No-spank bill on way in California

[Logan13]

No-spank bill on way in California
01/18/07
Mercury News
SACRAMENTO - The state Legislature is about to weigh in on a question that stirs impassioned debate among moms and dads: Should parents spank their children?

Assemblywoman Sally Lieber, D-Mountain View, wants to outlaw spanking children up to 3 years old. If she succeeds, California would become the first state in the nation to explicitly ban parents from smacking their kids.

Making a swat on the behind a misdemeanor might seem a bit much for some -- and the chances of the idea becoming law appear slim, at best -- but Lieber begs to differ.

``I think it's pretty hard to argue you need to beat a child 3 years old or younger,'' Lieber said. ``Is it OK to whip a 1-year-old or a 6-month-old or a newborn?''

The bill, which is still being drafted, will be written broadly, she added, prohibiting ``any striking of a child, any corporal punishment, smacking, hitting, punching, any of that.'' Lieber said it would be a misdemeanor, punishable by up to a year in jail or a fine up to $1,000, although a legal expert advising her on the proposal said first-time offenders would probably only have to attend parenting classes.

The idea is encountering skepticism even before it's been formally introduced. Beyond the debate among child psychologists -- many of whom believe limited spanking can be effective -- the bill is sure to face questions over how practical it is to enforce and opposition from some legislators who generally oppose what they consider ``nanny government.''

``Where do you stop?'' asked Assemblyman Chuck DeVore, R-Irvine, who said he personally agrees children under 3 shouldn't be spanked but has no desire to make it the law. ``At what point are we going to say we should pass a bill that every parent has to read a minimum of 30 minutes every night to their child? This is right along those same lines.''

One San Jose mother of three said she believes spanking is a poor way to discipline children, but she also wondered whether a legislative ban makes sense. Should a mom who slaps her misbehaving kid in the supermarket, she asked, be liable for a crime?

``If my 6-year-old doesn't put his clothes in the hamper, I'm not going to whack him. He just won't get his clothes washed,'' said Peggy Hertzberg, 38, who teaches parenting classes at the YWCA. ``I think instead of banning spanking, parents need to learn different ways of disciplining and redirecting their children.''

Lieber conceived the idea while chatting with a family friend and legal expert in children's issues worldwide. The friend, Thomas Nazario, said that while banning spanking might seem like a radical step for the United States, more than 10 European countries already do so. Sweden was the first, in 1979.

Nazario said there's no good rationale for hitting a child under 3, so the state should draw a ``bright line'' in the law making it clear.

``Why do we allow parents to hit a little child and not someone their own size?'' asked Nazario, a professor at the University of San Francisco Law School. ``Everyone in the state is protected from physical violence, so where do you draw the line? To take a child and spank his little butt until he starts crying, some people would define that as physical violence.''

It's unclear how a spanking ban would be enforced. Most slapping, after all, happens in the confines of a home, and most children up to age 3 aren't capable of reporting it.

Doctors, social workers and others who believe a child has been abused are required by law to report it to authorities. Nazario said he and Lieber are still debating whether to treat slapping the same way, or simply to encourage those who witness it to report it. But in either case, said Lieber, the law ``would allow people who view a beating to say, `Excuse me, that's against the law.' ''

Experts in child psychology disagree over whether spanking is a legitimate or effective way for parents to discipline their children. Professor Robert Larzelere, who has studied child discipline for 30 years, said his research shows spanking is fine, as long as it's used sparingly and doesn't escalate to abuse.

``If it's used in a limited way,'' the Oklahoma State University professor said, ``it can be more effective than almost any other type of punishment.'' He added that children 18 months old or younger shouldn't be spanked at all, because they can't understand why it's happening.

As for Lieber's proposal, the professor said: ``I think this proposal is not just a step too far, it's a leap too far. At least from a scientific perspective there really isn't any research to support the idea that this would make things better for children.''

