Need a PH cycle for cutting

[bigslick7878]

And other supplements to go with it, heard about 11-oxo to stack but know nothing about it.

Researching right now.

Been trying to cut naturally over the last month but progress is extremely slow, even though I am busting my ass doing an hour of cardio every morning before I eat. I have a fairly slender body type too (5'10 200) just some annoying pec and stomach fat that will not go away.

Main goal is to retain muscle and get rid of the fat. I have about 4 bottles of Spawn and was reading up and that might be the way to, only PH I have not done yet and supposedly they are extremely lean gains.

Don't want to mess with clen right now, I might save that for the end of the cycle to finish off.

I have all types of ideas going through my head, but I have never been about cutting and my knowledge in that area is lacking somewhat.

Any input would be appreciated.

[HawaiianPride.]

If you want to preserve muscle I suggest you think twice about fasted cardio. I would also advise you implement HIIT cardio as well to aid in fat loss.

Now, I'm out of the loop in regards to PH's and what's still out and what isn't. But I had great success with CEL's H-drol. A great product along side the right diet and training will definitely lean you up a bit. Don't forget Cycle Assist with any PH cycle.

[bigslick7878]

If you want to preserve muscle I suggest you think twice about fasted cardio. I would also advise you implement HIIT cardio as well to aid in fat loss.

Explain. I have never heard any negatives like losing muscle doing cardio on empty, just the opposite. I know there will be some muscle loss with any type of cutting program, but compared to doing it say after a workout I thought the benefits were many. I take 5g of Glutamine and 5g of BCAA when I have 10 minutes left on my cardio in the morning to preserve muscle as well.

Now, I'm out of the loop in regards to PH's and what's still out and what isn't. But I had great success with CEL's H-drol. A great product along side the right diet and training will definitely lean you up a bit. Don't forget Cycle Assist with any PH cycle.

I have done Hdrol before, but from everything I have been reading the gains on a tren based compound like Spawn are even leaner and you won't hold as much water. Fat loss is even greater as well. I have been reading up all day and I think I am going to do the Spawn, mainly so I can add even more cardio in without worrying about losing the muscle I have.

Going to add yohimbe, green tea extract and CLA to the mix as well. Heard very good things about all 3 in regards to getting the metabolism and fat loss going.

[HawaiianPride.]

Sure thing.

"Myths Under The Microscope Part 2: False Hopes for Fasted Cardio

By Alan Aragon

False Hopes

The bandwagon is lead by blind horses

Many trainees pigeonhole weight training as an activity exclusively for building muscle, and cardio exclusively for burning fat. On the contrary, weight training can yield very similar results to cardio of similar intensity when 24-hr energy expenditure and macronutrient oxidation is measured [1]. The obvious advantage of weight training is the higher potential for lean mass and strength gains. In the bodybuilding context, cardio should be viewed as merely an adjunctive training mode to further energy expenditure and cross-complement the adaptations specific to weight training. As far as cardio being absolutely necessary for cardiovascular health, well, that depends upon the overall volume and magnitude of your weight training - another topic for another time.

Chaos theory strikes again

On the surface, it seems logical to separate carbs from cardio if you want a maximal degree of fat oxidation to occur during training. But, there’s the underlying mistake - focusing on stored fuel usage during training instead of focusing on optimally partitioning exogenous fuel for maximal lipolytic effect around the clock. Put another way, it’s a better objective to coincide your carb intake with your day’s thermic peaks, where insulin sensitivity & lean tissue reception to carbs is highest. For some reason, this logic is not easily accepted, nor understood. As we know, human physiology doesn’t always cooperate with logic or popular opinion, so let’s scrutinize the science behind the claims.

Let The Research Speak

Carbohydrate ingestion during low-intensity exercise reduces fat oxidation

As far as 3 decades back, Ahlborg’s team observed that carb ingestion during low-intensity exercise (25-45% VO2 max) reduced fat oxidation compared to fasted levels [2]. More recently, De Glisezinski’s team observed similar results in trained men at 50% VO2 max [3]. Efforts to determine the mechanism behind this phenomenon have been made. Coyle’s team observed that at 50% VO2 max, carbohydrate availability can directly regulate fat oxidation by coordinating hyperinsulinemia to inhibit long-chain fatty acid transport into mitochondria [4].

