tamoxifen can kill you

[RapaciousShark]

I've been doing some research on the tamoxifen I take 40mg of ed and it's not looking good.

Among the side effects applicable to men - liver damage, liver cancer, retinal scarring, cataracts, blindness, deep-vein thrombosis, heart attack, stroke, and pulmonary embolism.

...and the occurrence of these "rare" sides is too high, imo. With a dose as low as 20mg ed, your risk of a blood clot leading to a stroke, heart attack, or pulmonary embolism is, on average, 30 times higher. It irritates the blood vessels causing inflammation (and bleeding), lowers anticoagulants, and throws off your cholesterol. It does other things to raise the risk that I didnt understand.

Now I'm all paranoid and I get freaked out whenever I get a funny feeling. pain in my chest, or throbbing sensations in my legs, which seem to be happening a little too often. 'don't know what top make of it.

The life expectancy of anyone taking tamoxifen drops.

Should I still be taking this???? Who knows more about the risks? I've got an estrogen rebound to manage right now and I'm torn.

[The Deuce]

IMO Dude you are all set... don't worry about it. Everything has "POSSIBLE" sides.. and these "rare" sides are just what they say ... rare... you did the AAS so now it's up to you to PCT correctly to get ur body back to Normal... it's up to you if you wanna stop using it. I would say toughen up and stop being all anxiety ridden about the fact that you could die from it. You could die from not chewing your steak well enough...

Ya know what I am saying??

Oh and I am not trying to be a d1ck even though it may sound like it from this post.. I am basically saying you have nothing to worry or stress over..

[RapaciousShark]

Thats the way I saw it before, but the risks turned out to be higher than I thought. I have adex, which has fewer lethal sides....can I use that on my rebound? I havent heard much about rebounds from adex. Deuce, you're prob right but I'd rather be safer if I can. I've been feeling REALLY weird since I started taking it. Thanks for your input man.

[longhorn814]

dude now youre just being a lil too paranoid..hell if you drink too much water it can kill..does it mean you shouldnt drink it? NO..everything has potential side effects..i thought nolva was actually good for your cholesterol values from all Ive seen..clomid is the SERM thats supposed to mess with your eyes too..possible liver damage, heart disease, bad cholesterol are all possible side effects of AAS use too..does that bother you?

[CheddaNips]

40mgs is alot ED

[taiboxa]

why 40mg ED?
and too much water will Drown you.

[The Deuce]

Yah but you need that SERM bro... ummm you tried Clomid?? I know no one really prefers it but you know what I am saying... I just think that if you are that freaked out about it just stop taking it and try something else. And like I said I honestly think its all in your head bro.

[Pooks]

u must be young

[Big]

are you taking this while on cycle or as part of your pct?

[100m champ]

In rare cases certain sides can hit u. Some people react to things differntly than others. when i used clomid for pct i had blurred vistion for the entire time i was on it>

[RapaciousShark]

u must be young

It's part of my PCT. I got some lumpage and tried to kill it w/ letro. It didnt work for me. Anyway, now I'm off and I got a rebound I'm treating with the tamox. I lowered it to 20mg ed but the sensitivity came back so now I'm back up to 40mg.

My doc, who is unofficially advising me, tells me tamoxifen is not worth the risk and I should just let them grow then get 'em cut off. I mean, if he would suggest going through that just to avoid the drug, I gotta wonder wtf I'm taking. But apparently tons of you guys have taken it and turned out fine, so...

[RapaciousShark]

quoted the wrong guy, meant to be BIG. I seem naive, huh?

[longhorn814]

It's part of my PCT. I got some lumpage and tried to kill it w/ letro. It didnt work for me. Anyway, now I'm off and I got a rebound I'm treating with the tamox. I lowered it to 20mg ed but the sensitivity came back so now I'm back up to 40mg.

My doc, who is unofficially advising me, tells me tamoxifen is not worth the risk and I should just let them grow then get 'em cut off. I mean, if he would suggest going through that just to avoid the drug, I gotta wonder wtf I'm taking. But apparently tons of you guys have taken it and turned out fine, so...

well its probably the best selling drug used to treat breast cancer..sure it has sides as does everything, but i dont think its that bad..besides its not like youre gonna stay on nolva for years and years..gyno surgery is definitely something i wouldnt want to mess with though..

