Dutch health system rated best, U.S. worst - polls

[Prada]

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N07438178.htm

07 Jul 2008 20:21:57 GMT
Source: Reuters
NEW YORK, July 7 (Reuters Life! ) - Americans are the least satisfied with their health care system, while the Dutch system is rated the best, according to new research.

Polls about health care in 10 developed countries by Harris Interactive revealed a range of opinions about what works and what doesn't.

In the United States a third of Americans believe their system needs to be completely overhauled, while a further 50 percent feel that fundamental changes need to be made.

"Given that all countries other than the U.S. have universal health care systems in place, this may invite questions on why the U.S. remains the only wealthy, industrialized country without such a system," Harris president George Terhanian told Reuters.

In the Netherlands, where health care is financed by mandatory health insurance, 42 percent of people think their system works well and needs only minor changes.

And only nine percent of the Dutch think a complete overhaul is necessary, compared to 12 percent in Canada and Spain, 15 percent Britain and France, 17 percent in Germany and New Zealand, 18 percent in Australia and 20 percent in Italy, according to the polls of more than 1,000 people in each country.

The U.S. model, widely criticized on its combination of private insurance and publicly-funded programs, spends more on health care than any other nation worldwide but ranks low on overall quality of care, according to the World Health Organization (WHO).

France's health system, based on compulsory national insurance, was ranked best in the world by the WHO in 2000, while Britain's National Health Service, the world's largest publicly funded system, was in 18th place.

The Harris comparison of the national surveys showed that 70 percent of the French and 59 percent of Britons think their health services are "the envy of the world."

Nearly 70 percent of Germans, a majority of whom receive coverage from state-funded insurance plans, feel that access to healthcare depends on a patient's ability to pay for it.

But at least 47 percent of those surveyed in all countries think there are some good things in their systems but they need to be improved.

"It is by no means clear through these surveys that universal health care systems represent the so-called magic pill," said Terhanian.

(Reporting by Claire Sibonney; Editing by Patricia Reaney) ([email protected]; Reuters Messaging: [email protected]; +416-941-8142)

[Kratos]

American's are super bitchy about heathcare and wouldn't know a good system from a bad one. In our system the money coming out of pocket is more visable, and that makes people angry.

[Kratos]

Not saying our system is perfect, but the study is flawed for that reason. A lot of the people who complain of being uninsured are too lazy to find out what assistance programs they qualify for. Some people can afford it, but wing it. I think our healthcare system suffers from a bit of overuse and abuse also.

[SMCengineer]

^^the study isn't flawed. It's another biased attempt from the Left to persuade Americans that Universal Healthcare is the way to go when in reality, it's not. You can't quote the WHO and expect to have credibility in your article.

[BgMc31]

^^^Why aren't they credible? Please provide statistics stating otherwise. And if you did what would stop someone from discrediting your statistics the same way you've discredited the WHO.

If it works in many other countries, I don't understand why it won't work here. There is no argument against the argument that our current situation seriously flawed. I understand your strict constitutionalist position doesn't allow you to believe that healthcare is a constitutional right, but uninsured are a drain on our economy.

[SMCengineer]

^^^Why aren't they credible? Please provide statistics stating otherwise.

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=3695
www.cato.org/pubs/bp/bp101.pdf

To be sure, the Cato Institute is a libertarian leaning organization, but it presents the otherside of the arguement and the problems with all the so called "rankings" of Healthcare systems in other countries.

And if you did what would stop someone from discrediting your statistics the same way you've discredited the WHO.

Absolutely nothing except an assesment of all the sources and information presented. After that, you make your own decision based on what you know to be true. When an organization has such a political agenda and bias towards statism and promotes something as "facts," which it isn't, I have a problem with that and can't take them seriously.

If it works in many other countries, I don't understand why it won't work here.

It doesn't work that well in other countries like the media, major pharmaceutical, and the healthcare industry would have you believe. You have to understand that they want Universal Healthcare in America. It's a gold mine for the entire Healthcare industry. So while universal Healthcare might be a little easier to afford (not taking into account the tax system) than our current system, which is royally fvcked up, it's far from working efficiently or even well.

There is no argument against the argument that our current situation seriously flawed. I understand your strict constitutionalist position doesn't allow you to believe that healthcare is a constitutional right, but uninsured are a drain on our economy.

