Do you typically take Nolva and Clomid at higher doses for 1 or 2 weeks in PCT?

[PistolPete33]

I've gotten mixed reviews on this. Some say to take:

Nolva: 40/20/20/20
Clomid: 100/50/50/50

Others say:

Nolva: 40/40/20/20
Clomid: 100/100/50/50

I did 12 weeks of Test C at 500mg/week shot twice. I'm on day 18 and will be starting Nolva and Clomid at 40 and 100. What is typically the better way to do PCT? I was originally going to do the higher dosage for 2 weeks but have been going back and forth on what is better. It's funny because you start out knowing EXACTLY what you are going to do but when the time comes to start doing it you start getting doubts... I guess it's human nature.

Thanks,
Pete

[Critical Mass]

Swifto's HCG and PCT Advice (Updated:08/12/09)
PCT's dont change dramatically, I dont think, even for supplement(s) cycles.

There seems to be a never ending number of, "What PCT for Sust/Deca ?", "What PCT for Dbol /Test?".

When using androgens, that cause shutdown or inhibtion, the PCT should remain, mostly, unchanged. 95% of cycles cause complete shutdown (shutdown of endogenous testosterone production). Cyles containing Testosterone or 19-Nors, will cause almost complete testicular shutdown. Therfore an aggressive PCT is needed.

Use an AI if you havent used one when "on" to lower estrogen, which is extremely suppressive (leydig cells) during PCT.

Use proven SERMs (Clomid, Nolva).

Use Tormifene, which is one of the best available SERMs for restarting a shutdown HPTA. Its also a 2nd GEN SERM and has less occular toxicity and geno-toxicity than both Tamox/Clomid and is VERY effective at raising endogenous T in studies as recent at Apr/2009.


Use HCG when "on" to maintain testicular size/function.

My advice is:

Steroid /ProHormone cycle causing HPTA shutdown (HCG may not be needed in cycles below 6 weeks IMHO)

Use HCG 125-250ius 2-3 times weekly. This will maintain testicular function by maintaining endogenous testosterone prodction and ITT (Intra-Testicular Testosterone). Using HCG throughout is the best protocol available IMHO. This is confirmed by Endocrinologists I have had contact with. It will also prevent the onset of testicular dysfunction by directly stimulating the testes.

After this peroid we then use PCT to restart GnRH from the hypothalamus and LH/FSH from the pituitary. When beginning PCT, switch to another AI also.

For more informtaion on HCG, see this thread I wrote: HCG - How important is it?

Update:

Naltrexone.

It has the ability to fool the Hypothalamus into continuing to secrete GnRH. This when signals the Pituitary to secrete LH/FSH and the Testes (Leydig cells), Testosterone. EVEN when using androgens!

I'm using it next cycle, in place of HCG as I've read some very intresting reviews on it, aswell as articles here and elsewhere.

You should use a dosage or around 5mg/wk, split up throughout. User's are experiencing NO testicular atrophy at all. This would mean GnRH is still being produced. This would mean PCT is a breaze. Some havent even needed a PCT. I'm not suggesting that, but there are some who havent needed a PCT.

You can also take Triptorelin Acetate which is GnRH agonist and will increase the amount of GnRH the body will produce. Helping futher with recovery. 100mcg/ED is the dosing protocol I have seen suggested. With the combination of Naltrexone/Triptorelin, one may be able to totally avoid HPTA shutdown.

One thing I will add is that, Naltrexone is not for everyone. It makes alot of people feel bad, so cannot be used. I have seen doses of 5-10mg/wk suggested and as much as 25-50mg/ED suggested, both by doctors. Naltrexone is a long active opoid antagonist given to heroin addicts. There is also no known clinical data on it maintaining GnRH when taking exogenous hormones (steroids ) at bodybuilding doses.

If Naltrexone isnt for you, HCG or HMG are very good alternatives and will maintain endogenous testosterone, even when taking exogenous hormones and prevent further testicular dysfunction. Some still argue this is better than Naltrexone.



Example of PCT:

wk 1-5 Clomid 25-50mg/ED OR Torm 120/60mg/ED
wk 1-5 Nolva 20mg/ED OR Torm 60mg/ED
*Aromasin 25mg/ED OR Arimidex 0.5-1mg/ED

*AI's are not always needed, especially if one has been used to control estrogen (aromatse activity) during the cycle. There is a high risk of lowering estrogen too low and that can bring its own side effects; Lowered labido, aching joints, poor cholesterol and can negatively effect the immune system. We need some estrogen, not alot, not zero, but one cannot afford a too low an estrogen level at this time of PCT.

One should also add a cortisol reducer. The best most effective and cheapest way to reduce cortisol is Vitamin C. Take 1g apon awakening and a further 1-2g PWO.

Vitamin C, Cortisol Control and PCT

Tribulas or another labido enhancer (Proviron ).

Designer Steroid/PH cycle inhibiting the HPTA


wk 1-4 Clomid 25-50mg/ED OR Torm 60mg/ED
wk 1-4 Nolva 20mg/ED

Trib or another labido enhancer.


Thats it. Read the sticky's.

There are far too many "What PCT" threads here.



For those of you that state Clomid is inferior to Tamox...

"The Columbia study evaluated the use of clomiphene citrate tablets in 36 Caucasian men with hypogonadism, which was defined as a serum testosterone level 300 ng/dl. Each patient received a daily dose of 25 mg of clomiphene citrate. The average patient age was 39 years, with 12 over age 40. The average pretreatment testosterone level was 247.6 ng/dl. All patients received the drug for at least three months; the entire group was followed for 1 year.

By the first follow-up visit, which occurred between four and six weeks of the start of therapy, the average testosterone level rose to 610 ng/dl, an increase of 146 percent compared with baseline. This response was seen in all patients regardless of age.

No patients reported any of the known side effects of clomiphene citrate, such as hot flashes, visual disturbances, or headaches. In fact, most patients reported improvements in overall well-being, sex drive, physical strength, and mood on follow-up visit interviews."


Here: http://nyp.org/news/hospital/79.html

Update:

In a recent study done on Tamox, Tore and Rolax comparing HPTA restoration. Tamoxifen can out on top. In 8 weeks, 20mg/ED of Tamoxifen increased LH from 4.54 to 7.73 and Test from 496.59 to 835.06. After two months, 60mg/day of Toremifene increased LH from 4.05 to 5.05 and Test from 496.59 to 709.79.

One thing I will say though, is that the Tore dose is at 60mg/ED for 6-8 weeks, which IMHO is a low dose fo PCT. If you've read above? You'll see that I suggest a fair bit more (120/100/60/60/60) is what I suggest now. So although this study states Tamox is superoir to Tamox, take the doses into account.

Again, even recent research on Tamox doesnt raise serum T by 146% as Clomid dose at 25mg/ED for 4-6 weeks.


Updated: 12/08/09