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  1. #1
    Swifto's Avatar
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    HCG - How important is it?

    So how important is HCG?

    When our HPTA's are "shutdown" we have to distinguish between short-term inhibtion and long-term dysfunction.

    Short-term inhibition of testosterone production comes primarily from negative feedback at the pituitary and hypothalamus, which reduces LH output. This could be described as a reduction in the signal to produce testosterone. This LH suppression recovers quickly.

    However, with time, it leads to testicular dysfunction. Without LH from the pituitary, the testes atrophy from disuse. This testicular dysfunction could be described as a reduction in the responsiveness to a signal to produce testosterone.

    The hypothalamus and pituitary seem to recover fairly quickly following the use of androgens. GnRH, LH and FSH rise fairly quickly post cycle, but endogenous testosterone levels dont. As confirmed in this review by William Llewellyn. It shows that LH levels rise fairly quickly (on the 3rd week) after Testosterone Enanthate injections of 250mg weekly for 21 weeks. So it seems the hypothalamus and pituitary are not the problem in restarting endogenous testosterone production post cycle.

    After recent correspondance with Dr.Crisler (Swale) he confirmed ganadotrophin levels were not to blame in restarting the HPTA. So what is?

    If LH levels rise post cycle (the majority of the time) the reason why endogenous testosterone levels DONT rise, is the testes. Or testicular dysfunction. Testicular dysfunction is when the testes become atrophied from disuse or desensitised to ganadotrophins, such as LH. This could also be described as being the onset of primary hypogonadism.

    Primary hypogonadism is when the testes no longer respond to LH. The testes have a lowered sperm concentration/production and endogenous testosterone level, although LH and FSH are above normal levels. This can be due to desease (Klinefelter's syndrome), over use of anabolic steroids , as described in this study or overuse of HCG . The simple answer to primary hypogonadism is HRT.

    So if the testes (testicular dysfunction) are the main culprit in restoring testosterone production post cycle how can we maintain testicular function and endogenous testosterone production even when "shutdown" using andorgens? Simple - HCG.

    HCG has the ability to maintain endogenous testosterone production and ITT (Intra-Testicular Testosterone) by stimulating the testes (directly) even when shutdown from androgens, such as Testosterone Enathate, shown in this study.

    HCG is VERY important in cycles IMHO. It prevents the main reason the HPTA doesnt recover immediately post cycle - testicular dysfunction. It should be a staple of EVERY cycle causing shutdown IMHO.

    I suggest HCG be used at 125-250ius 2-3 times weekly (as per Dr.Crisler's advice) with an AI throughout the cycle lasting 6-12 weeks. This will maintain testicular size and function and prevent testicular dysfunction. It should also be noted that administering over "500ius will cause an increase in estrogen and progesterone, further hindering recovery" - Dr.Crisler.


    For those wanting to convert their HCG doses into something more managable. Here's how:

    HCG comes in 1500ius and 5000ius amps. Usually from Pregnyl. Chinese suppliers also stock their HCG in these two denominations too.

    You need to get some sterile empty 10ML glass serum vials. You can get these from AR-R .

    You also need to get some bac. water. If you were to mix 5000ius with 10ML bac. water, 1ML = 500ius. If you were to mix 1500ius with 10ML bac. water, 1ML = 150ius.

    Once mixed, refridgerate. I tend to use my mixed HCG within 30-45 days.

    Its really that simple.


    This thread has been written on correspondance from Dr.Crisler (Swale), Concilliator and my own research gathered.
    Last edited by Swifto; 02-20-2010 at 08:22 AM.

  2. #2
    .EA.'s Avatar
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    Great thread.

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    Good read. Some prefer to start HCG in the last 2 weeks of their cycle I included.

  4. #4
    Swifto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aizen Sosuke View Post
    Good read. Some prefer to start HCG in the last 2 weeks of their cycle I included.
    This can be done. However, a larger dose would be needed to get the disired effect of restarting the testes or "shocking" them. I think the best protocol is when HCG is used throughout at a moderate dose. This is also what Endo's seem to agree on.

  5. #5
    bmit is offline Member
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    I am of the same mind. HCG is not that expensive and it prevents your nuts from shutting down. Makes recovery that much easier. Don't see why more people don't use it. They should be instructed to by this board. Most people who don't recommend it say "you don't need it". Silly. You don't "need" steroids either.

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    TITANIUM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swifto View Post
    This can be done. However, a larger dose would be needed to get the disired effect of restarting the testes or "shocking" them. I think the best protocol is when HCG is used throughout at a moderate dose. This is also what Endo's seem to agree on.
    Agreed.

    I am a big advocate with HCG .


