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  1. #41
    Hazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tembe View Post
    do you believe hcg is needed on a 10 week cycle of 500mg test e and 35mg dbol 4 week kickstart?

    Its my first cycle and im in week 3.
    If you can get it..... I personally would run it. It's not going to kill you if you don't run it but it does make recovery easier.....

    ~Haz~
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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by tembe View Post
    do you believe hcg is needed on a 10 week cycle of 500mg test e and 35mg dbol 4 week kickstart?

    Its my first cycle and im in week 3.
    Same thing i'm about to run and I won't be using it, but after reading all of this, I have to wonder how dumb of a decision that might be....

  3. #43
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    how would i use it as i can only get it by around week 7-8?

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by tembe View Post
    how would i use it as i can only get it by around week 7-8?
    Start at 500ius 3 times for the first 2 weeks, then back down to 250ius 2-3 times weekly until you finish your cycle. If your not using an AI, you may want to add one due to the increase in estrogen.

  5. #45
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    Bump

  6. #46
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    Good read. I will never cycle without hcg or AI ever again.

  7. #47
    LIONKING123 is offline New Member
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    Hi,

    Finished a 7 week cycle 3 weeks ago.

    Is it to late to start HCG as testes still shrunk?
    Using Nolva 20mg for PCT for last 2 week

  8. #48
    RusselGaint is offline New Member
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    So if your in a 12week cycle, then you starts your first shot of hcg at week4. do you take it throughout your cycle for 8weeks? i heard some people say they wont run it longer than 4weeks.

  9. #49
    sizerp is offline Banned
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    What about a 6-8 week cycle of Prop? HCG really needed?

  10. #50
    sizerp is offline Banned
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    What about running HMG in combination with HCG for a couple weeks?... Or in place of HCG altogether? Why isn't this discussed more?

  11. #51
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    If you start the HCG from week 4 - 15, When do you start the AI. Is it week 1 or the same time you start the HCG.

    And do you finish the AI at end of cycle or carry on till pct?

    Thanks guys

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by LIONKING123 View Post
    Hi,

    Finished a 7 week cycle 3 weeks ago.

    Is it to late to start HCG as testes still shrunk?
    Using Nolva 20mg for PCT for last 2 week
    HCG during PCT is counterproductive IMHO. Its best used during, not in PCT.

    Stay on the Tamox for a few more weeks, it will raise endogenous T considerably.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by RusselGaint View Post
    So if your in a 12week cycle, then you starts your first shot of hcg at week4. do you take it throughout your cycle for 8weeks? i heard some people say they wont run it longer than 4weeks.
    Start with 500ius 3 times in the first week (week 4), then back down to 250ius 2-3 times weekly until PCT starts.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by sizerp View Post
    What about a 6-8 week cycle of Prop? HCG really needed?
    You can probably get away with not using it, but it will maintain testicular size and function when shutdown so it wont hurt at all. If you can get it, use it.

    Quote Originally Posted by sizerp View Post
    What about running HMG in combination with HCG for a couple weeks?... Or in place of HCG altogether? Why isn't this discussed more?
    I actually dont know an awful lot about HMG. Other than it mimics FSH, which is primarily for sperm prodction in the testes.

    I'm looking into HMG at present.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skippa View Post
    If you start the HCG from week 4 - 15, When do you start the AI. Is it week 1 or the same time you start the HCG.

    And do you finish the AI at end of cycle or carry on till pct?

    Thanks guys
    Start the AI when you start the HCG.

    Run the AI until the day before PCT begins.

  16. #56
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    Swifto:
    great read man..ur posts are the best bro, please keep the info coming....

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swifto View Post
    HCG during PCT is counterproductive IMHO. Its best used during, not in PCT.

    Stay on the Tamox for a few more weeks, it will raise endogenous T considerably.
    Thanks too Swifto!

    Anything i can do to counteract the rise in endogenous T with Nolva?
    Testes are still shrunk too. As i've missed the window for HCG....anything else i can do?

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by LIONKING123 View Post
    Thanks too Swifto!

    Anything i can do to counteract the rise in endogenous T with Nolva?
    Testes are still shrunk too. As i've missed the window for HCG....anything else i can do?

    clomid and nolva together ought to do the trick...... if that doesn't work.... i mite try a low dose of HCG for a week or two as thats what my fathers HRT doc prescribes..... but the clomid/nolva ougt to doit.

