If we leave Iraq, do we lose for good?

[Logan13]

Clearly Bush has been one of "the worst" President's the United States has ever had... Just look at his approval rating

So with that same logic, would you say that today's Congress is the worst in history as well since they have the LOWEST approval rating in history? Which, BTW, is lower than Bush's..........

[Mogamedogz]

Hey Logan... see post #18. Still waiting for an answer....

[LawMan018]

So with that same logic, would you say that today's Congress is the worst in history as well since they have the LOWEST approval rating in history? Which, BTW, is lower than Bush's..........

Well they were Republican so I wouldn't doubt it, but now that the Democrats are in I'm sure it's going up quite nicely

[BgMc31]

So with that same logic, would you say that today's Congress is the worst in history as well since they have the LOWEST approval rating in history? Which, BTW, is lower than Bush's..........

Logan everytime someone brings up Bush's approval rating you resort to mentioning Congress' even when the topic has nothing to do with Congress. This is getting old and you know it. Stick to the topic brotha!

[Hoggage_54]

"Let's all forget this word "insurgency". It's one of the most misleading words of all. Insurgency assumes that we had gone to Iraq and won the war and a group of disgruntled people began to operate against us and we then had to do counter-action against them. That would be an insurgency. We are fighting the people we started the war against. We are fighting the Ba'athists plus nationalists. We are fighting the very people that started - they only choose to fight in different time spans than we want them to, in different places. We took Baghdad easily. It wasn't because be won. We took Baghdad because they pulled back and let us take it and decided to fight a war that had been pre-planned that they're very actively fighting."

-- Seymour Hersh, Pulitzer-prize winning investigative reporter, "We've Been Taken Over By a Cult" Jan. 26, 2005

[Logan13]

Logan everytime someone brings up Bush's approval rating you resort to mentioning Congress' even when the topic has nothing to do with Congress. This is getting old and you know it. Stick to the topic brotha!

I am sick of you and others bringing up Bush's rating, but not Congress'. Congress' is the lowest in history, and yet you speak nothing of it. What's getting old are the obtuse statements and mindsets....... News flash for you. The dems will not take the Whitehouse in 2008, they do not have anyone who can win outside of the democratic nomination. Anyone who thinks that they do is living a fairy tale. What does this mean? It means that I have to hear you whine and wring your hands for another 4 years, at least.

[Logan13]

"Let's all forget this word "insurgency". It's one of the most misleading words of all. Insurgency assumes that we had gone to Iraq and won the war and a group of disgruntled people began to operate against us and we then had to do counter-action against them. That would be an insurgency. We are fighting the people we started the war against. We are fighting the Ba'athists plus nationalists. We are fighting the very people that started - they only choose to fight in different time spans than we want them to, in different places. We took Baghdad easily. It wasn't because be won. We took Baghdad because they pulled back and let us take it and decided to fight a war that had been pre-planned that they're very actively fighting."

-- Seymour Hersh, Pulitzer-prize winning investigative reporter, "We've Been Taken Over By a Cult" Jan. 26, 2005

You quote Seymour Hersh and expect us to be in awe? Come on.......

[Logan13]

Well they were Republican so I wouldn't doubt it, but now that the Democrats are in I'm sure it's going up quite nicely

Captain Obvious.......This approval rating is for the current Congress.......Anything else that you need me to explain?

[Logan13]

Simple yes or no...

DID DICK CHENEY AND HIS FRIENDS PROFIT FROM "NO BID" CONTRACTS AWARDED DURING (and as a direct result of) THE WAR IN IRAQ??

if your answer is "NO"... than it is YOU my friend who sounds "absurd" (and dillusional ).

Is Cheney employed by them? Haliburton did profit. Can you point to any other US company that does what they do? I sell to the US gov't as well on a yearly contract. One item in particular is patented and is therefore unavailable elsewhere. Therefore, I win this every year under a "No-Bid contract". Can you tell me what is wrong with that? You speak of things for which you do not understand. Just because you are ignorant of the facts, does not make it wrong, it just makes you ignorant............

[Army God]

Logan, do you realize why you're the only conservative in this thread? Because anyone who says anything pro-war or conservative gets banned and what they say gets erased. It happened to a buddy of mine.