    I actually run 500 iu's ed for 20 days at the end of the cycle.

    It then overlaps clomid and tamo therapy by about 5 days.

    Works with great results.

    If I run it at , say 125 iu's x2 wk, during cycle, would it then still be ran at 500 iu's ed at the last 2 wks of the cycle???

  7. #7
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    Good information

  8. #8
    Swifto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TITANIUM View Post
    Agreed.

    I am a big advocate with HCG .


    I actually run 500 iu's ed for 20 days at the end of the cycle.

    It then overlaps clomid and tamo therapy by about 5 days.

    Works with great results.

    If I run it at , say 125 iu's x2 wk, during cycle, would it then still be ran at 500 iu's ed at the last 2 wks of the cycle???

    I dont think you'll need to run it again at a higher dose at the end of the cycle, no. That doesnt seem to be what Dr.Crisler suggests if its been used throughout 2-3 times weekly. Remember, too much will hinder recovery by raising estrogen levels (not only through aromotase) and progesterone levels.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swifto View Post
    This can be done. However, a larger dose would be needed to get the disired effect of restarting the testes or "shocking" them. I think the best protocol is when HCG is used throughout at a moderate dose. This is also what Endo's seem to agree on.
    Agreed. The dose would have to be in the 500-1000iu EOD.

  10. #10
    adam_merseal is offline New Member
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    Good stuff. A must read in my opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swifto View Post
    I dont think you'll need to run it again at a higher dose at the end of the cycle, no. That doesnt seem to be what Dr.Crisler suggests if its been used throughout 2-3 times weekly. Remember, too much will hinder recovery by raising estrogen levels (not only through aromotase) and progesterone levels.


    Understood.

    Great post, buy the way.

    I will run it in this format my next cycle.

  12. #12
    Matt's Avatar
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    Great post lol, well worth waiting for....

    A must read for everyone....

  13. #13
    vaders4 is offline Member
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    Great info, now if only my toolbag sources around me could get HCG I'd be set hahaha..

    Def going to wait until I get some HCG.

  14. #14
    dec11's Avatar
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    ran hcg on my previous cycle, came off wit no probs, didnt use it last time around, was depressed as a muthatrucker!!!!

  15. #15
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    Great post Swifto

  16. #16
    Hazard's Avatar
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    Great post swifto!

    I used HCG in my last cycle and i noticed a HUGE difference durring my PCT. I swear it seemed like i was still gaining in my pct...... i'm about 6 weeks post cycle now and i feel great.....

    ~Haz~
    Failure is not and option..... ONLY beyond failure is - Haz

    Think beyond yourselves and remember this forum is for educated members to help advise SAFE usage of AAS, not just tell you what you want to hear
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  17. #17
    JK-87's Avatar
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    Great post, well worth the read.

  18. #18
    M302_Imola's Avatar
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    so if one is running 12 weeks of test E at 500mg/week and 10 weeks of Deca at 400mg/week when would one administer HCG and at what dosage? Great read by the way!

  19. #19
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    I used hcg for the first time recently. I'm into my third week of pct and I am still strong as could be and haven't lost any size. Usually during pct I feel small and weak.....not this time.

  20. #20
    Hazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M302_Imola View Post
    so if one is running 12 weeks of test E at 500mg/week and 10 weeks of Deca at 400mg/week when would one administer HCG and at what dosage? Great read by the way!

    I would start at week 4 and run it through week 14 at 250iu's 3x a week.....

    ~Haz~
    Failure is not and option..... ONLY beyond failure is - Haz

    Think beyond yourselves and remember this forum is for educated members to help advise SAFE usage of AAS, not just tell you what you want to hear
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  21. #21
    CBGB's Avatar
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    Forgive me.... If taking HCG during cycle should it affect PCT dosing?

  22. #22
    Hazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CBGB View Post
    Forgive me.... If taking HCG during cycle should it affect PCT dosing?
    What exactly do you mean?

    should it affect your clomid/nolva dosing..... or should it affect HCG in pct?

    I did clomid 100,50,50,50 and nolva 40,40,20,20 (had a little lump so ran nolva at 40 for another week)

    I wouldn't run HCG in pct.....

    ~Haz~
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    Think beyond yourselves and remember this forum is for educated members to help advise SAFE usage of AAS, not just tell you what you want to hear
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  23. #23
    CBGB's Avatar
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    Should it affect clomid/ nolva dosing?

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    CBGB's Avatar
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    Perhaps I don't quite understand how this works.

    What I'm getting at is. If the HCG aids in recovery/ prevents complete shut-down. Does pct need to be as long and at the same dosage as it would without the HCG?