[meathead320]

The reason your gyno came back, when you dropped the dose, could be that you are actually increasing total circulating E2 with the Nolva.

It does that. It blocks it at the receptor, however leads to a higher build up of total E2, that remains in your system for a long time, as it cannot get broken down by binding to receptors, as the Nolva is blocking that.

Sooo, you may feel like shite when you lower the dose, and even when stopping use at the end of PCT, it could flood back into the hypothalimus, shutting it right off again.

Hence why I dissagree with using only SERMs as PCT, and why I think a 1 week course of an AI, liquidex being my fav, should be ran at about 0.25mg ED, for 7 days.

This drops E2 down to almost nothing, but it is only for 1 week. After that it will go back to normal within a week, but without the flood back like when you stop a SERM.

BTW, 10mg of Nolva can be plenty. The 40mg stuff is often 4x higher than is used to treat Breast cancer, and likely, as with a lot of things, we use too much.

10mg ED of Nolva, if you are side prone, for 21 days, followed with a 7 day course of arimidex could be very effective.

Best to do blood work and find out how well, or lack there of, the pct is doing at getting the hypothalimus working again.

That is the goal, once it is making good amounts of LH and FSH again, the testes will respond in kind.

[RapaciousShark]

The reason your gyno came back, when you dropped the dose, could be that you are actually increasing total circulating E2 with the Nolva.

It does that. It blocks it at the receptor, however leads to a higher build up of total E2, that remains in your system for a long time, as it cannot get broken down by binding to receptors, as the Nolva is blocking that.

Sooo, you may feel like shite when you lower the dose, and even when stopping use at the end of PCT, it could flood back into the hypothalimus, shutting it right off again.

Hence why I dissagree with using only SERMs as PCT, and why I think a 1 week course of an AI, liquidex being my fav, should be ran at about 0.25mg ED, for 7 days.

This drops E2 down to almost nothing, but it is only for 1 week. After that it will go back to normal within a week, but without the flood back like when you stop a SERM.

BTW, 10mg of Nolva can be plenty. The 40mg stuff is often 4x higher than is used to treat Breast cancer, and likely, as with a lot of things, we use too much.

10mg ED of Nolva, if you are side prone, for 21 days, followed with a 7 day course of arimidex could be very effective.

Best to do blood work and find out how well, or lack there of, the pct is doing at getting the hypothalimus working again.

That is the goal, once it is making good amounts of LH and FSH again, the testes will respond in kind.

That makes sense to me...how do the rest of you guys feel about this?

[RapaciousShark]

ok bump, Check it out I have a lumpy swollen area behind my right thigh and i'm def havving a lot of weird throbbing sensations in my legs, non-stop. I'm going to the doc tomorrow and i'm not taking tamox anymore. Anyone know the best way to run adex and taper off? I was thinking I'd do .25 eod, then e3d, and so on.

[PT]

well im glad you posted this and i thank you. alot of people have an "i dont care" attitude but im not one of them. im going to do alot of research on this over the next few days and decide what to use in its place and if there sides are as bad. i have been in this game for a long time and i knew the sides of most of this gear but i never knew this and i thank you for the heads up

[AaronJM1984]

First of all bodybuilding is not necessarily a healthy lifestyle, sure we may eat healthy and train hard, sleep well, but bodybuilding isn't about being healthy, it's about pushing your body to extremes. If you don't want to push your body to extremes then you shouldn't be using gear, you should stay natural. IMO AAS, PH's, Pro Steroids, SERMS, even supplements will probably wind up ending my life a few years before it would if I never took any of these things. The point is I am willing to push myself farther than I could naturally, even if that means I kick the bucket at 70 instead of 80. The way I see it, I have one life to live, I am going to live how I want, I am going to have a certain lifestyle, indulge in the things I enjoy. Now I'm not saying I will blindly take chemicals that can do permanent damage, but you have to weigh the pros and cons. If Tamox is given to woman for breast cancer on a regular basis then that leads me to believe that all of these life threatening sides are VERY rare, and probably associated in longtime abuse and use. Bro you're only using it for 3-4 weeks. IMO chemicals you should be weary about using are things such as Clen, and Allbuterol. Hell look at all these prescription drugs and their sides, you guys ever hear of Accutane (acne medicine) you know one of the rare sides of that stuff is rectal bleeding, LOL bet if you knew that, you'd think twice about using it. Guess what though, the only reason they have to report such sides is because there has been atleast 1 report of it happening, one report out of like 10,000,000 times used.

