HCG - How important is it?

[Swifto]

Is the use of an AI a must while using HCG during cycle?
Can I just try first with nolva?

You can, yes. But elevated estrogen levels can cause more problems in males than estrogen kept in low/moderate doses. Its personal preference, but I like to keep estrogen controlled. That way I can control my small case of gyno, acne and water retention.

HCG just casuses more estrogen. Via direct action on the testes to secrete more estrogen and through other pathways (aromotase).

[Lethalius]

What about for someone on Test indefinitely, for a period of years (not a cycle)? Is it safe to use HCG at 125 to 250 iu's, 2 to 3 times/week indefinitely? Lastly, if I am on 750mg/wk of test en for 1 year now, what dose of HCG should I start at before I ramp down to 125-250 ius?

Thanks in advance,

So how important is HCG?

When our HPTA's are "shutdown" we have to distinguish between short-term inhibtion and long-term dysfunction.

Short-term inhibition of testosterone production comes primarily from negative feedback at the pituitary and hypothalamus, which reduces LH output. This could be described as a reduction in the signal to produce testosterone. This LH suppression recovers quickly.

However, with time, it leads to testicular dysfunction. Without LH from the pituitary, the testes atrophy from disuse. This testicular dysfunction could be described as a reduction in the responsiveness to a signal to produce testosterone.

The hypothalamus and pituitary seem to recover fairly quickly following the use of androgens. GnRH, LH and FSH rise fairly quickly post cycle, but endogenous testosterone levels dont. As confirmed in this review by William Llewellyn. It shows that LH levels rise fairly quickly (on the 3rd week) after Testosterone Enanthate injections of 250mg weekly for 21 weeks. So it seems the hypothalamus and pituitary are not the problem in restarting endogenous testosterone production post cycle.

After recent correspondance with Dr.Crisler (Swale) he confirmed ganadotrophin levels were not to blame in restarting the HPTA. So what is?

If LH levels rise post cycle (the majority of the time) the reason why endogenous testosterone levels DONT rise, is the testes. Or testicular dysfunction. Testicular dysfunction is when the testes become atrophied from disuse or desensitised to ganadotrophins, such as LH. This could also be described as being the onset of primary hypogonadism.

Primary hypogonadism is when the testes no longer respond to LH. The testes have a lowered sperm concentration/production and endogenous testosterone level, although LH and FSH are above normal levels. This can be due to desease (Klinefelter's syndrome), over use of anabolic steroids , as described in this study or overuse of HCG. The simple answer to primary hypogonadism is HRT.

So if the testes (testicular dysfunction) are the main culprit in restoring testosterone production post cycle how can we maintain testicular function and endogenous testosterone production even when "shutdown" using andorgens? Simple - HCG.

HCG has the ability to maintain endogenous testosterone production and ITT (Intra-Testicular Testosterone) by stimulating the testes (directly) even when shutdown from androgens, such as Testosterone Enathate, shown in this study.

HCG is VERY important in cycles IMHO. It prevents the main reason the HPTA doesnt recover immediately post cycle - testicular dysfunction. It should be a staple of EVERY cycle causing shutdown IMHO.

I suggest HCG be used at 125-250ius 2-3 times weekly (as per Dr.Crisler's advice) with an AI throughout the cycle. This will maintain testicular size and function and prevent testicular dysfunction. It should also be noted that administering over "500ius will cause an increase in estrogen and progesterone, further hindering recovery" - Dr.Crisler.


For those wanting to convert their HCG doses into something more managable. Here's how:

HCG comes in 1500ius and 5000ius amps. Usually from Pregnyl. Chinese suppliers also stock their HCG in these two denominations too.

You need to get some sterile empty 10ML glass serum vials. You can get these from AR-R .

You also need to get some bac. water. If you were to mix 5000ius with 10ML bac. water, 1ML = 500ius. If you were to mix 1500ius with 10ML bac. water, 1ML = 150ius.

Once mixed, refridgerate. I tend to use my mixed HCG within 30-45 days.

Its really that simple.


This thread has been written on correspondance from Dr.Crisler (Swale), Concilliator and my own research gathered.

[Swifto]

What about for someone on Test indefinitely, for a period of years (not a cycle)? Is it safe to use HCG at 125 to 250 iu's, 2 to 3 times/week indefinitely? Lastly, if I am on 750mg/wk of test en for 1 year now, what dose of HCG should I start at before I ramp down to 125-250 ius?

Thanks in advance,

You'de be better posting this in the HRT and Anti-Ageing Forum. I'm not on HRT and have no personal experience with HCG/HRT.

From my understanding, it would be for cosmetic and fertility purposes. Otherwise I dont see the point. Your on HRT and not coming off, so HPTA function is of no, or little interest at all. Contact Big, he's on HRT and uses HCG.

This thread and article was written on advice given based on average cycles of 6-12 or so weeks, using exogenous androgens that cause full cessation of ganadotropins. It doesnt state use HCG "indefinitely" anywhere and that shouldnt be assumed. I'm going to add something along those lines to clear up any confusion.

