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  1. #81
    roid_rage is offline Associate Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swifto View Post
    I'm aware what the study states. I stated it maintain endogenous T from correspondance with Dr.Crisler via PM's over at PM.com.

    Although the HP is "shutdown" from androgens the leydig cells are still stimulated directly via HCG administration.

    In theory, yes, you could run a Deca cycle with HCG. But to run an effective dose of testosterone (with it if you will) you'de need to use fairly large amounts of HCG and risk desensitisation. You would also raise estrogen and progesterone a fair bit, via aromotase and direct production from the testes.

    There is no logic in running Deca/HCG anyhow. Running a testosterone preperation would be more cost effective, provide more stable androgen levels and not risk desensitisation.
    how so?? why would you need to use a bigger dosis of HCG? if 250 ui e5d can keep your endogenous T production going on, why would you need more??

    if the HCG can keep your endogenous T production while on roids, then heck, why in the hell do we need PCT if your body never stops making test? to combat strgones? if we are using Deca, there wont be too many estrogens going around, hell, add letro to the cycle, and you wont have stronges, your body will still make test, so there you go.. we are fine... no PCT needed.

    Lets put aside the fact that of course will be better to use test, but in theory, using Deca and HCG during cycle will be able to prevent libido problems for example?

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by roid_rage View Post
    how so?? why would you need to use a bigger dosis of HCG ? if 250 ui e5d can keep your endogenous T production going on, why would you need more??

    250ius will maintain endogenous testosterone. That doesnt mean it will prevent labido problems whilst on progestins such as Deca/Tren. It maintains endogenous T, thats not up for debate IMHO. What is up for debate is how much HCG you'de need administer to replicate exogenous testosterone levels. I suspect you'de need to higher dose and risk desensitisation.

    if the HCG can keep your endogenous T production while on roids, then heck, why in the hell do we need PCT if your body never stops making test? to combat strgones? if we are using Deca , there wont be too many estrogens going around, hell, add letro to the cycle, and you wont have stronges, your body will still make test, so there you go.. we are fine... no PCT needed.

    No, its not that simple. Re-read my first post in this thread. Its clear you dont understand it. Also, read my PCT Sticky.

    HCG will prevent testicular dysfunction. We still need to use SERMs to bring back the hypothalamus and get endogenous testosterone prodcution back (naturally) to basline post cycle.


    Lets put aside the fact that of course will be better to use test, but in theory, using Deca and HCG during cycle will be able to prevent libido problems for example?

    I have no idea and wouldnt risk it. You have to remember how quickly progestins cause HPTA shutdown. They activate both the AR and PR in the hypothalamus. Some even have labido issues on progestins when using exogenous testosterone . Again, running Deca/HCG isnt a wise choice. Adding a testosterone compound and supplementing with HCG for the reasons this thread was written, is.

    HCG isnt a cycle in itself, its meerly an additive (and good one at that) in making recovery easier.
    bolds

  3. #83
    roid_rage is offline Associate Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swifto View Post
    bolds
    I guess it is to determinate how much endogenous T is produce by your body then.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by roid_rage View Post
    I guess it is to determinate how much endogenous T is produce by your body then.
    Even then, whats the point? How can you be sure you'de be attaining stable blood plasma concentrations?

    Test Enanthate at 600mg/wk, for example, will get your total T upto around 2750-3000. If your wanting to replicate that using HCG , your going to need a lot of it IMHO. Then your risking leydig cell desensitisation and desensitisation to the bodies own LH during PCT.

    HCG isnt a substitute for exogenous testosterone .

    Its a bullshit idea anyway you look at it.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swifto View Post
    That protocol would work and should bring the testes back, yes.

    Although I think (next time you cycle) using it throughout at a low dose is best. That way testicular dysfunction can be avoided.

