full time job was as a mental health professional. However, my seminary education had taken care of any belief I might have had regarding a triune godhead or the divinity of Jesus, peace be upon him.

(Polls regularly reveal that ministers are less likely to believe these and other dogmas of the church than are the laity they serve, with ministers more likely to understand such terms as "son of God" metaphorically, while their parishioners understand it literally.) I thus became a "Christmas and Easter Christian", attending church very sporadically, and then gritting my teeth and biting my tongue as I listened to sermons espousing that which I knew was not the case.

http://www.islamnewsroom.com/content/view/16/28/

[alphaman]

There is some irony in the fact that the supposedly best, brightest, and most idealistic of ministers-to-be are selected for the very best of seminary education, e.g. that offered at that time at the Harvard Divinity School. The irony is that, given such an education, the seminarian is exposed to as much of the actual historical truth as is known about: 1) the formation of the early, "mainstream" church, and how it was shaped by geopolitical considerations; 2) the "original" reading of various Biblical texts, many of which are in sharp contrast to what most Christians read when they pick up their Bible, although gradually some of this information is being incorporated into newer and better translations; 3) the evolution of such concepts as a triune godhead and the "sonship" of Jesus, peace be upon him; 4) the non-religious considerations that underlie many Christian creeds and doctrines; 5) the existence of those early churches and Christian movements which never accepted the concept of a triune godhead, and which never accepted the concept of the divinity of Jesus, peace be upon him; and 6) etc. (Some of these fruits of my seminary education are recounted in more detail in my recent book, The Cross and the Crescent: An Interfaith Dialogue between Christianity and Islam, Amana Publications, 2001.)

As such, it is no real wonder that almost a majority of such seminary graduates leave seminary, not to "fill pulpits", where they would be asked to preach that which they know is not true, but to enter the various counseling professions. Such was also the case for me, as I went on to earn a master's and doctorate in clinical psychology. I continued to call myself a Christian, because that was a needed bit of self-identity, and because I was, after all, an ordained minister, even though my full time job was as a mental health professional. However, my seminary education had taken care of any belief I might have had regarding a triune godhead or the divinity of Jesus, peace be upon him.

(Polls regularly reveal that ministers are less likely to believe these and other dogmas of the church than are the laity they serve, with ministers more likely to understand such terms as "son of God" metaphorically, while their parishioners understand it literally.) I thus became a "Christmas and Easter Christian", attending church very sporadically, and then gritting my teeth and biting my tongue as I listened to sermons espousing that which I knew was not the case.

http://www.islamnewsroom.com/content/view/16/28/

I haven't attended seminary, but I know enough to say that what is written above is totally untrue.

This isn't the first time I've said this, but I urge you to seek out reliable sources on these matters. It's frustrating to see these horrible, completely false claims being posted by someone who has heard the truth (or maybe you never read my posts because they don't say anything your mind wants you to hear).

The fact that you haven't sought out the truth -- and even more so -- that the person above writes things that he knows aren't true (if he really did attend Harvard Divinity School) proves that people can be brainwashed into believing anything.

I can honestly say that I sought out the historical truth of the Christian faith from ALL sides before I put my faith in Christ. I started my journey by trying to disprove the claims of what I now know is the truth. I didn't want it to be the truth, I wanted the truth to be the poison that the enemy of God spews more now than ever before! And do you know what I found when I tried to prove the lie that you're believing by looking to RELIABLE SOURCES?

I found my Saviour.

[zOaib]

I haven't attended seminary, but I know enough to say that what is written above is totally untrue.

This isn't the first time I've said this, but I urge you to seek out reliable sources on these matters. It's frustrating to see these horrible, completely false claims being posted by someone who has heard the truth (or maybe you never read my posts because they don't say anything your mind wants you to hear).

The fact that you haven't sought out the truth -- and even more so -- that the person above writes things that he knows aren't true (if he really did attend Harvard Divinity School) proves that people can be brainwashed into believing anything.

I can honestly say that I sought out the historical truth of the Christian faith from ALL sides before I put my faith in Christ. I started my journey by trying to disprove the claims of what I now know is the truth. I didn't want it to be the truth, I wanted the truth to be the poison that the enemy of God spews more now than ever before! And do you know what I found when I tried to prove the lie that you're believing by looking to RELIABLE SOURCES?

I found my Saviour.

the person in question Yusuf Estes here is a link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yusuf_Estes to give u who he is , and when he converted to Islam ( the person who interviewed the minister , whose story u read above )

i have met Yusuf Estes many times , the first time i met him was when he came to the university of florida campus , by an invitation through the christian student association ....... where i heard hims peak , and it was more of a Q and A type of a seminar and alo in his own words why he accepted islam after being in a family of christian pioneers since colonial times , and by the time he was done in that room of 400+ , 5 people accepted islam that day , and ofcourse these were devout christians , but i guess who had a more open mind to seek the TRUTH . i have made this journey myself so i know where i am coming from , i appologise if u feel attacked by the above article , i have posted it for people who are seeking and have faith to explore without holding on to biases.

