phera-plex PCT

**ndfan** · 03-30-2006, 03:44 AM

going to start my 1st cycle in a few weeks and was wondering if this sounds good or not.

4wk's PP- 20mg ed

taken whole cycle
AX perfect cycle- 2tab ed
milk thistle- 500mg ed
flax seed oil -3000 mg ed
hawthorne berry -1500mg ed
multi vit.

PCT 4weeks
nolva- 20mg ed
AX retain- 3/2/2/1 tab. ed
AX pct- 3/2/1/1 tab. ed

**Testostack** · 03-30-2006, 05:46 AM

what's the PP molecule again?? i'd like to know more about it...........Looking forward to getting my hand on it b4 it's pulled from all retailers.......

**novastepp** · 03-30-2006, 08:47 AM

Originally Posted by ndfan

going to start my 1st cycle in a few weeks and was wondering if this sounds good or not.

4wk's PP- 20mg ed

taken whole cycle
AX perfect cycle- 2tab ed
milk thistle- 500mg ed
flax seed oil -3000 mg ed
hawthorne berry -1500mg ed
multi vit.

PCT 4weeks
nolva- 20mg ed
AX retain- 3/2/2/1 tab. ed
AX pct- 3/2/1/1 tab. ed

that actually sounds pretty good my friend, my only advice would be to jack up that nolva amount to say 40mg for 2 weeks then down to 20 or keep it at a steady 30, i just like that better, but do what you feel is best, i cranked up the amount at first and i think that helped me out. but in any case, your cycle looks pretty good, may i ask....how did you know to run it like that? did you do some RESEARCH before posting this???

**ndfan** · 03-30-2006, 10:13 AM

i've been researching phera-plex / superdrol for a good month before I decided to go and do my first cycle, lots of info but can be confusing. Also wondering if I should put flush fee niacin into the cycle.
thanks

**ndfan** · 03-30-2006, 02:22 PM

I'll do the 40/20 way with the nolva but have one question about it. I've read you can take it all at once or 2 doses daily. Is it better to take 20mg 2x daily then after two weeks do 10mg 2x daily or just all at once. I like having my balls so I don't want to screw this up. The retain and PCT i'll space out daily.

**ndfan** · 03-30-2006, 02:22 PM

I'll do the 40/20 way with the nolva but have one question about it. I've read you can take it all at once or 2 doses daily. Is it better to take 20mg 2x daily then after two weeks do 10mg 2x daily or just all at once. I like having my balls so I don't want to screw this up. The retain and PCT i'll space out daily.

**Papi93** · 03-30-2006, 08:20 PM

Originally Posted by ndfan

i've been researching phera-plex / superdrol for a good month before I decided to go and do my first cycle, lots of info but can be confusing. Also wondering if I should put flush fee niacin into the cycle.
thanks

Niacin is the top support supplement for cholesterol. I would include it into your cycle.

**Papi93** · 03-30-2006, 08:21 PM

Originally Posted by ndfan

I'll do the 40/20 way with the nolva but have one question about it. I've read you can take it all at once or 2 doses daily. Is it better to take 20mg 2x daily then after two weeks do 10mg 2x daily or just all at once. I like having my balls so I don't want to screw this up. The retain and PCT i'll space out daily.

You don't need to space out your nolva doses because it has a long half-life. You can take it all at once.

**pelly789** · 03-30-2006, 10:20 PM

you should include the niacin like papi said and also bump up the milk thistle to 1g ed instead of 500mg just for an extra measure for your liver good luck let us know how it works out for you i have three bottles sittin in front of me but i gotta get all my stuff together for my cycle and pct good luck

**novastepp** · 03-30-2006, 10:58 PM

the perfect cycle is a liver support so your milk thistle amount should be fine for added protection. giants11 also told me to take the PCT right before bed and teh retain earlier in the day because it could give you small problems with restless sleep. a B-complex vitamin will help and of course it will have niacin added, and B12 being in there will help you create more RBC's which is always a plus...