[RapaciousShark]

well im glad you posted this and i thank you. alot of people have an "i dont care" attitude but im not one of them. im going to do alot of research on this over the next few days and decide what to use in its place and if there sides are as bad. i have been in this game for a long time and i knew the sides of most of this gear but i never knew this and i thank you for the heads up

Bro my leg is jacked and if it's a blood clot then it could embolize and kill me in a matter of minutes. Yeah, maybe i'm trippin' out, but like I said, Tamoxifen CAN kill you. I'm glad someone is taking the decision to use this drug more seriously. I wish the best of luck to you in your risk management and search for alternatives.


Back to my question....can I use adex to get out of this mess? I was thinking I'd deal with the consequences and use a little bit of adex eod to curb the rebound, then just get surgery. 'Better'n bein dead.

[RapaciousShark]

First of all bodybuilding is not necessarily a healthy lifestyle, sure we may eat healthy and train hard, sleep well, but bodybuilding isn't about being healthy, it's about pushing your body to extremes. If you don't want to push your body to extremes then you shouldn't be using gear, you should stay natural. IMO AAS, PH's, Pro Steroids, SERMS, even supplements will probably wind up ending my life a few years before it would if I never took any of these things. The point is I am willing to push myself farther than I could naturally, even if that means I kick the bucket at 70 instead of 80. The way I see it, I have one life to live, I am going to live how I want, I am going to have a certain lifestyle, indulge in the things I enjoy. Now I'm not saying I will blindly take chemicals that can do permanent damage, but you have to weigh the pros and cons. If Tamox is given to woman for breast cancer on a regular basis then that leads me to believe that all of these life threatening sides are VERY rare, and probably associated in longtime abuse and use. Bro you're only using it for 3-4 weeks. IMO chemicals you should be weary about using are things such as Clen, and Allbuterol. Hell look at all these prescription drugs and their sides, you guys ever hear of Accutane (acne medicine) you know one of the rare sides of that stuff is rectal bleeding, LOL bet if you knew that, you'd think twice about using it. Guess what though, the only reason they have to report such sides is because there has been atleast 1 report of it happening, one report out of like 10,000,000 times used.

BTW, the risk of clotting is highest during the first month of taking the drug, then your blood adjusts. I didnt read HOW that happens, but next time I'll site some sources.

[borntobeblue]

and you could get hit by a bus tomorrow

[Atomini]

I can understand your concern, but you must understand that all of these side effects associated with tamoxifen have been discovered in association with BREAST CANCER PATIENTS. And the protocol that doctors give to breast cancer patients is WAY different than the method in which we bodybuilders use it. There is ONE thing that distinguishes the difference between our use, and breast cancer patient use (and this is what determines whether or not the side effects you mentioned will show up):

- Doctors perscribe tamoxifen to breast cancer patients at 20mg per day and are told to use this FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIFE

Let me repeat that last part for you incase you didn't fully grasp that: FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIFE. That means, longterm administration. Doctors don't give tamoxifen to breast cancer patients for a small 4 week cycle (like we do for PCT protocols), they demand that these patients use tamoxifen for MONTHS upon MONTHS and YEARS upon YEARS. And my friend, THAT is where the side effects come from. That's just outright abuse. When my mother was treated for breast cancer, she was put on tamoxifen after her surgery. 5 months into the use she was exhibiting pain in bones and joints, and it got so bad that she had to stop taking it, yet her doctor kept demanding that she remain on it. The practices of the medical establishment scares the shit out of me, they don't know what the fvcking hell they're doing.

