LH Desensitization? Anthony Roberts PCT, where did the libido go?

**Defconx3** · 08-08-2006, 03:38 PM

Hey Bros, I've got a question to you guys regarding my PCT which I am on which goes as follows:

-------------------------------------
Pre-PCT 1-21: HCG 500iu/ed
Pre-PCT 1-21: Nolvadex 20mg/ed
Pre-PCT 1-21: Exemestane: 20mg/ed

-------------------------------------

Days 1-42: Nolvadex 20mg/ed
Days 1-21: Exemestane: 20mg/ed
Days 21-28: Exemestane: 10mg/ed
Days 28-35: Exemestane: 5mg/ed
Days 1-21: Clomid 100mg/ed
Days 21-28: Clomid 50mg/ed
Days 28-35: Clomid 25mg/ed
Days 1-42: Tongkat Ali 1,500mg/ed
Days 1-28: Tribulus 4g/ed
Days 1-28: IGF-1 LR3 40mcg/ed
-------------------------------------

As you can see, I have anthony robert's PCT incorportated into the Pre-PCT section of my PCT.

What is bothering me is the fact that for the first week or so the HCG regimin I REALLY felt the effects of the HCG. I had great sex drive and I was very much enjoying myself, as well as was the girlfriend.

Also, I was still continuing to make small gains in the gym even though I was off cycle (SWEET).

Now I am nearing 2-1/2 weeks into the HCG, (which for anthony robert's protocol he calls for three weeks at 500iu/ed), and it seems as though I am having a MUCH MUCH smaller reaction to the HCG. I am exibiting all of the classic signs of low Test: Depression, extreme fatigue, low libido, etc. All of this while I am on 500iu/ed of HCG. I am thinking that perhaps the exemestane is lowering my estrogen levels too far and causing some sort of a negative feedback loop, but I am also concerned that I am desensitizing my Lidig Cells (sp?) to LH, because I thought that nolvadex upregulated LH at the Petutary Gland, not necessarly at the lydig cells themselves.

Well that pretty much sums it all up, any help, comments, or suggestions would really be appreciated. Thanks bros!

**Defconx3** · 08-09-2006, 09:47 AM

No one knows?

The point I'm trying to make is that it seems as though I am going backward, instead of progressing in my PCT and I want to stop it.

**cmax** · 08-09-2006, 02:21 PM

Are you doing the top set, the bottom set, or both? I am confused.

-------------------------------------
Pre-PCT 1-21: HCG 500iu/ed
Pre-PCT 1-21: Nolvadex 20mg/ed
Pre-PCT 1-21: Exemestane: 20mg/ed

-------------------------------------

Days 1-42: Nolvadex 20mg/ed
Days 1-21: Exemestane: 20mg/ed
Days 21-28: Exemestane: 10mg/ed
Days 28-35: Exemestane: 5mg/ed
Days 1-21: Clomid 100mg/ed
Days 21-28: Clomid 50mg/ed
Days 28-35: Clomid 25mg/ed
Days 1-42: Tongkat Ali 1,500mg/ed
Days 1-28: Tribulus 4g/ed
Days 1-28: IGF-1 LR3 40mcg/ed
-------------------------------------

Why are you doing a 21 day Pre-PCT before your actual 35 day PCT?

If you are doing both the Pre-PCT followed by the PCT then it totally seems like overkill. What was your cycle?

How long after your last injection did you wait to start your Pre-PCT?

**Defconx3** · 08-09-2006, 03:46 PM

It might seem like overkill, and maybe it is, but I am planning on trying to tighten up my diet and routine and train natural for a couple more years before beginning to cycle again, so I am really serious about making sure that I fully and totally recover.

My last cycle was a 18.5 wk Test Eth 600mg/wk, Primo 600mg/wk cycle. I have problems with estrogen rebound sometimes, so I wanted a hardcore PCT to try to minimize any of those issues. In addition afterward I plan on waiting a week and going in for bloodwork to ensure that everything is good.

Since we are still talking HCG usage, which does prevent full endocrine balance recovery, I started it 1 week after my last injection.

Comments?

**spywizard** · 08-09-2006, 03:50 PM

HCG is used during the cycle.. not during PCT.. that's one issue..

**Defconx3** · 08-09-2006, 03:51 PM

Check out the sticky at the top of this forum called "Anthony Robert's PCT"

**spywizard** · 08-09-2006, 03:53 PM

so, there are other studies.. if you prefer to follow that one system, good luck, and let us know how it works out for you...

if it works great, then maybe others will follow in your foot steps..

good luck..