**ndfan** · 03-30-2006, 11:06 PM

pelly789,novastepp, and papi93- thanks for the added info

**ndfan** · 04-24-2006, 08:33 AM

1 more question then no more about this subject from me. What is best for the AX retain and pct? First retain, I've read some say 3 pills ed 4weeks others 3/2/2/1 should they be taken all at once in the morning or spread out 8am, 1 & 6pm then just in morning and afternoon? Same with PCT 3/2/1/1 and can they be taken same time or stager different times like 10am, 4 & 10pm. Ending with just 10pm last 2 weeks? I will be using nolva 40/2 20/2 also.

**MartyMcFly** · 04-24-2006, 09:57 AM

Shouldn't he up the flax. He is only taking 3 g's a day. I take around 30g a day normally.

**novastepp** · 04-24-2006, 05:19 PM

Originally Posted by ndfan

1 more question then no more about this subject from me. What is best for the AX retain and pct? First retain, I've read some say 3 pills ed 4weeks others 3/2/2/1 should they be taken all at once in the morning or spread out 8am, 1 & 6pm then just in morning and afternoon? Same with PCT 3/2/1/1 and can they be taken same time or stager different times like 10am, 4 & 10pm. Ending with just 10pm last 2 weeks? I will be using nolva 40/2 20/2 also.

retain reduces cortisol, which is a plus. and PCT is an AI, and should be taken right before bed. so u could take 3 pills of retain in the morning and then 3 pills of the PCT before bed.

**KAZUYA MISHIMA** · 04-24-2006, 05:56 PM

dont use the pct and nolva, use nolva alone.pct+nolva may give u delayed gyno.

**novastepp** · 04-24-2006, 07:05 PM

Originally Posted by KAZUYA MISHIMA

dont use the pct and nolva, use nolva alone.pct+nolva may give u delayed gyno.

what makes u say that?

**ndfan** · 04-24-2006, 07:17 PM

Originally Posted by novastepp

retain reduces cortisol, which is a plus. and PCT is an AI, and should be taken right before bed. so u could take 3 pills of retain in the morning and then 3 pills of the PCT before bed.

Thanks Nova!! Also I looked for delayed gyno with AX PCT and nolva but can't find anything about it on the board

**KAZUYA MISHIMA** · 04-25-2006, 05:47 AM

there is reason to believe that post-cycle gyno is actually the RESULT of ATD; So i would avoid it, especially during PCT.

I.) THE DATA
----------------------------
----------------------------

PLease first view the attached graph. It's the graphical summary of 6 members who kindly posted their EXACT SD-cycle as well as their PCT-protocol.
(Damn, how can I put this image to be visible inside the thread? Someone help me please)

-All 6 subjects are our forum members (phantom21; pumpedgator; Epihall; D-Termine; SnakeVette80; Jay_D).
-In the graph you see how long they took SD (yellow bars), how much and how long they took RXT (blue), Nolva (red) or 6-OXO (green). On the right side you see the averaged number of weeks that passed after the end of PCT after that each subject reported onset of gyno (if someone said: "5-6 weeks", then I wrote: 5.5 weeks as the average).

There are additionally 5 forum members from the ************* forum (baby_a; Rastar; Mass_69; Jared; reef) who also reported delayed gyno after SD and PCT. Unfortunately they haven't provided enough information in order to incorporate their data into my graphical analysis.
The first of those did a PCT with RXT only and reported gyno "several weeks" after PCT;
Nr.2 did also a RXT-standalone PCT and reported gyno "several months later".
Nr.3 got gyno 4 months after a SD-cycle; however he interponed a "MOHN / 4-AD-cycle" before he did PCT (RXT only).
Nr.4 reported onset of gyno "immediately" after finishing PCT with RXT and "LX" (LeanExtreme).
Finally, Nr.5 (reef) reported the probably most intriguing thing I have read so far: He did 2 SD-cycles: After the first he did an "old-school" Nolva-only PCT without any problems. Some time later he did his 2nd SD-cycle. This time he took RXT only for PCT because he ran out of Nolva. Guess what? The guy got gyno 4 weeks after he finished his RXT-PCT.