    I dont think its a question of using the least amount of drugs for someone conducting their first cycle. You want to be able to bounce back successfully and using HCG or HMG during your cycle is the most effective protocol.
    I just read you suggested in another thread as well as in this one actually,
    http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=349581
    to use HCG during cycle 125/250ius 2-3 times per W with an AI (in case needed).
    Since I was suggested to pin HCG 500iu ED the last 2W of cycle + Nolva 20mg ED, what would you advise me as per your experience?
    I mean, should I implement HCG on cycle with adex or nolva, which are my drugs on hand?
    Thank you.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by BJJ View Post
    I just read you suggested in another thread as well as in this one actually,
    http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=349581
    to use HCG during cycle 125/250ius 2-3 times per W with an AI (in case needed).
    Since I was suggested to pin HCG 500iu ED the last 2W of cycle + Nolva 20mg ED, what would you advise me as per your experience?
    I mean, should I implement HCG on cycle with adex or nolva, which are my drugs on hand?
    Thank you.
    You can run it in the final few weeks, but who's to say it works everytime. Again, you can prevent testicular dysfunction using HCG DURING your cycle. Thats the "roadblock" in restarting the HPTA post cycle. I'm not sure using HCG in the final few weeks of a cycle will avoid testicular dysfunction. But using it throughout will.

    I'd use HCG/Arimidex at 250ius twice a week and PCT with Clomid/Tamox, Tore/Clomid or Tore/Tamox.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swifto View Post
    The Tamox and Clomid will bring them back, although it maybe a short while.

    HCG will also bring them back sooner, becuase it directly stimulates the testes. If the SERMs dont bring back testicular size/volume after 5-6 weeks, use some HCG or HMG. Then back on the SERMs.
    Do i need Clomid to bring testi's back to size?
    The Nolva vs Clomid sticky promotes using Nolva as brings test base levels up.
    Although....have been on Nolva 20mg alone for 3 weeks and testes still shrunk

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by LIONKING123 View Post
    Do i need Clomid to bring testi's back to size?
    The Nolva vs Clomid sticky promotes using Nolva as brings test base levels up.
    Although....have been on Nolva 20mg alone for 3 weeks and testes still shrunk
    Tamox alone will bring back endogenous testosterone levels eventually. I liike low dose Clomid added to it though. 25mg/ED of Clomid can raise total T by 146%. Thats more than any Tamox study I have ever seen.

    You could also look into Toremifene, which is also VERY good at restoring the HPTA.

    Next time, use HCG during your cycle and you shouldnt have the problem your experiencing now.

  9. #89
    xephonics is offline Associate Member
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    So if I have no current access to HCG will I lose a lot more after cycle than if I did have it?

    Just kind of wondering if I'm now destined to lose most of my gains, or if a good pct can help salvage most of my gains.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by xephonics View Post
    So if I have no current access to HCG will I lose a lot more after cycle than if I did have it?

    Just kind of wondering if I'm now destined to lose most of my gains, or if a good pct can help salvage most of my gains.
    It will be harder to bring endogenous T back to baseline, yes. That may mean a reduction in gains. But there are lots of variables to "keeping gains" post cycle.

    It would certainly make things eaiser to attain gains post cycle. As the testes are already online and ready for the bodies own stimulation (LH, FSH).

  11. #91
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    ok so, ill just take what i can get this go around, but before next cycle ill make sure i have some on hand.

  12. #92
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  13. #93
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    Im currently taking about 600 mgs a wk of test prop for my 2nd cycle.
    Im also prescribed to lorazepam for anxiety but do not take it daily.
    Also i was thinking of taking clen for 2 wks on and 2 wks off at some point.
    Any problems here?

    I have hcg but i am already almost 8 weeks into the cycle w/o ever using any of it. After reading this thread I'm thinking of adding hcg to my current cycle. Is this a good idea and how much would you suggest I use per week????


    15% bf
    age 24
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    6'0'' tall
    12 wk cycle of test

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by dswanson View Post
    Im currently taking about 600 mgs a wk of test prop for my 2nd cycle.
    Im also prescribed to lorazepam for anxiety but do not take it daily.
    Also i was thinking of taking clen for 2 wks on and 2 wks off at some point.
    Any problems here?

