Wal-Mart 'dyke' book

[alphaman]

While it would be nice to think that the Old Testament is completely obselete and that we can sin as much as we want and still receive the grace of God. But the sticking point is that when we put our faith in God, we do not continue in sin. Not to say that we will never sin, but that we will not continue to mindlessly live a life of sin -- we will be unable to.

2Timothy 3:16
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,


1 John 3:5-11
5But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

7Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. 9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

Love one another
11This is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another.

[Tock]

jlWhile through God's grace, some OT laws do not apply anymore,

So who gets to decide which laws apply and which ones don't? Not everyone agrees on these rules . . . For instance, some Christians say it's ok to be gay, others say it's not recommended, and others say it's the vilest, worst, most horrible thing anyone could possibly do.

And then, some Christians say that if you were saved once, then you're always saved, no matter what. Others will tell you that only 144,000 people are gonna make it into Heaven, and everyone else is going to Hell.

Seems to me that all those different groups are correct on one thing -- that all the others don't know what they're talking about.

this does not wipe out the law completely. In fact, under the New Covenant the law of God

What the Bible says is irrelevant, because (1) it is interpreted thousands of different ways by honest people; and I cannot beleive that a Just God would condemn the vast majority of people who ever lived for misinterpreting this silly book--after all, it's full of absurdities, impossibilities, wretched examples of morality, and sheer stupidity. If there is a god, it would be a grave insult to say that It had anything to do with this book.

written on our hearts when we put our faith in Him.

Vagueness isn't a virtue; I prefer plain language.
The only way to "write anything on our hearts" is to have a surgeon tattoo something on it. That is clear.

What exactly do you mean when you say, something is "written on our hearts when we put our faith in Him?"

Be clear, if you can . . .

Well,

[alphaman]

Vagueness isn't a virtue; I prefer plain language.
The only way to "write anything on our hearts" is to have a surgeon tattoo something on it. That is clear.

What exactly do you mean when you say, something is "written on our hearts when we put our faith in Him?"

Be clear, if you can . . .

Well,

This is the last post from page 1 of this thread:

While through God's grace, some OT laws do not apply anymore, this does not wipe out the law completely. In fact, under the New Covenant the law of God is written on our hearts when we put our faith in Him.

Hebrews 8:7-11
7For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8But God found fault with the people and said[b]:
"The time is coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.
9It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them, declares the Lord.
10This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."[c

[Tock]

Oh, no . . . you don't get to pass this one by me . . .

2Timothy 3:16
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

Look at this with a bit of common sense . . .
Somebody had to write this verse on paper. Well, this verse says "All Scripture is God-Breathed." Does that automatically mean that this verse is God-Breathed as well?
If your answer is yes, then by what authority, for what reason, is this verse God-Breathed?
If your answer is no, then there is nothing in the Bible that says that Scripture is worth a flip.

Another point to ponder . . . since the writer of this verse was not aware of the other canon of New Testament writings, then the writer was, of course, referring to the Old Testament, the Torah. That again leaves the New Testament without any sort of verification that it is of any significance.

----------

Everything I have written is true, because, "Everything Tock writes is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness."
--Tock

[alphaman]

So who gets to decide which laws apply and which ones don't? Not everyone agrees on these rules . . . For instance, some Christians say it's ok to be gay, others say it's not recommended, and others say it's the vilest, worst, most horrible thing anyone could possibly do.

I'm pretty sure God decides.

1Corinthians 6:9-10
9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

What the Bible says is irrelevant, because (1) it is interpreted thousands of different ways by honest people; and I cannot beleive that a Just God would condemn the vast majority of people who ever lived for misinterpreting this silly book--after all, it's full of absurdities, impossibilities, wretched examples of morality, and sheer stupidity. If there is a god, it would be a grave insult to say that It had anything to do with this book.

So you wanna try and bulild a case on homosexuality being ok under the new covenant and when it doesn't work out for you -- you say the Bible is irrealevant? That doesn't make sense.

