AGGRESSIVE PCT needed for 2 year cycle

[Vitruvian-Man]

ok i am back on the tore and nolva as of today
what about running some more HCG with it?

i got some advice from another board - here it is below:

"You do in fact need to run another PCT along with HCG.
I would at the very least run 10,000iu HCG, and something around 1500 to 1000iu.
Beings that you have some testicular function you wont need the super aggressive doses.
You may consider the first two shots EOD ! 1500, then 1000.
Something like this:
1500 X 2 EOD, then 1000 X 7 EOD, that will use all the 10,000iu HCG
Then back on the clomid for 30 days @ 100mg, then 20mg nolva for 45 days."

I would do another PCT... but I would definitely not do one as suggested by that board. I would never advise shooting 1500iu of HCG in one day. that can cause desensitization..

If you want to run HCG again then you could run it for the first 2 - 3 weeks of the PCT. and use an A.I. along side it.

IMO you should really just do another long nolva/tore PCT. (around 8 weeks). I'm not really surprised that you haven't recovered, it can take multiple PCT's to recover from the length of time you stayed on.

Regarding kidney function... well that could have resulted in damage caused by the length that you stayed on AAS. Kidney function always sky-rockets on cycle (because your body is taking in so much more protein; which means a lot more has to be filtered....)

Good luck, and keep us updated.

[G-Force]

I would do another PCT... but I would definitely not do one as suggested by that board. I would never advise shooting 1500iu of HCG in one day. that can cause desensitization..

If you want to run HCG again then you could run it for the first 2 - 3 weeks of the PCT. and use an A.I. along side it.

IMO you should really just do another long nolva/tore PCT. (around 8 weeks). I'm not really surprised that you haven't recovered, it can take multiple PCT's to recover from the length of time you stayed on.

Regarding kidney function... well that could have resulted in damage caused by the length that you stayed on AAS. Kidney function always sky-rockets on cycle (because your body is taking in so much more protein; which means a lot more has to be filtered....)

Good luck, and keep us updated.

actually my kidneys were fine on cycle - i got blood tests regularly and never had any issues except for high blood pressure

it was when i came off gear, quit training and hit the bottle that my kidneys started complaining

i lost 14 kg in 2 and a half months
thats a lot of muscle waste flowing thru the kidneys
the drinking didnt help either

[Swifto]

It would be important to see your GnRH, LH and FSH levels. Then we can design a PCT around primary or secondary hypogonadism.

Either way its going to be lengthy. Stay with the Tore/Tamox for 8-10 weeks IMHO. Add in some VitC, tribulas for labido if need be.

[KAEW44]

G-Force the old-school protocol for PCT among bodybuilders in gyms (not very informed ones) was to hit huge HCG doses like 2000iu or even 1500iu in one shot and sometimes up to 5000iu in one shot! from my experience in knowing these guys they usually do it after short cycles no longer than 10 weeks so i am guessing that their body recovered naturally not from the HCG and that they thought it was the HCG magic so they kept using the same PCT over and over again.
As Swifto said a high dose of HCG will desensitize your testicles to LH so the safe way would be to go with smaller daily or EOD doses of 500iu, however if you want to use a high HCG dosage there are pro bodybuilders who recommend taking high nolvadex (40-60mg a day) on the days you inject as some experimentation has shown that higher nolva does prevent the desensitizing and also use vitamin-E because it will boost your natural production.

The kidney issue could be very related to the high blood pressure because keep in mind that the leading cause of kidney failure is high blood pressure! dont freak out your kidney could just be under some pressure now and drink lots of water to flush it out, but be careful in the future high blood pressure is a silent killer!

I strongly hope you can recover because low or no natural test will mean loss of gains!

Also research in this forum about some experimentation indicating that actually very high dosages of test (1gram+ a week) has in some people kicked back production of the natural testes functions, it sounds contradicting but i read something about it a while ago that it can do that as a last resort.

[G-Force]

G-Force the old-school protocol for PCT among bodybuilders in gyms (not very informed ones) was to hit huge HCG doses like 2000iu or even 1500iu in one shot and sometimes up to 5000iu in one shot! from my experience in knowing these guys they usually do it after short cycles no longer than 10 weeks so i am guessing that their body recovered naturally not from the HCG and that they thought it was the HCG magic so they kept using the same PCT over and over again.
As Swifto said a high dose of HCG will desensitize your testicles to LH so the safe way would be to go with smaller daily or EOD doses of 500iu, however if you want to use a high HCG dosage there are pro bodybuilders who recommend taking high nolvadex (40-60mg a day) on the days you inject as some experimentation has shown that higher nolva does prevent the desensitizing and also use vitamin-E because it will boost your natural production.

