Hawthorn berry dose?

[DCannon]

How much hawthorn berry do you think I should take to help lower my blood pressure? It is about 165/85.
Thanks.

[ni4ni]

1200MG should do the trick

[BrokenBricks]

Why not see a doctor and take a medication that has been studied?

[DCannon]

1200MG should do the trick

Thanks ni4ni, the bottles I got say 500mgs 2-5 times daily so I was just wondering if it was closer to 2 or 5.

[DCannon]

Why not see a doctor and take a medication that has been studied?

I prefer not to take prescription meds if possible. Just a personal preference.

[BrokenBricks]

I prefer not to take prescription meds if possible. Just a personal preference.

Any particular reason? The distinction between and over the counter medication and prescription medication is not a fundamental one. What is clear is that drugs that do not require a Rx are still drugs. I suppose if you try it and your BP comes down and you have no side effects well more power to you. A lot of this naturopathic stuff is an empty philosophy promoted by neo-hippies.

[xlxBigSexyxlx]

How much hawthorn berry do you think I should take to help lower my blood pressure? It is about 165/85.
Thanks.

With bp that high, I don't think hawthorn berry will help much.
And 1200 mg is too low. I've taken 2000 mg and didn't notice much, if anything.

The thing that will effect your bp the fastest and most notable is sodium in your diet. Aim to take in 1500 mg a day.

Increase potassium. Eat potatoes and bananas. Take a 99mg potassium supplement 3x a day

Avoid any kind of stimulants.

Cardio! Get that heart rate up and exercise. Have a low body fat %

Water! Drink lots of it.

Take a baby aspirin (81mg) a day

[xlxBigSexyxlx]

Any particular reason? The distinction between and over the counter medication and prescription medication is not a fundamental one. What is clear is that drugs that do not require a Rx are still drugs. I suppose if you try it and your BP comes down and you have no side effects well more power to you. A lot of this naturopathic stuff is an empty philosophy promoted by neo-hippies.

Ditto. LOL

[DCannon]

Any particular reason? The distinction between and over the counter medication and prescription medication is not a fundamental one. What is clear is that drugs that do not require a Rx are still drugs. I suppose if you try it and your BP comes down and you have no side effects well more power to you. A lot of this naturopathic stuff is an empty philosophy promoted by neo-hippies.

I've taken a lot of prescription meds over the years and now I just prefer to take them only when necessary now.

[DCannon]

With bp that high, I don't think hawthorn berry will help much.
And 1200 mg is too low. I've taken 2000 mg and didn't notice much, if anything.

The thing that will effect your bp the fastest and most notable is sodium in your diet. Aim to take in 1500 mg a day. I try and keep my sodium pretty low.

Increase potassium. Eat potatoes and bananas. Take a 99mg potassium supplement 3x a dayMy blood levels are already high so don't want any extra.

Avoid any kind of stimulants.Can't go to the gym right now, so I'm not taking any right now.

Cardio! Get that heart rate up and exercise. Have a low body fat %My bf is around 12% but I can't workout just yet.

Water! Drink lots of it.I quite a bit of water a day.

Take a baby aspirin (81mg) a day

I'll give this a try.
Thanks Big, I'll try taking a bit more hawthorn berry, it can't hurt to try. I'll try the baby aspirin as well.

[xlxBigSexyxlx]

No problem. Best of luck

[BrokenBricks]

I've taken a lot of prescription meds over the years and now I just prefer to take them only when necessary now.

If you really want good blood pressure you may find them unavoidable. You still have not supplied any rational for your stance. Not that you owe me an explanation, but why do you think a berry is safer than a low dose diuretic? Are you diabetic? Do you have other medical problems? Good evidence exists showing certain types of BP meds provide strong benefits beyond the actual reduction in BP. It is borderline malpractice to not have a diabetic who is hypertensive on an ACE-I becuase of the profound reduction in risk of kidney disease you get with one.

If you are a healthy guy with simply a little elevation in your BP, well, I don't care what you do really. But if you are at all unhealthy and have any underlying disease you are making a grave error by avoiding traditional medicine. The scientific method is useful.