[zOaib]

here is the video of link at google video , its like 40 minutes but very interesting http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...&q=yusuf+estes

[alphaman]

i have posted it for people who are seeking and have faith to explore without holding on to biases.

See -- the bold above proves that you didn't read my post. It's frustrating to realize that I have spent quite a bit of time responding to your posts and you don't take the time to read mine.

[spywizard]

maybe he wants to convert as many muslims from the teachings of a false prophet, to the teachings of the messiah...

maybe he wants to learn 1st hand how to combat the teachings that have led soo many astray..

or

maybe he has been lead astray himself...

who knows..

[alphaman]

1) the formation of the early, "mainstream" church, and how it was shaped by geopolitical considerations;

Define early mainstream church. If we are speaking of the actual historical, biblical early church. This is completely incorrect. If he is referring to The Roman Catholic Church, he is not referring to it in a correct manner, as it is not an example of "the early church". Very vague. This statement alone would bring his education or knowledge into question.

2) the "original" reading of various Biblical texts, many of which are in sharp contrast to what most Christians read when they pick up their Bible, although gradually some of this information is being incorporated into newer and better translations;

This is total garbage. Not true at all. Period. Here is a quiz for you -- you tell me what the earliest Christian scripture is. And don't bring an islamic or otherwise unreliable source.

3) the evolution of such concepts as a triune godhead and the "sonship" of Jesus, peace be upon him;

Not true. The concept is in the scripture. The official doctrine is an articulation of what is already in the Bible. It is in no way an evolution it is supported by scripture -- period. Here is a very good explanation of that.

http://www.equip.org/free/DT160.htm

4) the non-religious considerations that underlie many Christian creeds and doctrines;

Here is another vague and strange statement. Who knows what he is referring to.

5) the existence of those early churches and Christian movements which never accepted the concept of a triune godhead, and which never accepted the concept of the divinity of Jesus, peace be upon him;

Uh... There was only one such "movement" in early times. It was headed by a man named Arius. This is called Arian theology. It was put to a vote at the first council at nicaea. There were between 250 and 318 overseers there, and all but 2 voted against Arius.





My point was that these statements are either vague and unable to be pinpointed, or just false. Whoever wrote these statements is either very ignorant of actual Christian doctrine and early church history, or they are lying. Neither would surprise me.

[alphaman]

maybe he wants to convert as many muslims from the teachings of a false prophet, to the teachings of the messiah...

maybe he wants to learn 1st hand how to combat the teachings that have led soo many astray..

or

maybe he has been lead astray himself...

who knows..

Who is "he"?

[zOaib]

i did read your bold letters , but u really did not get me did u , i have not posted for an argument , i have posted for people to explore themselves my claims , the video link i posted should help too.

as for spywizard , may Allah Forgive U !

[zOaib]

but for some answers , here is some of his Q & A ............ and u can got o the link , and write to him if u disagree , He used to be a christian preacher so he definately knows more then me .

Q -I think you must be from a Catholic system and that's why Islam convinced you more but Jesus is the truth, the way and the life.

Answer:

No. Sorry, but actually, you are wrong on this point. My family for generations have all been in nondenominational Christianity, simply called "Christian Church" until the 1950s when there was a split and one branch became known as the "Disciples of Christ."

You might be interested to know that all of the Protestant churches today have their origins in the Catholic Church. However, the Catholic Church actually was in business prior to the birth of Jesus, peace be upon him. It was the old Roman Church originating out of the concepts of Alexander the Great. It was totally pagan in its origins. And the first time it came in contact with the early Church Fathers, at the Nicaea Council, (325 AD) it swallowed up their books, and teachers and totally revamped the whole religion. That was the time when the day for celebrating Jesus birthday was CHANGED to December the 25. Also, the addition of the rites of the Feast of Ishtar (now called Easter) were established. The day of worship was CHANGED from Saturday (Sabbath) to Sunday to accommodate the Emperor's worship of his religion. He was a cult worshipper in "Sol Invictus" (Invincible Sun). He was a sun worshipper and believed that he was the son of the sun, literally.

Another interesting note is that fact that the books that were offer at the Nicaea Council by the original Christians totaled in number exceeding 200. Yet they only selected a few. The Catholics held onto a total of 73 books from the Old and New Testament. Later (early 1500s) the Protestant Reformation reduced the number to only 66. Keeping 39 books of the Old Jewish Testament and 27 books for what they called the New Testament. The Coptic claim they have the more accurate version being the one based on Saint Mark's Testament.