The kidney issue could be very related to the high blood pressure because keep in mind that the leading cause of kidney failure is high blood pressure! dont freak out your kidney could just be under some pressure now and drink lots of water to flush it out, but be careful in the future high blood pressure is a silent killer!

I strongly hope you can recover because low or no natural test will mean loss of gains!

Also research in this forum about some experimentation indicating that actually very high dosages of test (1gram+ a week) has in some people kicked back production of the natural testes functions, it sounds contradicting but i read something about it a while ago that it can do that as a last resort.

1g of test for pct? lol yeah your right that does sound contradictory

i think i will stick to 500iu hcg, 20mg nolva a day for 30 days
then tore / nolva for another 30 days or longer

unless i can take the tore with the hcg? is this possible?

[G-Force]

UPDATE

its been a month since my test results came back as 2.3
i just got them tested again and they are at 19.9

this is the high end of normal i believe
i am shocked
i dont feel any different and my sex drive is still non exsistent

i have done 30 days hcg 500iu's and 20mg nolva for the past month
and had the test whil on about day 25 could this have given a false reading perhaps?

[stevey_6t9]

get more tests done in a couple of weeks

[Vitruvian-Man]

UPDATE

its been a month since my test results came back as 2.3
i just got them tested again and they are at 19.9

this is the high end of normal i believe
i am shocked
i dont feel any different and my sex drive is still non exsistent

i have done 30 days hcg 500iu's and 20mg nolva for the past month
and had the test whil on about day 25 could this have given a false reading perhaps?

Absolutely..

Levels are elevated during PCT due to the SERMS taking there course.

Getting blood-work ~1 - 1.5 months post the discontinuation of PCT... will give a much more accurate reading on what testosterone (if any) your body is actually producing on its own.

-VM

[G-Force]

If Tore/Tamox dont do it, your on HRT pal!

i am so closs to just goin on self prescribed HRT my sex drive is so pathetic
my only worry is not being able to have kids

i have heard people men can have kids on HRT if they use HCG
is there any truth in this?

[Vitruvian-Man]

i am so closs to just goin on self prescribed HRT my sex drive is so pathetic
my only worry is not being able to have kids

i have heard people men can have kids on HRT if they use HCG
is there any truth in this?

That's unfortunate bro. It's probably for the best though. Living with low test levels for months is not worth it. Talk to your doc / endo about getting on TRT.

Tons of people have children who are on TRT for very prolonged periods of time. It's obviously quite a bit harder because sperm count is so reduced; however, w/ the aid of HCG therapy and clomid tons of patients have successfully conceived.

-VM

[robofish]

well i hope ur relatinoship isnt based on just sex

[Swifto]

i am so closs to just goin on self prescribed HRT my sex drive is so pathetic
my only worry is not being able to have kids

i have heard people men can have kids on HRT if they use HCG
is there any truth in this?

Yes.

HRT doesnt mean you cant have kids. HCG and HMG are both used for fertility and cosmetic (testicular atrohpy) purposes.

Your in the UK, speak with Marcus300 about Nebido (long acting HRT).

[Swifto]

UPDATE

its been a month since my test results came back as 2.3
i just got them tested again and they are at 19.9

this is the high end of normal i believe
i am shocked
i dont feel any different and my sex drive is still non exsistent

i have done 30 days hcg 500iu's and 20mg nolva for the past month
and had the test whil on about day 25 could this have given a false reading perhaps?

Yes, but it shows a response, which is a very good sign.

You need to get bloodwork done again, 5-6 weeks post PCT. Dont only get testosterone , get LH, FSH, DHEA, estrogen and prolactin. Also thyroid tests, T3/4.

[G-Force]

cheers for the replies lads

i am prepared to wait it out abit
and get my bloods done 6 weeks after PCT (FSH and LH etc)

i will post back with the results
wont be for a couple of months though

[GOONBAH]

ok ive been cycling for 2 years solid

usually 12 - 16 weeks on and 10 - 14 weeks cruise on 250 - 375mg test per week

it seems like ive been only doin this for about a year but i guess if i am honest its more like 2 years

i need to get off cycle as my stomach is very bad - acid reflux and hiatus hernia - i just cant get the calories in anymorealso i have had acompressed lower disc for a while now and need to fix both these things before i start lifintg heavy again

so normally when i used to do pct i would use nolva and clomid for 6 weeks post cycle -sometimes with hcg the last 4 weeks of my cycle

but i have not done pct in 2 years lol and i understand things have changed

i have seen swifto's pct involving aromasin and hcg

i have never used aromasin

i am looking for compounds and doses - considering the length of my cycle i am unsure on best compounds and doses. how about the addition of caber?

i am just comming to the end of a 12 week test (850mg), EQ (800mg) deca (700mg) cycle

money is not an issue - i am just lookin the best possible pct (EVER lol)

cheers

im intersted in the acid reflux, is this due to steroid use /abuse or a a result of the hernia?

