Nearly Complete 'Missing Link' Skeleton Found in Ethiopia

**Logan13** · 10-22-2006, 07:50 PM

Associated Press
Nearly Complete 'Missing Link' Skeleton Found in Ethiopia
NEW YORK — In a discovery sure to fuel an old debate about our evolutionary history, scientists have found a remarkably complete skeleton of a 3-year-old female from the ape-man species represented by "Lucy."

The remains found in Africa are 3.3 million years old, making this the oldest known skeleton of such a youthful human ancestor.

"It's a pretty unbelievable discovery... It's sensational," said Will Harcourt-Smith, a researcher at the American Museum of Natural History in New York who wasn't involved in the find. "It provides you with a wealth of information."

For one thing, it gives new evidence for a contentious feud about whether this species, which walked upright, also climbed and moved through trees easily.

The species is Australopithecus afarensis, which lived in Africa between about 4 million and 3 million years ago. The most famous afarensis is Lucy, discovered in Ethiopia in 1974, a creature that lived about 100,000 years after the newfound specimen.

The new find is reported in Thursday's issue of the journal Nature by Zeresenay Alemseged of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Leipzig, Germany; Fred Spoor, professor of evolutionary anatomy at University College London, and others.

The skeleton was discovered in 2000 in northeastern Ethiopia. Scientists have spent five painstaking years removing the bones from sandstone, and the job will take years more to complete.

Judging by how well it was preserved, the skeleton may have come from a body that was quickly buried by sediment in a flood, the researchers said.

"It's a once-in-a-lifetime find," said Spoor.

The skeleton has been nicknamed "Selam," which means "peace" in several Ethiopian languages.

Most scientists believe afarensis stood upright and walked on two feet, but they argue about whether it had ape-like agility in trees.

That climbing ability would require anatomical equipment like long arms, and afarensis had arms that dangled down to just above the knees.

The question is whether such features indicate climbing ability or just evolutionary baggage. The loss of that ability would suggest crossing a threshold toward a more human existence.

Spoor said so far, analysis of the new fossil hasn't settled the argument but does seem to indicate some climbing ability.

While the lower body is very human-like, he said, the upper body is ape-like:

— The shoulder blades resemble those of a gorilla rather than a modern human.

— The neck seems short and thick like a great ape's, rather than the more slender version humans have to keep the head stable while running.

— The organ of balance in the inner ear is more ape-like than human.

— The fingers are very curved, which could indicate climbing ability, "but I'm cautious about that," Spoor said.

Curved fingers have been noted for afarensis before, but their significance is in dispute.

A big question is what the foot bones will show when their sandstone casing is removed, he said. Will there be a grasping big toe like the opposable thumb of a human hand? Such a chimp-like feature would argue for climbing ability, he said.

Yet, to resolve the debate, scientists may have to find a way to inspect vanishingly small details of such old bones, to get clues to how those bones were used in life, he said.

Bernard Wood of George Washington University, who didn't participate in the discovery, said in an interview that the fossil provides strong evidence of climbing ability.

But he also agreed that it won't settle the debate among scientists, which he said "makes the Middle East look like a picnic."

Overall, he wrote in a Nature commentary, the discovery provides "a veritable mine of information about a crucial stage in human evolutionary history."

The fossil revealed just the second hyoid bone to be recovered from any human ancestor. This tiny bone, which attaches to the tongue muscles, is very chimp-like in the new specimen, Spoor said.

While that doesn't directly reveal anything about language, it does suggest that whatever sounds the creature made "would appeal more to a chimpanzee mother than a human mother," Spoor said.

The fossil find includes the complete skull, including an impression of the brain and the lower jaw, all the vertebrae from the neck to just below the torso, all the ribs, both shoulder blades and both collarbones, the right elbow and part of a hand, both knees and much of both shin and thigh bones.

One foot is almost complete, providing the first time scientists have found an afarensis foot with the bones still positioned as they were in life, Spoor said.

The work was funded by the National Geographic Society, the Institute of Human Origins at Arizona State University, the Leakey Foundation and the Planck institute.

**Superhuman** · 10-22-2006, 11:29 PM

wow this stuff is fascinating... i don't understand people who say it has to be either divine creation OR evolution... i believe God created the evolution of man!

**Kärnfysikern** · 10-23-2006, 09:06 AM

good stuff. For each new discovery ID just looks more stupid

**Superhuman** · 10-23-2006, 09:43 AM

Originally Posted by johan

good stuff. For each new discovery ID just looks more stupid

i disagree... I think Evolution IS an Intelligent Design

**scriptfactory** · 10-23-2006, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by Superhuman

i disagree... I think Evolution IS an Intelligent Design

For sure.

**givemethejuice** · 10-23-2006, 11:06 AM

Originally Posted by Superhuman

i disagree... I think Evolution IS an Intelligent Design

Agreed!