Carbohydrate’s effect on fat oxidation during moderate-intensity exercise depends on conditioning level


Civitarese’s team found glucose ingestion during exercise to blunt lipolysis via decreasing the gene expression involved in fat oxidation in untrained men [5]. Wallis’ team saw suppressed fat oxidation in moderately trained men & women when glucose was ingested during exercise [6].

In contrast to the above trials on beginning and intermediate trainees, Coyle’s team repeatedly showed that carb ingestion during moderate-intensity (65-75% VO2 max) does not reduce fat oxidation during the first 120 min of exercise in trained men [7,8]. Interestingly, the intensity margin proximal to where fat oxidation is highest was unaffected by carb ingestion, and remained so for the first 2 hours of exercise.

Horowitz’ team examined the effect of a during-training solution of high-glycemic carbs on moderately trained men undergoing either low intensity exercise (25% VO2 max) or high-moderate intensity (68% VO2 max) [9]. Similar results to Coyle’s work were seen. Subjects completed a 2-hr cycling bout, and ingested the carb solution at 30, 60, and 90 minutes in. In the low-intensity treatment, fat oxidation was not reduced below fasted-state control group’s levels until 80-90 min of exercise. In the 68% group, no difference in fat oxidation was seen whether subjects were fasted or fed throughout the trial.

Further supporting the evidence in favor of fed cardio in trained men, Febbraio’s team investigated the effects of carb ingestion pre & during training in easily one of the best-designed trials on this topic [10]. Subjects exercised for 2 hrs at an intensity level of 63% VO2 max, which is now known as the point of maximal fat oxidation during exercise. Result? Pre & during-training carbs increased performance - and there was no difference in total fat oxidation between the fasted and fed subjects. Despite the elevated insulin levels in the carb-fueled groups, there was no difference in fat availability or fat utilization.



Summing Up the Research Findings

• At low intensities (25-50% VO2 max), carbs during exercise reduce fat oxidation compared to fasted trainees.
• At moderate intensities (63-68% VO2 max) carbs during exercise may reduce fat oxidation in untrained subjects, but do not reduce fat oxidation in trained subjects for at least the first 80-120 minutes of exercise.
• Carbohydrate during exercise spares liver glycogen, which is among the most critical factors for anticatabolism during hypocaloric & other conditions of metabolic stress. This protective hepatic effect is absent in fasted cardio.
• At the established intensity level of peak fat oxidation (~63% VO2 max), carbohydrate increases performance without any suppression of fat oxidation in trained subjects.



References

Melanson EL, et al. Resistance and aerobic exercise have similar effects on 24-h nutrient oxidation.. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2002 Nov;34(11):1793-800.
Ahlborg, G., and P. Felig. Influence of glucose ingestion on fuel-hormone response during prolonged exercise. J. Appl. Physiol. 1976;41:683-688.
De Glisezinski I, et al. Effect of carbohydrate ingestion on adipose tissue lipolysis during long-lasting exercise in trained men. J Appl Physiol. 1998 May;84(5):1627-32.
Coyle EF, et al. Fatty acid oxidation is directly regulated by carbohydrate metabolism during exercise. Am J Physiol. 1997 Aug;273(2 Pt 1):E268-75.
Civitarese AE, et al. Glucose ingestion during exercise blunts exercise-induced gene expression of skeletal muscle fat oxidative genes. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2005 Dec;289(6):E1023-9.
Wallis GA, et al. Metabolic response to carbohydrate ingestion during exercise in males and females. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2006 Apr;290(4):E708-15.
Coyle, et al. Muscle glycogen utilization during prolonged strenuous exercise when fed carbohydrate. J. Appl. Physiol. 1986;6:165-172.
Coyle, et al.. Carbohydrates during prolonged strenuous exercise can delay fatigue. J. Appl. Physiol. 59: 429-433, 1983.
Horowitz JF, et al. Substrate metabolism when subjects are fed carbohydrate during exercise. Am J Physiol. 1999 May;276(5 Pt 1):E828-35.
Febbraio MA, et al. Effects of carbohydrate ingestion before and during exercise on glucose kinetics and exercise performance. J Appl Physiol. 2000 Dec;89(6):2220-6."

[bigslick7878]

Sure thing.