[Tock]

This is the last post from page 1 of this thread:

While through God's grace, some OT laws do not apply anymore, this does not wipe out the law completely. In fact, under the New Covenant the law of God is written on our hearts when we put our faith in Him.

Nope, that's not an answer.

What, exactly, do you mean when something is "written on our hearts?"
Let's get away from all this religious mumbo-jumbo . . .

[alphaman]

Nope, that's not an answer.

What, exactly, do you mean when something is "written on our hearts?"
Let's get away from all this religious mumbo-jumbo . . .

It could probably be best likened to having a 'conscience' for a secularist such as yourself.

[alphaman]

Oh, no . . . you don't get to pass this one by me . . .

2Timothy 3:16
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

Look at this with a bit of common sense . . .
Somebody had to write this verse on paper. Well, this verse says "All Scripture is God-Breathed." Does that automatically mean that this verse is God-Breathed as well?
If your answer is yes, then by what authority, for what reason, is this verse God-Breathed?
If your answer is no, then there is nothing in the Bible that says that Scripture is worth a flip.

Another point to ponder . . . since the writer of this verse was not aware of the other canon of New Testament writings, then the writer was, of course, referring to the Old Testament, the Torah. That again leaves the New Testament without any sort of verification that it is of any significance.

----------

Everything I have written is true, because, "Everything Tock writes is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness."
--Tock

You should know what the qualificaitons for entry into the canon (which is revelation from God) if you were going to be a preacher!

1. Apostolic Authority
2. Testimony of Authentic Authorship
3. Consitency with the rest of Holy Scripture

[Tock]

So you wanna try and bulild a case on homosexuality being ok under the new covenant and when it doesn't work out for you -- you say the Bible is irrealevant? That doesn't make sense.

Well, then, let's just say the Bible is irrelevant, and doesn't make sense.

Noah's Ark had no more than 2 acres of floor area, and yet it held 7 of every animal species (thousands of animals--imagine an entire zoo crammed into 2 acres), plus enough food and water for 14 months. And after the flood, kangaroos (and lots of other species native to Australia) swam across the ocean from Asia to Australia, leaving no other kangaroos along the way. Does that make sense to you?

Over half the population of Egypt (Exodus chapter 1) left the country, with immense riches, while decimating the Egyptian army, and yet the only record of this ever happening is in the Hebrew scriptures? Archeologists have found all sorts of detailed information from that time period, but no mention of this event has ever turned up anywhere else. And we are supposed to beleive that such a thing happened? Does that make sense to you?

No one knows who wrote the first 5 books of the Bible. And yet, we are supposed to beleive that it is true. The fellow who wrote Genesis wrote of events that happened over 500 years after the Genesis time period. Are we supposed to beleive that the people who wrote about Adam, Abraham, and Moses, lived at the time of Moses, or are we supposed to beleive that the writers lived 500 years later?
This is pretty screwed up . . .

The Bible writes of talking animals . . . Does that make sense to you?


Nope, a book like this, IMHO, does NOT make sense, and thus, is irrelevant.
It does have some charming traditions, and if you take parts of what it says metaphorically, has some value. But to take it as 100% "God-Breathed" just because one blanking verse in it says the entire thing is "God-Breathed," well, that does NOT make sense to me.

[Joey2ness]

Lesbians are at higher risk for STDs and other health problems than heterosexuals.

Who told you this? Please provide a reference.

http://www.catholiceducation.org/art...ty/ho0075.html

The Health Risks of Gay Sex
JOHN R. DIGGS, JR. M.D.

Promiscuity among lesbians is less extreme, but it is still higher than among heterosexual women. Overall, women tend to have fewer sex partners than men(with men). But there is a surprising finding about lesbian promiscuity in the literature. Australian investigators reported that lesbian women were 4.5 times more likely to have had more than 50 lifetime male partners than heterosexual women (9 percent of lesbians versus 2 percent of heterosexual women); and 93 percent of women who identified themselves as lesbian reported a history of sex with men.17 Other studies similarly show that 75-90 percent of women who have sex with women have also had sex with men.