    I have hcg but i am already almost 8 weeks into the cycle w/o ever using any of it. After reading this thread I'm thinking of adding hcg to my current cycle. Is this a good idea and how much would you suggest I use per week????


    15% bf
    age 24
    205 lbs
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    12 wk cycle of test

    I would start my HCG right now (wk 8) at 500iu's every 3rd day for 6 shots. So thats 6 shots of 500iu's in 18 days. then i'd drop it down to 250iu's 2-3 times a week through week 12.

    You're PCT starts roughly 3 days after your last prop injection. Don't run HCG into your PCT.

    ~Haz~
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  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazard View Post
    I would start my HCG right now (wk 8) at 500iu's every 3rd day for 6 shots. So thats 6 shots of 500iu's in 18 days. then i'd drop it down to 250iu's 2-3 times a week through week 12.

    You're PCT starts roughly 3 days after your last prop injection. Don't run HCG into your PCT.

    ~Haz~
    Correct.

    E3D or EOD to start with, then maintenence with 250ius 2-3 times weekly.

  16. #96
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    male, age 28, 6'1, 180 lbs, serious since 2005.

    im thinking about using hcg through my 1st cycle of test C at 500mg (250mg twice a week) for 12 weeks.

    since the effects of test are not noticeable until week 4 or 5 would it still be necessary to use hcg in the beginning of the cycle or is it ok to start around week 4 or 5?

    was thinking about using hcg at 250 ius 2 or 3 times per week.

  17. #97
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    I wish I had KNOWN this for the past 7 months, I literally would have been running 125iu's Twice a WEEK with my TRT to keep my TESTES functioning... I always thought HCG was something you ran the last 3 weeks of a CYCLE at 250iu's ED.. that's at least WHAT I HAD ALWAYS DONE.. from NOW on starting in 3-4 weeks of course is to just do a simple 125iu's E3.5days SAME TIME I do my TRT injects, I'll just SUB-Q the HCG...

    Great Read.. Thanks !!

  18. #98
    dswanson is offline New Member
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    So I can do Intramuscular along with the aas im currently doing right?? Can i mix it with the test prop???

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swifto View Post

    HCG is VERY important in cycles IMHO. It prevents the main reason the HPTA doesnt recover immediately post cycle - testicular dysfunction. It should be a staple of EVERY cycle causing shutdown IMHO.

    I suggest HCG be used at 125-250ius 2-3 times weekly (as per Dr.Crisler's advice) with an AI throughout the cycle. This will maintain testicular size and function and prevent testicular dysfunction. It should also be noted that administering over "500ius will cause an increase in estrogen and progesterone, further hindering recovery" - Dr.Crisler.
    Could also be applied to a only var cycle made of 8 weeks 60mg ed, even though the oxandrolone is a mild steroid ?
    thank you

  20. #100
    sickntired is offline New Member
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    male, age 28, 6'1, 180 lbs, serious since 2005.

    im thinking about using hcg through my 1st cycle of test C at 500mg (250mg twice a week) for 12 weeks.

    since the effects of test are not noticeable until week 4 or 5 would it still be necessary to use hcg in the beginning of the cycle or is it ok to start around week 4 or 5?

    was thinking about using hcg at 250 ius 2 or 3 times per week.
    Only, I'm 5'6 @ 150lbs

    Also a couple other Q's......
    -is an AI needed while "on" or "off" with a beginner cycle like this?
    - would a post cycle of Nolva / Clomid be ok? if not....?

  21. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by sickntired View Post
    Only, I'm 5'6 @ 150lbs

    Also a couple other Q's......
    -is an AI needed while "on" or "off" with a beginner cycle like this?
    - would a post cycle of Nolva / Clomid be ok? if not....?
    i dont answer to many questions on here but your questions are pretty basic.

    you should never do a cycle without an AI. you may need it.

    and yes nolva and clomid are the best choices. sometimes you see people with a tweaked pct though, i dont have the knowledge to get into that.