It is also interesting to note that Catholic was not the only church out there at that time. The Copts (Egypt), and the Greek Orthodox and the Eastern Orthodox were already in place. Christianity had already reached the British Isles before the Nicaea Council so they already had the foundation for the Anglican Church. Christianity had made some influence into the superstitions of the Germanic parts of Europe and the affects of their nature worship began to affect the beliefs of the Christians in those areas. This is evidenced by the results arising out of the Catholic movement in that area in later dates.

As for me personally, I did visit a number of churches in the Protestant denominations. However, I have never attended a single mass or any Catholic form of worship. I have been to a Catholic wedding but I felt that it was too much for me in many ways.

http://www.islamnewsroom.com/content/view/148/27/

[alphaman]

i did read your bold letters , but u really did not get me did u , i have not posted for an argument , i have posted for people to explore themselves my claims , the video link i posted should help too.

as for spywizard , may Allah Forgive U !

When I said "the bold above", I meant that I bolded some of your quote directly above that post. I meant that you didn't actually read my post, and that what you said in that bolded statement proves it.

You may not have wanted an argument, but when you post nonsense that may lead uninformed Christians astray, or poison the minds of people who are on the fence -- you better expect one.

I will respond to the Q&A post in a while. I'm going to my church picnic. But as a prelude -- the things that he says about the church in that post are the basis of what I set out to prove in the beginning of my spiritual journey. I could find that stuff in a million places on line, but they were all unreliable biased sources. When I looked to reliable sources -- I found that it was all a lie. I will respond in detail in a while.

[alphaman]

Q -I think you must be from a Catholic system and that's why Islam convinced you more but Jesus is the truth, the way and the life.

Answer:

No. Sorry, but actually, you are wrong on this point. My family for generations have all been in nondenominational Christianity, simply called "Christian Church" until the 1950s when there was a split and one branch became known as the "Disciples of Christ."

You might be interested to know that all of the Protestant churches today have their origins in the Catholic Church.

That is true of the protestant churches. But if he was really a part of non-denominational churches he would know that 99% of contemporary non-denominational churches are basically Baptist. Baptists were around before the reformation and they are not really "reformers" or protestants. So this makes no sense. My guess is that he was basically Christian just as you were. Born into a family that attended a Christian church but never really understood any of it.

However, the Catholic Church actually was in business prior to the birth of Jesus, peace be upon him. It was the old Roman Church originating out of the concepts of Alexander the Great. It was totally pagan in its origins. And the first time it came in contact with the early Church Fathers, at the Nicaea Council, (325 AD) it swallowed up their books, and teachers and totally revamped the whole religion.

Wrong. Look below.

That was the time when the day for celebrating Jesus birthday was CHANGED to December the 25.

Wrong. That was not decided at the 1st council at Nicaea. It was not on the agenda. Look it up.

Also, the addition of the rites of the Feast of Ishtar (now called Easter) were established.

Now, the date of Easter was decided at the first council at Nicaea, but the connection with Ishtar is garbage. Here is what wikipedia has to say about that.

At best, any connection between Ishtar and Easter is geographically and linguistically distant, and tangential.

Claiming a connection between Ishtar and Easter also ignores the fact that Easter is called "Passover" in almost every other language in the world. (The only exceptions appear to be the languages of those people who first learned Christianity at the hands of English or other Anglophone missionaries.) Examples of this are the Hebrew Pesach; the Greek Paskha; the Latin Pascha; the Italian Pasqua; the Spanish La Pascua; and Scots Gaelic An Casca. The holiday was not called "Easter" until the 8th Century, by which time it had already been in existence for 700 years.
There is the additional problem that the very lands where Ishtar was once known have never been known to use a name like "Easter" for this or any other spring holiday.

The day of worship was CHANGED from Saturday (Sabbath) to Sunday to accommodate the Emperor's worship of his religion.

Wrong. This was not addressed at the Council at Nicaea either. Sunday worship is in the Bible.

Acts 20:7
Eutychus Raised From the Dead at Troas
7On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight.

Also:

Colossians 2:16
16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

He was a cult worshipper in "Sol Invictus" (Invincible Sun). He was a sun worshipper and believed that he was the son of the sun, literally.

This is referring to Constantine which is irrelavent, but he converted to Christianity. All evidence points to this fact. Anything else is pure speculation.

Another interesting note is that fact that the books that were offer at the Nicaea Council by the original Christians totaled in number exceeding 200. Yet they only selected a few. The Catholics held onto a total of 73 books from the Old and New Testament. Later (early 1500s) the Protestant Reformation reduced the number to only 66. Keeping 39 books of the Old Jewish Testament and 27 books for what they called the New Testament.

