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    Israel freezes settlement, releases money to Abbas ahead of his talks with Hamas

    Israel freezes settlement, releases money to Abbas ahead of his talks with Hamas
    01/19/07
    AP
    JERUSALEM (AP) — Israel said Friday it had halted plans to build a new West Bank settlement and released frozen funds to Mahmoud Abbas, bolstering the moderate Palestinian president ahead of his talks in Syria with the supreme leader of the rival Hamas group.
    Abbas painted the talks as a final effort to end the violent conflict between his Fatah movement and Hamas over leadership of the Palestinians. He has threatened early elections if the two sides cannot agree on a national unity government.

    Fatah and Hamas have been at loggerheads since Hamas won parliamentary elections last year and formed a Cabinet. Israel and the West imposed an economic boycott on the Palestinians, demanding Hamas renounce violence and recognize Israel's right to exist. The militant group has refused.

    Abbas has been pushing Hamas for months to form a coalition government of independent experts in hopes of ending the sanctions, which have pushed Palestinians deeper into poverty. Tensions among the two groups have repeatedly exploded into open warfare in the Gaza Strip that has killed at least 62 people since last May.

    Abbas' meeting in Syria on Saturday with Hamas chief Khaled Mashaal would be their first in years. The distance between the leaders underscores their bitter rivalry and the deep ideological and political divisions they would need to overcome for a joint government.

    Israel's moves to halt the West Bank settlement at Maskiot and release funds to the Palestinians were part of its efforts to boost Abbas in his struggle with Hamas.

    Late Thursday, Israel gave Abbas $100 million in taxes it collects on behalf of the Palestinian government, saying the money would be used for humanitarian efforts and to strengthen Abbas' security forces, which are in the front lines of the fight against Hamas' militants.

    Israel froze the transfer of the money after the Hamas election victory.

    Abbas aide Saeb Erekat welcomed the payment, but said it still only represented about 25% of the halted funds.

    "We need it badly, and we consider this a step in the right direction, hoping that the whole lot of money withheld will be transferred to the Palestinian Authority," he said.

    Israeli Defense Minister Amir Peretz also ordered plans for the new West Bank settlement to be stopped indefinitely "in order to look carefully at the implications," ministry officials said Friday, speaking on condition of anonymity because of the issue's sensitivity.

    Israel's announcement last month that it had approved the construction of the Maskiot settlement drew international condemnation and infuriated the Palestinians. Israel has repeatedly promised not to build new settlements in the West Bank; Maskiot was the first approved since the early 1990s.

    The United States has also expressed its support for Abbas in recent days. Earlier this week, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said she would meet with Olmert and Abbas at a peacemaking summit in the first half of February. It would be the first meeting among the main parties thought necessary to draft any settlement in the dispute.

    Rice said Thursday the meeting will follow a gathering in Washington of the international sponsors of the dormant "road map" peace plan, which calls for the establishment of a Palestinian state alongside Israel. The plan foundered shortly after it was presented in 2003, with both sides failing to live up to their initial obligations.

    Meanwhile, the 10-year-old daughter of a Palestinian peace activist died Friday after being struck in the head days earlier by a rubber bullet fired by Israeli security forces in the West Bank. Abir Aramin's death was expected to further fan Arab anger against Israel.

    Israeli police spokesman Moshe Fintzy said an internal investigation into the girl's death had been opened.

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    We give, and give, and still the rockets fall, kidnaped citizens are not returned, and the terrorists strike.


    I want final solution as much as anybody, but reciprocity is the key, and I just dont see any.

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    If israel help abbas and fatha, doesnt that lead to him loosing support among the population?

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    Quote Originally Posted by singern
    I want final solution .....
    Caught me off guard for a second there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johan
    If israel help abbas and fatha, doesnt that lead to him loosing support among the population?
    The goal is to strengthen the moderate fatah. If Abbas can pay salaries, and move the peace process along, hopefully the population will stand behind him.
    Verses the continued devastation, poverty, and bloodshed that the extremism of Hamas is offering.