  22. #102
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    someone please answer my question above. i have been patient for 1 whole day.

  23. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazy_rocks View Post
    male, age 28, 6'1, 180 lbs, serious since 2005.

    im thinking about using hcg through my 1st cycle of test C at 500mg (250mg twice a week) for 12 weeks.

    since the effects of test are not noticeable until week 4 or 5 would it still be necessary to use hcg in the beginning of the cycle or is it ok to start around week 4 or 5?

    was thinking about using hcg at 250 ius 2 or 3 times per week.
    Yes, its still suggested. As soon as the hypothalamus senses to much androgen activity, its shuts down (well, reduces considerably) hormone output.

    But at "6'1, 180 lbs", I'm not sure your ready for a cycle, unless your single digit bodyfat %?

    Quote Originally Posted by crazy_rocks View Post
    someone please answer my question above. i have been patient for 1 whole day.
    Chill out.

    Quote Originally Posted by sickntired View Post
    Only, I'm 5'6 @ 150lbs

    Also a couple other Q's......
    -is an AI needed while "on" or "off" with a beginner cycle like this?
    - would a post cycle of Nolva / Clomid be ok? if not....?
    Its suggested an AI is used at a low dose. Some suggest it, others dont. I, however, wish I used one as I got estrogenic sides (that I'm stuck with) such as acne (scarring) and a small case of gyno.

    Clomid/Tamox is fine, yes. Read my PCT sticky in that forum.

  24. #104
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    i dont have much fat on me at all.

  25. #105
    LIONKING123 is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swifto View Post
    Tamox alone will bring back endogenous testosterone levels eventually. I liike low dose Clomid added to it though. 25mg/ED of Clomid can raise total T by 146%. Thats more than any Tamox study I have ever seen.

    You could also look into Toremifene, which is also VERY good at restoring the HPTA.

    Next time, use HCG during your cycle and you shouldnt have the problem your experiencing now.
    Thanks Swifto.

    As i missed HCG during cycle, can i add a week of HCG now (5 weeks since my last jab) just to kick start gonads. Will this do more harm than good??

    I am on my 4th week of Nolva.

  26. #106
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  27. #107
    BBall6 is offline Associate Member
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    I have some HCG I was planning on using it about midway through my 10wk prop/NPP cycle (shot ED at 75mg each). After reading this, I am inclined to start using it now at the recommended 500iu/wk 3x/wk.

    Doesn't is only last a little over a month if you keep it refrigerated? If I start now, I'm guessing 2 vials will get me through the end of my cycle. How do you know when the HCG goes bad?

  28. #108
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    I know it states that it is just speculation, but in the profiles page: http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=199847 it states:

    "As stated above the cycles of HCG should be in the 2 to 3 week range with a least one month off in between, you could stretch your cycle out to four weeks without any major concern if you are using lower doses. One should however take care when using HCG as prolonged use could repress the body’s natural production of gonadotropins permanently, but this is mostly just pure speculation as it does not have yet to be reported nor has there been a case of an overdose. To be on the safe side shorter cycles of HCG seem to be that of the norm. Most users cycle HCG near the end of a steroid cycle, you should start your HCG therapy on the last week of your cycle. For best results you should also run nolva while you run HCG as taking HCG by itself will do little to nothing and gyno even though rare may also flair up. Once the HCG cycle is finished you continue with your usual clomid or nolvadex (preferably the latter) for pct as it is more effective when used in conjunction HCG for pct. With an AAS cycle of 6 to 10 weeks HCG may not be necessary unless extreme doses of AAS were used or there is an existing problem of testicular atrophy or you are running a heavy oral only cycle. AAS cycles of 12 or more weeks should have HCG as a part of post cycle plan."