But Lieber is optimistic that lawmakers will find her proposal hard to resist. For the record, she does not have children and says she was not slapped as a child. But she does have a cat named Snoop, which her veterinarian told her never to hit.

``And if you never hit a cat,'' Lieber said, ``you should never hit a kid.''

[Logan13]

It really does not matter what the majority thinks. California lawmakers always seem to think that they know better than the majority anyway.
CBS 5 Poll: Majority Oppose Calif. Spanking Ban
01/18/07
(CBS 5 / KCBS) SAN FRANCISCO Do parents have the right to spank their children? It is a controversial issue, and while a Bay Area lawmaker wants it addressed in Sacramento -- a majority of those surveyed for a new CBS 5 poll expressed opposition to a spanking ban.

In California, it's currently against the law for anyone but parents to spank a child. A proposed new law would make it illegal for them, too, if the child is 3 years old or younger.

Assemblywoman Sally Lieber (D-Mountain View) wants the practice of swatting a child on the behind outlawed and is in the process of drafting a bill to do so.

A poll of 500 Bay Area adults conducted for CBS 5 by Survey USA on Thursday found 57% would oppose such a bill, while only 23% would support it. The poll, with a margin of error of plus or minus 4.4%, showed 11% undecided.

Parents at the playgroup at Parent's Place in San Francisco, non-profit Jewish family child and parents service group, said they don't believe in spanking young children, but they said outlawing it worries them.

Joanna Jhanda as a one year old girl, said she understands the need for a law, but it troubles her: "There are certainly cases of extreme abuse,and those need to be addressed. I don't know if this law would help those children."

Victoria Wylie has a four month old and she's worried about where the law draws the line. She said, "If someone sees me doing something.. what they would consider spanking.. and it's not, I'm a little uncomfortable I'd be under investigation."

The proposed law would make spanking a child under 3 misdemeanor child abuse, an extenstion of current corporal punishment laws.

Violators could spend a year in jail, and pay up to $1000 in fines. Enforcement is unclear.

San Francisco assistant district attorney Paul Henderson prosecutes child abuse cases, and he welcomes a no spanking law.

"If you're going to spank your child, you need to know the limit," said Henderson, "and you need to know that doing it in a way that's cruel or traumatic causes injury, and that you could be prosecuted."

At the parenting classes at Parent's Place, spanking is considered the wrong discipline. Lee Ann Slaton leads discipline classes there. She said, "It teaches a child, if you're bigger you can hit. Violence begets violence.. and they're not learning."

An anti-spanking law in California would be the country's first. Supporters claim the U.S. is far behind some other nations in this issue. According to Lieber, fifteen countries worldwide have outlawed spanking of children, and under international law, it's considered a human rights abuse.

Critics maintain a spanking ban is an intrusion on the family, while supporters call it protecting a defenseless child.

[SurfJunkie]

Anyone ever heard of the terrible twos? I'm not sayin lay into your newborn cause they won't stop crying, thats just rediculous. I grew up in a strict christian household (which to my adopting parents dismay only made me despise the idea of religion more, but thats another story) and believe me, they believed in spankings. I turned out just fine (as far as I'm concerned) I don't have any permenant scars or unexplained fears of wooden spoons. This whole no spanking thing is rediculous. There needs to be a line as to how much controlfrom the government can be asserted on a family when it comes to how they choose to raise thier child. Many people, including myself, believe that a swift crack on the butt when its deserved has a lot more effect on discouraging a child from negative behavior than the little "Now tommy, you know you shouldn't do that... thats not nice. If you keep it up, daddy is gonna make you stand in the corner until you decide to just walk away and then he might say something about it but instead will call Dr. Phill and ask why you don't act right". style of parenting. F*** that. You snatch that little punk kid up when they're wrong and you make sure what they know what they did was wrong and they'll be punished for it. If they're not afaid to do wrong then they always will. And you have to instill it early otherwise you'll never get control of them. Thats my opinion though And if someone else prefers the "go sit in the corner" no spanking style thats fine. That should be up to the parent. Not the government. Thats my .02 on the subject

[3Vandoo]

thats just weird

when my grand parents or parents where kid, did you ever heard of hyperactive little arrogant non raised unrespectfull bastards?
NO, they smacked the hell out of them and they actually turned better than what we see now, overprotected pussified "KING" kid

[perfectbeast2001]

so if they carch GSSXR spanking me he will get in trouble?