Here I will shortly summarize the theories that have been proposed so far about the origin and the mechanisms of delayed gyno after SD by several members from this or the ************* forum. There were too MANY members, to mention them all; but it was a pleasure to see guys like BigCat, w-llewellyn and Dr.D (that's actually NOT me, this is one of the masterminds from designer supplements, who is posting at AM) chiming in and commenting on the issue.

II.THE THEORIES AND ARGUMENTS
-----------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------

1.) Delayed Gyno is some direct pro-estrogenic effect from SD.
--------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT: This has been discarded because a) SD is supposed to aromatize very weakly. If it would have some "secret" pro-estrogenic action, its very short half-life (estimated 8 h) would prevent any DELAYED action.

2.) Some steroids , among them SD are supposed to cause a rebound of testosteron production after several weeks / months of recovery after a cycle. Some guys called this the "SD-echo". The overshooting test is responsible for consecutive convcersion to estrogen via aromatase and finally leads to gyno.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT: There is probably something like a "testosteron-echo". Several people have reported such observations, but no one of them got actually gyno! The increased testosteron protects you from getting gyno even if your estrogen is elevated by providing a beneficial test-to estrogen-ratio.

3.) There is no "delayed gyno from SD" phenomenon at all. From thousends of people who did a SD-cycle there are relatively few who reported this issue. Some people are genetically prone to get gyno even after slight hormonal imbalances. Such imbalances can be caused by ANY steroid and are not specific for SD or the PCT. After all, there might be a "gyno-hysteria", with paple falsely reporting "gyno" even when they feel their nipples itch a bit, which seems to occur quite often when taking steroids.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT: Well that argument is hard to beat, because we don't have the numbers. I have gathered 11 people who reported delayed gyno just by looking on two forums. It can be assumed that there a quite a few more, whom we don't know because they just never come to these forums. A realistical estimation would be to say: We have appr. 10 reported gyno-cases on 1000 people who used SD (that would be a rate of <1%). Well in medicine a rate of 1% is HIGH!!! Huge pharmaceutical companies get in HUGE trouble even if 10 people from 1 million get some serious adverse effects from a drug(remember the Lipobay scandal or the COX-2 scandal?). So, an adverse effect that is in the range of 1% is not a seldom or rare effect.
Even if half of the people who reported gyno don't have real gyno, there are more than enough cases to make this a considerable ISSUE!

4. Improperly off-tapered PCT led to estrogen rebound, that causes the gyno after some time.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT: Well, as we see in the graph, we have virtually all combinations of down-tapering, up-tapering, constant dosing etc. So even if theoretically correct, proper downtapering during PCT seems to not protect entirely against delayed gyno.

5.) The use of Aromatase-Inhibitors after a steroid-cycle is the key for delayed gyno. It has been hypothesized that AIs lead to a huge up-regulation either of estrogen-receptors or the aromatase-enzyme, or both. When testosterone is slowly recovering after a cycle and has not yet reached full capacity-levels, the explosively ramping up of estrogen-production (aromatse upped) will lead to massive estrogenic action at peripheral tissues (additionally by highly sensitized tissue-receptors). This leads to a SIGNIFICANT dysbalance of the testosteron-to-estrogen-ratio wich is the main signal for breast tissue to grow. At that moment gyno-development starts, and after some some weeks you can not only feel it but also see it!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT: This is my favoured theory so far. It is very logical in itself. However, we don't have experimental evidence for that, so it still remains a theory. What speaks dor this teory is that litterally ALL cases I found on BB.com as well as on AM-forum did their PCT with an AI alone or in combination with Nolva. Their might be one single exception to this (there is a guy called "Dmitry" or alike whose posts I didn't entirelly understood. He seems to have used only Nolva for PCT, but that is not clear). Even if there would be one case, there are 11 cases that stands against. So, possibly AIs are not the ENTIRE explanation but they SEEM to be the major RISK-FACTOR to develop delayed gyno after SD.
However, the overall risk to get delayed gyno after sd is about 1%. From this 1% 0.9% can - possibly-be accounted for by AIs.