So, concerning tamoxifen use for a 4 week PCT protocol or even throughout a steroid cycle, nothing is going to happen to you. Granted there are always small exceptions to the rule, but virtually no tamoxifen-using bodybuilders have complained of the issues you listed (unless they were mass-abusing the stuff). You really need to be taking this stuff for months and years on end. So in the end, for your small 4 week PCT or just to keep gyno away, don't worry yourself to death. I hope this info helped, so good luck.

[AaronJM1984]

Good post Atomini!

[Crest]

**** it we have all taken worse drugs ...... so what! if any of us were bothered we wouldnt be here.

oh and might i add most of us are pretty sensible and stick within what is good for us!

[tommy0677]

When I was younger I used to freak out about stuff like this too. But come on.... blood clots should be the last thing you should be worried about. What about losing your quad or glute muscle to an injection gone bad and getting infected!!! AH SH!T HA HA!!!

[PT]

When I was younger I used to freak out about stuff like this too. But come on.... blood clots should be the last thing you should be worried about. What about losing your quad or glute muscle to an injection gone bad and getting infected!!! AH SH!T HA HA!!!

blood clots should be the last thing were worried about? wow, love the attitude bro. as for injections i know i always use a new needle just decapped and i always rub the injection site with an alchol swab first so im playing that one safe to. every drug that we put into our body can be unsafe. i know that i personally would like to know about these studies so i can get all the facts and make the decion on my own if the dangers outweigh the benifets. im glad he posted this because it was something i didnt know and now im researching to see if i will ever use nolva again or something with less harsh sides. you can lift all the weights you want and look as good as you can but if you die at 35 it was useless and you were better off staying natural. i have used gear for a long time and of course that poses risks but i try to stay informed and play it as safe as i can because this sure the hell isnt worth crocking tommorow for.

[tommy0677]

blood clots should be the last thing were worried about? wow, love the attitude bro.

Exactly, there are worse things that can happen and if nolva was so bad I'm sure someone would be barkin about it on here. How many blood clots have you gotten from nolva? Myself, no clots yet (knock on wood) and I'm a betting man who'll go out on a limb and say it's more than likely not gonna happen. Maybe it would happen over a long period of use, such as in actual medical treatments the drug was created for, in some instances but not in a majority of cases.

If these substances that some of us use here were so extremely bad I know for myself I would be sharing my EXPERIENCES with others on here, but this isn't the case here is it. I could go on to quote numerous warnings by people whom have never used any of these substances, but what would that prove? That I can read and "parrot" those texts. I'd rather learn from other people in my situation than go by hearsay.

You can call this attitude or whatever you please but you had better believe it's a damned good attitude. I was just throwing out some humor, be it low brow (maybe a lil bit to low for some) but it's still humor.

[AaronJM1984]

blood clots should be the last thing were worried about? wow, love the attitude bro. as for injections i know i always use a new needle just decapped and i always rub the injection site with an alchol swab first so im playing that one safe to. every drug that we put into our body can be unsafe. i know that i personally would like to know about these studies so i can get all the facts and make the decion on my own if the dangers outweigh the benifets. im glad he posted this because it was something i didnt know and now im researching to see if i will ever use nolva again or something with less harsh sides. you can lift all the weights you want and look as good as you can but if you die at 35 it was useless and you were better off staying natural. i have used gear for a long time and of course that poses risks but i try to stay informed and play it as safe as i can because this sure the hell isnt worth crocking tommorow for.

It has been proven that swabbing the injection site before injecting does nothing to prevent infection. You may not believe me but its TRUE, don't get me wrong, when I did injections I always swabbed the site 1st, just some useless info I guess.

[AaronJM1984]

Who here thinks AAS are probably more dangerous than Tamox, with that being said, most people don't think twice about shooting the juice, but get nervous with the research chemicals

[daem]

Bro my leg is jacked and if it's a blood clot then it could embolize and kill me in a matter of minutes. Yeah, maybe i'm trippin' out, but like I said, Tamoxifen CAN kill you. I'm glad someone is taking the decision to use this drug more seriously. I wish the best of luck to you in your risk management and search for alternatives.

Good luck...I'd go to the ER now if you are that concerned...Don't wait if you think it is really a clot.

[RapaciousShark]

Thanks everyone for contributing.