Asprin is not effective for lowing BP. How old are you? There is little reason to take asprin unless you are over 50.

[xlxBigSexyxlx]

If you really want good blood pressure you may find them unavoidable. You still have not supplied any rational for your stance. Not that you owe me an explanation, but why do you think a berry is safer than a low dose diuretic? Are you diabetic? Do you have other medical problems? Good evidence exists showing certain types of BP meds provide strong benefits beyond the actual reduction in BP. It is borderline malpractice to not have a diabetic who is hypertensive on an ACE-I becuase of the profound reduction in risk of kidney disease you get with one.

If you are a healthy guy with simply a little elevation in your BP, well, I don't care what you do really. But if you are at all unhealthy and have any underlying disease you are making a grave error by avoiding traditional medicine. The scientific method is useful.

Asprin is not effective for lowing BP. How old are you? There is little reason to take asprin unless you are over 50.

Really? My fellow friends and even a doc told me otherwise...

[BrokenBricks]

Really? My fellow friends and even a doc told me otherwise...

They would be incorrect. Are you sure the doctor did not say something else like "If you have high blood pressure you might need to take an Aspirin?" to someone who is older? Aspirin absolutely does not decrease blood pressure, but older people who are at risk of heart disease and stroke benefit from aspirin becuase of it anti platelet effects. If you are 50 and have high cholesterol you might not need an aspirin a day. If you also have hypertension you now have at least 3 risk factors for MI and stroke and aspirin will lower that risk profoundly. Not by decreasing BP however. If you are 25 you will *not* have an MI or stroke unless you have profoundly abnormal physiology and the increased risks associated with taking aspirin (GI primarily) make it a net negative.

[almostgone]

Any particular reason? The distinction between and over the counter medication and prescription medication is not a fundamental one. What is clear is that drugs that do not require a Rx are still drugs. I suppose if you try it and your BP comes down and you have no side effects well more power to you. A lot of this naturopathic stuff is an empty philosophy promoted by neo-hippies.

My post will be slightly off track, but please bear with me. Although I agree with most of what you stated I will say that several of the medical universities are recommending Hawthorne berry in conjunction with prescription medications for certain conditions.
I suffer from left bundle branch block, cardiomyopathy, congestive heart failure, mitral valve disorder, and coagulopathy (lol, I think that got them all). All of the damage started as a result of a virus. Anyway, I also have been seen by specialists/teachers at the Medical University of South Carolina.
I guess my main point is that although prescription medications are definitely effective, alternative treatments are occasionally useful.

AG

[almostgone]

Just to reiterate, I don't condone not taking a prescription medicine when it is needed. However, I think that occasionally there are some herbal supplements that may be used as an adjunct/aid to a lesser dose of a script med.

AG

[BrokenBricks]

My post will be slightly off track, but please bear with me. Although I agree with most of what you stated I will say that several of the medical universities are recommending Hawthorne berry in conjunction with prescription medications for certain conditions.
I suffer from left bundle branch block, cardiomyopathy, congestive heart failure, mitral valve disorder, and coagulopathy (lol, I think that got them all). All of the damage started as a result of a virus. Anyway, I also have been seen by specialists/teachers at the Medical University of South Carolina.
I guess my main point is that although prescription medications are definitely effective, alternative treatments are occasionally useful.

AG

I totally agree with you. Actually my favorite chemicals, ephedrine caffeine and aspirin are all not prescription and "natural". All of them have been used since before modern medicine existed in herbal preparations. What I object to is false dichotomy between "drugs" (ie, prescription medications) and the "all natural" "organic" "from mother earth so you know its safe" "non-drugs". There are new age hippie type thinkers who think that because something exists in nature it must be safer or better for you. This is a serious error. Many many of modern medicines drugs came from nature, but coming from nature is not what made them worthwhile. It was careful experimentation and rigorous science that weeded out the good from the deadly. The error people make is not in acknowledging that some chemicals found in nature are useful, it is in thinking that *because* its from nature claims of its safety and efficacy are more credible. The OP, while not directly making these claims seems to be moseying along that road.