[Logan13]

What is obvious from many of your posts in this thread is that many of you simply do not know, what you just do not know. The world is more complex than what you might read on the dailykos. Ignorance may be bliss, but it sure as hell doesn't give you the full perspective needed to make the irrational comments that many seem inclined to give in here. You have two choices: Either put the time into learning for yourself so that you can make informed comments, or just keep letting the blogger trolls form your opinions for you.

[BgMc31]

What is obvious from many of your posts in this thread is that many of you simply do not know, what you just do not know. The world is more complex than what you might read on the dailykos. Ignorance may be bliss, but it sure as hell doesn't give you the full perspective needed to make the irrational comments that many seem inclined to give in here. You have two choices: Either put the time into learning for yourself so that you can make informed comments, or just keep letting the blogger trolls form your opinions for you.

Just because we don't agree with your point of view Logan doesn't make us ignorance. Ignorance is believing there is only one point of view on any subject.

As far as you bringing up Congress' approval rating constantly, you tend to bring it up when it has nothing to do with the subject. Start a thread on Congress' approval rating or refer to one when no one says anything about it. Bush's approval rating has been declining way before this congress took office. That is something you don't speak of. Why is that? His own party members are distancing themselves from him. You have a tendency not to respond to those facts, you just continue to whine about Bush bashing and claim congress' approval rating is lower than Bush's...wah, wah, wah! Stick to the subject!

Where do you base your argument that a Dem can't win the White House? That is simply your opinion and stating it with emotion still doesn't make it fact it is still your opinion because most polls indicate otherwise.

As far as the comment made by Army of God, stop whining. Conservatives don't get banned, intolerant and offensive people get banned. If being a conservative means being intolerant and offensive than you can keep that.

[LawMan018]

What is obvious from many of your posts in this thread is that many of you simply do not know, what you just do not know. The world is more complex than what you might read on the dailykos. Ignorance may be bliss, but it sure as hell doesn't give you the full perspective needed to make the irrational comments that many seem inclined to give in here. You have two choices: Either put the time into learning for yourself so that you can make informed comments, or just keep letting the blogger trolls form your opinions for you.

Logan we aren't going to get attacked more then we have been since the country was born... Sending troops to foreign countries for bullshit reasons (Iraq was never linked to 9/11, nor were there WMD's... Bush just wanted revenge for his daddy) is only going to increase the hate towards America, and not having a thorough plan what to do after our so called "victory" was just stupid on Bush's part... Bush has clearly gone way beyond FUBAR on leading our country and instead has dug us a big deep hole that the next President is going to have to get us out of! Hopefully we'll get another Clinton in to fix things up... After all, the only thing you Conservatives have on Clinton is his little act with you know who... And so what if he lied about it? I have no right to know about his personal life, and it in no way affected his leadership skills which were quite high up on the par, not to mention how great of a speaker he was as opposed to the current world-fumbling President we currently have. So if you're going to say Bush is better then Clinton, compare them first... We actually had a surplus of money, and weren't 25 trillion in debt, most of the world liked us, he was a great speaker, and I believe one of the greatest President's of all time! Oh speaking of Bush, I found a very interesting image of him...

[Hoggage_54]

We need more Republicans... The nightly jokes on The Daily Show with John Stewart and The Colbert Report are too funny.

[Logan13]

We need more Republicans... The nightly jokes on The Daily Show with John Stewart and The Colbert Report are too funny.

That proves my point, you get your "news" from the comedy channel. Now that is funny!

[m8intl]

On CNN they had a few terrorists experts and whatnots. And they were saying al-queda is stronger now then before we went into Iraq. We have made it worse.

+1 Iraq is now were terrorists go to train. The war has made the region more unstable.

[rock357]

We were complete fools to hang Saddam's a**. he was the best thing we could have hoped for in that stankhole of a country. He kept 3 groups of people who hate each other more than Dem's and Republicans together and made damn sure no fundementalist said a f'ing peep in Iraq while he was around. There was some stability in the country when that murdering nut was around instead of a breeding ground for a HUGE regoinal war. And please don't give me all that crap about "he killed innocent people." please we supplied the chemical weapons and know how to gas the Kurds and the Irainians. He was certainly no worse than some of the murders we've supported in Asia and South America. Big Mistake, and now were paying the price in our son's and daughters blood, not to mention our treasure. Which by the way was exactly what Osama wanted us to do. Didn't he say that we would bleed ourselves to death by attacking one of "his" enemys. Btw, did we ever catch that dude, or did we really attempt it.