"Myths Under The Microscope Part 2: False Hopes for Fasted Cardio

By Alan Aragon

False Hopes

The bandwagon is lead by blind horses

Many trainees pigeonhole weight training as an activity exclusively for building muscle, and cardio exclusively for burning fat. On the contrary, weight training can yield very similar results to cardio of similar intensity when 24-hr energy expenditure and macronutrient oxidation is measured [1]. The obvious advantage of weight training is the higher potential for lean mass and strength gains. In the bodybuilding context, cardio should be viewed as merely an adjunctive training mode to further energy expenditure and cross-complement the adaptations specific to weight training. As far as cardio being absolutely necessary for cardiovascular health, well, that depends upon the overall volume and magnitude of your weight training - another topic for another time.

Chaos theory strikes again

On the surface, it seems logical to separate carbs from cardio if you want a maximal degree of fat oxidation to occur during training. But, there’s the underlying mistake - focusing on stored fuel usage during training instead of focusing on optimally partitioning exogenous fuel for maximal lipolytic effect around the clock. Put another way, it’s a better objective to coincide your carb intake with your day’s thermic peaks, where insulin sensitivity & lean tissue reception to carbs is highest. For some reason, this logic is not easily accepted, nor understood. As we know, human physiology doesn’t always cooperate with logic or popular opinion, so let’s scrutinize the science behind the claims.

Let The Research Speak

Carbohydrate ingestion during low-intensity exercise reduces fat oxidation

As far as 3 decades back, Ahlborg’s team observed that carb ingestion during low-intensity exercise (25-45% VO2 max) reduced fat oxidation compared to fasted levels [2]. More recently, De Glisezinski’s team observed similar results in trained men at 50% VO2 max [3]. Efforts to determine the mechanism behind this phenomenon have been made. Coyle’s team observed that at 50% VO2 max, carbohydrate availability can directly regulate fat oxidation by coordinating hyperinsulinemia to inhibit long-chain fatty acid transport into mitochondria [4].

Carbohydrate’s effect on fat oxidation during moderate-intensity exercise depends on conditioning level


Civitarese’s team found glucose ingestion during exercise to blunt lipolysis via decreasing the gene expression involved in fat oxidation in untrained men [5]. Wallis’ team saw suppressed fat oxidation in moderately trained men & women when glucose was ingested during exercise [6].

In contrast to the above trials on beginning and intermediate trainees, Coyle’s team repeatedly showed that carb ingestion during moderate-intensity (65-75% VO2 max) does not reduce fat oxidation during the first 120 min of exercise in trained men [7,8]. Interestingly, the intensity margin proximal to where fat oxidation is highest was unaffected by carb ingestion, and remained so for the first 2 hours of exercise.

Horowitz’ team examined the effect of a during-training solution of high-glycemic carbs on moderately trained men undergoing either low intensity exercise (25% VO2 max) or high-moderate intensity (68% VO2 max) [9]. Similar results to Coyle’s work were seen. Subjects completed a 2-hr cycling bout, and ingested the carb solution at 30, 60, and 90 minutes in. In the low-intensity treatment, fat oxidation was not reduced below fasted-state control group’s levels until 80-90 min of exercise. In the 68% group, no difference in fat oxidation was seen whether subjects were fasted or fed throughout the trial.

Further supporting the evidence in favor of fed cardio in trained men, Febbraio’s team investigated the effects of carb ingestion pre & during training in easily one of the best-designed trials on this topic [10]. Subjects exercised for 2 hrs at an intensity level of 63% VO2 max, which is now known as the point of maximal fat oxidation during exercise. Result? Pre & during-training carbs increased performance - and there was no difference in total fat oxidation between the fasted and fed subjects. Despite the elevated insulin levels in the carb-fueled groups, there was no difference in fat availability or fat utilization.



Summing Up the Research Findings

• At low intensities (25-50% VO2 max), carbs during exercise reduce fat oxidation compared to fasted trainees.
• At moderate intensities (63-68% VO2 max) carbs during exercise may reduce fat oxidation in untrained subjects, but do not reduce fat oxidation in trained subjects for at least the first 80-120 minutes of exercise.
• Carbohydrate during exercise spares liver glycogen, which is among the most critical factors for anticatabolism during hypocaloric & other conditions of metabolic stress. This protective hepatic effect is absent in fasted cardio.
• At the established intensity level of peak fat oxidation (~63% VO2 max), carbohydrate increases performance without any suppression of fat oxidation in trained subjects.