**Defconx3** · 08-09-2006, 03:57 PM

I was not preferring to follow that one system, rather incorporate that system in with the standard system. I was asking for help in explaining why I was experiencing the decrease in libido instead of the increase as my PCT is progressing. I am simply worrying about LH desensitization, so I wanted someone with some knowledge on the subject to tell me if that is a danger, and what the smart thing would be to do to proceed.

**spywizard** · 08-09-2006, 04:11 PM

ahhhhhhhh..

Pheedno's PCT

is the one i have followed with success, but i've only run 4 cycles, and i'm older..

tongkat worked great for me.. and an extended pct using mostly clomid 50mg 60 days really helped bring back my libedo, and sperm count.. (dont ask)

hope that helps..

**Defconx3** · 08-09-2006, 08:32 PM

Originally Posted by spywizard

ahhhhhhhh..

Pheedno's PCT

is the one i have followed with success, but i've only run 4 cycles, and i'm older..

tongkat worked great for me.. and an extended pct using mostly clomid 50mg 60 days really helped bring back my libedo, and sperm count.. (dont ask)

hope that helps..

Thanks, and yeah, that is pretty much the same idea with what my PCT is based around: An aromatase inhibitor, clomid, nolvadex . I was thinking about just changing the clomid to 50mg/ed and running it for longer, would you recommend that?

Also, if anyone has anything to chime in about my original question, feel free to shoot.

**C_Bino** · 08-09-2006, 10:18 PM

I believe that HCG can be beneficial during PCT and in fact I used it in my last PCT with great success. I also believe both a SERM and AI should be combined in a good PCT.

I also would even go as far as to say you can use both clomid and nolva plus an AI and HCG. This is EXACTLY what I did for my PCT and it was amazing.

Clomid and nolva both act in slightly different ways and clomid actually helps with lipids so this is definitely beneficial so even if its weaker than nolva it still has a place in PCT.

Mine was as follows:
1-3 HCG 500iu ed
1-3 Letro .5mg ed
1-2 Clomid 100mg ed
3-4 Clomid 50mg ed
1-6 Nolva 20mg ed

**Property of Steroid.com** · 08-13-2006, 03:43 PM

Originally Posted by Defconx3

I was not preferring to follow that one system, rather incorporate that system in with the standard system. I was asking for help in explaining why I was experiencing the decrease in libido instead of the increase as my PCT is progressing. I am simply worrying about LH desensitization, so I wanted someone with some knowledge on the subject to tell me if that is a danger, and what the smart thing would be to do to proceed.

Actually, My PCT program calls for no clomid at all....and I noticed that you have chosen to incorporate Clomid into my PCT. You can't really run different doses, different dosing schedules, etc...and expect it to perform the same as when it's written out. In this case, I would direct your attention to your question concerning the LH response, desensitivity, and the fact that you are using Clomid (against my reccomendations).

Clomid decreases the LH response to LH-releasing hormone in the body; which is exactly why I don't usually reccomend it....in other words, you've added clomid to my PCT, and it causes exactly the kind of LH desensitization that you are worried about:

Fertil Steril. 1978 Mar;29(3):320-7.
Hormonal effects of an antiestrogen, tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men.

Vermeulen A,
Comhaire F.

The administration of tamoxifen , 20 mg/day for 10 days, to normal males produced a moderate increase in luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), testosterone , and estradiol levels, comparable to the effect of 150 mg of clomiphene citrate (Clomid). However, whereas Clomid produced a decrease in the LH response to LH-releasing hormone (LHRH), no such effect was seen after the administration of tamoxifen. In fact, prolonged treatment (6 weeks) with tamoxifen significantly increased the LH response to LHRL. Treatment of patients with "idiopathic" oligospermia for 6 to 9 months resulted in a significant increase in gonadotropin, testosterone, and estradiol levels. A significant increase in sperm density was observed only in subjects with oligospermia below 20 X 10(6)/ml and normal basal FSH levels. When basal FSH levels were increased or oligospermia was moderate (greater than 20 X 10(6)/ml); no effect on sperm density was seen. As sperm density increased, FSH levels decreased, suggesting an inhibin effect. Sperm motility was not improved by tamoxifen treatment. In five boys with delayed puberty, tamoxifen treatment appeared to activate the pituitary-gonadal axis and pubertal development.
PMID: 640052 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

**Defconx3** · 08-13-2006, 09:06 PM

Word from the man himself, thanks Anthony.