[rock357]

That proves my point, you get your "news" from the comedy channel. Now that is funny!

I hope you don't get yours from Fox News???????

Make no mistake about it. We will leave Iraq with our head hung in shame just like Vietnam, and there will be even more serious consequences than 9-11from this.

[Hoggage_54]

Btw, did we ever catch that dude, or did we really attempt it.

There was an opportunity to capture/kill some senior Al Qaeda chiefs, but Donald Rumsfeld pulled the plug on it because he believed it would put too many American lives at risk.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/07/....0708intel.php

[Information]

Logan, do you realize why you're the only conservative in this thread? Because anyone who says anything pro-war or conservative gets banned and what they say gets erased. It happened to a buddy of mine.

Linksys

Once banned, always banned.

[Joemeek]

Perhaps it doesn't help when you're all fighting amongst one another about Bush in America rather than trying to stand together about terrorism, we live in new times fighting these fanatics and don't think that if war never happened you'd all live a happy ever after life and it would never affect you or generations to come and If there was a pull out it would only strengthen these fanatics even more.
I did have my doubts about going to war there but it's done now and people with the luxury of criticizing the war from the comfort of their armchair say's a lot to me about the message you're sending out to these guy's over there giving their lifes for for their country's. It just makes it sound like they're fighting for nothing.
Just my oppinion.

[m8intl]

It just makes it sound like they're fighting for nothing.
Just my oppinion.

I'm not a soldier, but the soldiers with whom I've spoke, have flat out said they feel like they're fighting for nothing and the whole situation is bull****.

[Serotonin]

Terrorism is never going to be stopped by invading a country. First, it costs way too damn much. Look at what this catastrophe of a "liberation" has done to our deficit.

The people we're fighting are uneducated, religious zealots. (ok some may be educated but lack insight) Now whether these terror groups are actually fueled by zeal or some super villain sitting in his secret lair... I don't know, but force isn't the answer to taking these people out. It's pretty much like kicking the hornets nest.

What we need to do is drop some science books in these fundamental Islamic countries instead of bombs. Maybe they'll learn something.

[BgMc31]

I did have my doubts about going to war there but it's done now and people with the luxury of criticizing the war from the comfort of their armchair say's a lot to me about the message you're sending out to these guy's over there giving their lifes for for their country's. It just makes it sound like they're fighting for nothing.
Just my oppinion.

So are you saying everyone should sit by and be quiet just so we can make the soldiers feel like they are fighting for something?

Soldiers fight, that's what they do, that's there jobs and they are ok with what they signed up for. Soldiers don't normally question orders and right or wrong they carry them out. As a son of a soldier I respect what the troops are doing, as does everyone else. Let's stop trying to make it seem like everyone who is against the war are against the troops. This war isn't the fault of the soldiers, they are just following orders. This administration has screwed the pooch on this. THIS ISN'T ABOUT THE SOLDIERS, SO STOP TRYING TO MAKE IT SO!

[Joemeek]

THIS ISN'T ABOUT THE SOLDIERS, SO STOP TRYING TO MAKE IT SO!

I'm not trying too, i'm from the UK and behind "all" the soldiers out there. The difference between you and me is that i'm taking a positive from the situation by saying they are fighting for something good (war on terrorism)unlike your negative demoralizing view of (they shouldn't be there) but they are, so calm down and stop shouting, it's just my take.

What we need to do is drop some science books in these fundamental Islamic countries instead of bombs. Maybe they'll learn something.

I agree, but you can't teach people who don't want to learn. This stuff is brainwashed into them.

[rock357]

Fella's we all support our soldiers there's no doubt about that. Whether you support the war or are the most liberal hippy on the board I'm sure you don't want our soldiers to die.

The problem isn't our military, they are the best war fighters in the world. The problem is our civilian leadership has failed them and us. Both Dem's and Rep's. We need to make them accountable for their actions. Until then we'll always be dealing with sh*t like Iraq's made up WMD and the made up "Gulf of Tonkin" incident. Straight from LBJ's mouth, completely made up.

[Flagg]

What I find bullshit about this war now is Bush's reason why he is still there in Iraq. Its to ensure that Al Queda dont set up shop like they did in Afghanastan. AND THEN WHAT??