    I'm wondering if the cycling of HCG should still be implemented in order to keep from desensitizing too much? I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm just doing as much research as I can and saw 2 conflicting theories. I just want to know all angles of thought as to why I put different things in my body in the hopes of having the most successful and least long/short term side cycle I can. I like all the benefits listed in your theory, but wanted to check on the one possible downside I read about. As stated in my previous post, I'm in week 2 of my cycle and I am about to start the HCG protocol you listed, but I would like to know if I should cycle off the HCG for a couple weeks in the middle of the cycle?

    Thanks

  29. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by LIONKING123 View Post
    Thanks Swifto.

    As i missed HCG during cycle, can i add a week of HCG now (5 weeks since my last jab) just to kick start gonads. Will this do more harm than good??

    I am on my 4th week of Nolva.
    There is no point now IMHO.

    The Tamoxifen will begin to bring back endogenous testosterone production and LH/FSH levels should be on the rise. Using HCG may be counterproductive.

    However, if your suffering from testicular dysfunction and SERM's dont work, HCG maybe an option.

    Tamox/Clomid should bring your testes back online soon. 6-7 weeks of their use should, in theory.

  30. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBall6 View Post
    I know it states that it is just speculation, but in the profiles page: http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=199847 it states:

    "As stated above the cycles of HCG should be in the 2 to 3 week range with a least one month off in between, you could stretch your cycle out to four weeks without any major concern if you are using lower doses. One should however take care when using HCG as prolonged use could repress the body’s natural production of gonadotropins permanently, but this is mostly just pure speculation as it does not have yet to be reported nor has there been a case of an overdose. To be on the safe side shorter cycles of HCG seem to be that of the norm. Most users cycle HCG near the end of a steroid cycle, you should start your HCG therapy on the last week of your cycle. For best results you should also run nolva while you run HCG as taking HCG by itself will do little to nothing and gyno even though rare may also flair up. Once the HCG cycle is finished you continue with your usual clomid or nolvadex (preferably the latter) for pct as it is more effective when used in conjunction HCG for pct. With an AAS cycle of 6 to 10 weeks HCG may not be necessary unless extreme doses of AAS were used or there is an existing problem of testicular atrophy or you are running a heavy oral only cycle. AAS cycles of 12 or more weeks should have HCG as a part of post cycle plan."

    I'm wondering if the cycling of HCG should still be implemented in order to keep from desensitizing too much? I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm just doing as much research as I can and saw 2 conflicting theories. I just want to know all angles of thought as to why I put different things in my body in the hopes of having the most successful and least long/short term side cycle I can. I like all the benefits listed in your theory, but wanted to check on the one possible downside I read about. As stated in my previous post, I'm in week 2 of my cycle and I am about to start the HCG protocol you listed, but I would like to know if I should cycle off the HCG for a couple weeks in the middle of the cycle?

    Thanks
    No, you should not cycle off of it.

    If you do, the testes are no longer being directly stimulated via the HCG and testicular dysfunction may begin to set it. This is when recovery become harder.

    My thread and facts on HCG have been compilled from doctors in the field (Endocrinologists), such as Dr.Crisler. The Profile on the main page is probably written by Anthony Conners (Roberts) who has no qualifications in this field at all.

  31. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swifto View Post
    No, you should not cycle off of it.

    If you do, the testes are no longer being directly stimulated via the HCG and testicular dysfunction may begin to set it. This is when recovery become harder.

    My thread and facts on HCG have been compilled from doctors in the field (Endocrinologists), such as Dr.Crisler. The Profile on the main page is probably written by Anthony Conners (Roberts) who has no qualifications in this field at all.
    What you've said makes sense to me and since the profile section never even stated what constitutes as "prolonged" and that it was just speculation about permanent repression, I will dose the HCG throughout my cycle at the 500iu/wk regimen dosed twice a week.

    As far as HCG in general is concerned, how do you know when it has gone bad? I've heard they last about a month with bacteriostatic water when refrigerated which means I will need to use 2 of my vials to get me my 9 wks out of it.