    ~Haz~
    Failure is not and option..... ONLY beyond failure is - Haz

    Think beyond yourselves and remember this forum is for educated members to help advise SAFE usage of AAS, not just tell you what you want to hear
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  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by LIONKING123 View Post
    Thanks too Swifto!

    Anything i can do to counteract the rise in endogenous T with Nolva?
    Testes are still shrunk too. As i've missed the window for HCG....anything else i can do?
    The Tamox and Clomid will bring them back, although it maybe a short while.

    HCG will also bring them back sooner, becuase it directly stimulates the testes. If the SERMs dont bring back testicular size/volume after 5-6 weeks, use some HCG or HMG. Then back on the SERMs.

  20. #60
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    it was mentioned to take hcg during cycle with ai.

    does hcg or ai effect gains while on test at all?

    i thought ia did which is why people take it only if needed.

  21. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazy_rocks View Post
    it was mentioned to take hcg during cycle with ai.

    does hcg or ai effect gains while on test at all?

    i thought ia did which is why people take it only if needed.
    If you can get away with not using one, dont. Some use AI's and are fine. Meaning their gains are only marginally reduced. I think the benifit of running an AI outweigh the negatives, for me anyway.

    Others tend to use SERMs or DHT-derivatives to counter estrogenic sides.

  22. #62
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    so could i just take hcg during my cycle of test without other ai's?

  23. #63
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    Last edited by TwoGuns; 09-01-2009 at 06:13 PM. Reason: brain fart

  24. #64
    King JRoc is offline Junior Member
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    Great thread!!!

    I am trying to find some hcg for my upcoming cycle with not much success...

    Is there any alternatives I could try to find that might replace the hcg???

  25. #65
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    maybe i should rephrase my question.

    for the specific side effect of ball shrinkage hcg is good alone correct?

  26. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazy_rocks View Post
    maybe i should rephrase my question.

    for the specific side effect of ball shrinkage hcg is good alone correct?
    yup.... 250iu's 2-3 times a week - they shouldn't shrink

    ~Haz~
    Failure is not and option..... ONLY beyond failure is - Haz

    Think beyond yourselves and remember this forum is for educated members to help advise SAFE usage of AAS, not just tell you what you want to hear
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  27. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazy_rocks View Post
    so could i just take hcg during my cycle of test without other ai's?
    It depends how prone to estrogenic sides you are.

  28. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazy_rocks View Post
    maybe i should rephrase my question.

    for the specific side effect of ball shrinkage hcg is good alone correct?
    Yes but also note that the use of HCG on cycle will increase estrogen which could lead to more sides...this is why an AI is suggested to run along-side the HCG.

  29. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by M302_Imola View Post
    Yes but also note that the use of HCG on cycle will increase estrogen which could lead to more sides...this is why an AI is suggested to run along-side the HCG.
    understood, thanx everyone.

  30. #70
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    How exactly is HCG shot? Is it IM like the test or otherwise? I am 9 wks in a test cyp cycle. I wasn't planning on using HCG, but think I want to use along with Nolva and aromasin in PCT. So what size pins will I need?

    Test cycle is 500mg/wk for 14wks

  31. #71
    sizerp is offline Banned
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    Sub-Q... my mom shoots this shit... if she can do it, anyone can.

  32. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by sizerp View Post
    Sub-Q... my mom shoots this shit... if she can do it, anyone can.
    w/ an insulin needle?

  33. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by M302_Imola View Post
    w/ an insulin needle?
    yes......

  34. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swifto View Post
    This can be done. However, a larger dose would be needed to get the disired effect of restarting the testes or "shocking" them. I think the best protocol is when HCG is used throughout at a moderate dose. This is also what Endo's seem to agree on.
    It would not be wiser for a novice on his first cycle to avoid putting to many drugs throughout the cycle?
    Might be your advices more effectives to those who already have a direct experience and know the way their bodies go through?
    I mean I could run a 10W cycle with Test 500mg EW (2 shots) and in the last 2W using HCG 500iu ED + Nolva 20mg ED. Then 2W rest and start the PCT with Nolva, Clomid and an AI on hand.
    What would you do if you were me?
    Thank you very much, I appreciate it.

  35. #75
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    man i just finsh my cut cycle from 1 week it was 12 weeks cycle ..so can i start taking hcg or it too late .. thankss all

  36. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by BJJ View Post
    It would not be wiser for a novice on his first cycle to avoid putting to many drugs throughout the cycle?
    Might be your advices more effectives to those who already have a direct experience and know the way their bodies go through?
    I mean I could run a 10W cycle with Test 500mg EW (2 shots) and in the last 2W using HCG 500iu ED + Nolva 20mg ED. Then 2W rest and start the PCT with Nolva, Clomid and an AI on hand.
    What would you do if you were me?
    Thank you very much, I appreciate it.
    That protocol would work and should bring the testes back, yes.