They are everywhere. I mean what is he gonna do, invade EVERY COUNTRY that has a Terrorist Cell in it.

[Joemeek]

YOU ARE WRONG, does the US still have bases in Vietnam?


Vietnam = rice patties

Iraq = oil

Any questions?

Well if that's what you believe, then surely Americans must shoulder some blame then ?
Being that America produces something like 7-9% of the worlds oil yet you consume around 40%.

[gixxerboy1]

Just my opinion.

Nobody like war and if if we are winning or win people are going to die and towns destroyed. its going to upset people. I honestly think there is way to much media coverage and journalist on the front lines embedded with the troops. Whats the reason for this? Get the news station rating but how does help our military or troops? Like i said even if we have an easy victory someone is still going to get hurt and people are going to be upset.

Can you imagine how WWII would have been different if there was live coverage of the war? People would have freaked on what was going on over there.

We are better off not knowing some things. I say if we are going to stay pull out the media and just f'n win the war.

[m8intl]

Just my opinion.
I say if we are going to stay pull out the media and just f'n win the war.

How do you win against an enemy that isn't afraid to die, has no regard for human life, and truly believes everything we stand for is evil? Unless we turn the whole region into a parking lot, I don't see how it's possible to win.

[Mogamedogz]

Is Cheney employed by them? Haliburton did profit. Can you point to any other US company that does what they do? I sell to the US gov't as well on a yearly contract. One item in particular is patented and is therefore unavailable elsewhere. Therefore, I win this every year under a "No-Bid contract". Can you tell me what is wrong with that? You speak of things for which you do not understand. Just because you are ignorant of the facts, does not make it wrong, it just makes you ignorant............

You call me ignorant... I call you Delusional... works for me. In the end, you're just spinning your wheels trying to create a dust cloud of BS. I could pick apart your weak attempt to discredit my understanding of what "no bid" contracts are, but it would be pointless. Obviously you are too brainwashed to ACCEPT what they have done. You actually compared adultery to initiating an "unprovoked" invasion of a country... how can anything you say after that be taken as credible? Sane people don't think like that. Fanatical nut-job's do.

BTW: The answer is a BOOMING "YES". Dicksmoker Cheney and his friends made more money as a result of this war than anyone. I guess by their calculations (appox) 4,000 US lives (and counting) were well worth it. I wonder how many of them have kids over their fighting to CREATE MORE...err... "Stop" ()Terrorism.

[BgMc31]

[QUOTE=Joemeek]I'm not trying too, i'm from the UK and behind "all" the soldiers out there. The difference between you and me is that i'm taking a positive from the situation by saying they are fighting for something good (war on terrorism)unlike your negative demoralizing view of (they shouldn't be there) but they are, so calm down and stop shouting, it's just my take.



You are not taking a positive view, you are taking a disillusioned view. Iraq has nothing to do with the war on terror. Al Qaeda in Iraq is there because we are there, Al Qaeda had no Iraq affiliation before the war. Finally Al Qaeda is responsible for 15% of the violence in Iraq, the vast majority is by insurgents fighting what they feel is an occupying force. But if believing what you believe helps you cope with this f'ed up situation then so be it. Oh one other question Joemeek, how's the idea of us fighting them over there so we won't have to fight them on our own soil workin out for the Uk? It's been proven that you all are definately not safer.

I wish people would realize we aren't trying to bring democracy to that country. We are trying to have an ally in that area. Look what happened in Palistine. When they had free elections the voted for a Islamic militant group, so we cut off funding and support. The same would happen in Iraq and we will do the same. You cannot impose a western style democracy in countries controlled by religious fanatics. There religion doesn't allow it. Iraq is a mess, there is no 'victory' in terms of military action. We are spiraling downward and need a completely new course. I think the surge should have been directed towards Afganistan and Pakistan. That is where the true terror threat is.

[gixxerboy1]

How do you win against an enemy that isn't afraid to die, has no regard for human life, and truly believes everything we stand for is evil? Unless we turn the whole region into a parking lot, I don't see how it's possible to win.

I do agree with you. I guess i mean more about just securing Iraq. We could i believe do that.

[m8intl]

I do agree with you. I guess i mean more about just securing Iraq. We could i believe do that.

