sets for delts?

[Flexor]

I've been squatting to rock bottom for over 30 years.

In that case, you might be one of the lucky ones. SwoleCat was not...

Perhaps the doctors are wrong, perhaps they are not. They deal with these cases everyday, but they are probably only in the minority still.

[Flexor]

With over 600 pounds mind you.

Daaayyymm

That is nuts. Those kind of maximal weights are scary!

Papi93, I notice you lurking. What is your opinion on all this dude?

[sputnik]

Flexor, there’s nothing wrong with ppl disagreeing.

Let me point out that benches are in fact the most notorious lift causing shoulder injuries. Period. Not the overhead press. I am an example of that, DESPITE using super strict form whilst benching and not using an wide grip.

As to squatting, have to disagree on that. There are actually many studies indicating that ‘stopping’ urself at parallel is more of a worry and puts more stress on your knees. Anecdotally, those who have compared just going to parallel versus going further down have spoken about how stopping at parallel put more pressure on their knees and doesn’t feel normal compared to going all the way down. One should squat as deep as they can, as long as your back does not round.

Big Mike, mate that is outstanding. And you’re a bodybuilder right? Allt he more power to you.

[NYC BIG MIKE]

Yeah I'm a bodybuilder but I've been doing power movements since the beginning. I'm 43 now, I don't go over 5 plates (495 for 5 reps x 3 sets) anymore. I'm short (5'8") and thick (275 pounds) so I'm sorta built for it, if ya know what I mean. Like I said in an above post in this thread, I work on thickness and go to detail for shows. Thanks for the kudos, wasn't bragging just making a point.

[sputnik]

I’m no bodybuilder but I reckon what ur doing is top notch. Building thickness, and then taking care of definition for shows. Perfect. And man, few bodybuilders squat those sort of numbers AND go anywhere near parallel. A thing of beauty I tell you.

[Papi93]

Big Mike, I was going to say that side laterals and front raises are potential shoulder wreckers…however u performed in contests so it’s understandable to fine tune your look with isolation movements.

Flexor, I would disagree, overhead pressing is the king of shoulder development and has been since at least the 1930’s. Just have a look at the old timers and their cannon ball shoulders. Isolation movements are useful for example, but only for polishing up the look. You need something like overhead pressing with a combination of benches, push presses one arm dumbbell pressing to build some meat on them shoulders.

Front raises, are pointless IMO. You receive plenty of stimulation from bench pressing and shoulder pressing. Overhead pressing, to the front, will result in less shoulder injuries than bench pressing. Check out articles by Pavel Tsatsouline and he will give you excellent examples of shoulder pressing for shoulder and core strength. He's not a bodybuilder so he is more concerned with optimum function rather than appearance. Bodybuilding can lead to muscle imbalances more easily than strength training for optimal function.

[NYC BIG MIKE]

I work out with a few pros, and they are pretty hard core (my guys) but they tell me alot of stories about some top level pros who only squat on smith machines because they don't wanna get hurt. They already have the mass, just keeping it to get paid ($$$$). Can't blame them I suppose. I gave up my quest for turning pro years ago when i saw so many make it and 2 years later they were back home again looking for work. Very few can make a living at it and the cost of all those drugs are astronomical. Then you have those who sell out (gay for pay) and can't look at themselves in the mirror. It's a fvcked up sport.

[Papi93]

Compound exercises are the ONLY way to go, except lateral raises are necessary as there is no other way to use the medial deltoid for what it is ideally meant for, abducting the shoulder to 90 degrees. Laterals are not isolating anyway, the anterior deltoid, traps and supraspinatus are all involved. They may not be a compound exercise, but they aren't isolating either.

One multi-joint exercise, I believe, you could use for working the medial deltoids is wide-grip upright rows. Traditional upright rows, to the chin, can wreak havoc on the shoulder joints for many individuals. Keep the bar as close to the torso as possible and pull the bar up until the upper arms are parallel with the floor. This is as close as you can get to a compound exercise for the medial deltoids. What do you think Flexor?

[NYC BIG MIKE]

One multi-joint exercise, I believe, you could use for working the medial deltoids is wide-grip upright rows. Traditional upright rows, to the chin, can wreak havoc on the shoulder joints for many individuals. Keep the bar as close to the torso as possible and pull the bar up until the upper arms are parallel with the floor. This is as close as you can get to a compound exercise for the medial deltoids. What do you think Flexor?

This wide grip upright row is dead-on similar to the high pull I spoke about earlier in this thread.

[Papi93]

This wide grip upright row is dead-on similar to the high pull I spoke about earlier in this thread.

Wide-grip upright row I always gave as an exercise to my clients that wanted muscle mass in the medial delts.
High pulls I gave to my clients that were athletes or wanted to just function better overall. It really teaches you triple extension of these joints. Very valuable for explosiveness. Most of the power should be generated from the legs, though.