Why do you ant to use HCG at all after 1 year? Are you coming off now?

If your thinking of coming off, larger initial doses of HCG may be required to restart testicular function.

[Lethalius]

I am thinking of coming down to HRT doses of 100-200mg/wk of test and see how I like it. I may try that for several months and HGH at 4 iu's ed and see
how my body responds. Coming off all the way makes me fear I will lose too much muscle.

I have been mostly "on" for in excess of 2 to 3 years now and my testes have definitely decreased in size. I am wondering if I came off completely, if my body's HPTA could recover all the way? I really think I am going to need to be on low dose HRT the rest of my life given my past aas use/abuse and if I use HGH with it, maybe it will be okay for me.

You'de be better posting this in the HRT and Anti-Ageing Forum. I'm not on HRT and have no personal experience with HCG /HRT.

From my understanding, it would be for cosmetic and fertility purposes. Otherwise I dont see the point. Your on HRT and not coming off, so HPTA function is of no, or little interest at all. Contact Big, he's on HRT and uses HCG.

This thread and article was written on advice given based on average cycles of 6-12 or so weeks, using exogenous androgens that cause full cessation of ganadotropins. It doesnt state use HCG "indefinitely" anywhere and that shouldnt be assumed. I'm going to add something along those lines to clear up any confusion.

Why do you ant to use HCG at all after 1 year? Are you coming off now?

If your thinking of coming off, larger initial doses of HCG may be required to restart testicular function.

[Little Herc]

I'm gonna run some with my summer cycle. How much would I need for a 12 week cycle run thoughout?

[Swifto]

I am thinking of coming down to HRT doses of 100-200mg/wk of test and see how I like it. I may try that for several months and HGH at 4 iu's ed and see
how my body responds. Coming off all the way makes me fear I will lose too much muscle.

I have been mostly "on" for in excess of 2 to 3 years now and my testes have definitely decreased in size. I am wondering if I came off completely, if my body's HPTA could recover all the way? I really think I am going to need to be on low dose HRT the rest of my life given my past aas use/abuse and if I use HGH with it, maybe it will be okay for me.

If your thinking of coming off, you may need HCG . Because the testis have become atrophied from disuse, you'de be suffering from testicular dysfunction. That would warrant the use of HCG.

You need to first figure out if your suffering from primary or secondary hypogonadism.

[bboynoir]

Hello If i am on a light deca cycle only of 250mg a week do you think HCG would help me to use throughout my cycle and PCT?Does it help with libido loss?And at what dosage??

[Juice Authority]

Hello If i am on a light deca cycle only of 250mg a week do you think HCG would help me to use throughout my cycle and PCT?Does it help with libido loss?And at what dosage??

Deca only? Why?

[bboynoir]

because i dont want any dramatic changes in my body because i breakdance and i just aimfor 3 kilograms.I just hope the side effects can be avoided with HCG .I mean deca d**k and stuff.But my dosage is so small so maybe it's ok any opinions will be a great help.

[O_TownKID613]

if you run HCG throughout at a moderate dose on a cycle of all fast acting esters should you continue use 2 weeks after cycle as well or discontinue the use

[Swifto]

I'm gonna run some with my summer cycle. How much would I need for a 12 week cycle run thoughout?

My protocol is based on exactly that.

250ius 2-3 times per week.

[Swifto]

if you run HCG throughout at a moderate dose on a cycle of all fast acting esters should you continue use 2 weeks after cycle as well or discontinue the use

Discontinue.

[bboynoir]

swifto can u help me with my question?its just some posts above!

[Swifto]

because i dont want any dramatic changes in my body because i breakdance and i just aimfor 3 kilograms.I just hope the side effects can be avoided with HCG.I mean deca d**k and stuff.But my dosage is so small so maybe it's ok any opinions will be a great help.

You dont need AAS to "gain 3 kilo's". Post your diet in the Diet Forum.

You shouldnt get "Deca dick" when using a testosterone preperation alongside it.

[bboynoir]

You dont need AAS to "gain 3 kilo's". Post your diet in the Diet Forum.

You shouldnt get "Deca dick" when using a testosterone preperation alongside it.

thanks man.So its ok to use like 2-3 HCG injections a week when i am on deca cycle right?Anything ekse I should take as a precaution?

[Swifto]

thanks man.So its ok to use like 2-3 HCG injections a week when i am on deca cycle right?Anything ekse I should take as a precaution?

You should be using a form of Test with the Deca . Such as Enanthate , Cypionate or Propionate . Then combine Test/Deca with HCG for upto 12-14 weeks with an AI.

[bboynoir]

oh...man i'm a little diasapointed..can't i just do something else instead of using test ?I only want to use 1 steroid and thats deca ..

[MotoLifter]

oh...man i'm a little diasapointed..can't i just do something else instead of using test ?I only want to use 1 steroid and thats deca..

then do what you want. 50 people have said dont do it andhave listed 100 reasons why not to and you refuse to listen. So go ahead and do it and have fun.