[AlphaGenetics]

I just realized that swifto's the man!

[Swifto]

I just realized that swifto's the man!

I could have told you that a long time ago buddy.

[D_iamond]

swifto is 100% gangsta! hahah it is sweet that when a brotha is in need everybody joins in to help him not have to live a life of regret yalls boards are the sickest on the web period. and it is also great to see all these long time users who arent phsyco like the media says will happen to you if you even think about being stronger!!

[D_iamond]

"under construction" i think that was a missy elliot cd hahaha youre not a big black woman are you?

[G-Force]

im intersted in the acid reflux, is this due to steroid use/abuse or a a result of the hernia?

the doctors dont know what it is from
but i have been off steroids for over 5 months now and i still have it
albeit not as bad

and yes thanks again swifto and others

i am gettin tested again in a few weeks so will post the results

[tboney]

the doctors dont know what it is from
but i have been off steroids for over 5 months now and i still have it
albeit not as bad

and yes thanks again swifto and others

i am gettin tested again in a few weeks so will post the results

Hey bro, if you are and have been on hcg then your estro could be the culprit in the sex drive issue. Were you not on an AI?

[trix8]

prolactin from the deca can linger and kill ur sex drive, and so u recovered ur natty test form that cycle???

[spncr]

It would be important to see your GnRH, LH and FSH levels. Then we can design a PCT around primary or secondary hypogonadism.

Either way its going to be lengthy. Stay with the Tore/Tamox for 8-10 weeks IMHO. Add in some VitC, tribulas for labido if need be.

whrere do u get these levels tested? doctors?

[Swifto]

whrere do u get these levels tested? doctors?

Yes.

It depends where you live in the world.

I'm lucky to be in the UK and have found a doctor (after going through 4) that will test whatever I wish to keep tabs on my health (they know I use AAS).

But if your not, you may have to go privately. Another alternative is to get BW done at a needle exchange, although I havent found one that did. I think they only test the basics of lipids/live values.

[spncr]

Yes.

It depends where you live in the world.

I'm lucky to be in the UK and have found a doctor (after going through 4) that will test whatever I wish to keep tabs on my health (they know I use AAS).

But if your not, you may have to go privately. Another alternative is to get BW done at a needle exchange, although I havent found one that did. I think they only test the basics of lipids/live values.

cheers mate. yeh im in uk too. my mrs is tellin me to get to the doctors if i carry on goin bed only to sleep haha.

i just ran 12 weeks tri tren and test400 n i just havent had a sex drive atall 3weeks or so after. i started takin the clomid but not really done out yet, and i got some hcg yesterday i started

[Vitruvian-Man]

cheers mate. yeh im in uk too. my mrs is tellin me to get to the doctors if i carry on goin bed only to sleep haha.

i just ran 12 weeks tri tren and test400 n i just havent had a sex drive atall 3weeks or so after. i started takin the clomid but not really done out yet, and i got some hcg yesterday i started

You've been taking clomid for the past couple of weeks, and now you're planning on incorporating HCG at the end????.... HCG - which is still slightly suppressive to the HPTA...

I would reconsider that idea bro.

That's like saying you are going to do a PCT, and then once you've completed the SERMS you plan on taking proviron for 2 more weeks to aid with sex drive. noooot the greatest plan....

Just a thought..

-VM

[spncr]

tell u the truth mate i dont know jack about pct thats why i joined this website. i got a few mates who told me to get the hcg and it would sort me out. i been takin the clomid for 2weeks now

[Vitruvian-Man]

Just want to reiterate.... adding ANY compound that is suppressive, even in the slightest, to your PCT is counter-productive to the goal of a PCT/restoring your body's homeostasis.

The only exception would be using HCG at the beginning of a PCT, and following up with SERM usage.

Get yourself some cialis/viagra to help with erections. That + clomid/nolva is all you should need to recover from a simple 12 week cycle.......

-VM

[Vitruvian-Man]

tell u the truth mate i dont know jack about pct thats why i joined this website. i got a few mates who told me to get the hcg and it would sort me out. i been takin the clomid for 2weeks now

It's good you're here then bro, that's what this site is for.