[NYC BIG MIKE]

Wide-grip upright row I always gave as an exercise to my clients that wanted muscle mass in the medial delts.
High pulls I gave to my clients that were athletes or wanted to just function better overall. It really teaches you triple extension of these joints. Very valuable for explosiveness. Most of the power should be generated from the legs, though.

You obviously didn't read the post I was referring too.

[Papi93]

I should have said, done the way it was improvised to help bodybuilders. Olympic lifters do indeed use speed and technique to get under the bar and traps are used. Almost every top name bodybuilder was doing high pulls in the late 70's/early 80's (that's where I fvcked up, I called it "olympic" high pulls) on shoulder days as a staple movement. It's done with alot of weight, a lil bit of a cheat swing and hands are about 12 inches apart on the bar and you literally pull from the shoulders to about forehead level elbows out to the side. It's a great movement adopted from olympic lifting.

I wasn't disagreeing with your thread, just explaining my experience with the exercise. I just read it right now. Hey, give me a break, you guys have wrote a book on shoulder training today and yesterday . I modify exercises to meet my goals, as well.

[NYC BIG MIKE]

Actually it's too bad others don't frequent this part of the forum. Having 2 degrees in exercise physiology myself (I see you are a sportsmed major too) I find this shit fascinating. I just wondered into this part like a day ago though. Good minds on this thread. Flexor, Sputnik and Papi, keep up the good posts.

[sputnik]

2 degrees in exercise physiology? Very impressed. Do you work in the field also? I must say I’ve often thought about doing a degree in that area on the side, as I work in funds management/financial markets. Maybe one day.

[NYC BIG MIKE]

I do actually. I am a personal trainer and I design corporate gyms as well.

[sputnik]

That’s great. Any recommendation on what to look into if I ever decide to do a physiology degree or other studies?

[NYC BIG MIKE]

That’s great. Any recommendation on what to look into if I ever decide to do a physiology degree or other studies?

Not sure I understand the context of the question. "Look into" as far as what is concerned? Schools? Career path? Majors?

[sputnik]

sorry Mike, i meant type of degrees/majors, as opposed to schools, since Im from Sydney.

[NYC BIG MIKE]

There is a whole spectrum here that we could cover. The lazy ones go into Recreation Leadership, which is a watered down Phys Ed degree. Phys Ed has it's perks if you wanna teach or coach. Sports Medicine is basically the same as Exercise Physiology. You can go anywhere with those....training, research, teaching, etc. Then you have specifics like anatomy, kiniesiology, physiology and I suppose biology. Most that go into the specifics ( all prerequisites to my major) in great detail usually end up teaching or doing research and some write. Does that help at all? If not I can elaborate if you ask specifics.

[sputnik]

Thanks for that. Yeah I guess I'd be interested in sports med, though not sure what I'd specialise in as it's all a bit fuzzy in my head right now.

[Papi93]

Daaayyymm

That is nuts. Those kind of maximal weights are scary!

Papi93, I notice you lurking. What is your opinion on all this dude?

I wanted to say all of you have valid points. I think we can learn something from other. When I want to stop learning, I will find another passion in life (maybe pro-wrestling, if I wasn't so damn old).

[Papi93]

As to squatting, have to disagree on that. There are actually many studies indicating that ‘stopping’ urself at parallel is more of a worry and puts more stress on your knees. Anecdotally, those who have compared just going to parallel versus going further down have spoken about how stopping at parallel put more pressure on their knees and doesn’t feel normal compared to going all the way down. One should squat as deep as they can, as long as your back does not round.

Personally, I prefer box squatting to parallel. You have to be careful with full ROM squats because there is a tendency, at the bottom, to let your back round. With the box squat, it really teaches you to put the stress in the glutes and hamstrings by sitting back in the movement. Again, this might not be a great bodybuilding exercise but it is an excellent tool to teach someone how to squat properly. Your hip extensors (glutes and hamstrings) are much stronger than your knee extensors (quads). This will help with stress that is placed upon the knees.

[sputnik]

I certainly agree, there is a tendency for people to round their backs. Which is why people should squat to just before that point. However, it is all a question of flexibility. This is something I had to work on and I could only squat to parallel, and then my back would round. Having worked on flexibility, I now go much deeper without rounding.

Box squats have their place for sure. But I only recommend them for those wanting to up their squatting poundage and who are already squatting around 300lbs. I do believe there is a tendency (and I have seen clips of Westside guys doing this) for box squatters to relax their muscles as they hit the box., which is a no no.

I once had a 130 pound kid come up to me after squatting in the rack to tell me he was going to do Westside stuff and was going to box squat. This kid I don’t even think could do 110lbs! So I told him to learn to squat first and to build his poundage up before trying that. Just my thoughts.

[Papi93]

I certainly agree, there is a tendency for people to round their backs. Which is why people should squat to just before that point. However, it is all a question of flexibility. This is something I had to work on and I could only squat to parallel, and then my back would round. Having worked on flexibility, I now go much deeper without rounding.