6. (UPDATE) The combination of a STRONG shutdown of testosteron-production (induced by a STRONG androgenic substance) with a STRONG estrogenic hypersensitation (induced by an AI) seems to be crucial in order to push the ratio of testosteron-to-estrogen-(receptor-action) beyond a critical threshold for developing gyno.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT: Several forum members have pointed to the observation that apparently all delayed-gyno cases have been reported from users who had an AI during PCT + SD during ON cycle. To date no reports have appeard on delayd gyno after other designer steroids like Pheraplex (PP) or one of the E...Max derivates. This is in fact an intriguing point. It has been suggested that SD may have stronger androgenic side effects then PP /Emax. Moreover, there was a sidenote from BigCat that delayed gyno has also been occasionally observed in people who were on "traditional" steroids (e.g. testosteron), which also have STRONG androgenic action. Taken together, The synergistical interplay of these said factors can be summed up as follows:
the stronger the estrogenic hyperactivity (induced by AI) AND the stronger the testosteron-hypoactivity is, the higher is the risk to develop delayed gyno. (It's again the RATIO)
This is in fact almost the same as was proposed in theory Nr.5, with the exception that the amount of testosteron-shutdown is more appreciated now.

So, my precluding thoughts are:
If you plan to do a cycly with a steroid that has strong androgenic action and if you are ANXIOUS to get gyno or if you ever had (pubertal) gyno or if you have a highly sensitized estrogenic system by one or more previous steroid cycles, than you should at least THINK about using or not using AIs for your PCT because Ais seems to add to the risk to get gyno.

EDIT: Bloute just remembered me to mention the DHEA-problem:
-----------------------------------------------------------------
The intake of DHEA to support PCT is a standard recommendation in the Superdol and PCT threads. However, BifCat pointed to the fact that during PCT, the intake of an additional steroid or pro-steroid might slow down the recovery of the testosterone-production. If that holds true, than the addition of DHEA will even further impair the testosteron-to-estrogen-ratio during and after PCT and by that further increase the risk to get delayed gyno. That was a very good pont. Unfortunately we don't have enough data. I know that 2 of the 11 subjects I mentioned above did take DHEA. Perhaps these guys could post that information here.

**KAZUYA MISHIMA** · 04-25-2006, 05:50 AM

Originally Posted by KAZUYA MISHIMA

there is reason to believe that post-cycle gyno is actually the RESULT of ATD; So i would avoid it, especially during PCT.

I.) THE DATA
----------------------------
----------------------------

PLease first view the attached graph. It's the graphical summary of 6 members who kindly posted their EXACT SD-cycle as well as their PCT-protocol.
(Damn, how can I put this image to be visible inside the thread? Someone help me please)

-All 6 subjects are our forum members (phantom21; pumpedgator; Epihall; D-Termine; SnakeVette80; Jay_D).
-In the graph you see how long they took SD (yellow bars), how much and how long they took RXT (blue), Nolva (red) or 6-OXO (green). On the right side you see the averaged number of weeks that passed after the end of PCT after that each subject reported onset of gyno (if someone said: "5-6 weeks", then I wrote: 5.5 weeks as the average).