Actually I had not incorporated the clomid into the PCT yet at the time of the noted side effects. I think that there is a slight LH desensitization issue from the HCG which will need to be dealt with by gratual upregulation by the refreshing of the receptors and nolvadex . Trust me, I am not sad to have to discontinue the clomid for the time being, I hate the stuff and how its making me feel right now. I usually do not have too much of a problem with it but for some reason its bad right now.

I have read people say that clomid stimulates the receptors at the pituitary gland better then nolvadex does, and therefore is the superior agent to use to increase testosterone levels during PCT. On a side note I have noticed that it does in fact take longer to recover when I only use nolvadex, versus nolvadex and clomid but perhaps that is simply because there is more SERMs in my system with both of them being applicated. I have not read any studies confirming the rumor though.

I am interested in your take and everyone elses take on the whole nolvadex vs clomid pituitary gland binding affinity thing.

**Defconx3** · 08-14-2006, 02:31 PM

Just as a follow up, I think my sex drive was lowered by too low levels of estrogen from the exemestane. I lowered the dosage a bit and things seem to be improving signifigantly. That or it could be that I am beginning to come back into balance, and the dose change was just a coincidence.

**Property of Steroid.com** · 08-14-2006, 03:30 PM

I noticed you also chose to leave out the Vitamin E, which increases the blood plasma testosterone elevation in response to the HCG .

**Defconx3** · 08-14-2006, 03:43 PM

Actually I am taking vitamin e at 1200iu/ed. I just forgot to list it in my PCT listing because I kind of think as part of my standard vitamin intake.

**Property of Steroid.com** · 08-14-2006, 08:55 PM

SO you're running my PCT. Except you are doing it while you are still on a cycle? Am I reading this correctly?

**C_Bino** · 08-14-2006, 09:32 PM

Originally Posted by Anthony Roberts

SO you're running my PCT. Except you are doing it while you are still on a cycle? Am I reading this correctly?

I believe you are. He seems to be using your PCT during his down time betwen last shots and normal PCT start time.

**Defconx3** · 08-16-2006, 01:16 AM

Originally Posted by Anthony Roberts

SO you're running my PCT. Except you are doing it while you are still on a cycle? Am I reading this correctly?

No, I am off cycle in my PCT.

I think you are not understanding the whole point of this particular PCT, and understandably so since I did not explain it in this thread. I happen to have a hard time recovering after cycles and this one is the longest one I have done yet. In addition after my previous cycle's PCT I think I had an estrogen rebound because it felt like my sex drive came back to normal for a few weeks following my PCT, then began to decline quickly, only to began to return over a period of a few months. Then I started this new cycle which I am currently in PCT.

My main concern is a solid recovery. I think I did not fully recover last cycle so I am thinking that the "down time" experienced by my endocrine system in total was quite a length of time (maybe 10-12 months), if you think of the downtime as the time from which my previous cycle started to when my last one ended, since I don't think I ever fully recovered from my previous one.Therefore I am trying to make up for it in this PCT by making it an extra thorough one. Also I have made the decision that I am not concentrating on my diet and routine as much as I should be, so I am going to drop the steroids for 3-4 years and try to learn how to make better gains naturally before returning to steroids.

After this PCT I am not going to make the same mistake as last time and I am going to get a full blood panel to make sure everything is in line with acceptable levels.

Hopefully this helps clear things up.

Also, you guys are very bright people, so I would love to hear any advice that you may have that could help with my particular situation. Thanks!

**Titan1** · 08-16-2006, 03:58 AM

You dont have to worry about leydig cells Dr.swale is a hrt doctor and in his protocoll he usues doses 250-500ius and he says that those doses are ok its higher doses over that that can damage leydig cells

**G-13** · 08-16-2006, 09:27 AM

I used HCG during my cycle and only nolva pct and recoverd fine...no clomid at all....

**Property of Steroid.com** · 08-18-2006, 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by Defconx3

No, I am off cycle in my PCT.

I think you are not understanding the whole point of this particular PCT, and understandably so since I did not explain it in this thread. I happen to have a hard time recovering after cycles and this one is the longest one I have done yet. In addition after my previous cycle's PCT I think I had an estrogen rebound because it felt like my sex drive came back to normal for a few weeks following my PCT, then began to decline quickly, only to began to return over a period of a few months. Then I started this new cycle which I am currently in PCT.