  32. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBall6 View Post
    What you've said makes sense to me and since the profile section never even stated what constitutes as "prolonged" and that it was just speculation about permanent repression, I will dose the HCG throughout my cycle at the 500iu/wk regimen dosed twice a week.

    As far as HCG in general is concerned, how do you know when it has gone bad? I've heard they last about a month with bacteriostatic water when refrigerated which means I will need to use 2 of my vials to get me my 9 wks out of it.
    HCG will just begin to lose effectiveness. I've never had any gone bad.

    Dose it at 250ius 2x per week throughout.

  33. #113
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    Ok I found a decent source to order hcg .

    3 questions:

    Would it be worth it if i can only get it during the last 1-2 weeks of my cycle, or is it already too late? And if not too late, how much would I shoot, and how long would I do it for?

    It comes in a 5000iu ampule, how would I store it? I mean after you break an ampule it is not really sanitary to store, would I need to order some empty vials from ar-r , or some other way I am not aware of?

  34. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by xephonics View Post
    Ok I found a decent source to order hcg .

    3 questions:

    Would it be worth it if i can only get it during the last 1-2 weeks of my cycle, or is it already too late? And if not too late, how much would I shoot, and how long would I do it for?

    It comes in a 5000iu ampule, how would I store it? I mean after you break an ampule it is not really sanitary to store, would I need to order some empty vials from ar-r, or some other way I am not aware of?
    What's your cycle? If you're running Test E and you have 2 weeks of injections left..... that means you have about 4 weeks to use HCG still. I would run it if I had it.

    500iu's 3x a week for the 1st two weeks..... then for the next two weeks, while your waiting for the enanthate esther to clear, i'd run 250iu's 3x a week.

    I store it in a sterile vial in the refridgerator.

    ~Haz~
    Failure is not and option..... ONLY beyond failure is - Haz

    Think beyond yourselves and remember this forum is for educated members to help advise SAFE usage of AAS, not just tell you what you want to hear
    - Knockout_Power

    NOT DOING SOURCE CHECKS......


  35. #115
    xephonics is offline Associate Member
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    I have till oct 30th (my final test inj), but the hcg will take about 2 weeks to arrive.

    Yes it is test E

    and thx for the other info

  36. #116
    Hazard's Avatar
    Hazard is offline AR-Elite Hall of Famer
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    Quote Originally Posted by xephonics View Post
    I have till oct 30th (my final test inj), but the hcg will take about 2 weeks to arrive.

    Yes it is test E

    and thx for the other info
    If you receive your HCG around october 5th you'll still have time. I'd use it as i have outlined above. 2 weeks of 500iu's 3x per week and then 250iu's 3x a week up until PCT

    ~Haz~
    Failure is not and option..... ONLY beyond failure is - Haz

    Think beyond yourselves and remember this forum is for educated members to help advise SAFE usage of AAS, not just tell you what you want to hear
    - Knockout_Power

    NOT DOING SOURCE CHECKS......


  37. #117
    xephonics is offline Associate Member
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    thanks

  38. #118
    skyjumper is offline New Member
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    Great post thanks for the info

  39. #119
    Hazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyjumper View Post
    Great post thanks for the info
    Yeah swifto's full of good stuff..... no homo

    ~Haz~
    Failure is not and option..... ONLY beyond failure is - Haz

    Think beyond yourselves and remember this forum is for educated members to help advise SAFE usage of AAS, not just tell you what you want to hear
    - Knockout_Power

    NOT DOING SOURCE CHECKS......


  40. #120
    BJJ's Avatar
    BJJ
    BJJ is offline Sapiens Fingit Fortunam Sibi
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    Quote Originally Posted by BJJ View Post
    Could also be applied to a only var cycle made of 8 weeks 60mg ed, even though the oxandrolone is a mild steroid ?
    thank you
    Since I received no clues from you on this post, I'll take it a s a "NO".

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