You're absolutely right, but for the wrong reasons. Our system is seriously messed up and way to expensive, but it's from too much government intervention in the early 70's that caused our current situation. And it was in no small part due to liberals who pushed for the HMO act of 1973 and the Erisa act of 1974. So now that we're seeing the unintended consequences that government intervention has on the free market (there's always unintended consequences with government intervention) those same liberals are calling for more goverment intervention to "fix" the problem. I guess one mistake wasn't enough? Please remember, the politicians who act like they care for the "common good" and are working for you are really bought and sold by the major pharmaceutical companies and healthcare lobbyists.

[spywizard]

so what was the question??

"are you satisfied with your current health care"

I'd expect if i paid 54% taxes i'd better get good health care..

but then again.. what do they have to compare it to??

[BgMc31]

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=3695
www.cato.org/pubs/bp/bp101.pdf

To be sure, the Cato Institute is a libertarian leaning organization, but it presents the otherside of the arguement and the problems with all the so called "rankings" of Healthcare systems in other countries.



Absolutely nothing except an assesment of all the sources and information presented. After that, you make your own decision based on what you know to be true. When an organization has such a political agenda and bias towards statism and promotes something as "facts," which it isn't, I have a problem with that and can't take them seriously.



It doesn't work that well in other countries like the media, major pharmaceutical, and the healthcare industry would have you believe. You have to understand that they want Universal Healthcare in America. It's a gold mine for the entire Healthcare industry. So while universal Healthcare might be a little easier to afford (not taking into account the tax system) than our current system, which is royally fvcked up, it's far from working efficiently or even well.



You're absolutely right, but for the wrong reasons. Our system is seriously messed up and way to expensive, but it's from too much government intervention in the early 70's that caused our current situation. And it was in no small part due to liberals who pushed for the HMO act of 1973 and the Erisa act of 1974. So now that we're seeing the unintended consequences that government intervention has on the free market (there's always unintended consequences with government intervention) those same liberals are calling for more goverment intervention to "fix" the problem. I guess one mistake wasn't enough? Please remember, the politicians who act like they care for the "common good" and are working for you are really bought and sold by the major pharmaceutical companies and healthcare lobbyists.

Not saying I completely agree with your view of universal healthcare. I think its necessary and the duty of wealthy nations to ensure the well being of all their citizens. But Blome I appreciate your response and understand your point of view. Thanks!

[g0dsend]

Not really sure were I heard it, but I heard if a universal healthcare system gets put in line, you cant choose your doctor? Is that true?

I also heard that the wait for a minor health problem could take up to 6 months for an appointment, not sure where I heard it but If someone can confirm this or debunk it would be great. Im ignorant on this issue....Thanks!

[MuscleScience]

If our health care system is so broke, then why are the worlds best doctors moving from overseas to practice in the US. Also why is the vast majority of new medical research performed here in the US. Ask the British about the new brain drain their medical system is suffering. Also the study looks at developed nations. One thing that the study cant account for is in the US we have a very large immigrant population vs the rest of the worlds developed nations. Often these immigrants do not have access to health care from work and rely on government assistance. Which government run health agencies are overwhelmed and underfunded.

[BgMc31]

If our health care system is so broke, then why are the worlds best doctors moving from overseas to practice in the US. Also why is the vast majority of new medical research performed here in the US. Ask the British about the new brain drain their medical system is suffering. Also the study looks at developed nations. One thing that the study cant account for is in the US we have a very large immigrant population vs the rest of the worlds developed nations. Often these immigrants do not have access to health care from work and rely on government assistance. Which government run health agencies are overwhelmed and underfunded.

The answer to your 1st question is money! That's the simple truth. Because our medical system isn't socialized doctors are paid huge because of untapped revenue from pharmaceutical and insurance companies. Research is done in other countries as well but our victorian standards don't allow for a lot of the research to be recognized here in the states but are recognized elsewhere around the world.

[MuscleScience]

The answer to your 1st question is money! That's the simple truth. Because our medical system isn't socialized doctors are paid huge because of untapped revenue from pharmaceutical and insurance companies. Research is done in other countries as well but our victorian standards don't allow for a lot of the research to be recognized here in the states but are recognized elsewhere around the world.