[Tock]

Originally Posted by Tock
Nope, that's not an answer.

What, exactly, do you mean when something is "written on our hearts?"
Let's get away from all this religious mumbo-jumbo . . .

It could probably be best likened to having a 'conscience' for a secularist such as yourself.

Well, then, if, as you wrote, "under the New Covenant the law of God is written on our hearts when we put our faith in Him," then what accounts for all these people who say they're Christians, but they go out and commit crimes, and do other people dirty?

Y'know, the vast majority of people in jail say they are Christian . . . And I have no doubt that they are. I've seen plenty of Christians who drive like the devil, too. I would say, therefore, that their having faith in Jesus did not affect their conscience. I would imagine that if we were to examine the outer lining of their heart muscle, there would be no tattoos, either.

So, I doubt that your definition/explanation holds . . .

[alphaman]

Well, then, let's just say the Bible is irrelevant, and doesn't make sense.

Noah's Ark had no more than 2 acres of floor area, and yet it held 7 of every animal species (thousands of animals--imagine an entire zoo crammed into 2 acres), plus enough food and water for 14 months. And after the flood, kangaroos (and lots of other species native to Australia) swam across the ocean from Asia to Australia, leaving no other kangaroos along the way. Does that make sense to you?

Over half the population of Egypt (Exodus chapter 1) left the country, with immense riches, while decimating the Egyptian army, and yet the only record of this ever happening is in the Hebrew scriptures? Archeologists have found all sorts of detailed information from that time period, but no mention of this event has ever turned up anywhere else. And we are supposed to beleive that such a thing happened? Does that make sense to you?

The Bible has been confirmed by archaeology in an overwhelming amount of instances. Look it up.

No one knows who wrote the first 5 books of the Bible. And yet, we are supposed to beleive that it is true. The fellow who wrote Genesis wrote of events that happened over 500 years after the Genesis time period. Are we supposed to beleive that the people who wrote about Adam, Abraham, and Moses, lived at the time of Moses, or are we supposed to beleive that the writers lived 500 years later?
This is pretty screwed up . . .

Moses is believed to have written the first five books.

The Bible writes of talking animals . . . Does that make sense to you?

So if there's a God, then why is it so hard to believe that he could make animals talk, or the story of Noah's ark. What's much more difficult to believe is that complex living organisms that cover the earth popped into existence by chance.

Nope, a book like this, IMHO, does NOT make sense, and thus, is irrelevant.
It does have some charming traditions, and if you take parts of what it says metaphorically, has some value. But to take it as 100% "God-Breathed" just because one blanking verse in it says the entire thing is "God-Breathed," well, that does NOT make sense to me.

That would be convenient for you, but you know what? I don't believe you're so sure. If you were, I don't think you would spend so much time posting every little thing you can to try and undermine the faith. If it wasn't a big deal to you, you would be able to let it go.

[Tock]

You should know what the qualificaitons for entry into the canon (which is revelation from God) if you were going to be a preacher!

1. Apostolic Authority
2. Testimony of Authentic Authorship
3. Consitency with the rest of Holy Scripture

Ya, that's what the official, orthodox line is.

But if you look at the grisly details, the actual history of how the Bible got written and who decided what books were good and which were bogus, and why, well, you'll discover that the official line about authentic authorship isn't all what it's cracked up to be.

The vast majority of theologians who study the antiquity of Bible writings don't beleive that the Bible is "God-Breathed." They either take it as a body of ethnic writings, rich in metaphors, and not much more. These are the experts. Of course, you'll find some fundamentalist theologians who will swear that this book is "God-Breathed," but they're in the minority. And a small minority it is.

[alphaman]

Well, then, if, as you wrote, "under the New Covenant the law of God is written on our hearts when we put our faith in Him," then what accounts for all these people who say they're Christians, but they go out and commit crimes, and do other people dirty?