Box squats have their place for sure. But I only recommend them for those wanting to up their squatting poundage and who are already squatting around 300lbs. I do believe there is a tendency (and I have seen clips of Westside guys doing this) for box squatters to relax their muscles as they hit the box., which is a no no.

I once had a 130 pound kid come up to me after squatting in the rack to tell me he was going to do Westside stuff and was going to box squat. This kid I don’t even think could do 110lbs! So I told him to learn to squat first and to build his poundage up before trying that. Just my thoughts.

Flexibility is definitely a limiting factor in squat depth.

We will have to disagree on beginners box squatting. I think that it teaches them to sit back instead of sitting down. When you sit down, you are really more on your quads and thus putting more stress on your knees. You will never be able to squat as much weight with a "bodybuilding" style squat.

As far as Westside goes, I believe Simmons recommends relaxing the legs (hip flexors I think he said) on the box before beginning the concentric phase. If my memory serves me correct, I think he does this to develop starting strength.

[sputnik]

Yeah we'll have to respectfully disagree , but I do see your point though. From my point of view I just reckon its not so good for noobs. But anywways....isnn't this thread about overhead pressing?

[NYC BIG MIKE]

Yeah we wen't full circle here.

[Papi93]

Yeah we'll have to respectfully disagree , but I do see your point though. From my point of view I just reckon its not so good for noobs. But anywways....isnn't this thread about overhead pressing?

I don't think Chest would mind.

[sputnik]

Actually Papi, what r ur thoughts on front squats then, which are done by most for full ROM….and in particular Oly lifters do these close stance, just as they do back squats too…

[Papi93]

Actually Papi, what r ur thoughts on front squats then, which are done by most for full ROM….and in particular Oly lifters do these close stance, just as they do back squats too…

Olympic lifters are a different story. They need to train specifically for their sport. Their front squats would need to be specific to their movement pattern. You, obviously, wouldn't use a "bodybuilder" crossed-arm position to rack the barbell. You would need the barbell resting on the shoulders as if they just cleaned it. You would need to train a full ROM on all of their squatting exercises (overhead squats, etc.) to be sport specific.

[sputnik]

Sorry I didn’t explain what I was actually getting at…you talk about stress on the knees, so with regards to that I was asking what you thought of front squats. And also the fact that Oly lifters do their back squats, close stance, I guess, bodybuilder style.

[NYC BIG MIKE]

What exactly do you consider close stance? Knee to knee? Shoulder width? Elaborate.

[sputnik]

Mike, no exact science, I guess I mean normal stance or if u’ve ever seen any of the Oly guys train…what prob 30cm or a bit more feet apart?

[NYC BIG MIKE]

Damn, now I gotta go look for my ruler.

[NYC BIG MIKE]

We aren't metric here in the states. I squat feet about shoulder width apart. I had a former training partner years ago who could squat a boatload and he literally had both legs together (touching) and went to the floor with it. Unreal.

[sputnik]

Jesus ur joking (not about the metric thing, I know the US is slow on the uptake ) about that guy, wow!

[NYC BIG MIKE]

I thought I was the shit but when I squatted with him it was really pretty to watch. We competed together in the 80's. He was something.

[Papi93]

Sorry I didn’t explain what I was actually getting at…you talk about stress on the knees, so with regards to that I was asking what you thought of front squats. And also the fact that Oly lifters do their back squats, close stance, I guess, bodybuilder style.

As long as you do not have knee discomfort in the ROM, or knee discomfort after the workout, going full ROM is an option. It's just very rare for someone to have the flexibility to use a close stance and go full ROM.
I trained a physical therapist with two master degrees and she said that as long as the movement doesn't cause pain, during exercise performance and post-workout, you can include it into your program design.

[sputnik]

Cool with me….I actually find closer stance squats more comfortable than wide stance squats…I would even go so far as saying that I feel stronger with a closer stance….not knee to knee though!

[NYC BIG MIKE]

I like a closer stance too. Not knee to knee either.

[Flexor]

Going back to the overhead presses, I think the problems come in later life. You can ask any painter how their shoulders feel after working for twenty or thirty years as decorators, they will say when they paint ceilings their shoulders feel pudgy and the bones grind together. I think you are all right about bench pressing increasing the incidence and severity of shoulder injury, but I think shoulder pressing is more likely to lead to long term shoulder problems, not necessarily short term. Anyway, in my case I cannot do any form of shoulder press without feeling a nasty dull ache in my shoulder blade and shoulder. Arm wrestling probably has something to do with it on one side because it slackened the shoulder, but the other side is injury free and it still has a problem. I'm very weak in overhead pressing movements (they are only 30% what I bench and that is probably not a lot) because I have never done them and its unfortunate that I can't because of my joints. You guys are lucky...