Yes money but wouldnt a measure of a good system be having the very best skilled professionals. As far as research goes, One reason we have very good research is the amount of money the government puts back into research. Until recently I was involved in biomedical research. The amount of money and relative ease that a skilled research can obtain from varies government health organizations facilitates good research. Other socialized medicine nations spend their capital on maintaining the health care system and have few dollars left over for research relatively speaking.

However China and India are producing more research than Europe and producing some pretty solid stuff. I cant tell you how many papers in the last two years I have read that had Chinese authors.

To say that the US doesnt accept other countries research is ignorant of the amount of published literature from none Western researchers out there in all fields of science that are in American/Western journals.

[thegodfather]

I'm quite happy with the salaries of doctors presently, thank you very much. What incentive do I have to dedicate at least 8 years of my life to schooling, and an additional 4-7 years of training, getting paid shit, and working shit hours, if there is not a huge pay off at the end of the tunnel? Those 250-500k salaries are COMPLETELY justified and completely commensurate with the amount of training and dedication it takes to become a physician. So as a student who will be taking the MCATs after next year, leave the F'ing salaries alone, or else!

[MuscleScience]

I'm quite happy with the salaries of doctors presently, thank you very much. What incentive do I have to dedicate at least 8 years of my life to schooling, and an additional 4-7 years of training, getting paid shit, and working shit hours, if there is not a huge pay off at the end of the tunnel? Those 250-500k salaries are COMPLETELY justified and completely commensurate with the amount of training and dedication it takes to become a physician. So as a student who will be taking the MCATs after next year, leave the F'ing salaries alone, or else!

100% agree

[Prada]

If our health care system is so broke, then why are the worlds best doctors moving from overseas to practice in the US. Also why is the vast majority of new medical research performed here in the US. Ask the British about the new brain drain their medical system is suffering. Also the study looks at developed nations. One thing that the study cant account for is in the US we have a very large immigrant population vs the rest of the worlds developed nations. Often these immigrants do not have access to health care from work and rely on government assistance. Which government run health agencies are overwhelmed and underfunded.

Its simple as aforementioned, it all about the salary.

[Fat Guy]

Universal Healthcare is the Way to GO!

Everyone else is just plain WRONG!

Go Canada, England, Germany, France Holland and the many other countries that know how to do health care.

My challenge for all you nonbelievers of a universal healthcare system is to talk to people from these countries and other countries that have a universal health care system and ask them what they think about their healthcare system and would they trade it for the U.S. system.

Have them post there thoughts here…

This is an international forum and I bet you won’t find too many on this board that come from universal health care system to trade it for the U.S. system of greedy HMO’s.

It is usually the guys from the U.S. who hasn’t lived any other place and is right wing or hardcore constitutionalist that lay claim that the U.S. system is superior to most but that is just plain egocentric narrow B.S. that stems from naivety or a lack of understanding.

Universal Health Care is the Way to GO!

[Fat Guy]

Its simple as aforementioned, it all about the salary.

Not everyone is a money whore. Many people do things because it’s just the right thing to do…. I spend countless hours at the gym and school and it’s not because I get paid to do what I do. It’s because I have an intrinsic motivation for achievement and learning….

As a matter of fact I am quite the opposite when it comes to money in that I am highly qualified to do many things that would make me rich but I choose to do what I want to do and it does not involve chasing the almighty dollar…. I am happy with my life and would not change it for anything.

[BgMc31]

I'm quite happy with the salaries of doctors presently, thank you very much. What incentive do I have to dedicate at least 8 years of my life to schooling, and an additional 4-7 years of training, getting paid shit, and working shit hours, if there is not a huge pay off at the end of the tunnel? Those 250-500k salaries are COMPLETELY justified and completely commensurate with the amount of training and dedication it takes to become a physician. So as a student who will be taking the MCATs after next year, leave the F'ing salaries alone, or else!

Or else what? You seriously need to relax! No one is knocking the salaries docs make. As a matter of fact, I'm all for any profession making as much money as someone is willing to pay them. As a former professional football player, I heard the argument of ridiculously high wages my whole career. Muscle Science asked a question as to why doctors flock to the states and I merely gave my take on it. Settle down! No need to issue idol threats!