If you've been on clomid for the past 2 weeks, then I would just continue with the clomid for another 2 - 3 weeks. If you can get nolvadex (tamoxifen ) quickly, then you should also add that to the mix. (IE)

Clomid: 50mg each day for the next 2 - 3 weeks + nolvadex @ 20 - 40mg each day for the same span.

Save the HCG for your next cycle. You don't need it now.

Get some cialis/viagra as I previously suggested, that will help with the ED for now.

BTW bro this is the protocol for a normal PCT (as reference for ur next cycle):

nolva: 40/40/20/20
clomid: 100/75/50/25

^^ those are daily/weekly values. (IE) 40mg nolva + 100mg clomid each day for the first week, etc..

Hope that helps ,

-VM

[spncr]

im cool with erections, its just being in the mood if u know wat i mean.
so i should be takkin the hcg first then clomid?

[Vitruvian-Man]

^^ refer to my last 2 posts for the answer to that question...

-VM

[spncr]

It's good you're here then bro, that's what this site is for.

If you've been on clomid for the past 2 weeks, then I would just continue with the clomid for another 2 - 3 weeks. If you can get nolvadex (tamoxifen ) quickly, then you should also add that to the mix. (IE)

Clomid: 50mg each day for the next 2 - 3 weeks + nolvadex @ 20 - 40mg each day for the same span.

Save the HCG for your next cycle. You don't need it now.

Get some cialis/viagra as I previously suggested, that will help with the ED for now.

BTW bro this is the protocol for a normal PCT (as reference for ur next cycle):

nolva: 40/40/20/20
clomid: 100/75/50/25

^^ those are daily/weekly values. (IE) 40mg nolva + 100mg clomid each day for the first week, etc..

Hope that helps ,

-VM

thanks for that mate. yeh ive been takin tamoxifen aswell.
but i thought that was just for stopping bitch tits.

i need to read up a lot haha

[spncr]

im not plannin on running another cycle thats all mate. im currently awaiting a court date to go to trial so if that goes tits up i dont wanna be messed up in jail haha

[Vitruvian-Man]

thanks for that mate. yeh ive been takin tamoxifen aswell.
but i thought that was just for stopping bitch tits.

i need to read up a lot haha

^^ Glad to hear a newb admitting this. And that's good of you to accept that!

tamox/clomid work together. They are both SERMS; nolvadex blocks breast receptor tissue... so you are sort of right... but not all the way there.

Read up on their profiles (at steroid .com) and you will have a much better understanding!

peace bro, and best of luck,

-VM

[spncr]

^^ Glad to hear a newb admitting this. And that's good of you to accept that!

tamox/clomid work together. They are both SERMS; nolvadex blocks breast receptor tissue... so you are sort of right... but not all the way there.

Read up on their profiles (at steroid .com) and you will have a much better understanding!

peace bro, and best of luck,

-VM

cheers mate ur a star

[G-Force]

im cool with erections, its just being in the mood if u know wat i mean.
so i should be takkin the hcg first then clomid?

try recovering from a 2 year cycle and see if your in the mood lol
JOKE

i havent even watched p0rn in over 5 months (ive given it all to the girlfriend lol)
thats when i know something is wrong

[spncr]

try recovering from a 2 year cycle and see if your in the mood lol
JOKE

i havent even watched p0rn in over 5 months (ive given it all to the girlfriend lol)
thats when i know something is wrong

im in the same boat mate. i been on and off cycles without pct for around 2years too. everytime i felt like this i just got back on some test ha

[G-Force]

for those that are interested here are some before and after pics
the one on the right was december last year at the height of my steroid use

and the one on the left was taken a week ago (may 2010) after being off cycle for 6 months and not training for 2 of those months

quite a big difference hey

Ps excuse the pink calvins and towel lol it was for a modelling shoot

[Vitruvian-Man]

Good to see you still kicking around G-Force. Hopefully the recovery is progressing smoothly.

It's pretty shocking per-say to see the before and after pics... but this is what happens when you go off AAS... all gains diminish eventually.. (something so many people just can't comprehend.)

You'll always revert back to your natural limit after time. (the amount of time is an individual thing.. but that's the only difference..)

You've still got a great base to work with though bro, don't get me wrong, not trying to put you down whatsoever.. if you put in the time, and do a natural cut, you should be able to get those abs back, and some nice definition going.

Best of luck, and thanks for the continued updates

-VM

[j4ever41]

yeah bro you lost some there but out of curosity over the last 6 months how has your diet been compared to when you were on?you might not be as far off the mark as you think if everything was constant except for aas,just a thought bro.How is your recovery going?How do you feel mentally and emotionally?