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    Quote Originally Posted by singern
    The goal is to strengthen the moderate fatah. If Abbas can pay salaries, and move the peace process along, hopefully the population will stand behind him.
    Verses the continued devastation, poverty, and bloodshed that the extremism of Hamas is offering.

    Yes I can understand the reason for Israel to aid Fatha.

    But if the majority of palestinians(and I dont know if this is the case) dispise israel why would they support a party that is supported by Israel?

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    Quote Originally Posted by johan
    Yes I can understand the reason for Israel to aid Fatha.

    But if the majority of palestinians(and I dont know if this is the case) dispise israel why would they support a party that is supported by Israel?
    Yes most Palestinians do despise Israel, Even with the hate filled text books, TV shows and educational outlets that celebrate and reward extremists as heros, I believe the magority of people want an end to the conflict.
    Just as Israeli want to live in Peace, I believe so do they.

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    It just strikes me as odd that fatha would accept israeli support. Seems to me like it would be like a party in america during the cold war accepting funds from the USSR.
    Not saying that israel=ussr. But that the avarage palestinian must lose trust for fatha if they get help from israel?

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    Quote Originally Posted by johan
    It just strikes me as odd that fatha would accept israeli support. Seems to me like it would be like a party in america during the cold war accepting funds from the USSR.
    Not saying that israel=ussr. But that the avarage palestinian must lose trust for fatha if they get help from israel?
    You have to take into account the poverty, corruption, and violence in Palestinian society, people on both sides are tired of conflict. And anybody who can bring changes to current status quo whether it be Palestinian or Israeli is taken seriously.

    It has worked before and it can work again. You only need look at Jordan, and Egypt who were at one time enemies, who were sworn to Israelis destruction. Today we enjoy political, economic, and even social friendship. I myself have traveled to Egypt to visit the pyramids twice.

    The problem at hand is without a question the extremist groups who work very hard to maintain the conflict. they are believers of such conviction that the conflict is in the name of Allah that they will gladly sacrifice every single Palestinian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by singern
    We give, and give, and still the rockets fall, kidnaped citizens are not returned, and the terrorists strike.


    I want final solution as much as anybody, but reciprocity is the key, and I just dont see any.
    does that include giving back settled land and letting Palestinians who are from Israel proper back in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mcpeepants
    does that include giving back settled land and letting Palestinians who are from Israel proper back in.
    Land for peace is and has been the model for all our peace deals,
    We gave the Sinai "which was also settled" back to egypt.
    Land was returned back to Jordan, and now we are dealing with the Palestinians, 100% of the Gaza strip has been given, and much of the wast bank. unfortunately for all the land we gave the PLO so far there is nothing to show for it....

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    Quote Originally Posted by mcpeepants
    does that include giving back settled land and letting Palestinians who are from Israel proper back in.
    In the deal Clinton brokered, Israel was giving everything up but the farm. Palestinians dont want peace, they want the destruction of Israel, period.

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    we've been on that topic since 2000, it's bull----, we have discussed it so many times on threads in this forum, barak/clinton never offered end to the occupation, they offered something similar to the israeli aphartied wall; this is covered in Carters new book, and lead negotiator yossi beilen wrote a book on the 2000/taba negotiations..and the 2002 saudi-beirut offeris on the table, and hamas has said they will cease fire if israel ends the occupation along 67 borders for '20 years' and that Abbas can negotiate a final settlement, and abbas is ready to resume negotiations where they left off, lets not split hairs here, the occupation is either going to be ended or negotiate a 1 state solution, either way you can't end the conflict w/o final status negotiations-the question is why do there negotiations never take place?

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    Ok, so everything the press released was wrong...sure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by roidattack
    Ok, so everything the press released was wrong...sure.
    Didnt you know that? The only reliable source for credible news is the Hamas spokesman Bin-Fartin..........