[eliteforce]

American HMO's are fking useless, I had a friend who had this problem with his jaw, a decayed tooth had apparently caused a bone malignancy in his jaw that caused alot of pain, they would give him the run around endlessly while he was in pain; anything to get out of doing the surgery because all they cared about was saving/making money.. by sending him to one 'specialist' after another-they would stick him with co-payments and it would cost them nothing-because just an office visit doesn't cost them anything- but the necessary surgery would..thats how the HMO scam works when he complained one of the doctors suggested that he should 'get the money from his dad'

The problem with the American system is there are could insurance companies and bad ones, if you work at Boeing or Microsoft then your gonna have a good one, but most companies stick their employees with a crappy one, so most people get 'health care' which is almost useless. Everything in America is like this, if you live in a rich area you get a very ni8ce public school, a poor one you get a run down dump.

In Europe everything is fair- everyone gets a good public school and good health care, if your a rich guy and you want your kids in a better school or you want to see one of those super expensive doctors in America thats fine, but everyone is entitled to good public services.

[MuscleScience]

Universal Healthcare is the Way to GO!

Everyone else is just plain WRONG!

Go Canada, England, Germany, France Holland and the many other countries that know how to do health care.

My challenge for all you nonbelievers of a universal healthcare system is to talk to people from these countries and other countries that have a universal health care system and ask them what they think about their healthcare system and would they trade it for the U.S. system.

Have them post there thoughts here…

This is an international forum and I bet you won’t find too many on this board that come from universal health care system to trade it for the U.S. system of greedy HMO’s.

It is usually the guys from the U.S. who hasn’t lived any other place and is right wing or hardcore constitutionalist that lay claim that the U.S. system is superior to most but that is just plain egocentric narrow B.S. that stems from naivety or a lack of understanding.

Universal Health Care is the Way to GO!

I think in theory it would be better as far as more people getting access. The Problem is that the government has shown time after time that they can not run things smoothly and effectively, I see universal health care being no different.

BTW what is wrong with adhering to the constitution?

[Kratos]

by sending him to one 'specialist' after another-they would stick him with co-payments and it would cost them nothing-because just an office visit doesn't cost them anything- but the necessary surgery would.

The co-pay doesn't come anywhere near the cost of an office visit for a specialist.

If it were gvmt healthcare, he wouldn't be running around to office visits, just waiting his turn.

[Prada]

Not everyone is a money whore. Many people do things because it’s just the right thing to do…. I spend countless hours at the gym and school and it’s not because I get paid to do what I do. It’s because I have an intrinsic motivation for achievement and learning….

As a matter of fact I am quite the opposite when it comes to money in that I am highly qualified to do many things that would make me rich but I choose to do what I want to do and it does not involve chasing the almighty dollar…. I am happy with my life and would not change it for anything.

Speaking of people who leave developed countries (i.e Canada, UK, France) to go to the US, most of them its for the money. Living conditions are at par if not better in some of those countries. Obviously, many would not openly state its for the money but it is for most. Having lived in these countries I have seen and experienced it.

[Fat Guy]

I think in theory it would be better as far as more people getting access. The Problem is that the government has shown time after time that they can not run things smoothly and effectively, I see universal health care being no different.

BTW what is wrong with adhering to the constitution?

Nothing wrong with using the constitution as a guide, however if we followed it to the letter as it was originally written African Americans would still be considered property and women would have no rights. So the constitution in all its splendor is a magnificent document however it is not the be all, end all and is to be used as a guide for society.

[SMCengineer]

Nothing wrong with using the constitution as a guide, however if we followed it to the letter as it was originally written African Americans would still be considered property and women would have no rights. So the constitution in all its splendor is a magnificent document however it is not the be all, end all and is to be used as a guide for society.

You couldn't be anymore wrong. It's because the constitution wasn't followed to a "T" that these atrocities even took place. Of course we never learn from our mistakes, do we?

[SMCengineer]

American HMO's are fking useless, I had a friend who had this problem with his jaw, a decayed tooth had apparently caused a bone malignancy in his jaw that caused alot of pain, they would give him the run around endlessly while he was in pain; anything to get out of doing the surgery because all they cared about was saving/making money.. by sending him to one 'specialist' after another-they would stick him with co-payments and it would cost them nothing-because just an office visit doesn't cost them anything- but the necessary surgery would..thats how the HMO scam works when he complained one of the doctors suggested that he should 'get the money from his dad'

The problem with the American system is there are could insurance companies and bad ones, if you work at Boeing or Microsoft then your gonna have a good one, but most companies stick their employees with a crappy one, so most people get 'health care' which is almost useless. Everything in America is like this, if you live in a rich area you get a very ni8ce public school, a poor one you get a run down dump.