There are additionally 5 forum members from the ************* forum (baby_a; Rastar; Mass_69; Jared; reef) who also reported delayed gyno after SD and PCT. Unfortunately they haven't provided enough information in order to incorporate their data into my graphical analysis.
The first of those did a PCT with RXT only and reported gyno "several weeks" after PCT;
Nr.2 did also a RXT-standalone PCT and reported gyno "several months later".
Nr.3 got gyno 4 months after a SD-cycle; however he interponed a "MOHN / 4-AD-cycle" before he did PCT (RXT only).
Nr.4 reported onset of gyno "immediately" after finishing PCT with RXT and "LX" (LeanExtreme).
Finally, Nr.5 (reef) reported the probably most intriguing thing I have read so far: He did 2 SD-cycles: After the first he did an "old-school" Nolva-only PCT without any problems. Some time later he did his 2nd SD-cycle. This time he took RXT only for PCT because he ran out of Nolva. Guess what? The guy got gyno 4 weeks after he finished his RXT-PCT.

Here I will shortly summarize the theories that have been proposed so far about the origin and the mechanisms of delayed gyno after SD by several members from this or the ************* forum. There were too MANY members, to mention them all; but it was a pleasure to see guys like BigCat, w-llewellyn and Dr.D (that's actually NOT me, this is one of the masterminds from designer supplements, who is posting at AM) chiming in and commenting on the issue.

II.THE THEORIES AND ARGUMENTS
-----------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------

1.) Delayed Gyno is some direct pro-estrogenic effect from SD.
--------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT: This has been discarded because a) SD is supposed to aromatize very weakly. If it would have some "secret" pro-estrogenic action, its very short half-life (estimated 8 h) would prevent any DELAYED action.

2.) Some steroids , among them SD are supposed to cause a rebound of testosteron production after several weeks / months of recovery after a cycle. Some guys called this the "SD-echo". The overshooting test is responsible for consecutive convcersion to estrogen via aromatase and finally leads to gyno.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT: There is probably something like a "testosteron-echo". Several people have reported such observations, but no one of them got actually gyno! The increased testosteron protects you from getting gyno even if your estrogen is elevated by providing a beneficial test-to estrogen-ratio.

3.) There is no "delayed gyno from SD" phenomenon at all. From thousends of people who did a SD-cycle there are relatively few who reported this issue. Some people are genetically prone to get gyno even after slight hormonal imbalances. Such imbalances can be caused by ANY steroid and are not specific for SD or the PCT. After all, there might be a "gyno-hysteria", with paple falsely reporting "gyno" even when they feel their nipples itch a bit, which seems to occur quite often when taking steroids.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT: Well that argument is hard to beat, because we don't have the numbers. I have gathered 11 people who reported delayed gyno just by looking on two forums. It can be assumed that there a quite a few more, whom we don't know because they just never come to these forums. A realistical estimation would be to say: We have appr. 10 reported gyno-cases on 1000 people who used SD (that would be a rate of <1%). Well in medicine a rate of 1% is HIGH!!! Huge pharmaceutical companies get in HUGE trouble even if 10 people from 1 million get some serious adverse effects from a drug(remember the Lipobay scandal or the COX-2 scandal?). So, an adverse effect that is in the range of 1% is not a seldom or rare effect.
Even if half of the people who reported gyno don't have real gyno, there are more than enough cases to make this a considerable ISSUE!

4. Improperly off-tapered PCT led to estrogen rebound, that causes the gyno after some time.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT: Well, as we see in the graph, we have virtually all combinations of down-tapering, up-tapering, constant dosing etc. So even if theoretically correct, proper downtapering during PCT seems to not protect entirely against delayed gyno.