Y'know, the vast majority of people in jail say they are Christian . . . And I have no doubt that they are. I've seen plenty of Christians who drive like the devil, too. I would say, therefore, that their having faith in Jesus did not affect their conscience. I would imagine that if we were to examine the outer lining of their heart muscle, there would be no tattoos, either.

So, I doubt that your definition/explanation holds . . .

Well, this is getting a little ridiculous. We've been through this enough for you to realize that not everyone who claims to be a Christian is.........

I mean 5 posts ago, you were trying to give me a Gospel presentation for gays!

[alphaman]

Ya, that's what the official, orthodox line is.

But if you look at the grisly details, the actual history of how the Bible got written and who decided what books were good and which were bogus, and why, well, you'll discover that the official line about authentic authorship isn't all what it's cracked up to be.

The vast majority of theologians who study the antiquity of Bible writings don't beleive that the Bible is "God-Breathed." They either take it as a body of ethnic writings, rich in metaphors, and not much more. These are the experts. Of course, you'll find some fundamentalist theologians who will swear that this book is "God-Breathed," but they're in the minority. And a small minority it is.

This post is filled with conspiracy and liberal garbage that is completely untrue. Back up your claims with reliable sources.

[Tock]

The Bible has been confirmed by archaeology in an overwhelming amount of instances. Look it up.

Not really.
There is ZERO archeological verification for the Exodus story. None, Nada, Zip, Nothing, -----, 0000000.

Disagree? Find me something.
You'd think that something as significant as the total destruction of Egypt's army would have been noticed by someone back then. It certainly would have been noticed by neighboring empires, who would have certainly swooped down on Egypt for an easy picking.

Moses is believed to have written the first five books.

Not by anyone with a lick of sense.

If Moses had written Genesis 36:31: And these are the kings that reigned in the land of Edom, before there reigned any king over the children of Israel., and if Moses dropped out of sight after just before the Hebrews went into the promised land, then how could he have known about "kings that reigned over the children of Israel?"

Nope, whoever wrote the book of Genesis was around after the time of Solomon, the 2nd king of Israel. Was Moses around then? I don't think so.

So if there's a God, then why is it so hard to believe that he could make animals talk, or the story of Noah's ark.

Because this sort of thing only happens in fiction!!!

Duh!!

What's much more difficult to believe is that complex living organisms that cover the earth popped into existence by chance.

I don't know squat about evolution, but, I have heard Richard Dawkins (an expert on evolution) say http://www.planetvids.com/html/Richa...d-Haggard.html that scientists don't assert that organisms popped into existance by chance. Maybe you know of one or two, but from what I understand, the majority of scientists don't make that claim. Evolutionary processes have been verified in labs with animals that reproduce quickly. And pretty much, the only folks who doubt evolutionary theory are fundamentalists who fear that it contradicts their faith.

That would be convenient for you, but you know what? I don't believe you're so sure. If you were, I don't think you would spend so much time posting every little thing you can to try and undermine the faith. If it wasn't a big deal to you, you would be able to let it go.

No, I pursue this because it's kinda fun for me. And I don't really have much else to do . . .
And it is kinda fun to pop the pumped-up blatherings of fundamentalist bullies who try to frighten people into conversion by scaring them with fictions of eternal damnation . . .

Ya, it's all just fiction . . .

[Tock]

Originally Posted by Tock
Ya, that's what the official, orthodox line is.

But if you look at the grisly details, the actual history of how the Bible got written and who decided what books were good and which were bogus, and why, well, you'll discover that the official line about authentic authorship isn't all what it's cracked up to be.

The vast majority of theologians who study the antiquity of Bible writings don't beleive that the Bible is "God-Breathed." They either take it as a body of ethnic writings, rich in metaphors, and not much more. These are the experts. Of course, you'll find some fundamentalist theologians who will swear that this book is "God-Breathed," but they're in the minority. And a small minority it is.

This post is filled with conspiracy and liberal garbage that is completely untrue. Back up your claims with reliable sources.

I'll tell you what -- you quoted Timothy 3:16, claiming that all scripture is "God-Breathed." You made this declaration about YOUR book, you prove your point first.

