Poll on Israel

**ecivon** · 11-24-2006, 11:33 AM

Poll on Israel:

http://www.ynetnews.com/Ext/Comp/Art...331279,00.html

**eliteforce** · 11-25-2006, 02:01 AM

Israel is the most unpopular country in the world:

Americans, for example, ranked Israel just slightly above China in terms of conduct in the areas of international peace and security.

..and Israeli's are considered the most unwelcoming people in the world..pretty much all of this is most likly because Israel's treatment of Palestinians

**Kärnfysikern** · 11-25-2006, 05:10 AM

Have to include a bit of comercial for sweden from the same index

Top of our list came Sweden, with consistently high
scores all around the hexagon.This country is almost
universally admired, and its brand image boasts a rare
combination of stable and responsible governance,
honest and trustworthy people, successful cultural
exports, a prime location for investment, and yet isn’t
seen as boring or predictable, but young and dynamic.
Few other countries manage to maintain such a healthy
balance between basic reassurance and a touch of
vibrancy, adventure and youthful spirit.

**singern** · 11-25-2006, 01:40 PM

Originally Posted by eliteforce

Israel is the most unpopular country in the world:

Americans, for example, ranked Israel just slightly above China in terms of conduct in the areas of international peace and security.

..and Israeli's are considered the most unwelcoming people in the world..pretty much all of this is most likly because Israel's treatment of Palestinians

Sorry to contradict your cut and past from the tatoo on Nasrala's ass, but we hosted a Palestinian wedding last weekend at our farm (kibbutz). All were welcome, and all had a great time.
You should come to the land of Israel and see just how misguided and ignorant your hezbola hero really is.

**ecivon** · 11-25-2006, 01:45 PM

Originally Posted by singern

Sorry to contradict your cut and past from the tatoo on Nasrala's ass, but we hosted a Palestinian wedding last weekend at our farm (kibbutz). All were welcome, and all had a great time.
You should come to the land of Israel and see just how misguided and ignorant your hezbola hero really is.

If that's a fact and I'm certainly not challenging your truthfulness, that is fantastic. Much more of that is needed and unfortunately that that does take place never makes the news. I've told you I have worked in the ME and have many, many contacts on both sides and have submitted friend of the court briefs to the ICC -- in support of issues for both sides -- and would like to send a press release on what you did, it is certainly newsworthy. Would you be interested?

**singern** · 11-25-2006, 03:32 PM

Originally Posted by ecivon

If that's a fact and I'm certainly not challenging your truthfulness, that is fantastic. Much more of that is needed and unfortunately that that does take place never makes the news. I've told you I have worked in the ME and have many, many contacts on both sides and have submitted friend of the court briefs to the ICC -- in support of issues for both sides -- and would like to send a press release on what you did, it is certainly newsworthy. Would you be interested?

Well this sort of thing is not a single occurence, Much of the good that comes out of the mideast never hits the news, there are cities, and villages where Israeli and arab live in harmony.
The current atmosphere is not as black and white as many are lead to believe.

My home is called Kibbutz Erez, located well inside the Israeli side of the Gaza green line. We are part of a group of collective farms called "Shaar Hanegev" Look us up some time. I can promise you a beer and a laugh.

**ecivon** · 11-25-2006, 03:55 PM

Originally Posted by singern

Well this sort of thing is not a single occurence, Much of the good that comes out of the mideast never hits the news, there are cities, and villages where Israeli and arab live in harmony.
The current atmosphere is not as black and white as many are lead to believe.

My home is called Kibbutz Erez, located well inside the Israeli side of the Gaza green line. We are part of a group of collective farms called "Shaar Hanegev" Look us up some time. I can promise you a beer and a laugh.