5.) The use of Aromatase-Inhibitors after a steroid-cycle is the key for delayed gyno. It has been hypothesized that AIs lead to a huge up-regulation either of estrogen-receptors or the aromatase-enzyme, or both. When testosterone is slowly recovering after a cycle and has not yet reached full capacity-levels, the explosively ramping up of estrogen-production (aromatse upped) will lead to massive estrogenic action at peripheral tissues (additionally by highly sensitized tissue-receptors). This leads to a SIGNIFICANT dysbalance of the testosteron-to-estrogen-ratio wich is the main signal for breast tissue to grow. At that moment gyno-development starts, and after some some weeks you can not only feel it but also see it!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT: This is my favoured theory so far. It is very logical in itself. However, we don't have experimental evidence for that, so it still remains a theory. What speaks dor this teory is that litterally ALL cases I found on BB.com as well as on AM-forum did their PCT with an AI alone or in combination with Nolva. Their might be one single exception to this (there is a guy called "Dmitry" or alike whose posts I didn't entirelly understood. He seems to have used only Nolva for PCT, but that is not clear). Even if there would be one case, there are 11 cases that stands against. So, possibly AIs are not the ENTIRE explanation but they SEEM to be the major RISK-FACTOR to develop delayed gyno after SD.
However, the overall risk to get delayed gyno after sd is about 1%. From this 1% 0.9% can - possibly-be accounted for by AIs.

6. (UPDATE) The combination of a STRONG shutdown of testosteron-production (induced by a STRONG androgenic substance) with a STRONG estrogenic hypersensitation (induced by an AI) seems to be crucial in order to push the ratio of testosteron-to-estrogen-(receptor-action) beyond a critical threshold for developing gyno.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT: Several forum members have pointed to the observation that apparently all delayed-gyno cases have been reported from users who had an AI during PCT + SD during ON cycle. To date no reports have appeard on delayd gyno after other designer steroids like Pheraplex (PP) or one of the E...Max derivates. This is in fact an intriguing point. It has been suggested that SD may have stronger androgenic side effects then PP /Emax. Moreover, there was a sidenote from BigCat that delayed gyno has also been occasionally observed in people who were on "traditional" steroids (e.g. testosteron), which also have STRONG androgenic action. Taken together, The synergistical interplay of these said factors can be summed up as follows:
the stronger the estrogenic hyperactivity (induced by AI) AND the stronger the testosteron-hypoactivity is, the higher is the risk to develop delayed gyno. (It's again the RATIO)
This is in fact almost the same as was proposed in theory Nr.5, with the exception that the amount of testosteron-shutdown is more appreciated now.

So, my precluding thoughts are:
If you plan to do a cycly with a steroid that has strong androgenic action and if you are ANXIOUS to get gyno or if you ever had (pubertal) gyno or if you have a highly sensitized estrogenic system by one or more previous steroid cycles, than you should at least THINK about using or not using AIs for your PCT because Ais seems to add to the risk to get gyno.

EDIT: Bloute just remembered me to mention the DHEA-problem:
-----------------------------------------------------------------
The intake of DHEA to support PCT is a standard recommendation in the Superdol and PCT threads. However, BifCat pointed to the fact that during PCT, the intake of an additional steroid or pro-steroid might slow down the recovery of the testosterone-production. If that holds true, than the addition of DHEA will even further impair the testosteron-to-estrogen-ratio during and after PCT and by that further increase the risk to get delayed gyno. That was a very good pont. Unfortunately we don't have enough data. I know that 2 of the 11 subjects I mentioned above did take DHEA. Perhaps these guys could post that information here.

[IMG]C:\Documents and Settings\P4\Desktop\analysis_drP[/IMG]

**KAZUYA MISHIMA** · 04-25-2006, 05:51 AM

**KAZUYA MISHIMA** · 04-25-2006, 05:52 AM

dont use any atd or ai during nolva!

**StateChamp** · 04-25-2006, 08:57 AM

wow, good information to know, looks like someone did some homework. I am about to start my PP cycle in two weeks and I as well only going to do nolva. I was contemplating whether or not to add retain in my pct but i guess this answers my question. thanks kazuya mishima...

**novastepp** · 04-25-2006, 09:18 AM

it looks to me that it is just an argument basically stating that AI's shouldn't be used with SD. and it also says it is if you do an off-tapered PCT... which i don't do and i don't think a lot of other guys do either. numbers 5 & 6 are just theorehtical, and there isn't any evidence behind it. and 6 is based on forum members who only used an AI after taking SD, no nolva involved. plus how can u be sure these guys know whats going on. the article makes reference to a man who ran a cycle but they weren't even sure if he used just nolva or not. i think its hard to make any conclusions from that. but thanks for posting.