[Tock]

Well, this is getting a little ridiculous. We've been through this enough for you to realize that not everyone who claims to be a Christian is.........

Ya, but you'd think that folks like Ted Haggard, the head of the National Evangelical Association (25 million members) and pastor of a 14,000 member church, would be a Christian. And look at him -- he's been preaching against homosexuality while paying a gay prostitute for years! What's up with that? I wouldn't say that anything had been "written on his heart" or put into his conscience.

He's just one interesting example. I'm sure there are plenty more . . .
Like all the folks in the KKK (and other right-wing bigots) over the years who claimed to be Christian, yet lynched plenty of blacks, Jews, gays, etc, and said it was the right thing to do. Another interesting example, ya?

I suppose another easy example would be all the Christians in colonial America who falsely accused people of being witches, and got 20 innocent people killed. And the Christians in colonial Massachusetts who banned Christmas because it was a catholic holiday, and they didn't want catholics in their midst.
Or all the Christians who tortured and burned heretics in Europe.
Or the idiots who try to change the sexual orientation of gays and lesbians with "reparative therapy," a practice condemned by the American Psychological Association and the American Psychiatric Association.

I'm sure I missed quite a few others, of mean-spirited Christians who do terrible things -- each and every one a faith-filled beleiver who exhibit an appalling lack of sympathy and empathy for their fellow human beings.

[Joey2ness]

Not everyone agrees on these rules . . . For instance, some Christians say it's ok to be gay,

Condemned Christians
Do not be deceived many say they are Christians yet they practice something that is clearly condemned in the Christian Bible

Others will tell you that only 144,000 people are gonna make it into Heaven, and everyone else is going to Hell.

Not many go to Heaven – Matthew 7:14
"Narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it."

Kingdom of Christ and God - 1 Corinthians 6:9
do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals

Most of us are or were fornicators - (voluntary sexual intercourse between two unmarried persons or male and female not married to each other.)

And then, some Christians say that if you were saved once, then you're always saved, no matter what.

Born Again- Being saved (reincarnation)
The Bible says that the way to be Saved or Born Again is to repent of your sin

Jesus said in John 3:3-6 unless a man is born again he cannot see or enter the kingdom of God. A man is spiritually dead because of sin.

[Tock]

- 1 Corinthians 6:9
do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals

Gee, what's the problem with effeminate guys not going to Heaven? You're telling me that you don't have to commit a crime or a sin? Just looking a little bit like a woman is enough to keep you out?


Surely you're joking . . .

[Joey2ness]

I'm sure I missed quite a few others, of mean-spirited Christians who do terrible things

You missed one, contrary to popular beliefs, One of the most Evil men of our times, Adolf Hitler was actually a Bible believing Christian. But not only was Hitler a Christian, but he used Christianity to justify the evil he did against Jews and other people.

The Christianity of Hitler revealed in his speeches and proclamations
Hitler's own words reveal his feelings for God, Christianity and faith. Taken from speeches made by Hitler from the 1922 to 1939

[Joey2ness]

Gee, what's the problem with effeminate guys not going to Heaven? You're telling me that you don't have to commit a crime or a sin? Just looking a little bit like a woman is enough to keep you out?

The Greek word from which the King James Holy Bible gets the word “effeminate” is malakos, which literally means something soft to the touch, but is used as a negative metaphor to refer to a boy kept for homosexual relations with a man.

1) soft, soft to the touch
2) metaph. in a bad sense -a) effeminate
3) of a catamite
4) of a boy kept for homosexual relations with a man
5) of a male who submits his body to unnatural lewdness
6) of a male prostitute

[Kärnfysikern]

So if there's a God, then why is it so hard to believe that he could make animals talk, or the story of Noah's ark. What's much more difficult to believe is that complex living organisms that cover the earth popped into existence by chance.

That is a missunderstanding of how evolution(in the broad sense of the word as in everything since the big bang) works.
Its not by pure chanse like throwing dice. We have a set of natural laws that drives the universe towards complexity. Its inevitable that complex structures evolve.