The development of the official canon did not occur and was not addressed at the council at Nicaea either. That wasn't until the council of Hippo some 40 years later. And the fact is that there were 66 books in the original canon which was agreed upon in 367 AD at Hippo. The Roman Catholic Church confirmed the apocrypha (7 extra books) at the Council of Trent in 1563 in response to the reformation. 1200 years later.

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But the point is this -- this guy has it alllllll wrong. The first sign of someone who is trying to disprove by dissecting history and has no idea what they are talking about is that they always go to the First Council at Nicaea. They always try to put a bunch of crap in there that never happened there. This guy probably just read The DaVinci Code.




This is all that was on the agenda for the First Council of Nicaea 325 AD:

1.The Arian heresy
2.The celebration of Passover
3.The Meletian schism
4.The Father and Son one in purpose or in person
5.The baptism of heretics
6.The status of the lapsed in the persecution under Licinius



.

[alphaman]

ZOAIB

Please read the post above in it's entirety and respond.

[zOaib]

1. Then why was december 25th chosen for Jesus B-day , when we all know its not the 25th december. found here .... http://www.new-life.net/chrtms10.htm

looking at that evidence and from this site in favor of the 25th december argument. http://www.gotquestions.org/December-25.html

it clearly shows the catholic church incorporated 25th december to replace the pagan holiday celebrated that time of the year .

so whether the council agreed aupon this at 1st niciea or later makes no difference.

2. i can agree on the easter part , cause different languages were spoken at that time and i can see how people wanted to relate by using familira names of events.

3. Constantine changed the sabbath to sunday , without the consent of the papacy , which is proved here http://www.gotquestions.org/Constantine-Sabbath.html

4. Constantine and him being a christian is very debatable , and this link again proves he converted to christianity on political basis , http://www.gotquestions.org/council-of-Nicea.html

5. the relevance of how many books of the bible are there or are not there doesnt really matter , because even though all christians believe in Christ as God , but they cannot agree on ONE ' Constant Version of the Bible .



so all of your argument is debatable , there is no one line of way u can address these issues cause they just dont go along well with many different accounts recorded through history. that usually happens when the word of God is transliterated through many languages and loosing the original completely .............. but u have your faith and that is good , it gives u morality which is better than not having it at all ..............

[zOaib]

The Conversion Story of Yusuf Estes, US Federal Prison Chaplain
The amazing tale of how an American former "born again" Christian and his father, both ordained ministers, plus their friend, a Catholic priest, all became convinced of the truth of Islam.

Islam Luring More Latinos

The steadily increasing number of Latino Muslims illustrates how deeply rooted Islam has become in the America landscape - even spreading to communities not normally associated with the faith, religious scholars say.
By Chris L. Jenkins, Washington Post, January 7, 2001

http://www.islamfortoday.com/americanlatinos2.htm ( both mentioned in the same site , also note Yusuf estes was a US federal Prision Chaplain , so u discrediting his knowledge is opinionated , since it goes against your beliefs )


there are soo many priests and preachers converting to islam in the U.S.A ( just google it), every day , i had another guy 57 yrs old take the Islamic testimony last night at mosque , and he had been a minister for over 30 yrs , if u want i can post over 150 conversions in the past 3 months in the U.S.A if u like that i am well aware off .............. the point is , WHY these people all of a suden wanna be Muslim , in a society where ISLAM is spat on , either they r crazy or they r right.

my stance is to present the truth , i am not obligated to enforce it to anyone , God chooses to guide whom he wills.

that is the reason after 9/11 within 6 months of the event 34000 conversion happened in USA alone , and so i ask , was it the tip fo the sword that scared them or was it the truth.

[Phreak101]

The very idea that you both are debating nitpicky details about the same idea goes to show the fallacy of organized religion...

God, Allah, Yaweh, etc...all the same elephant being described by different people. Why bicker aboutt he size of his ears or the color of his skin? It's all about what is being said, not when, who, and why it was said.

[singern]

The very idea that you both are debating nitpicky details about the same idea goes to show the fallacy of organized religion...

God, Allah, Yaweh, etc...all the same elephant being described by different people. Why bicker aboutt he size of his ears or the color of his skin? It's all about what is being said, not when, who, and why it was said.

Well spoken.
Organized religion in itself is a recipe for conflict. If only one religion
is true, then all other religions must be false.

So who will stand up and admit there faith is misguided and false? will it be the Buddhists, Muslims, Christians, or Jews?
Religion, The very inspiration of peace, love, forgiveness, and tolerance has become the source of almost every major conflict in mans history.

[zOaib]

I Agree with u guys , i really dont like nitpicking , anyways , ill stop right here ..............

[Kärnfysikern]

closed on zoabis request