**Kärnfysikern** · 10-23-2006, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by Superhuman

i disagree... I think Evolution IS an Intelligent Design

But they are mutualy exclusive. Evolution is random and ID is by definition non random.
Unless you mean life was created and then allowed to evolve whatever way it wants to...

I dont think evolution excludes creation however

But it certainly seems to exclude the bibel creation story.

**biglouie250** · 10-23-2006, 11:48 AM

ID = religious propaganda. its like they gave up on creationism but wont fully accept the truth which is evolution. ID is not science by any means. My "religious" take on it.....we are god's science experiment and he let us evolve independent of any divine intervention.

**Superhuman** · 10-23-2006, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by johan

But they are mutualy exclusive. Evolution is random and ID is by definition non random.
Unless you mean life was created and then allowed to evolve whatever way it wants to...

I dont think evolution excludes creation however

But it certainly seems to exclude the bibel creation story.

how are they mutually exclusive?? Imagine God as the creator having complete control over everything and only stepping in when he wants to. He chooses to have organisms evolve over billions of years into human beings - thus leading to diversity among creatures (plants and animals) along the way to feed us and help us.

**Kärnfysikern** · 10-23-2006, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by Superhuman

how are they mutually exclusive?? Imagine God as the creator having complete control over everything and only stepping in when he wants to. He chooses to have organisms evolve over billions of years into human beings - thus leading to diversity among creatures (plants and animals) along the way to feed us and help us.

well you can also say that gravitation is good pushing things togheter, quantum mechanics is god waving probabilities and theory of relativity is god playing tricks on time and space.

If we assume there is a omnipotent god then all of the above is just as resonable. He could do anything and make it look like its totaly random.

Theory of evolution is based on adaption to more or less random circumstances and events. If it was designed by god then its not evolution anymore its design.

There is also the question offcourse, if it was design. Why malaria, aids, ebola, marburg, hanta, sars, chicken pox, black plauge....

If you add aditional hypothesis to a theory it is no longer the same theory and adding the idea of a god guiding evolution would mean the current (succesfull)theory of evolution is false.

My question is simply, why add a hypothesis that is not needed? If we dont need to invoke a god to explain something lets leave him out of it.

**Kärnfysikern** · 10-23-2006, 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by biglouie250

ID = religious propaganda. its like they gave up on creationism but wont fully accept the truth which is evolution. ID is not science by any means. My "religious" take on it.....we are god's science experiment and he let us evolve independent of any divine intervention.

Yupp thats what it looks like. Religion has always fought science and science always ends up winning

**Superhuman** · 10-23-2006, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by johan

well you can also say that gravitation is good pushing things togheter, quantum mechanics is god waving probabilities and theory of relativity is god playing tricks on time and space.

If we assume there is a omnipotent god then all of the above is just as resonable.

Theory of evolution is based on adaption to more or less random circumstances and events. If it was designed by god then its not evolution anymore its design.

There is also the question offcourse, if it was design. Why malaria, aids, ebola, marburg, hanta, sars, chicken pox, black plauge....

If you add aditional hypothesis to a theory it is no longer the same theory and adding the idea of a god guiding evolution would mean the current (succesfull)theory of evolution is false.

My question is simply, why add a hypothesis that is not needed? If we dont need to invoke a god to explain something lets leave him out of it.

I see your point, but I think it is important to show how ID and Evolution can work together because many Christian children (I believe something like 70% of Americans are Christian) go to church and read Genesis and learn about how God created the world... then they go to school and learn about the Big Bang and Evolution, seemingly cancelling out God. I think it should be taught in a way that allows for both.

**Superhuman** · 10-23-2006, 12:10 PM

oh, and I spoke of the 70% who are Christian, that doesn't count other religions such as Judaism and Islam - where they also believe in ID

**Kärnfysikern** · 10-23-2006, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by Superhuman

I see your point, but I think it is important to show how ID and Evolution can work together because many Christian children (I believe something like 70% of Americans are Christian) go to church and read Genesis and learn about how God created the world... then they go to school and learn about the Big Bang and Evolution, seemingly cancelling out God. I think it should be taught in a way that allows for both.

I dont se what the problem is with science seemingly canceling out god? If science disproves bibical(or any other holy book) claims then let the kids know that full and well so that they can look at the bible from a scientific point of view. To add speculation into science just to preserve faith is to bastardize science.

I dont se how religion could ever be taught as anything resembling fact, I dont even se any reason to present it in any manner except it beeing a belife system that is inherently unprovable and based on faith alone.

If I had a kid coming home and telling me that his science teacher told the class god might guide evolution I would imidietly demand that teacher is fired.

Religion in religion class, science in science class. Thats the way to keep everyone happy

**Kärnfysikern** · 10-23-2006, 12:41 PM

ohh just to add. I would equaly much demand that teacher beeing fired incase he proclaimed that the big bang model and evolution togheter rules out the possibility of a god.

**Phreak101** · 10-23-2006, 12:45 PM

Agnosticism is usually the intelligent approach when it comes to mixing science with religion...it's become my path anyway...