Moto

[O_TownKID613]

man u always need test bro for ne thing as ur base if u wanna use another type of steroid or u will shut down around 3 weeks after and feel like shit believe me when i was younger and didnt know shit about ne thing i took winny all alone for 5 weeeks biggest mistake of my life lol lost everything i gained got depressed and went looking worse than i did before my cycle

[Madmax209]

It's better to use AI (preferably which one) or nolvadex , while using HCG throughout the cycle? What I read, nolvadex is often suggested to use with HCG (helps stop HCG from de-sensitizing testicles to natural LH). Do AI provide same effect? Do you recommend higher dose of HCG when on cycle with higher dose of test (about 3g weekly) or keep the dose same (250iu)? Thanks

[Swifto]

It's better to use AI (preferably which one) or nolvadex, while using HCG throughout the cycle? What I read, nolvadex is often suggested to use with HCG (helps stop HCG from de-sensitizing testicles to natural LH). Do AI provide same effect? Do you recommend higher dose of HCG when on cycle with higher dose of test (about 3g weekly) or keep the dose same (250iu)? Thanks

You need to experiement and see what works for you. I can get away with 250ius 2x week from starting week 1-3 and ending 1-2 weeks away from PCT. I your going to be starting HCG IN the cycle not throughout a larger doses will be required.

I use Aromasin 10mg/ED or EOD (depending on Test dose) during the cycle.

[mg1228]

quick question before i mix---using a slin pin---got 5000iu vial--do i mix 100 units af ba water to get 500iu per 10units?

i know u covered this in op--but the 1ml thing threw me off---thats 1 cc right?

[Swifto]

quick question before i mix---using a slin pin---got 5000iu vial--do i mix 100 units af ba water to get 500iu per 10units?

i know u covered this in op--but the 1ml thing threw me off---thats 1 cc right?

1 CC = 1 ML

5000ius mixed with 10ml bac water is 500ius/ml.

[mg1228]

So 100 units of ba water in a slin pin mixed with 5000 iu vial of hcg aint 500 ius per 10 units?

I need to use a regular syringe and mix 10 cc--correct?

How many ius would I have been taking if I mixed it with 100 units ba water per 10 units?

[Kibble]

10 units would be a microscopic injection lol.

Swifto put it in the easiest mathematical solution possible- I like that.

I say to just mix 5-10ml of bac water with 5,000ius of hCG . It can't get any easier than that. I am making a new batch today when I get home

[mg1228]

it wouldnt b microscopic if u mixed 100units to a 5000iu vial----- i wanted to know how many iu per 10 units if a 5000 iu vial was mixed with 100 units of ba water---thanks anyway big kuntry

[DS21]

Great post! I always learn so much from your post, thanks!

[Kibble]

It would be 1/10 of a cc for 500iu of hCG

[mg1228]

It would be 1/10 of a cc for 500iu of hCG

wouldnt that b 10 units on a slin pin?----100 units=1cc

thats the way i did it on my last cycle---i mixed 100 units to a 5000iu vial of hcg ---then i took 10 units---which i thought wouldve been 500iu

am i wrong---or am i missing something

[AlphaGenetics]

Since Im very gyno prone would I need to run more ai during my cycle if I used hcg throughout? Would this inhibit gains even more for me?

[Kibble]

wouldnt that b 10 units on a slin pin?----100 units=1cc

thats the way i did it on my last cycle---i mixed 100 units to a 5000iu vial of hcg ---then i took 10 units---which i thought wouldve been 500iu

am i wrong---or am i missing something

You are right

[mg1228]

so u guys are pinnin 1 cc of hcg sub q with a slin pin?

[Kibble]

I pin 1/4cc (2.5 mark) on the insulin pin for 250iu

[americanoak]

so say you order 5000IU of HCG , you would mix the HCG with the 10ml of bac water all at once and then every time you need to use it you take it from the same 10ml bottle? Or everytime you want to take it you have to mix the hcg with the water and then take t?

[mg1228]

mix it all at once--i take it when u need it---should last about 30 days in the fridge

[americanoak]

Ok, that is what i thought.
Thanks Mg.

[mg1228]

so there is nothing wrong with the way i do it? 100 units ba water mixed with 5000 iu vial---to get 500 iu per 10 units

[mg1228]

the other way ur just pinnin more ba water than necessary, right?

[Swifto]

so there is nothing wrong with the way i do it? 100 units ba water mixed with 5000 iu vial---to get 500 iu per 10 units

I dont have a Slin pin near me, but mine hold a maximum of 1ML. Which I think is 100units. Forget about the units on the Slin pin, thats confusing you...

HCG 5000ius mixed with 10ML = 500ius per ML.

That means the entire Slin pin filled is 500ius. Just remember Slin pins hold a maximim of 1ML and go from there. Half full is 250ius of HCG.

[mg1228]

that just seems like alot of fluid to inject subq--i get a little lump ingecting 2ius of gh