Now who/what made the laws the way they are is a much more important question in my mind and one christians could focuse on without losing face. Attacking evolution is as futile as attacking any other scientific theory. There is not much point in trying to tear down a theory that gets verified each and every day and whos basic principles are completely proven.

[Teabagger]

You remind me of a professor I had in a religious studies course I took at university. He had been an ordained minister of the Methodist congregation. He had his Masters in Divinity from Harvard, and his Phd from Harvard as well. Really enjoyed his class because he made my faith stronger by constantly challenging belief systems... although oddly enough they were always the Judeo-Christian belief systems. He, like you, would take items from the Bible and deliver them out of context, providing half truths wrecking havoc on the young minds in the class. After a quarter of him I had some serious questions myself, or I thought they were serious questions so I spent a couple of hours with my parish priest. He knew this professor well and said this professor enjoyed kicking the legs out from under his young students with the half truths. The questions I had turned out easily, and logically answered...no mystery at all. But you are a lot like him...he had a grudge against God, apparently didn't like what he had learned, but he used his position in a foul way, and he, as all of us one day will be judged for our actions and inactions.

[Mike Dura]

How does one confuse simplistic thinking with complex life? You know better than me. For me, I wonder that all the time! Lol!

How does one confuse simplistic thinking with complex life anyway?

This makes no sense, very revealing that Carlos laughed at it though..........
At least you are down to a single sentence.

[Mike Dura]

I don't think the bible is a worthless book. But that's not to say that there are worthless ways of reading the bible. It depends on the person and their abilility to interpret text. Differences in interpretation are really differences in literacy.

Seems the bible is singled out plenty in here, tit for tat.

[Mike Dura]

Both life and morality can be seen in many ways. In other words, it's not so simple and clear-cut. That is not to say that some people make it simple and clear-cut or "black and white." Absolute thinking in modern times leads to intolerance and destructive consequences in general.

Complex life? What do you think makes life complex in regards to morality?

[Mike Dura]

You're right, it doesn't make sense. That's what's called a typo. I meant to say "sweep" not peak. You interpret that as trying to be "too smart." I interpret it as an error. That's what makes life interesting - we all have our ways of making interpretations about the motives and intentions of others. Either those interpretations help us understand or it alienates! Either way, it makes little difference here because I have no need to be understood by people I will never meet. It makes for interesting dialogue. I'd get really bored if everyone thought or expressed themselves like me but I'd be even more bored if everyone thought and expressed themselves like you.

Is it just me, or does this statement make absolutely no sense at all?



OK -- "In a broad historical peak," -- the nature of a peak is that it's not broad, "it's been in moral decline since day one - nothing new here." -- so if the correct term here was moral decline, it would mean that morality has diminished over time, thus being in a constant state of change and there would always be a new state of morality in the world, no?



You try too hard to make yourself look smart and it backfires on you sometimes.

[Mike Dura]

lol, oh no! Logan is finding some validation through the "alpha!" Lol!

EXACTLY!!

[Mike Dura]

If the bible is so provable then what is the point of faith? Faith, by definition, is the choice to believe in something without supporting evidence. I think in fundamental ways, you're missing the point of your own religion. Maybe you're in poor faith.

[QUOTE=alphaman]The Bible has been confirmed by archaeology in an overwhelming amount of instances. Look it up.

[Mike Dura]

Interesting statement. Maybe it can be couched in a different way. Is the bible a means toward having crystal-clear clarity or it a means toward opening yourself up to the mysteries of existence.

The same text can be used in both ways. I'm more impressed with the latter possibibility because for me it's more humble and more functional to orient a person towards the complexities of life. Better to be open-minded and humble IMO than it is to be closed-minded and confident - like some of the Archie Bunker types that are posting on this thread. Although I can understand and empathize with the psychological comfort that clarity brings, I think it's divisive. It's more courageous, imo, and more noble to be open-minded and questioning. I think it can be more about the question and less about the answer. Knowlege has it's limits and one is more than just a mind and the "scheme of things" is more than just a conceptualization. Confusion and uncertainty can be tolerated and judgment can be suspended. Knowing too quickly is the enemy! The beatnics use to say, lose your mind and come back to your body" maybe there you will find God. God runs away when you pigeon-hole him into a concept (don't take that literally).