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    Quote Originally Posted by singern
    Land for peace is and has been the model for all our peace deals,
    We gave the Sinai "which was also settled" back to egypt.
    Land was returned back to Jordan, and now we are dealing with the Palestinians, 100% of the Gaza strip has been given, and much of the wast bank. unfortunately for all the land we gave the PLO so far there is nothing to show for it....
    Article 48 prohibits mass movement of people out of or into occupied territory:

    Individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to the territory of the Occupying Power or to that of any other country, occupied or not, are prohibited, regardless of their motive. ... The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.


    source: wikipedia

    Settling the Sinai is illegal by Geneva standards. So praising Israel for returning it back to Egypt is like praising someone who stole your bike and then gave it back.

    100% of the Gaza strip? Israel still controls Gaza's sea access, airspace, and border (along with Egypt). The "withdrawal" from Gaza was a pr move. Israel move it's settlers from harms way, push backed a demographic threat to Israel, and still controls the area.

    The PLO is definitely corrupt. We can agree on that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by roidattack
    In the deal Clinton brokered, Israel was giving everything up but the farm. Palestinians dont want peace, they want the destruction of Israel, period.
    What was so good about Clinton's deal in the Camp David Summit back in 2000?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mcpeepants
    Settling the Sinai is illegal by Geneva standards. So praising Israel for returning it back to Egypt is like praising someone who stole your bike and then gave it back.

    100% of the Gaza strip? Israel still controls Gaza's sea access, airspace, and border (along with Egypt). The "withdrawal" from Gaza was a pr move. Israel move it's settlers from harms way, push backed a demographic threat to Israel, and still controls the area.

    The PLO is definitely corrupt. We can agree on that.
    Take it in context.
    The issue at hand was the possibility of peace and the return of land taken in a defensive war.
    I offered examples of cases where both objectives were done successfully, and I offer the opinion that it can be done again with the Palestinians.

    As to control of Air and sea, Im sure even you can understand the obvious need for that. would you agree to give Al-qaida control over the US airspace?

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    Quote Originally Posted by singern
    Take it in context.
    The issue at hand was the possibility of peace and the return of land taken in a defensive war.
    I offered examples of cases where both objectives were done successfully, and I offer the opinion that it can be done again with the Palestinians.

    As to control of Air and sea, Im sure even you can understand the obvious need for that. would you agree to give Al-qaida control over the US airspace?
    But then you can't say that " 100% of the Gaza strip has been given" since Israel controls air, sea, and land access to Gaza. i don't see how the al qaida analogy applies to this situation. al qaida doesn't indigenous or have any territorial ambitions in the US. how do you expect Gaza to develop with Israel being able to open and close Gaza's border like a kitchen faucet?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mcpeepants
    But then you can't say that " 100% of the Gaza strip has been given" since Israel controls air, sea, and land access to Gaza. i don't see how the al qaida analogy applies to this situation. al qaida doesn't indigenous or have any territorial ambitions in the US. how do you expect Gaza to develop with Israel being able to open and close Gaza's border like a kitchen faucet?
    Again it is a catch 22 scenario
    How can we relax security if the terrorists are still active in seeking to strike. How can the Palestinians move forward if we control the borders.

    Every single time we give some control of border and checkpoints to the Palestinians we find weapons smuggling, terrorist infiltration, criminal activity, and an open escape rout for militants after they attack. This creates a reality of even when we want to disengage as we did in Gaza, we cannot do it completely. But the fact remains that not one Jew lives, works, or travels through Gaza.

    So yes it is an obstacle but you cannot ignore the need for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by singern
    Again it is a catch 22 scenario
    How can we relax security if the terrorists are still active in seeking to strike. How can the Palestinians move forward if we control the borders.

    Every single time we give some control of border and checkpoints to the Palestinians we find weapons smuggling, terrorist infiltration, criminal activity, and an open escape rout for militants after they attack. This creates a reality of even when we want to disengage as we did in Gaza, we cannot do it completely. But the fact remains that not one Jew lives, works, or travels through Gaza.