I would truly love to meet you there for a 'few' beers and a lot of laughs -- though I might be considered persona-non-grata to the Israeli government. I've collaborated with Yossi Beilin and Yasser Abed-Rabbo and Amit Ayalon and Sari Nusseibeh on their projects. My personal views are for a one-state solution, which is not very popular. But I don't push my personal views. I've also worked with MIFTAH/Hanan Ashrawi and am fairly well known to the PA and in some Israeli areas. I've written hundreds of articles and published documents which have been picked up all over the world, including within Israel, but not once in the U.S. which isn't surprising. I did have one document included in a research book focused on the ME conflict that is classed as a higher learning research book and is circulated as a reference book on the ME conflict in just about all high school and university libraries in the U.S. and I was surprised by that. I'm deeply troubled by the conflict and the violence and hold both sides responsible. I'm especially troubled at the Palestinian side for so easily foregoing the political path in favor of armed resistance, but do not blame them for that. I've told them as much, but Arabs can be very stubborn, as Israelis -- perhaps a common thread in Semites??

**Logan13** · 11-26-2006, 07:21 PM

Originally Posted by ecivon

Poll on Israel:

http://www.ynetnews.com/Ext/Comp/Art...331279,00.html

Duh! Who would seriously want to visit Israel at this time? There has been a war going on there for quite awhile now....

I am quite sure that the following countries would score well below Israel if they would have been included in the poll:
Iraq
Iran
Palestine
Syria
North Korea

**eliteforce** · 11-29-2006, 06:41 AM

Yea like I'm sure all that crap with the walls and aphartied and check-points and occupation and land confiscations oppresion isn't really happening because you had this 1 wedding for some arabs and all were welcome..like that has anything to do with it..

ecivon can you tell us more about the 1 state solution that you mentioned?

**ecivon** · 11-29-2006, 10:46 AM

Originally Posted by eliteforce

Yea like I'm sure all that crap with the walls and aphartied and check-points and occupation and land confiscations oppresion isn't really happening because you had this 1 wedding for some arabs and all were welcome..like that has anything to do with it..

ecivon can you tell us more about the 1 state solution that you mentioned?

It is a certainty that alot would have to be overcome before a one-state solution could even begin to take hold. There would be problems/reluctance from both the arab and jewish sides. There is great animosity between both sides even before the first intifada began. Though Israel claims to be a democracy, it is not. It is democratic only for jews. Goyim and especially arabs, do not have the same rights as jews in Israel. Israel was granted statehood and UN charter and membership under certain conditions which applied to the acceptance and inclusion of indigenous arabs (Palestinians). According to the UN the jews had their defined borders and the Palestinians theirs. How those borders were defined by the UN mandates (UNGA and SC resolutions) look nothing to the much reduced borders of the West Bank and Gaza Strip today. There has been a continuous and relentless land grab since day one by the jews. The Israelis have never upheld their commitment to their UN mandates and have continuously attacked and punished the Palestinians relentlessly since the late 1930's, through terrorist organizations such as the Irgun. The Irgun were a violent offshoot from the Haganah and the Night Patrols and were led by Moshe Dayan and Mencahem Begin, later Israeli Prime Ministers. The Palestinians were terrorized and attacked at free will, as were the British, by the jews. The intent of the jews was to drive the Palestinians from their lands and homes and to either kill them, or drive them into neighboring countries. Entire Palestinian villages were destroyed, completely and literally wiped off the map and replaced with jewish settlements. Hundreds of villages were destroyed and eliminated. The people of these towns were forced to flee and fled to adjoining countries, most notably Lebanon and Jordan, which have very large Palestinian refugee populations. The Palestinians called this forced expulsion the 'Nakba' -- the catastrophe. Estimates put the 1949 exodus numbers at 900,000 Palestinians.

The political events in Israel today are manifested in Zionism. This current version of Zionism was a creation of Theodor Herzl during the late 1800's. Today's version is a radical far right departure from the Der Judenstaat (The Jewish State) version of Herzl, in that today's version espouses the total elimination (the Transfer) of every single Palestinian from what Zionists view as their God given land, Eretz Yisroel, from The-River-To-The-Sea, from Jordan to the Mediterranean. This 'Transfer', as practiced by current Zionists, including Ariel Sharon, Benyamin Netanyahu, Ehud Olmert, Ehud Barak and most other Israeli politicians involves making life so miserable for every single Palestinian that they will 1.) either succumb, or 2.) find life so miserable they will leave. What you see in the occupied territories of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip is intentionally designed to inflict severe abject poverty and hardships (roadblocks, checkpoints, jews only roads, curfews, cutting power, food and water supplies) designed to implement transfer.