**StateChamp** · 04-25-2006, 09:29 AM

dam!! now i am confused, I am running my pp cycle like this:
4wk's PP- 20mg ed

taken whole cycle
milk thistle- 500mg ed(i also have some other liver support i picked up from Gnc)ON CLEARANCE!!that i will throw in with this(don't want to take any changes)
flax, fish, biotin(somthing like this) -3000 mg ed(it's all contained in the same pill)
hawthorne berry -1500mg ed
multi vit.
niacin

PCT 4weeks
nolva- 40mg ed
tribulus-(not sure how much to take yet)

let me know your opinions on this cycle. any changes or whatever. open to criticism...especially you novastepp or papi..i have got most of my info from you guys.

as always thanks guys!!

**novastepp** · 04-25-2006, 10:12 AM

looks great to me. after PCT you may look into tongkat ali, or redkat (redkat is tongkat ali) to help raise your test levels higher. and it will. but the cycle looks great. also, eat clean and eat your ass off my man. i did and i didnt see an ounce of fat gain (which is typical when eating clean) but i really elevated my cals, and i gained like a monster.

**StateChamp** · 04-25-2006, 10:17 AM

like always thanks novastepp you the man. i will pick up some tongkat to bring those levels up. do you know how much tribulus i should take in with my nolva? and one other question is what is the best multi vitamin to use? thanks novastepp...

**KAZUYA MISHIMA** · 04-25-2006, 10:56 AM

every person who have had delayed gyno after a pp or sd cycle used an AI or ATD...i wouldnt use it, trust me ; )

i would run real tongkat ali, redkat is good but it takes about a week to make its effect, the real tongkat one day.

the best would be some HCG along with ur pp cycle to avoid testicular atrophy...but it wouldnt happen on a pp only cycle... HCG is great because it is a LH-mimic and with it u can avoid testicular atrophy=faster recovery

**novastepp** · 04-25-2006, 10:57 AM

any multi will work really. i take a one-a-day mens. cheap and it works for me. on the trib different guys say different things. if you have powder i would say take 6g ED. 3g mid morning and 3g mid afternoon. but that's how i've done it with good results, maybe do a search and see what else comes up because the topic has been beaten to death around here.

**KAZUYA MISHIMA** · 04-25-2006, 10:58 AM

i would take tongkat ali. trib is similar to tongkat but a lot less potent than it.

**novastepp** · 04-25-2006, 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by KAZUYA MISHIMA

every person who have had delayed gyno after a pp or sd cycle used an AI or ATD...i wouldnt use it, trust me ; )

i would run real tongkat ali, redkat is good but it takes about a week to make its effect, the real tongkat one day.

the best would be some HCG along with ur pp cycle to avoid testicular atrophy...but it wouldnt happen on a pp only cycle... HCG is great because it is a LH-mimic and with it u can avoid testicular atrophy=faster recovery

i never had any atrphy whatsoever. and i thought the discussion was about taking an AI and nolva? but u are now saying to just stay away from AI's whatsoever. i guess i will keep reading about it cause i havent found anything all morning.

**KAZUYA MISHIMA** · 04-25-2006, 11:06 AM

Originally Posted by StateChamp

wow, good information to know, looks like someone did some homework. I am about to start my PP cycle in two weeks and I as well only going to do nolva. I was contemplating whether or not to add retain in my pct but i guess this answers my question. thanks kazuya mishima...

glad to help!

**ndfan** · 04-25-2006, 12:28 PM

Are there any AX reps on the board that can give their input about this?

**StateChamp** · 04-25-2006, 01:27 PM

thanks novastepp and kazuya for the input. i have some trib. on hand to use( the pill form) 625 mg each pill. will search on this. once again thanks...