My main concern is a solid recovery. I think I did not fully recover last cycle so I am thinking that the "down time" experienced by my endocrine system in total was quite a length of time (maybe 10-12 months), if you think of the downtime as the time from which my previous cycle started to when my last one ended, since I don't think I ever fully recovered from my previous one.Therefore I am trying to make up for it in this PCT by making it an extra thorough one. Also I have made the decision that I am not concentrating on my diet and routine as much as I should be, so I am going to drop the steroids for 3-4 years and try to learn how to make better gains naturally before returning to steroids.

After this PCT I am not going to make the same mistake as last time and I am going to get a full blood panel to make sure everything is in line with acceptable levels.

Hopefully this helps clear things up.

Also, you guys are very bright people, so I would love to hear any advice that you may have that could help with my particular situation. Thanks!

You "think" that the problem this time around was with LH Desensitization, you "think" that the problem was estrogen rebound last time, and you "think" that you didn't fully recover last time, finally you "think" that the down time was too long.

Here's what I think:

I think that you just aren't getting blood work, you aren't doing things properly, you are guessing, and "thinking" too much without getting concrete numbers and facts to work with. If you didn't recover from your last cycle, why didn't you correct the problem then, instead of going on another cycle? Why didn't you do PCT until you were actually recovered? Why wouldn't you spend the money on bloodwork and get some concrete numbers to work with? Instead of "I don't feel horny, therefore surely my LH is desensitized"

I can't imagine the chain of events, without any bloodwork to go by, which leads to this line of thinking:"Oh...it must be estrogen rebound. Oh...I must not be recovered. Oh....it must be my LH. Oh....my down time was too long. "

It's tough, but I think you should have done things correctly the first time, and that means getting bloodwork, and staying healthy and safe. It's borderline absurd to read the random guesses you're making in this thread, without any foundation for them....then to get half the information necessary to help, and then only to get it once we ask for it: ("Oh, did I mention I never even recovered from my last cycle, before going on this one? It must be LH desensitization, or estrogen or some other random thing that I will pick out of nowhere. Surely that's the cause of it...Did I mention that I think there's a problem with my PCT?").

You need to stop guessing, and you need to go get blood work, and you should have been getting it over the last year, at quarterly intervals, especially if there was ever a question about whether your endocrine system ever recovered. I've stated several times, on this board and others, that you don't go on another cycle until you have recovered to within acceptable ranges from your last one.

You need to do things right, or not do them at all. Stop guessing, stop thinking, and start getting bloodwork.

And keep us updated on this thread, because I'm genuinely concerned and interested to see your progress at this point (5 weeks in?).

**Starkraven** · 08-18-2006, 11:02 PM

i dont know what anthony robert's PCT is, but if its HCG , nolva, and aromasin , then it works. i dont have first hand experience but a friend of mine was on 200mg test e/week for 4 YEARS straight and came off with that since clomid turned him into a bitch and he recovered very well. personally i did not notice the bitchiness from clomid the last two times i used it. im also using lab made stuff from two different people with the same effect. i had my bloodwork taken after using HCG/nolva then clomid alone 50mg/day. While on 50mg clomid ed, my LH/FSH were the same numbers and were normal. everyting came out normal but the test/free test and estrogen are still pending..im off clomid now and been thinking about taking tongkat ali for a month. but i feel 85% recovered, still have a good libido but not as high or as recovered as i felt naturally 2 years ago before i took tren E which is what i think damaged my HPTA because it still seems to affect my HPTA for an unknown reason despite the bloodwork. maybe my free test is low..

**Defconx3** · 08-19-2006, 07:39 PM

Originally Posted by Anthony Roberts

You "think" that the problem this time around was with LH Desensitization, you "think" that the problem was estrogen rebound last time, and you "think" that you didn't fully recover last time, finally you "think" that the down time was too long.