[almostgone]

Ah, sounds like we are on the same page. Kind of like just because foxglove gave us digoxin doesn't mean everything that grows in the meadow is a cure-all.

AG

I totally agree with you. Actually my favorite chemicals, ephedrine caffeine and aspirin are all not prescription and "natural". All of them have been used since before modern medicine existed in herbal preparations. What I object to is false dichotomy between "drugs" (ie, prescription medications) and the "all natural" "organic" "from mother earth so you know its safe" "non-drugs". There are new age hippie type thinkers who think that because something exists in nature it must be safer or better for you. This is a serious error. Many many of modern medicines drugs came from nature, but coming from nature is not what made them worthwhile. It was careful experimentation and rigorous science that weeded out the good from the deadly. The error people make is not in acknowledging that some chemicals found in nature are useful, it is in thinking that *because* its from nature claims of its safety and efficacy are more credible. The OP, while not directly making these claims seems to be moseying along that road.

[almostgone]

All of you know nothing about it!
Here is the Force: http://xxxxxxxxxx/x20.html

Go somewhere else with your crap Sir Spam-a-lot. This was an interesting thread until you took a dump in it.

AG

[BrokenBricks]

Ah, sounds like we are on the same page. Kind of like just because foxglove gave us digoxin doesn't mean everything that grows in the meadow is a cure-all.

AG

Funny you should mention foxglove. There are more examples that I could contain on this thread, but I was going to use that example. I decided not to since I didn't think anyone would have heard of it, but you have CHF so, yeah! Interestingly digoxin improves symptoms of CHF and reduces hospital visits, but does not increase life span. You just feel better and die at the same time. Still a worthwhile drug.

[almostgone]

Funny you should mention foxglove. There are more examples that I could contain on this thread, but I was going to use that example. I decided not to since I didn't think anyone would have heard of it, but you have CHF so, yeah! Interestingly digoxin improves symptoms of CHF and reduces hospital visits, but does not increase life span. You just feel better and die at the same time. Still a worthwhile drug.

LOL. I'll take that over an 18% EF any day.

AG

[BrokenBricks]

LOL. I'll take that over an 18% EF any day.

AG

Your EF is 18%?

[almostgone]

When I was first diagnosed several years ago it was. Since then I've been throght a variety of Beta-blockers , diuretics, had a bi-ventricular pacemaker, caught staph, had the pacemaker removed so staph could be cleared, schlepped around an IV pump and antibiotics for an additional 12 weeks....Last few years were exciting. That's just the highlights. Of course, I also tried a few things on my own that I won't go into here because they were entirely self-experimentation, but something worked.
But back to your question, yes at one time my EF was 18%. I was so crappy that my echocardiogram was done using dobutamine. I was so out of it I couldn't get to the treadmill. Did I mention that I was real tired?

AG

[almostgone]

That was one of the advantages of getting access to a teaching university. They had access to several drugs that were still in trial stages. At the time I was 40 and just couldn't see myself gong through the workup to be put on the transplant list. Too many younger kids that needed it much worse than I did. Plus all of the crap that the immuno-suppressant drugs would bring in just didn't sound very inviting.
But at 44 I'm still plunking along with a borderline 35-40% EF so I consider myself LUCKY/FORTUNATE.

AG

[BrokenBricks]

When I was first diagnosed several years ago it was. Since then I've been throght a variety of Beta-blockers , diuretics, had a bi-ventricular pacemaker, caught staph, had the pacemaker removed so staph, could be cleared, schlepped around an IV pump and antibiotics for an additional 12 weeks....Last few years were exciting. That's just the highlights. Of course, I also tried a few things on my own that I won't go into here because they were entirely self-experimentation, but something worked.
But back to your question, yes at one time my EF was 18%. I was so crappy that my echocardiogram was done using dobutamine. I was so out of it I couldn't get to the treadmill. Did I mention that I was real tired?

AG

I'm sorry you are going through all of this. Viral myocarditis is quite rare.