The problem for the Palestinians is that they fight back and this gives the Israeli Zionist fundamentalists the opportunity to strike back with wanton and excessive force. Many people in the international community and the UN believe this is calculated and intentional. What we see in the press/media though is a biased and corrupted version of what is actually taking place as every media outlet is jewish owned, or controlled and the jewish version paints the jews as innocent victims and the Palestinians as terrorists.

There have been many legitimate peace opportunities from both the Israeli and Palestinian sides. And forget about Oslo, Camp David (Arafat and Barak) and the Tenet Plan. They offered nothing to the Palestinians, yet the Palestinians were characterized as refusing to negotiate. Nothing was further from the truth. In truth Barak made a feigned public attempt to offer Arafat a carrot yet held it back where he could never reach it. It was a ruse.

Two other notable attempts at peace have emerged, one was called the Geneva Accord and the other the One State Solution. I have worked on and participated in both of them. Both of them were summarily rejected by the Zionists as they had no intention of giving a thing to the Palestinians, but taking every last thing the Palestinians clung to. They want it all. The one state solution calls for one state with no borders and full right of return for the Nakba refugees and their families/descendants. Both jews and arabs living side-by-side in a fully democratic state. This is not acceptable as the jews fear demographic leverage, which they fear in any regard. That one day very soon the arabs will outnumber the jews and will take over in politics and have a perceived upper hand in the politics of the state. That it will cease to be a jewish state. The Geneva Accord on the other hand calls for Israel to accept and implement all their obligations under their original UN mandate and remove every single jew from the West Bank and Gaza Strip and accept the corrupted 1948 Green Line as the border between Israel and Palestine.

Israel refuses to do this because it will mean giving up land it has stolen which they intend to annex as part of Israel in any final solution. This is the purpose of the so-called 'Security Wall', a land grab as opposed to the stated purpose of providing security. The intention is to divide the West Bank into at least two Cantons (bantustans), completely surrounded by walls, in effect imprisoning every single arab within its boundaries, as in the Gaza Strip. The jews would control the keys to the gate. No one would be allowed to enter, or exit these prisons. No airports would be allowed, all airspace would be Israeli controlled. The West Bank would literally be two big open air prisons, as is the Gaza Strip today. Nothing is allowed into, or out of the Gaza Strip. The jews destroyed the only source of power in Gaza. Food and humanitarian aid is only very occasionally allowed into the area. The jews control the airspace over Gaza, the mediterranean and the Rafeh Crossing.

**singern** · 11-29-2006, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by eliteforce

Yea like I'm sure all that crap with the walls and aphartied and check-points and occupation and land confiscations oppresion isn't really happening because you had this 1 wedding for some arabs and all were welcome..like that has anything to do with it..

ecivon can you tell us more about the 1 state solution that you mentioned?

It seems to just grind your gears to hear that not all Muslims hate Israelis. Peace will indeed happen one day, and most Palestinians and Israelis alike look forward to that day.

The checkpoints, and walls you speak of were created out of necessity, and it has worked wonderfully to keep out terrorists, and the criminal element. This simple concept would not be so difficult to understand if you had an open mind, and stop putting so much energy into hating a people you never met.

.

**ecivon** · 11-29-2006, 11:29 AM

There is a lot of blame to go around on both sides. The Palestinians are not totally blameless in the events that have shaped that region and neither are the Israelis. There are terrorists and extremists on both sides, but there are very genuine partners for peace on both sides as well. And neither side has the right to Revisionism.

To me the most basic element in all of the conflicts in the world boil down to religious fundamentalism, the inability of different religions to co-exist.