To claim we know ANYTHING about the mind of a God or it's plan is simply ludicrous..Knowing you know nothing is the key to knowing everything. I read that on a fortune cookie somewhere, sound advice!

**biglouie250** · 10-23-2006, 12:55 PM

dont you think though that ID is really just religions giving into pressure(and truth) without having to fully recognize evolution by claiming ID as the new truth? Religion is always stubborn to recognize scientific achievments, especially when it flies in the face of what they teach. To me i honestly think that they sat around and said "we cant give credit to evolution.....lets develop a quasi-evolutionary theory that will appease most evolution believers and not piss off our followers". They definitley "gave in" so to speak with the idea of ID.

**Kärnfysikern** · 10-23-2006, 01:08 PM

Originally Posted by biglouie250

dont you think though that ID is really just religions giving into pressure(and truth) without having to fully recognize evolution by claiming ID as the new truth? Religion is always stubborn to recognize scientific achievments, especially when it flies in the face of what they teach. To me i honestly think that they sat around and said "we cant give credit to evolution.....lets develop a quasi-evolutionary theory that will appease most evolution believers and not piss off our followers". They definitley "gave in" so to speak with the idea of ID.

Intelligent design is just a bunch of bullshit trying to pass itself of as scientific. But it fails the most important part, it is not falsifiable. Any theory not falsifiable is not science. Plain and simple.

**Kärnfysikern** · 10-23-2006, 01:14 PM

Originally Posted by Phreak101

Agnosticism is usually the intelligent approach when it comes to mixing science with religion...it's become my path anyway...

To claim we know ANYTHING about the mind of a God or it's plan is simply ludicrous..Knowing you know nothing is the key to knowing everything. I read that on a fortune cookie somewhere, sound advice!

I take the much less humble approach

We humans know ALOT. We know the bigger details of how the universe has evolved from the first few picoseconds until today 13 billion years later. We have tamed the most powerfull force of nature, the nuclear force. We have managed to transport our own monkey selfs to the moon, we know exactly how particles behave down to insanely small scales and we know with tremendous precision how huge chunks of masses interact. Faced with every new challange our combined intellects have prevailed and conquered

But there will always be a place for possible gods. Because what it all comes down to is that sooner or later science has to rest on assumptions that can not be proven and science can not explain why those assumptions are right. So there is plenty of room there for religion to explore without them having to try to impose themself on the area where science rules supreme.

**biglouie250** · 10-23-2006, 01:31 PM

Originally Posted by johan

Intelligent design is just a bunch of bullshit trying to pass itself of as scientific. But it fails the most important part, it is not falsifiable. Any theory not falsifiable is not science. Plain and simple.

right. its an approach tho that they can say "hey its not religion so you should teach it in schools" its a way of teaching religion by circumventing the laws.

**Kärnfysikern** · 10-23-2006, 01:33 PM

Originally Posted by biglouie250

right. its an approach tho that they can say "hey its not religion so you should teach it in schools" its a way of teaching religion by circumventing the laws.

it would take some mighty stupid or crocked politicians to fall for that though.

Im glad that discussion hardly even exists in sweden or europe for that matter.

**Superhuman** · 10-23-2006, 01:35 PM

man, we need to stop wasting money on war and start devloping new technology to explore space... then maybe we would find aliens who created us like in the movie Mission to Mars

**biglouie250** · 10-23-2006, 01:46 PM

Originally Posted by johan

it would take some mighty stupid or crocked politicians to fall for that though.

Im glad that discussion hardly even exists in sweden or europe for that matter.

well leave it to stupid american politicians! that was a huge issue in pennsylvania last year. and more recently...... you know that "god hates fags" lady....thats why she wanted to protest the kids funeral who were murdered in that amish community. she said they turned their back on god by not teaching ID(among other rants she had about why those kids "deserved" to die)

**Kärnfysikern** · 10-23-2006, 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by Superhuman

man, we need to stop wasting money on war and start devloping new technology to explore space... then maybe we would find aliens who created us like in the movie Mission to Mars

Amen

I want to be able to buy a ticket to mars before Im 60 atleast

**Superhuman** · 10-23-2006, 01:56 PM

Originally Posted by johan

Amen

I want to be able to buy a ticket to mars before Im 60 atleast

there is really no reason we shouldn't have the USS Enterprise up there exploring the universe... it's not like we don't have the resources, the technology, and the the people willing to go! I think everybody's priorities are skewed... Money truly is the route of all evil.

**Kärnfysikern** · 10-23-2006, 02:02 PM

Originally Posted by Superhuman

there is really no reason we shouldn't have the USS Enterprise up there exploring the universe... it's not like we don't have the resources, the technology, and the the people willing to go! I think everybody's priorities are skewed... Money truly is the route of all evil.

Its the apathy of the avarage joe that is the reason. Go around and ask people what they feel about space exploration and they will just stare blankly at you and ask what the point is and why waste the money....