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by CBGB View Post
    Should it affect clomid/ nolva dosing?
    No..... you'll still have test in your system...... still shut down. I'd keep dosing the same. Worked like a charm for me The HCG should helpo you recover faster..... but not while still on cycle.

    ~Haz~
    Failure is not and option..... ONLY beyond failure is - Haz

    Think beyond yourselves and remember this forum is for educated members to help advise SAFE usage of AAS, not just tell you what you want to hear
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  26. #26
    CBGB's Avatar
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    Thank you very much.

    Nice thread SWIFTO. Great information

  27. #27
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    Bump..

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcus300 View Post
    Good information
    Agree. Used hcg my last cycle during the last 5 weeks leading up to my pct. I did 2 500iu shots a week for 5 weeks then started pct and recovered much quicker then previously on a lighter cycle without hcg!
    This time im using hcg throughout the entire cycle to see if theres any difference between throughout cycle for me or higher dose at the end leading up to pct. I start my hcg at week 4 (using long esters) and doing 250iu shots twice a week, same as my test and deca shots. Guess ill know 14 weeks later the results, haha!

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazard View Post
    No..... you'll still have test in your system...... still shut down. I'd keep dosing the same. Worked like a charm for me The HCG should helpo you recover faster..... but not while still on cycle.

    ~Haz~
    Yep! I dont see why anyone would not use hcg on cycle? I mean, it so beneficial, dirt cheap and never ever faked, just a couple shots a week of .1ml depending on how u dose/mix it, so many reasons to use it and not one reason not to use it!

  30. #30
    Swifto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wukillabee View Post
    Yep! I dont see why anyone would not use hcg on cycle? I mean, it so beneficial, dirt cheap and never ever faked, just a couple shots a week of .1ml depending on how u dose/mix it, so many reasons to use it and not one reason not to use it!
    Exactly.

    Some seem to get away without it though. Or so it seems short term.

    HCG should be a part or almost every cycle IMHO.

  31. #31
    lift2win is offline Junior Member
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    great read swifto. my one question that i am curious about is 3 weeks into a cycle to late to start? i dont believe i will already be shut down by then. i am running 500mg sust a week and 50mg dbol 6 days a week. so if i do 250iu hcg twice a week keep my testicles in check and normal size?

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazard View Post
    I would start at week 4 and run it through week 14 at 250iu's 3x a week.....

    ~Haz~
    thanks bro!

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    Great read, eye opening for me

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by lift2win View Post
    great read swifto. my one question that i am curious about is 3 weeks into a cycle to late to start? i dont believe i will already be shut down by then. i am running 500mg sust a week and 50mg dbol 6 days a week. so if i do 250iu hcg twice a week keep my testicles in check and normal size?
    I dont think it will be too late to start, no. You may initially need slightly more. Try 500ius 2 or 3 times the first week, then down to 125-250ius.

  35. #35
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    Ok what if you don't care about your testicles shrinking, should you still take HCG during cycle? I've got 2-3 weeks until I start my cycle and still am considering if I should get some HCG or not.

    12 weeks test e and 4 weeks dbol , what do i risk by not using hcg during this cycle other than not getting testicular shrinkage?

    Will just clomid and nolva not be enough to get you back to normal?

  36. #36
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    That just about sums up any questions i had on HCG .

    Good post.

  37. #37
    jab1234 is offline Junior Member
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    whats the shortest cycle length that you feel HCG is necessary? For example would a 6 week cycle require HCG or is it short enough not to worry about complete shutdown?

  38. #38
    Swifto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xnotoriousx View Post
    Ok what if you don't care about your testicles shrinking, should you still take HCG during cycle? I've got 2-3 weeks until I start my cycle and still am considering if I should get some HCG or not.

    12 weeks test e and 4 weeks dbol , what do i risk by not using hcg during this cycle other than not getting testicular shrinkage?

    Will just clomid and nolva not be enough to get you back to normal?
    Its not jsut about your testes "shrinking". When there not used, they become desensitised to ganadotrophins. You need to keep them stimulated if you want to avoid the onset of testicular dysfunction.

  39. #39
    Swifto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jab1234 View Post
    whats the shortest cycle length that you feel HCG is necessary? For example would a 6 week cycle require HCG or is it short enough not to worry about complete shutdown?
    This is a tricky question.

    Marcus300 is probably the best personal to ask this. He has done both short high dosed cycles and lengthy ones.

    Using HCG at low/moderate doses will benifit your testes during times of shutdown. Cycles over 4 weeks when the HPTA is fully shutdown is when I'd include HCG.

  40. #40
    tembe's Avatar
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    do you believe hcg is needed on a 10 week cycle of 500mg test e and 35mg dbol 4 week kickstart?

    Its my first cycle and im in week 3.

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