Here's what I think:

I think that you just aren't getting blood work, you aren't doing things properly, you are guessing, and "thinking" too much without getting concrete numbers and facts to work with. If you didn't recover from your last cycle, why didn't you correct the problem then, instead of going on another cycle? Why didn't you do PCT until you were actually recovered? Why wouldn't you spend the money on bloodwork and get some concrete numbers to work with? Instead of "I don't feel horny, therefore surely my LH is desensitized"

I can't imagine the chain of events, without any bloodwork to go by, which leads to this line of thinking:"Oh...it must be estrogen rebound. Oh...I must not be recovered. Oh....it must be my LH. Oh....my down time was too long. "

It's tough, but I think you should have done things correctly the first time, and that means getting bloodwork, and staying healthy and safe. It's borderline absurd to read the random guesses you're making in this thread, without any foundation for them....then to get half the information necessary to help, and then only to get it once we ask for it: ("Oh, did I mention I never even recovered from my last cycle, before going on this one? It must be LH desensitization, or estrogen or some other random thing that I will pick out of nowhere. Surely that's the cause of it...Did I mention that I think there's a problem with my PCT?").

You need to stop guessing, and you need to go get blood work, and you should have been getting it over the last year, at quarterly intervals, especially if there was ever a question about whether your endocrine system ever recovered. I've stated several times, on this board and others, that you don't go on another cycle until you have recovered to within acceptable ranges from your last one.

You need to do things right, or not do them at all. Stop guessing, stop thinking, and start getting bloodwork.

And keep us updated on this thread, because I'm genuinely concerned and interested to see your progress at this point (5 weeks in?).

Well.. First of all I am going to say that you are right. Although it may be a bit harsh the way you worded it, I already know myself everything you have said above is true. Trust me, its not a pleasant feeling to wake up every morning and wonder if I am ever going to have my sex drive back. Honestly, this is probably the single greatest regret out of any of the mistakes that I have ever made in my life. I know my endocrine system is seriously screwed up. Thats why I am staying off for a long time as of the end of this cycle, I just want to be healthy again.

Its so funny how you don't miss something until its taken from you, (or you take it from yourself). I hate talking to a friend, or just watching TV and seeing someone who is horny and finding myself feeling jealous of it. I am so tired of seeing my buddys who have sex with their partners 3x a day and wishing that I could have that same drive. Im tired of the rollercoaster effect on my moods, im tired of being able to be around a bunch of topless girls and not even careing, im tired of the depression, and frankly im tired of being tired.

I know that all of my guesses are just a shot in the dark without the bloodwork and the facts to back up everything that I am feeling. In my opinion they are at least logical shots in the dark.

If you didn't recover from your last cycle, why didn't you correct the problem then, instead of going on another cycle? Why didn't you do PCT until you were actually recovered?

At the time I did feel like I was recovered, I ran a proper clomid/nolvadex PCT protocol and I did have a partial return of sex drive (compared to near nothing right now). However, I assume some sort of a rebound happened because there was a sharp decrease in the progress that I made after stopping the medication. At that point I should have made the conclusion "I can not possibably be recovered, I should get bloodwork and see what needs to be done". Thats not what I did though, mostly because my doctor has asked me suspeciously about steroid use before and I do not want to deal with the insurance consiquences if things were reported to insurance.

At that point I ran nolvadex only, for 20 days at 20mg/ed and experienced a small improvement and called it a day, until this latest cycle.

I can't imagine the chain of events, without any bloodwork to go by, which leads to this line of thinking:"Oh...it must be estrogen rebound. Oh...I must not be recovered. Oh....it must be my LH. Oh....my down time was too long. "

The reason why I suspected estrogen rebound the first time around was because I noticed that whenever I discontinued the SERM's I experienced a lot of water retention. In addition during my whole cycle I was running letro to keep bloating down, and that is known to cause signifigant estrogen rebounds when discontinued.

I think its obvious that I am not recovered from the way that I feel, meaning the complete lack of sex drive, the fatigue, the depression, the rollercoaster effect of feeling great one second and feeling utterly horrible the next.

The reason why I began to suspect the LH desensitization was because as of the beginning of my PCT, when I started the HCG , I felt GREAT. I remembered what it was like when I used to actually have a sex drive. I felt horny and the need to have sex, something that was absent from my life for a little more then the last year. It reminded me of how I used to feel before starting anabolic steroids and it made me realize how not-recovered I really am. Even when I am on Test I do not feel horny, it brings down my sex drive.

Then fast forward to the beginning of this post, where despite the dosages of all my drugs remaining the same, my illusive sex drive vanished once again into thin air. I was suspecting LH desensitization because that would be the most logical explaination why I stopped responding to the HCG, unless I'm forgetting something. God I miss being healthy.

It's tough, but I think you should have done things correctly the first time, and that means getting bloodwork, and staying healthy and safe.