I agree too. If we leave them up sh1t's creek, we'll create an evironment that fosters affinity for the terrorist agenda. They'll likely believe we screwed them for oil, and more will undoubtedly join the cause. We should secure the region and get out, but it's impossible to win imo.

[Joemeek]

Just my opinion. Can you imagine how WWII would have been different if there was live coverage of the war? People would have freaked on what was going on over there.

They did..well kinda, they never had the technology for live footage then but they used to bring up the Pathe news in cinemas before the film to show footage of the war and i believe they showed film footage in cinemas during WW1 as well.

We are better off not knowing some things. I say if we are going to stay pull out the media and just f'n win the war.

This i agree with but will never happen unfortunately.

[gixxerboy1]

They did..well kinda, they never had the technology for live footage then but they used to bring up the Pathe news in cinemas before the film to show footage of the war and i believe they showed film footage in cinemas during WW1 as well.

I didn't know that. I'm assuming it was more of a propaganda hooray troops kind of footage. I remember seeing old black and white clips of war "commercials".

I'm assuming it wasn't coverage like today were the yare reporting how may deaths to us soldiers every minute

[Joemeek]

I'm assuming it wasn't coverage like today were the yare reporting how may deaths to us soldiers every minute

I believe they showed clips from the Somme in WW1 about what was really happening and people dying, it just brought home the real truth about war, people crying in the cinemas as well.
People at home were very much in high spirits and lots of people were signing up for war, not really knowing what they were getting into.
They stopped putting groups of friends together as well when they signed up cause they were watching each other getting killed and these were people who knew each other all their lifes. So imagine going into war with all your best mates and watching them all getting their heads blown off in front of you cause this was what was happening .

[UberSteroids]

All this war and 9/11 is all BS.
Took people some time to gather all the evidence and rethink everything that happened about 9/11 attack. Everyone was shocked back than, so obviously everyone believed it. I've seen some crazy documentary videos about 9/11, hope everyone did.
So many poor people and soliders had to die in this f#$%ing nonsense for nothing.
Trashing our own country and killing our own people, next using this as a reason to bomb the F out of their country then later drop crates with food and supplies. Destroying the sh!t out of the Iraq then trying to rebuild the whole thing and get the country going. What the F#$@ is this?! Why don't we get the F back to our home country and protect it and spend all the money to focus on rebuilding our economy!? It is all too late now, too much time passed, too much sh!t happened, too many people died. Well at least we could save all these poor soldiers that are stuck in this sh!t.
This is so messed up that I almost don't believe it is real.

[Logan13]

What I find bullshit about this war now is Bush's reason why he is still there in Iraq. Its to ensure that Al Queda dont set up shop like they did in Afghanastan. AND THEN WHAT??

They are everywhere. I mean what is he gonna do, invade EVERY COUNTRY that has a Terrorist Cell in it.

What would you have us do, GIVE UP?

[Logan13]

[QUOTE=BgMc31]

I'm not trying too, i'm from the UK and behind "all" the soldiers out there. The difference between you and me is that i'm taking a positive from the situation by saying they are fighting for something good (war on terrorism)unlike your negative demoralizing view of (they shouldn't be there) but they are, so calm down and stop shouting, it's just my take.



You are not taking a positive view, you are taking a disillusioned view. Iraq has nothing to do with the war on terror. Al Qaeda in Iraq is there because we are there, Al Qaeda had no Iraq affiliation before the war. Finally Al Qaeda is responsible for 15% of the violence in Iraq, the vast majority is by insurgents fighting what they feel is an occupying force. But if believing what you believe helps you cope with this f'ed up situation then so be it. Oh one other question Joemeek, how's the idea of us fighting them over there so we won't have to fight them on our own soil workin out for the Uk? It's been proven that you all are definately not safer.

I wish people would realize we aren't trying to bring democracy to that country. We are trying to have an ally in that area. Look what happened in Palistine. When they had free elections the voted for a Islamic militant group, so we cut off funding and support. The same would happen in Iraq and we will do the same. You cannot impose a western style democracy in countries controlled by religious fanatics. There religion doesn't allow it. Iraq is a mess, there is no 'victory' in terms of military action. We are spiraling downward and need a completely new course. I think the surge should have been directed towards Afganistan and Pakistan. That is where the true terror threat is.

Is Al Queada in Iraq now?