    So yes it is an obstacle but you cannot ignore the need for it.
    I'm not sure how most of the arms get into Gaza, but I suspect most of it is smuggled in from underground. I more open border would make it easier fish, send there produce to market, go to school, visit relatives etc. This would allow Gaza economy to grow and more people would be less dependent on the social services of groups like Hamas. If Gaza is flourishing, the people would put a stop to militants so they wouldn't risk damaging their economy and new way of life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mcpeepants
    I'm not sure how most of the arms get into Gaza, but I suspect most of it is smuggled in from underground. I more open border would make it easier fish, send there produce to market, go to school, visit relatives etc. This would allow Gaza economy to grow and more people would be less dependent on the social services of groups like Hamas. If Gaza is flourishing, the people would put a stop to militants so they wouldn't risk damaging their economy and new way of life.
    Agreed, but still a catch 22 which cannot be ignored....
    Ive said it before:
    If the terrorists lay down the weapons, there will be peace tomorrow.
    If the Israelis lay down the weapons, there will be no Jews tomorrow.

    From what I have seen in my years on this planet, it doesnt matter what side your on, that short statment rings true.

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    Quote Originally Posted by singern
    Agreed, but still a catch 22 which cannot be ignored....
    Ive said it before:
    If the terrorists lay down the weapons, there will be peace tomorrow.
    If the Israelis lay down the weapons, there will be no Jews tomorrow.

    From what I have seen in my years on this planet, it doesnt matter what side your on, that short statment rings true.
    I don't think you can simplify things like that. If Palestinians didn't fight, Israeli's would continue to settle the West Bank and build the wall in the West Bank and maybe still be in Gaza. There are Palestinians radicals that want to kill or deport all jews as well as Israeli radical who want to kill or deport all arabs.

    I think the integration of the two societies into one secular democratic state is the only way to solve it. It won't be easy but ending wounds and old prejudices doesn't come quick.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mcpeepants
    I don't think you can simplify things like that. If Palestinians didn't fight, Israeli's would continue to settle the West Bank and build the wall in the West Bank and maybe still be in Gaza. There are Palestinians radicals that want to kill or deport all jews as well as Israeli radical who want to kill or deport all arabs.

    I think the integration of the two societies into one secular democratic state is the only way to solve it. It won't be easy but ending wounds and old prejudices doesn't come quick.
    Thats not entirely correct,
    The Israeli government and the majority of the population has for many years wanted a complete separation from the Palestinians, as they are a serious drain on our utilities, resources, finances, and civil infrastructure. Not to forget the fact they want to kill us.

    Yes there certainly are right wing Jews who want to deport all arabs from Israel, but fortunately we are a democracy and such nonsense will never be taken seriously. In fact the worst extremist groups are illegal and there members judged in a court of law.

    We have a number of Arab parties in government and recently an Arab was made cabinet member.

    So you can see the difference between our societies is obvious and drastic.
    Last edited by singern; 01-24-2007 at 01:48 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by singern
    Thats not entirely correct,
    The Israeli government and the majority of the population has for many years wanted a complete separation from the Palestinians, as they are a serious drain on our utilities, resources, finances, and civil infrastructure. Not to forget the fact they want to kill us.

    Yes there certainly are right wing Jews who want to deport all arabs from Israel, but fortunately we are a democracy and such nonsense will never be taken seriously. In fact the worst extremist groups are illegal and there members judged in a court of law.

    We have a number of Arab parties in government and recently an Arab was made cabinet member.