[Kärnfysikern]

When I read the thread title I thought it was about a whole different kind of spanking.

[Snrf]

I was never spanked, it took time in prison before I was on the straight and narrow.

Now I'm ranked in the top 5% in my class at University

Point is, kids/people have gotta learn there are negative repercussions to some actions, until they do they'll do whatever the hell they want

[Kärnfysikern]

The only reason laws like this even gets suggested is because of the few asshole parents that doesnt know the difference betwen spank and beat I guess.

And offcourse the soccer moms.

[Logan13]

I was never spanked, it took time in prison before I was on the straight and narrow.

Now I'm ranked in the top 5% in my class at University

Point is, kids/people have gotta learn there are negative repercussions to some actions, until they do they'll do whatever the hell they want

Congratulations on turning your life around, it is not an easy thing to do. You should be proud and I hope your family is as well, seriously!

[Logan13]

The only reason laws like this even gets suggested is because of the few asshole parents that doesnt know the difference betwen spank and beat I guess.

And offcourse the soccer moms.

It's because we have turned into a touchy-feely society. No one should win in any athletic event, it might give kids an inferiority complex. Problem is that we cater to the lesser peoples while taking away from those that succeed. It goes against nature and the survival of the fittest.

[rafael]

politicians have no right to say how a parent should raise their child. if spanking is gonna make a better man/woman out of them...then spank away. but dont confuse a light spank with child abuse....child abuse is a big no-no in my book....but cmn lets be serious...some kids NEED to be spanked lol. i myself was never spanked. my parents didnt believe in that type of punishment. perhaps if i was spanked i would be less of an a****le who knows:P

[Logan13]

A society that embraces mediocrity will be a mediocre society.

[Kärnfysikern]

I dont se how spanking or no spanking is related to mediocrity?

I dont agree with keeping the best and brightest back so that the stupid and slow can catch up. But its kind of what happens in swedish schools and we are still world leading in all areas of technology, science and in far more sports than we should with such a small population. So it doesnt seem like it has hurt us.

I still think its tremendously stupid though to focus all attention on the less gifted and ignoring the gifted. In a perfect world the stupid and slow should get every help to get through life while the gifted should get every aid to develop there talents. Ignoring either group is wrong.

[Logan13]

I dont se how spanking or no spanking is related to mediocrity?

Not directly, but in relation to our touchy-feely society. And competing is not just limited to athletics, life is a competition. It is, unless you live in a socialist country..............

[Kärnfysikern]

Not directly, but in relation to our touchy-feely society. And competing is not just limited to athletics, life is a competition. It is, unless you live in a socialist country..............

There is nothing wrong with taking care of the less competitive aslong as it isnt done on the expense of the truly bright.

The world is competitive yes, but that doesnt mean we have to leave those that cant keep up in the gutter.

[Logan13]

There is nothing wrong with taking care of the less competitive aslong as it isnt done on the expense of the truly bright.

The world is competitive yes, but that doesnt mean we have to leave those that cant keep up in the gutter.

I see it this way.............

"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." - Thomas Jefferson

"It is time for us all to stand and cheer for the doer, the achiever - the one who recognizes the challenges and does something about it."
- Vince Lombardi

"Everybody pities the weak; jealousy you have to earn."
- Arnold Schwarzenegger

[Kärnfysikern]

I see it this way.............