My symptoms are persistent. I was gonna go to the doc to get checked out but I know he'll send me straight to the ER when I say "chest pain." I think it's something else because I'm having incessant muscle spasms in my calves and quads. And I mean INCESSANT. I'm wondering what neurological effects aspirin or tamoxifen have.

So does someone have a clue about how I can ride the adex out of this pickle?

[hugovsilva]

I can understand your concern, but you must understand that all of these side effects associated with tamoxifen have been discovered in association with BREAST CANCER PATIENTS. And the protocol that doctors give to breast cancer patients is WAY different than the method in which we bodybuilders use it. There is ONE thing that distinguishes the difference between our use, and breast cancer patient use (and this is what determines whether or not the side effects you mentioned will show up):

- Doctors perscribe tamoxifen to breast cancer patients at 20mg per day and are told to use this FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIFE

Let me repeat that last part for you incase you didn't fully grasp that: FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIFE. That means, longterm administration. Doctors don't give tamoxifen to breast cancer patients for a small 4 week cycle (like we do for PCT protocols), they demand that these patients use tamoxifen for MONTHS upon MONTHS and YEARS upon YEARS. And my friend, THAT is where the side effects come from. That's just outright abuse. When my mother was treated for breast cancer, she was put on tamoxifen after her surgery. 5 months into the use she was exhibiting pain in bones and joints, and it got so bad that she had to stop taking it, yet her doctor kept demanding that she remain on it. The practices of the medical establishment scares the shit out of me, they don't know what the fvcking hell they're doing.

So, concerning tamoxifen use for a 4 week PCT protocol or even throughout a steroid cycle, nothing is going to happen to you. Granted there are always small exceptions to the rule, but virtually no tamoxifen-using bodybuilders have complained of the issues you listed (unless they were mass-abusing the stuff). You really need to be taking this stuff for months and years on end. So in the end, for your small 4 week PCT or just to keep gyno away, don't worry yourself to death. I hope this info helped, so good luck.

Amen to that.

[football2007]

If you are that concerned, use toremifene, its better and less toxic

[Jeff1]

I can understand your concern, but you must understand that all of these side effects associated with tamoxifen have been discovered in association with BREAST CANCER PATIENTS. And the protocol that doctors give to breast cancer patients is WAY different than the method in which we bodybuilders use it. There is ONE thing that distinguishes the difference between our use, and breast cancer patient use (and this is what determines whether or not the side effects you mentioned will show up):

- Doctors perscribe tamoxifen to breast cancer patients at 20mg per day and are told to use this FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIFE

Let me repeat that last part for you incase you didn't fully grasp that: FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIFE. That means, longterm administration. Doctors don't give tamoxifen to breast cancer patients for a small 4 week cycle (like we do for PCT protocols), they demand that these patients use tamoxifen for MONTHS upon MONTHS and YEARS upon YEARS. And my friend, THAT is where the side effects come from. That's just outright abuse. When my mother was treated for breast cancer, she was put on tamoxifen after her surgery. 5 months into the use she was exhibiting pain in bones and joints, and it got so bad that she had to stop taking it, yet her doctor kept demanding that she remain on it. The practices of the medical establishment scares the shit out of me, they don't know what the fvcking hell they're doing.

So, concerning tamoxifen use for a 4 week PCT protocol or even throughout a steroid cycle, nothing is going to happen to you. Granted there are always small exceptions to the rule, but virtually no tamoxifen-using bodybuilders have complained of the issues you listed (unless they were mass-abusing the stuff). You really need to be taking this stuff for months and years on end. So in the end, for your small 4 week PCT or just to keep gyno away, don't worry yourself to death. I hope this info helped, so good luck.

Yeah I like that..

[Jeff1]

I have used AAS, clen, Nolva, clomid, off and on for the last 5 years and Im as Healthy as one should be at my age and Im only 25 my Goal now is to get my BF% down to 9%

[J*U*icEd]

ive never had ONE side effect from nolva while on...

[The Deuce]

ive never had ONE side effect from nolva while on...

Yah me either...

[PT]

yea i have done alot of research and its definatly no more dangerous then everything else that most of us use. blood clots are a major concern or at least should be for most of us as we get older because most of the things we use can cause it but as long as we use it carefully and resposibly then most of us will be fine.