In Europe everything is fair- everyone gets a good public school and good health care, if your a rich guy and you want your kids in a better school or you want to see one of those super expensive doctors in America thats fine, but everyone is entitled to good public services.

HMO's definitely are useless and it's a perfect example of how badly the government screwed up that attempt at minimizing healthcare costs, yet now we want to give them more control over healthcare decisions? Why is it that you guys even trust the government so much as to even take care of anything related to your health? They don't do many things right and most decisions are based on election cycles so where does your confidence in Washington come from?

[Odpierdol_sie!]

.....

[MuscleScience]

You couldn't be anymore wrong. It's because the constitution wasn't followed to a "T" that these atrocities even took place. Of course we never learn from our mistakes, do we?

Agreed

[inheritmylife]

Shit, socialized education works great in America, why not healthcare?

[Fat Guy]

You couldn't be anymore wrong. It's because the constitution wasn't followed to a "T" that these atrocities even took place. Of course we never learn from our mistakes, do we?

Are your serious!?!?!? Do you really think the framers of the constitution considered African Americans, women, and Native Americans when they wrote the constitution? Many of the Framers were slave owners and considered blacks as property…. Give me a break. What white supremacy propaganda have you been reading? History clearly shows that this document is not the be all to end all and that is why there are amendments to it… Geeesssshhhhh…. Don’t they teach you kids anything in school these days?

However this is a whole other topic so I am bowing out for any further comment for arguments sake and I know that the constitution is a great document but it does not come without flaws… and that’s my final thoughts on this.

[Fat Guy]

Agreed

Two wrongs do not make a right…

[Fat Guy]

Havent got a clue what most of you guys are chatting about.. but to throw my hat in the ring i have to hold up my hands and say those who talk bad of a national health care system like the UK have and say it wont work are talking through their arses.

I was a sitting on the fence untill april when i needed urgent medical treatment... the care i received could not have been better in a private hospital in london or anywhere else in the world. 2 Weeks after i was discharged my Gf gave birth and again... second to none! in the labour room there were 2 midwifes, 2 doctors and 4 pediatricians in and out of the room through out the birth. they then told me that they are very sorry they cant stay in the room with us and were just leaving us with a doctor and midwife because the ward was very busy and they had 10 women in labour.
Had it been quiet then im sure they woudl have all been int eh room through out the birth, but from what i saw i cant argue with the standard... it was exemplary.

Working in the Fire dept i see many different people in need of urgent medical care and even though none is private our system for the NHS paramedics etc are way better than any private system in the world.

Private hospitals are only after money and as far as i see, its out of order to charge people for care.

You come on holiday here, do you get insurance? do you need it? What would happen to YOU if YOU were hit by a bus and ended up in ER for 8 hours followed by a 3 week stay in a high dependency unit? how much money would you have to pay out? i can tell you the answer but ill leave you to decide how much the NHS is worth to you because i know how much it is worth to me.

First thing they taught me when training to be a firefighter... you cant put a price on life... any med professional etc arguing with this, in my eyse is a cvnt! A cvnt who has no morals and is in the wrong job.
With medical professionals over here, its not about money its about helping people in need! this is the ethical reason they did medicine to begin with!

If when signing on the dotted line for study to become a Med student and $$$ are spinning in their eyes, wont take a genius to work out what i think of them!

Thank you…

Most of the guys who bash universal health care don’t have a clue… Your testimony is a great illustration of universal health care and I am willing to bet many other people from countries that have universal health care have more positive things to say then negative about the system.

Your story makes a great point and your right in that the healthcare field can be very satisfying just in the ideal of helping others who are in need instead the current American model of profit and greed as motivation…. Thanks

[SMCengineer]

Are your serious!?!?!? Do you really think the framers of the constitution considered African Americans, women, and Native Americans when they wrote the constitution? Many of the Framers were slave owners and considered blacks as property…. Give me a break. What white supremacy propaganda have you been reading?