[almostgone]

I know the name sounds somewhat gay, but coxsackie B virus is what is thought to be the original culprit of my problems. I'm told the actual virus is somewhat common in my area of the country. When it got into my system it wreaked havoc and everything from there on was a downward spiral.
I'm sure you have seen plenty of these type cases though.
One of the moments I found most aggravating at the time but that I now find somewhat funny occurred at the cardiologists offices. There were so many people older than me and of course they all wanted to know why I was there. They would ask what was wrong, i would run through the whole thing, and then they would diagnose me.....It seems that most of the older patients either had angioplasties or stents inserted. I would tell them "Thank you, but that's not really going to help me." Their reply.....OHH, you've got to get a stent/angioplasty. You'll feel SO much better....Yep, you need a stent..It was actually quite comical.

AG

[almostgone]

I'm sorry you are going through all of this. Viral myocarditis is quite rare.

Thanks, but like I said I'm still vertical and still able to work/moderately lift so it's all good. I enjoyed the discussion, BrokenBricks, but I honestly didn't mean to hijack the thread.

AG

[BrokenBricks]

I know the name sounds somewhat gay, but coxsackie B virus is what is thought to be the original culprit of my problems. I'm the actual virus is somewhat common in my area of the country. When it got into my system it wreaked havoc and everything from there on was a downward spiral.
I'm sure you have seen plenty of these type cases though.
One of the moments I found most aggravating at the time but that I now find somewhat funny occurred at the cardiologists offices. There were so many people older than me and of course they all wanted to know why I was there. They would ask what was wrong, i would run through the whole thing, and then they would diagnose me.....It seems that most of the older patients either had angioplasties or stents inserted. I would tell them "Thank you, but that's not really going to help me." Their reply.....OHH, you've got to get a stent/angioplasty. You'll feel SO much better....Yep, you need a stent..It was actually quite comical.

AG

I don't ever recall seeing a case personally. I have a vague recollection of some kids with cardiomyopathy during my pediatric rotation in medical school which may have been due to a viral illness but I cannot be sure. Every single CHF patient I have seen since medical school has been due to a previous MI, cocaine abuse or hypertension.

[almostgone]

I don't ever recall seeing a case personally. I have a vague recollection of some kids with cardiomyopathy during my pediatric rotation in medical school which may have been due to a viral illness but I cannot be sure. Every single CHF patient I have seen since medical school has been due to a previous MI, cocaine abuse or hypertension.

Either way, I enjoyed the banter. I will say that you guys in the medical field have it rough, especially the hours that I have seen put into a days work! ......and I apologize to everyone else for hijacking the thread. It seems BrokenBricks and I speak the same language in certain areas.

AG

[DCannon]

I totally agree with you. Actually my favorite chemicals, ephedrine caffeine and aspirin are all not prescription and "natural". All of them have been used since before modern medicine existed in herbal preparations. What I object to is false dichotomy between "drugs" (ie, prescription medications) and the "all natural" "organic" "from mother earth so you know its safe" "non-drugs". There are new age hippie type thinkers who think that because something exists in nature it must be safer or better for you. This is a serious error. Many many of modern medicines drugs came from nature, but coming from nature is not what made them worthwhile. It was careful experimentation and rigorous science that weeded out the good from the deadly. The error people make is not in acknowledging that some chemicals found in nature are useful, it is in thinking that *because* its from nature claims of its safety and efficacy are more credible. The OP, while not directly making these claims seems to be moseying along that road.

All I was saying was I prefer to try other options before taking prescription or otc meds. I wasn't saying all herbals are better or that they are all safe. I have had two failed kidney transplants and been on many different types of meds, including several blood pressure meds, and now I just personally would rather take them when necessary. For example, I recently had two surgeries to repair two torn tendons and I couldn't imagine getting through them with just some herbal meds. I know that just because something comes from nature doesn't mean it's safe. Having kidney failure I know there are many herbs that if taken incorrectly can be very toxic and even cause renal failure. Anyways, I appreciate your concern and thanks for bringing up a good point about the difference between prescription and "natural" meds.