"Loosing your mind and coming back to your senses" or the experiential has an element in all of the great religions - the monks know this better than the priests. It's not about social consensus about conceptual formulations, it's about personal experience and what's going on within the individual. It's personal not public. That's where many Christians miss the point. Carl Jung used to say that organized religeon (the public or the "we") is a defense against the religious experience (the personal or the "I").

You remind me of a professor I had in a religious studies course I took at university. He had been an ordained minister of the Methodist congregation. He had his Masters in Divinity from Harvard, and his Phd from Harvard as well. Really enjoyed his class because he made my faith stronger by constantly challenging belief systems... although oddly enough they were always the Judeo-Christian belief systems. He, like you, would take items from the Bible and deliver them out of context, providing half truths wrecking havoc on the young minds in the class. After a quarter of him I had some serious questions myself, or I thought they were serious questions so I spent a couple of hours with my parish priest. He knew this professor well and said this professor enjoyed kicking the legs out from under his young students with the half truths. The questions I had turned out easily, and logically answered...no mystery at all. But you are a lot like him...he had a grudge against God, apparently didn't like what he had learned, but he used his position in a foul way, and he, as all of us one day will be judged for our actions and inactions.

[Tock]

You remind me of a professor I had in a religious studies course I took at university. He had been an ordained minister of the Methodist congregation. He had his Masters in Divinity from Harvard, and his Phd from Harvard as well. Really enjoyed his class because he made my faith stronger by constantly challenging belief systems..

I'm glad you enjoy my company . . .

He, like you, would take items from the Bible and deliver them out of context,

Oh?
And how have the things I've mentioned been taken out of context?

I had some serious questions myself, . . . . so I spent a couple of hours with my parish priest. He knew this professor well and said this professor enjoyed kicking the legs out from under his young students with the half truths. The questions I had turned out easily, and logically answered...no mystery at all.

Sounds like you went looking for reassurance for your challenged orthodoxy.
Well, it's no skin off of my nose . . . I hope you're happy.

But you are a lot like him...he had a grudge against God,

I beg your pardon . . .
I have no grudge against God. I do, however, bear considerable antipathy towards the varieties of organized religion that make empty promises and make preachers rich. You see these sob's on TV all the time.
I also bear antipathy to religious organizations and preachers that create classes of people to ostracize; that create a "Godly Us" and "Evil Them."
I also bear antipathy to religious organizations that demand free public services.
Most of all, I bear antipathy to preachers and religious organizations that attempt to frighten people with idle threats of Hell Fire and Brimstone into conversions and giving $$$.

To God, well, I have had no encounter with such a Being, I have no information about such a Being, so I know nothing about any such Being. Therefore, how can I possibly be angry or hold a grudge against It?

apparently didn't like what he had learned,

If they filled his head with fundamentalist doctrine, that would be understandable.

. . . and he, as all of us one day will be judged for our actions and inactions.

Ah, yes, another warning -- turn or burn . . . Idle threats, idle threats . . . the hallmark of Christian Fundamentalism . . .
Tsk tsk tsk . . .

[Tock]

Originally Posted by Tock
Gee, what's the problem with effeminate guys not going to Heaven? You're telling me that you don't have to commit a crime or a sin? Just looking a little bit like a woman is enough to keep you out?

The Greek word from which the King James Holy Bible gets the word “effeminate” is malakos, which literally means something soft to the touch, but is used as a negative metaphor to refer to a boy kept for homosexual relations with a man.

1) soft, soft to the touch
2) metaph. in a bad sense -a) effeminate
3) of a catamite
4) of a boy kept for homosexual relations with a man
5) of a male who submits his body to unnatural lewdness
6) of a male prostitute

Ok, so tell me who you think isn't going to make it to Heaven.
1) soft people?
2) effeminate, unmasculine men?
3) catamites?
4) boys kept for gay relations?
5) sexually submissive males?
6) male prostitutes?