References

Melanson EL, et al. Resistance and aerobic exercise have similar effects on 24-h nutrient oxidation.. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2002 Nov;34(11):1793-800.
Ahlborg, G., and P. Felig. Influence of glucose ingestion on fuel-hormone response during prolonged exercise. J. Appl. Physiol. 1976;41:683-688.
De Glisezinski I, et al. Effect of carbohydrate ingestion on adipose tissue lipolysis during long-lasting exercise in trained men. J Appl Physiol. 1998 May;84(5):1627-32.
Coyle EF, et al. Fatty acid oxidation is directly regulated by carbohydrate metabolism during exercise. Am J Physiol. 1997 Aug;273(2 Pt 1):E268-75.
Civitarese AE, et al. Glucose ingestion during exercise blunts exercise-induced gene expression of skeletal muscle fat oxidative genes. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2005 Dec;289(6):E1023-9.
Wallis GA, et al. Metabolic response to carbohydrate ingestion during exercise in males and females. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2006 Apr;290(4):E708-15.
Coyle, et al. Muscle glycogen utilization during prolonged strenuous exercise when fed carbohydrate. J. Appl. Physiol. 1986;6:165-172.
Coyle, et al.. Carbohydrates during prolonged strenuous exercise can delay fatigue. J. Appl. Physiol. 59: 429-433, 1983.
Horowitz JF, et al. Substrate metabolism when subjects are fed carbohydrate during exercise. Am J Physiol. 1999 May;276(5 Pt 1):E828-35.
Febbraio MA, et al. Effects of carbohydrate ingestion before and during exercise on glucose kinetics and exercise performance. J Appl Physiol. 2000 Dec;89(6):2220-6."

That is a nice study, but I am sure you are aware that it flies in the face of pretty much every recommendation on when the best time to do cardio is to maximize fat loss, including every pro who post on this board and competes.

I am not saying it does not have merit, but I have done extensive reading here and elsewhere and have not seen one knowledgeable person who says cardio on empty is not the optimal way to lose fat and use that for fuel when your glycogen levels are down.

I would like to hear what Fireguy has to say about it, I have read all of his stuff and he does like 45 min low intensity and then 45 min HIIT every morning before he eats preparing for a show to cut like 4 months out IIRC.

I am far from an expert on this stuff but if there is one thing most agree on it is that cardio on an empty stomach is the way to go.

Are they ALL wrong?? After all these years and countless studies you would think that it was impossible to see so many people be so wrong on a major part of training.

[HawaiianPride.]

I would love for anyone to come in and discuss the idea of fasted cardio vs. fed. This is why I love forums. It's great to hear peoples personal experiences and review their studies, while I share my experience and my studies for debate.

Now, I never said anyone or any method was wrong, I simply implied to consider all ideas and viewpoints regarding optimal fat loss reduction. I personally train with people that undergo fasted cardiovascular training as almost like a holy ritual. Do I condone the use of it? No. Simply because if ones goal is to try and preserve muscle while dieting down, why would one want to reduce meal frequency first thing in the morning and then exercise in a semi-starved state. But I've seen and heard about this method being very effective with people. There really is no right or wrong answer here.

However, I can see how BCAA's would be a viable option, delivering insuligenic amino acids. This along with a Banana would be the closest I would ever go to fasted.

Layne Norton has a little writing that favors fasted:

""Do 45 minutes of low intensity cardio (walking) 3 days a week in the morning BEFORE BREAKFAST! This is a very overlooked part of the cutting process, cardio will really get you shredded. Doing it in the morning before breakfast has two benefit over cardio at any other time of the day.

Since you've gone 8 hours without any nutrients your glycogen levels will already be very low and all you're body will be able to use for energy will be your stored body fat.

Numerous studies show doing cardio in the morning before breakfast stimulates a greater than normal release of growth hormone and also keep growth hormone levels elevated throughout the day. Growth hormone is one of the most powerful fat burning hormones in the body so you can see plainly why doing cardio before breakfast is a huge plus!"

This may be a viable method as well since it's only "low intensity". However, this writing is severly outdated now (9 years I believe), and he has changed his opinion since writing this article, due to further research.

This just goes to show that keeping an open mind is one of the most vital aspects to being successful in the world of bodybuilding. I'm not suggesting you should accept every new idea proposed and incorporate it into your program, but rather you shouldn't immediately dismiss it.