    So you can see the difference between our societies is obvious and drastic.
    Never taken seriously. Avigdor Lieberman and his right wing party were elected to Israel's parliament and his coalition with Kadima is keeping Olmert's government up. Avigdor Lieberman has called for the deporting (nicer word for ethnic cleansing) arabs, called for the execution of arab ministers who met with the palestinian authority. His reward for his views is appointment as a Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Strategic Affairs (good position to ratching up support for bombing Iran). I think only one minister resigned over his appointment and many more voted for it. Makes me wonder what the Olmert views really are. At least I know where Lieberman stands.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mcpeepants
    Never taken seriously. Avigdor Lieberman and his right wing party were elected to Israel's parliament and his coalition with Kadima is keeping Olmert's government up. Avigdor Lieberman has called for the deporting (nicer word for ethnic cleansing) arabs, called for the execution of arab ministers who met with the palestinian authority. His reward for his views is appointment as a Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Strategic Affairs (good position to ratching up support for bombing Iran). I think only one minister resigned over his appointment and many more voted for it. Makes me wonder what the Olmert views really are. At least I know where Lieberman stands.
    Yes we know where Lieberman stands, but thats democracy.
    We also know where senator Mertha stands, but will the US cut and run?
    We know where senator Sam Brownback stands, but I dont think the US will do away with Gays and imigration.
    We know where senator Spencer Abraham stands but the US is not likely to become a Muslim state.
    I could go on for pages, this is democracy, everyone has a voice.
    Last edited by singern; 01-26-2007 at 12:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by singern
    Yes we know where Lieberman stands, but thats democracy.
    We also know where senator Mertha stands, but will the US cut and run?
    We know where senator Sam Brownback stands, but I dont think the US will do away with Gays and imigration.
    We know where senator Spencer Abraham stands but the US is not likely to become a Muslim state.
    I could go on for pages, this is democracy, everyone has a voice.
    Representive Murtha wants wants to "redeploy" the troops elsewhere, whatever that's suppose to mean. You give him to much credit by saying he wants to cut and run. The only politicians I've heard say lets cut the war funding now is Dennis Kucinich. Murtha will probably vote for the next funding bill as will must congressman.

    Senator Brownback supported the McCain-Kennedy bill that would have given amnesty to illegal alliens. That sounds more like a corportists type that likes cheap labor, like Bush, than someone who wants to deport them. Rep. Tom Tancredo blasted Brownback for supporting the bill. Brownback doesn't seems to like gay people but I haven't heard him say lets deport them to Cananda or something.

    Former Senator Spencer Abraham is a christian not a muslim so your statement doesn't make sense. The US only just elected a muslim congressman and he more liberal than most of the Congress.

    These politicians have their views but there not the same level as Lieberman's call for ethnic cleansing of arabs or killing arab politicians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mcpeepants

    These politicians have their views but there not the same level as Lieberman's call for ethnic cleansing of arabs or killing arab politicians.
    You give Lieberman way to much credit, and the Israeli people way to little......The Israeli Knesset has a multitude of parties, and ideologies, ranging from Far left, far right, Green party (they like marijuana) , communists, Arabs, and there are members who would vote to cleans the country of people like Lieberman.

    Dont get me wrong Im not defending Lieberman, I think hes a nutbag no different from ahmenajad, or Luis farakahn. I am however defending his right to be one.
    Last edited by singern; 01-26-2007 at 08:55 PM.

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    If the 'terrorists' lay down their weapons there would be peace and continued repression, they pretty much layed down there weapons fron 1967-1986 and what they got were settlements that made their situation worse and worse until the 1st intefada. Why were the palestinians punished with settlements back when they wern't 'terrorists'?

    Quote Originally Posted by singern
    Agreed, but still a catch 22 which cannot be ignored....
    Ive said it before:
    If the terrorists lay down the weapons, there will be peace tomorrow.
    If the Israelis lay down the weapons, there will be no Jews tomorrow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by singern
    You give Lieberman way to much credit, and the Israeli people way to little......The Israeli Knesset has a multitude of parties, and ideologies, ranging from Far left, far right, Green party (they like marijuana) , communists, Arabs, and there are members who would vote to cleans the country of people like Lieberman.

    Dont get me wrong Im not defending Lieberman, I think hes a nutbag no different from ahmenajad, or Luis farakahn. I am however defending his right to be one.
    do you defend Ahmadinejad's right to speak or holocaust deniers?

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