You should of read the post before you made an asinie reply such as this and than topped it off with a rediciuolous remark to try and discredit anything I said, which, I might add, clearly shows your inability to debate and unwillingness to keep it civil. If you used logic instead of irrationality in your response you would've realized that in the post I said "if the constitution was followed to a T" meaning it's necessary to give everyone equal rights as it states in the Declaration of Independence (All men are created equal). "If" being the operative word, meaning the constitution wasn't strictly followed it was "loosely" interpreted or not followed at all and this was done to achieve political ends by the very men who created it! Can you understand that or is it to difficult for you to grasp? I normally don't get irritated by stupid posts, but when you throw in a comment that suggests racism you're clearly mistaken and need to take a step back to reconsider what you write. While your at it, check the history of the liberal philosophy that you so adamantly adhere too.

History clearly shows that this document is not the be all to end all and that is why there are amendments to it…

The amendment process shows how close the constitution actually is to perfection rather than showing it's flaws.

Don’t they teach you kids anything in school these days?

I would assume not much because it's handled by the federal government.

[eliteforce]

It doesn't cost them anything and the specialists suck some of them are 'therapists', they're all working in the same medical center, when you walk into a doctors office and he just checks you over and says a few words, then your stuck with a co-payment and it doesn't really cost them anything like surgery would; and then it happens again and again you start to realize thats how they're making their money-by pretending they don't know what the problem is and sending him to these office visits endlessly-they were trying to get him to tire of the racket and give up..

The co-pay doesn't come anywhere near the cost of an office visit for a specialist.

If it were gvmt healthcare, he wouldn't be running around to office visits, just waiting his turn.

[thegodfather]

There is no need to even debate the specifics of programs like these. We can look to history to see how Socialist systems turn out. They may go on for a little while, decades even, but in the end the needs outweigh the available capital to pay for them eventually bankrupting the system assuring NO ONE gets benefits. The most compassionate thing you can do for a person is to show them how to provide for their own needs and not acquiesce this responsibility to big government.

[SMCengineer]

^^people don't like to admit that dirty little fact about Socialism.

[eliteforce]

So the Netherland's, Britain's, Germany's, Japan's are go{ing} on for a little while, decades even, but in the end the needs outweigh the available capital to pay for them eventually bankrupting the system assuring NO ONE gets benefits.

So can I expect that Germans will not be able see the doctor next month or year? but atleast in america rich people will still be able to see the doctor

going bankrupt..? ofcource they have that money that they didn't waste on the iraq war and a bloated military budget..

There is no need to even debate the specifics of programs like these. We can look to history to see how Socialist systems turn out. They may go on for a little while, decades even, but in the end the needs outweigh the available capital to pay for them eventually bankrupting the system assuring NO ONE gets benefits. The most compassionate thing you can do for a person is to show them how to provide for their own needs and not acquiesce this responsibility to big government.

[inheritmylife]

So the Netherland's, Britain's, Germany's, Japan's are go{ing} on for a little while, decades even, but in the end the needs outweigh the available capital to pay for them eventually bankrupting the system assuring NO ONE gets benefits.

So can I expect that Germans will not be able see the doctor next month or year? but atleast in america rich people will still be able to see the doctor

going bankrupt..? ofcource they have that money that they didn't waste on the iraq war and a bloated military budget..

We want it in our pocket, you guys want it taken out of your paycheck.

I'm in good health, I could use the money for something awesome.

[3v1lj03]

The only thing wrong with health care in the U.S. is it costs way too much and the only way to fix that is to dump the 3 party payer and let the free market work just like it does for the parts of the health care system that medicare/caid and insurance companys won't pay for like elective plastic surgery and lasik. Look how prices have fallen and products and service have improved due to the consumer driven pricing. That is the American way to fix it not some socialist system. But, alas I think the American way is all but dead. The people no longer want independence they want security and that kind of thinking only leads to tyranny.

[MuscleScience]

It really doesnt matter if we get universal health care or not. If we keep sending 700 billion in capital overseas every year we will will not be even afford to print more of our declining dollar.

[SMCengineer]

The only thing wrong with health care in the U.S. is it costs way too much and the only way to fix that is to dump the 3 party payer and let the free market work just like it does for the parts of the health care system that medicare/caid and insurance companys won't pay for like elective plastic surgery and lasik. Look how prices have fallen and products and service have improved due to the consumer driven pricing. That is the American way to fix it not some socialist system. But, alas I think the American way is all but dead. The people no longer want independence they want security and that kind of thinking only leads to tyranny.

Nice! Someone else who understands. Not many people left who do.