You are absolutely right, I wake up to look at myself straight in the eyes every day in the bathroom mirror and tell myself that I am a ****ing idiot. Its too late to think of what I should have done and I should now concentrate on what I should do.

You need to do things right, or not do them at all. Stop guessing, stop thinking, and start getting bloodwork.

And keep us updated on this thread, because I'm genuinely concerned and interested to see your progress at this point (5 weeks in?).

I honestly sincerely appreciate that you are concerned about my particular condition, really. I think that what I need to do is get some bloodwork done. Should I wait until I finish my PCT?

My progress seems to have come to a standstill thus far. I do not feel any more/less recovered then I did two weeks ago.

Honestly, what do you think is going on?

Anyone know a good endocrinologist that has experience treating AAS induced hypogonadism in the southern california area?

**Starkraven** · 08-19-2006, 09:56 PM

doesnt gear just suck? what a complicated mess.. one thing leads to the next, almost like being in a prison, it just sort of traps you and you gota figure out what you need to do next. i suggest you never cycle again..i know im done with this crap.

**Defconx3** · 08-19-2006, 10:09 PM

Originally Posted by Starkraven

doesnt gear just suck? what a complicated mess.. one thing leads to the next, almost like being in a prison, it just sort of traps you and you gota figure out what you need to do next. i suggest you never cycle again..i know im done with this crap.

Yes, but I'm not blaming the substances, I'm blaming myself for the bad decisions that I made. I just want to be healthy again.

**Starkraven** · 08-19-2006, 11:19 PM

Originally Posted by Defconx3

Yes, but I'm not blaming the substances, I'm blaming myself for the bad decisions that I made. I just want to be healthy again.

believe me i made the same bad decisions. the cons WAYYY outweighed the benefits, to the point where i wasnt getting much benefit. ive made even worse decisions than you. i have a post about it in another thread, you could do a search on my name but if not, i basically started at 17, just a month short of turnin 18. so i stunted my height, ****ed with my HPTA, got arrested for it and did time, no slap on the wrist here, i did time + 126 DAYS of caltrans which is hardcore community service 8 hours a day. this was years ago when i was around 20. at the same time my mom kicked me out of the house and my car was impounded let alone was unemployed and finding work was a real mission when you have a FELONY on your record.

but i made things happen and life got better. im not as bad as you are as far as HPTA damage. i still have a high libido and high sex drive with good erections, but it was higher and i had better erections (better recovery between orgasms, more frequent erections as well, and harder ones), better orgasms, etc and i cant seem to achieve that even with PCT. i feel about 85-90% recovered all the time. so i just got off the PCT and just got some vitamin e. i take ZMA each night as i noticed this helps. hard morning wood each morning. i dropped PCT after 3 weeks. i was feeling the same as last years PCT. just doesnt really get better than this with PCT so i just let my body recover naturally. screw all that clomid nolva crap. i might get some proviron and/or tongkat ali to see if maybe its my free test that is low, but my bloodwork from last week will tell me in a couple days.

BTW i was fine even after 20 and 21 with my HPTA, in fact i had the highest sex drive and best orgasms of my life at 21. i didnt use gear at this time as i was cleaning up my life and doing my fair share of community service. but then i got my case expunged and went back on a cycle. it was the cycle that i should have never done. test e + tren E. 500mg each per week for 7 weeks. the tren E permanently damaged my HPTA (or at least it seems like it). that cycle was taken december 04. today is aug 06. it bloated my face and neck which is still there and shut me down very hard. to the point where the intensity or feeling of orgasms and sex drive in general was lowered and stayed this way until this day.

**Defconx3** · 08-20-2006, 03:18 AM

Originally Posted by Starkraven

believe me i made the same bad decisions. the cons WAYYY outweighed the benefits, to the point where i wasnt getting much benefit. ive made even worse decisions than you. i have a post about it in another thread, you could do a search on my name but if not, i basically started at 17, just a month short of turnin 18. so i stunted my height, ****ed with my HPTA, got arrested for it and did time, no slap on the wrist here, i did time + 126 DAYS of caltrans which is hardcore community service 8 hours a day. this was years ago when i was around 20. at the same time my mom kicked me out of the house and my car was impounded let alone was unemployed and finding work was a real mission when you have a FELONY on your record.

but i made things happen and life got better. im not as bad as you are as far as HPTA damage. i still have a high libido and high sex drive with good erections, but it was higher and i had better erections (better recovery between orgasms, more frequent erections as well, and harder ones), better orgasms, etc and i cant seem to achieve that even with PCT. i feel about 85-90% recovered all the time. so i just got off the PCT and just got some vitamin e. i take ZMA each night as i noticed this helps. hard morning wood each morning. i dropped PCT after 3 weeks. i was feeling the same as last years PCT. just doesnt really get better than this with PCT so i just let my body recover naturally. screw all that clomid nolva crap. i might get some proviron and/or tongkat ali to see if maybe its my free test that is low, but my bloodwork from last week will tell me in a couple days.