**singern** · 11-29-2006, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by ecivon

To me the most basic element in all of the conflicts in the world boil down to religious fundamentalism, the inability of different religions to co-exist.

I somewhat agree, I believe all religions can and do exist peacefully, it is the extremist elements that foment and incite hatred, and violence.
The Jewish extremist group that followed Rabbi Kahanna were expelled from Israel and made an outlawed group. Why cannot the Islamic nation do the same with Hamas, or Hezbola, who pervert, and distort Islam? why cannot the Christian faith do this with the KKK who portray themselves as the saviors of true christianity?
It is a social, and cultural responsibility to inspire and protect from extremist and violent elements. It is however a political, and law enforcement responsibility to clean up what hasnt.

**ecivon** · 11-29-2006, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by singern

I somewhat agree, I believe all religions can and do exist peacefully, it is the extremist elements that foment and incite hatred, and violence.
The Jewish extremist group that followed Rabbi Kahanna were expelled from Israel and made an outlawed group. Why cannot the Islamic nation do the same with Hamas, or Hezbola, who pervert, and distort Islam? why cannot the Christian faith do this with the KKK who portray themselves as the saviors of true christianity?
It is a social, and cultural responsibility to inspire and protect from extremist and violent elements. It is however a political, and law enforcement responsibility to clean up what hasnt.

I don't know how to answer that Singern. Maybe it's just part of our point in time that we will all have to deal with along our timeline passage. We are definitely living in a time of trials, tribulations and incivility and conflict. Maybe it's just part of a painful process we need to go through to get to a point where we all need to be in context of a greater humanity.

And unfortunately the Kahanists are back operating in Israel, the US and in at least France and England and resorting to violence.

Peace to you and yours Bro ...

**eliteforce** · 11-29-2006, 08:40 PM

A one state solution, a normal secular democracy called Israel-Palestine (or Palestine-Israel?) isn't it funny that the US is in this war in Iraq with the intesnt of forging the Arab Sunni-Arab Shiite-Kurdish secular democracy and that Lebanon is a secular democracy of Christians and Muslims and the US accuses Hezbollah of creating a state within a state and that they should dis-arm an accept a single Lebanese Army as the authority..but the the US advocates a "2 state solution" for Israel and Palestine..and as ecivon noted that the US actually backs a 2 state solution that winds up being aphartied or a jail with Palestinians confined to ridiculously small disconected area's .. and anyone that would suggest a one-state solution is an extremist that is trying to "destroy Israel" .
makes you wonder why the US even bothers with Iraq if they don't really beleive in that kind of system, or maybe it's because the real agenda in Iraq is American domination of that country and it's resources and that it's not really a one state solution but imperialism to complement that other oppresion in Palestine.

**mcpeepants** · 11-29-2006, 09:24 PM

i think the only way to solve the problem is one-secular democratic state.

**ecivon** · 11-29-2006, 09:49 PM

Originally Posted by eliteforce

A one state solution, a normal secular democracy called Israel-Palestine (or Palestine-Israel?) isn't it funny that the US is in this war in Iraq with the intesnt of forging the Arab Sunni-Arab Shiite-Kurdish secular democracy and that Lebanon is a secular democracy of Christians and Muslims and the US accuses Hezbollah of creating a state within a state and that they should dis-arm an accept a single Lebanese Army as the authority..but the the US advocates a "2 state solution" for Israel and Palestine..and as ecivon noted that the US actually backs a 2 state solution that winds up being aphartied or a jail with Palestinians confined to ridiculously small disconected area's .. and anyone that would suggest a one-state solution is an extremist that is trying to "destroy Israel" .
makes you wonder why the US even bothers with Iraq if they don't really beleive in that kind of system, or maybe it's because the real agenda in Iraq is American domination of that country and it's resources and that it's not really a one state solution but imperialism to complement that other oppresion in Palestine.

I don't have time tonight, but tomorrow I'll post some thoughts on Baghdad and that war from some very prominent think tanks.