Seems to me the English translation, which says "Nor effeminate," may have lost something in the translation. Care to venture a guess on how much of the rest of the English Bible is similarly misunderstood?

[Logan13]

http://www.catholiceducation.org/art...ty/ho0075.html

The Health Risks of Gay Sex
JOHN R. DIGGS, JR. M.D.

Promiscuity among lesbians is less extreme, but it is still higher than among heterosexual women. Overall, women tend to have fewer sex partners than men(with men). But there is a surprising finding about lesbian promiscuity in the literature. Australian investigators reported that lesbian women were 4.5 times more likely to have had more than 50 lifetime male partners than heterosexual women (9 percent of lesbians versus 2 percent of heterosexual women); and 93 percent of women who identified themselves as lesbian reported a history of sex with men.17 Other studies similarly show that 75-90 percent of women who have sex with women have also had sex with men.

I do not see where Tock or Carlos apologized to you after insinuating that you made this statement up. Very telling.........

[Carlos_E]

http://www.catholiceducation.org/art...ty/ho0075.html

The Health Risks of Gay Sex
JOHN R. DIGGS, JR. M.D.

Promiscuity among lesbians is less extreme, but it is still higher than among heterosexual women. Overall, women tend to have fewer sex partners than men(with men). But there is a surprising finding about lesbian promiscuity in the literature. Australian investigators reported that lesbian women were 4.5 times more likely to have had more than 50 lifetime male partners than heterosexual women (9 percent of lesbians versus 2 percent of heterosexual women); and 93 percent of women who identified themselves as lesbian reported a history of sex with men.17 Other studies similarly show that 75-90 percent of women who have sex with women have also had sex with men.

Look at your source. (catholic education.org) I question the validity of their research. Also, no where here does it say that lesbians are at a higher risk for STDs. It does not say they're having unprotected sex.

???

[Logan13]

Look at your source. (catholic education.org) I question the validity of their research. Also, no where here does it say that lesbians are at a higher risk for STDs. It does not say they hare having unprotected sex.

???

You asked for a source, you got one. It does make factual sense, regardless of the source..........Do you still think that Joey2ness made it up?

[Tock]

Originally Posted by Joey2ness
http://www.catholiceducation.org/art...ty/ho0075.html

The Health Risks of Gay Sex
JOHN R. DIGGS, JR. M.D.

Promiscuity among lesbians is less extreme, but it is still higher than among heterosexual women. Overall, women tend to have fewer sex partners than men(with men). But there is a surprising finding about lesbian promiscuity in the literature. Australian investigators reported that lesbian women were 4.5 times more likely to have had more than 50 lifetime male partners than heterosexual women (9 percent of lesbians versus 2 percent of heterosexual women); and 93 percent of women who identified themselves as lesbian reported a history of sex with men.17 Other studies similarly show that 75-90 percent of women who have sex with women have also had sex with men.

I do not see where Tock or Carlos apologized to you after insinuating that you made this statement up. Very telling.........

Where did I insinuate that he made this up?

Sheesh . . .

Your thought processes are not unlike a 10 foot wide truck speeding along a 9 foot wide mountainside road . . . it goes over the edge . . .

[Carlos_E]

You asked for a source, you got one. It does make factual sense, regardless of the source..........Do you still think that Joey2ness made it up?

Yes. I don't see a reference to STDs.

[Logan13]

Originally Posted by Joey2ness
http://www.catholiceducation.org/art...ty/ho0075.html

Your thought processes are not unlike a 10 foot wide truck speeding along a 9 foot wide mountainside road . . . it goes over the edge . . .

My thought process is like a 10 foot wide "logic" truck, I roll over everything in my path...........

[Logan13]

78 posts in a thread about a "Lesbian How-To Book"? Admit it guys, we all want to know how to be a lesbian, well except for like 3 of us.....