BTW i was fine even after 20 and 21 with my HPTA, in fact i had the highest sex drive and best orgasms of my life at 21. i didnt use gear at this time as i was cleaning up my life and doing my fair share of community service. but then i got my case expunged and went back on a cycle. it was the cycle that i should have never done. test e + tren E. 500mg each per week for 7 weeks. the tren E permanently damaged my HPTA (or at least it seems like it). that cycle was taken december 04. today is aug 06. it bloated my face and neck which is still there and shut me down very hard. to the point where the intensity or feeling of orgasms and sex drive in general was lowered and stayed this way until this day.

It does help to know that I'm not the only one who feels as though they made a huge, huge mustake. Did you ever see an endocrinologist? I feel the same exact way about the lack of intensity of orgasms and sex drive being lowered to the point of being nearly gone.

I hope someone knows a good AAS experienced endo in So Cal.

**Starkraven** · 08-20-2006, 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by Defconx3

It does help to know that I'm not the only one who feels as though they made a huge, huge mustake. Did you ever see an endocrinologist? I feel the same exact way about the lack of intensity of orgasms and sex drive being lowered to the point of being nearly gone.

I hope someone knows a good AAS experienced endo in So Cal.

my sex drive/libido is still high and enjoyable. im just saying it was higher and orgasms were better. i live in socal but i dont know of any endos. one guy suggested to me once before that i go to the gyms populated with the best BBers and PLers and get to know some people maybe the trainers, and ask for a good sports doctor and if many are referring to one person then most likely thats who they are going through. that doctor would know enough to refer you to a good endo or see you himself.

**Property of Steroid.com** · 08-20-2006, 11:41 AM

Why not get in touch with Oasis and get a consult from them? Consults are free, and if nothing else, it'll force you to get bloodwork done, and looked at by a doctor. Then if things move along, maybe you'll end up being able to work with them for a custom PCT, with proper bloodwork.

I know it was a harsh way to word things, but usually that's the best way.

You should hear some of the shit I say to people who I get paid to consult with!

**Defconx3** · 08-20-2006, 07:12 PM

Originally Posted by Anthony Roberts

Why not get in touch with Oasis and get a consult from them? Consults are free, and if nothing else, it'll force you to get bloodwork done, and looked at by a doctor. Then if things move along, maybe you'll end up being able to work with them for a custom PCT, with proper bloodwork.

I know it was a harsh way to word things, but usually that's the best way.

You should hear some of the shit I say to people who I get paid to consult with!

Thank you for your help, oasis sounds like a good idea. First I think I am going to get a bloodpanel done through my local doctor just to see where I stand and I'll will post my results in 2 weeks or whenever I get them.

You think I should finish up my PCT then get bloodtests done, or should I just go in while I am still on nolvadex /exemestane? I would imagine that those drugs would skew the results, no?

**Defconx3** · 08-22-2006, 07:17 AM

Originally Posted by Defconx3

You think I should finish up my PCT then get bloodtests done, or should I just go in while I am still on nolvadex/exemestane? I would imagine that those drugs would skew the results, no?

Bump?

**Property of Steroid.com** · 08-22-2006, 08:39 AM

I think you should finish up your PCT as you wrote it out. Get the bloodwork done while you are still on the meds, because it'll let us know where you stand. Maybe your libido will be back in a week...it's difficult to guess things like that, you know?

**Defconx3** · 08-23-2006, 01:49 AM

Originally Posted by Anthony Roberts

I think you should finish up your PCT as you wrote it out. Get the bloodwork done while you are still on the meds, because it'll let us know where you stand. Maybe your libido will be back in a week...it's difficult to guess things like that, you know?

I agree, the body is pretty mysterious and amazing, who knows. But I think I will get that blood panel done soon, because it is good to know where I stand. I'll post results as soon as I have some. Thanks for all of your help, I want you to know that I really appreciate it.