[bcaasdirty]

Morning cardio pre-breakfast was a staple during training for my show. I would do 45-60min low impact, low intensity cardio 5x week. In my experience it did help me shed excess weight.

Megadosing BCAAs (30g/day) helped in preserving muscle during my training as well

[bigslick7878]

This may be a viable method as well since it's only "low intensity". However, this writing is severly outdated now (9 years I believe), and he has changed his opinion since writing this article, due to further research.

This just goes to show that keeping an open mind is one of the most vital aspects to being successful in the world of bodybuilding. I'm not suggesting you should accept every new idea proposed and incorporate it into your program, but rather you shouldn't immediately dismiss it.

The cardio I do is definitely low intensity, 55% max heart rate. And believe me I have an open mind to anything, that is why I did not dismiss it I said 'explain".

Morning cardio pre-breakfast was a staple during training for my show. I would do 45-60min low impact, low intensity cardio 5x week. In my experience it did help me shed excess weight.

Megadosing BCAAs (30g/day) helped in preserving muscle during my training as well

When exactly do you megadose?? Is it throughout the day, all at once?

In conjunction with my workout I take another 5g BCAA pre, and another 5g near the end along with a host of other aminos. Off days as well.

So actually I am around 15g a day unless I don't do any cardio that day which is rare maybe once a week. Now that I think about it I could get powder instead of caps and mix a drink for while I am doing the cardio. Caps are way more expensive and it would be much easier to have the BCAA mixed in a drink while I am doing the cardio.

[bcaasdirty]

The cardio I do is definitely low intensity, 55% max heart rate. And believe me I have an open mind to anything, that is why I did not dismiss it I said 'explain".



When exactly do you megadose?? Is it throughout the day, all at once?

In conjunction with my workout I take another 5g BCAA pre, and another 5g near the end along with a host of other aminos. Off days as well.

So actually I am around 15g a day unless I don't do any cardio that day which is rare maybe once a week. Now that I think about it I could get powder instead of caps and mix a drink for while I am doing the cardio. Caps are way more expensive and it would be much easier to have the BCAA mixed in a drink while I am doing the cardio.

I would split the dosing evenly to 3x throughout the day

I was using bulk BCAA powder that I would mix in water---tasted ABSOLUTELY horrible but i dealt w/ it anyways ><

10g first thing waking up b4 cardio
10g mixed in with water WHILE working out
10g before bed

This protocol helped me preserve as much muscle as I could during my training for the show measured by my lifts not faltering in weight (at least not as much if I hadnt taken them LOL)

[...aydn...]

11-sterone, x tren , are good for cutting. but i would not use these.

use a good diet and low insulin diet and slowly taper in cardio and slowly taper out complex carbs. when you notice you burning fat just keep doing what your doing. dont do anything radical.

[rickrick55]

Ever heard of *** Epistane? I did a cycle of it and had awesome results..I started at about 225 and 15% bf..when all was said and done i ended at about 230 12%..my diet was awesome though. Check it out though..stuff is legit.

[...aydn...]

its how you get there not being there.

[...aydn...]

yo bcaa'sdirty im am coming up to a show. im about 8 weeks out. i am adding 3x fasted cardio mon,wed,fri. i have been doing short intense cardio, like only 15 but hard out. does this sound ok?

[Machdiesel]

If you want a good cut stack try this
Week 1-6
H-drol 75 mg Ed
Clen Work up to 100mcg(up to 140 if you can handle it)ED
Cytomel (T3) depends on the person ED

Week 7-10
Nolva. 40/20/10/10
Clen/T3 same as 1-6
Benadryl or keto week 4 and 8

You could use any lrohomone you'd like, I chose H-drop because you can run
it for 6weeks, is Milder then spawn so you will recover better, and is a great recomp/cut PH

[bcaasdirty]

yo bcaa'sdirty im am coming up to a show. im about 8 weeks out. i am adding 3x fasted cardio mon,wed,fri. i have been doing short intense cardio, like only 15 but hard out. does this sound ok?

good luck on the show bro!

i cant comment on HIIT cardio as i did not do it in prep for my show...I took the old school AM fasted cardio, low intensity, low impact for 45-60min approach

HIIT has always piqued my interest, but as far as show prep is concerned I was EXTREMELY conservative with my approach on 'impact' & intensity as a way of preventing muscular catabolism and preserving as much muskle as possible

sorry i cant elaborate further