    Although I think (next time you cycle) using it throughout at a low dose is best. That way testicular dysfunction can be avoided.

    I dont think its a question of using the least amount of drugs for someone conducting their first cycle. You want to be able to bounce back successfully and using HCG or HMG during your cycle is the most effective protocol.

  37. #77
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    Just thought I'd share something on HMG -

    This is a post by Pp.

    "HCG is not really lh - leutenizing hormone - , it mimicks lh - leutenizing hormone - but it has a much longer half life of about 3-4 DAYS. Because of its longer half life it tends to quickly reduce the testes sensitivity because it ‘lingers’ in the system for so long. The lh - leutenizing hormone - that your body produces naturally has a half life of only about an hour, and is released in hourly bursts throughout the day.

    HMG is generally only considered for fertility, but it actually is pretty awesome for PCT - post cycle therapy - . The only downside is the price, since you need 1 amp TWO to THREE times a day for the maximum effect, and this can get quite expensive. But since its bio-identical to the body’s natural gonadotropins it is highly effective to stimulating testosterone production. Plus is has the added synergy of FSH - follicle stimulating hormone - , which increases the testes sensitivity to lh - leutenizing hormone - , thus allowing the testes to produce more testosterone.

    -Pp"

  38. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swifto View Post
    That protocol would work and should bring the testes back, yes.

    Although I think (next time you cycle) using it throughout at a low dose is best. That way testicular dysfunction can be avoided.

    I dont think its a question of using the least amount of drugs for someone conducting their first cycle. You want to be able to bounce back successfully and using HCG or HMG during your cycle is the most effective protocol.
    Thanks a lot for your reply and suggestions.

  39. #79
    roid_rage is offline Associate Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swifto View Post

    So if the testes (testicular dysfunction) are the main culprit in restoring testosterone production post cycle how can we maintain testicular function and endogenous testosterone production even when "shutdown" using andorgens? Simple - HCG .

    HCG has the ability to maintain endogenous testosterone production and ITT (Intra-Testicular Testosterone) by stimulating the testes (directly) even when shutdown from androgens, such as Testosterone Enathate, shown in this study.

    HCG is VERY important in cycles IMHO. It prevents the main reason the HPTA doesnt recover immediately post cycle - testicular dysfunction. It should be a staple of EVERY cycle causing shutdown IMHO.

    I suggest HCG be used at 125-250ius 2-3 times weekly (as per Dr.Crisler's advice) with an AI throughout the cycle. This will maintain testicular size and function and prevent testicular dysfunction. It should also be noted that administering over "500ius will cause an increase in estrogen and progesterone, further hindering recovery" - Dr.Crisler.



    This thread has been written on correspondance from Dr.Crisler (Swale), Concilliator and my own research gathered.
    I have only one problem with that? while your are HPT is supress by roids, you cant restore the negative feed back, as long as there is roids on your blood stream, that saying, your wont be able to produce endogenous test, but keep your testes alive... If so, then can we assume that we can just run a mono Deca cycle without test and just use HCG??? If the HCG is able to keep endogenous test production while on cycle, then it should work...

    by the way, the study only says that it was able to mantain ITT, not serum T.

  40. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by roid_rage View Post
    I have only one problem with that? while your are HPT is supress by roids, you cant restore the negative feed back, as long as there is roids on your blood stream, that saying, your wont be able to produce endogenous test, but keep your testes alive... If so, then can we assume that we can just run a mono Deca cycle without test and just use HCG ??? If the HCG is able to keep endogenous test production while on cycle, then it should work...

    by the way, the study only says that it was able to mantain ITT, not serum T.
    I'm aware what the study states. I stated it maintain endogenous T from correspondance with Dr.Crisler via PM's over at PM.com.

    Although the HP is "shutdown" from androgens the leydig cells are still stimulated directly via HCG administration.

    In theory, yes, you could run a Deca cycle with HCG. But to run an effective dose of testosterone (with it if you will) you'de need to use fairly large amounts of HCG and risk desensitisation. You would also raise estrogen and progesterone a fair bit, via aromotase and direct production from the testes.

    There is no logic in running Deca/HCG anyhow. Running a testosterone preperation would be more cost effective, provide more stable androgen levels and not risk desensitisation.

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