"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." - Thomas Jefferson

"It is time for us all to stand and cheer for the doer, the achiever - the one who recognizes the challenges and does something about it."
- Vince Lombardi

"Everybody pities the weak; jealousy you have to earn."
- Arnold Schwarzenegger

Well I never said anything about giving to those not willing to work. But I dont se anything wrong with giving to those unable to work. I dont have anything against cheering for the "doers". Nobody admires a cleaning lady. Bill Gates, Einstein, Ford those are people that changed the world. Not the workers like the communist tries to raise to the skies.

But just because we encourage the bright and gifted doesnt mean we should spit on the weak. Nobody chooses to be born stupid or disabled, but in our societies its easy to make sure everyone can live a decent life with very little expense to us.

[Kärnfysikern]

Ohh and humans have always taken care of the weak, the elderly and the sic. But how many today take care of there grandparents when they are to old to care for themself? How many take care of the family member that gets a disability?

Since we dont want to or cant do it ourself anymore its resonable to give that duty to society instead.

[Logan13]

Ohh and humans have always taken care of the weak, the elderly and the sic. But how many today take care of there grandparents when they are to old to care for themself? How many take care of the family member that gets a disability?

Since we dont want to or cant do it ourself anymore its resonable to give that duty to society instead.

That really pisses me off when people stick their elder family members away in some "home" because they do not want to take the time to care for them!

[Kärnfysikern]

That really pisses me off when people stick their elder family members away in some "home" because they do not want to take the time to care for them!

Well lets be realistic here, if its someone that require alot of care it would mean giving up your day job to take care of your grandfather or grandma. How many even have that possibility? I worked for a year taking care of elderly and disabled and there is no way a avarage joe could to that and work at the same time.

[Logan13]

Well lets be realistic here, if its someone that require alot of care it would mean giving up your day job to take care of your grandfather or grandma. How many even have that possibility? I worked for a year taking care of elderly and disabled and there is no way a avarage joe could to that and work at the same time.

Not everyone in a home is sick. When my parents and my wife's parents get too old to live on their own, they WILL be living with us. They will not require anymore care than was needed to take care of us as babies. People just do not want to be bothered or put-out, which I think is very, very sad!

[Kärnfysikern]

Not everyone in a home is sick. When my parents and my wife's parents get too old to live on their own, they WILL be living with us. They will not require anymore care than was needed to take care of us as babies. People just do not want to be bothered or put-out, which I think is very, very sad!

That is one of the faults of a socialistic country. Here its almost unheard of to have your parents or grandparents living with you.
Offcourse with the whole system we have here those that are not sic can live on their own until they die more or less. We have loads of people employed to go home to them, cook for them, shop ect. It costs nothing. Offcourse that means they are horribly alone instead, but they dont want to move in to there kids because they dont want to be a burden on them.

[Snrf]

I see it this way.............

"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." - Thomas Jefferson

"It is time for us all to stand and cheer for the doer, the achiever - the one who recognizes the challenges and does something about it."
- Vince Lombardi

"Everybody pities the weak; jealousy you have to earn."
- Arnold Schwarzenegger

DAMN good quote right there...TJ was the man!

[mcpeepants]

spanking is a great punishment. Spanking forces kids to know their parents mean business. I was only spanked 6 times as a child and know why I was spanked and did repeat my behavior again.

[Act of God]

I was rarely hit/spanked, but the times I did something to earn it....well, I didn't do it again.

Like it or not, "time out" doesn't deter bad behavior. The child's mind (According to Piaget and Erikson I believe) isn't even fully developed until young adulthood. They are still ruled by the id and can't comprehend morality, duty and so on. What they can understand, is pain and fear (just like an animal).

Like everyone here agrees, there is a line between discipline and abuse. If you take away the option for discipline (and its the anticipation or fear of it that really keeps them in line versus the actual punishment) the child has nothing to fear....except losing Xbox for a week.

And people wonder why kids are so out of control these days...gee, I wonder why?

[MuscleScience]

its all Oprahs fault