sets for delts?

[chest6]

I was wondering if this was enough. I just got done from doing shoulders/traps tonight and I did this:

3 sets db press
3 sets side raises on an incline
3 sets front raises
3 sets rear raises

5 sets behind the back shrugs
2 sets db shrugs

Is that enough sets for delts? Should I do like 6 sets for each head or is it fine like I have it??

[Papi93]

I was wondering if this was enough. I just got done from doing shoulders/traps tonight and I did this:

3 sets db press
3 sets side raises on an incline
3 sets front raises
3 sets rear raises

5 sets behind the back shrugs
2 sets db shrugs

Is that enough sets for delts? Should I do like 6 sets for each head or is it fine like I have it??

I would drop the front raises and add lateral delt exercise in there. Most people don't lack in anterior delt develop. Something like:

4 sets Push Presses or Seated DB Shoulder Presses
4 sets Wide-Grip Upright Rows
4 sets Side Lateral Raises or Incline Side Lateral Raises
4 sets Bent-Over Lateral Raises
2 sets Barbell Shrugs/2 sets Behind-the-Back Barbell Shrugs or 4 sets Ian King DB Shrugs

3 sets are fine but I remember you said that you were cutting so maybe bump it up one more set on each exercise.

[chest6]

damn man..thats like 12 sets hittin the side delts..right?

[kaptainkeezy04]

dawg thats like 20 sets for a very small muscle...i only do 16 sets for legs..i dont think delts would need anymore than 9 heavy sets...you sure as hell hit them on chest day and on back day.

[Papi93]

damn man..thats like 12 sets hittin the side delts..right?

If you feel that is too much volume, cut out the wide-grip upright rows or decrease the sets to 3 for each exercise. You really need to base it off of your recovery capacity.

[Flexor]

You can't get away from the fact that the delts work synergistically. A front raise will recruit the medial deltoid a lot, just as a lateral raise will recruit the front deltoid a lot.

Forget rear raises, they are rubbish. Bent over rowing or rear delt rows is the way to go for making them grow on back day because you can use probably ten times as much weight. As for the medial delts, upright rowing is best as a mass exercise, but lots of people can't do it. Incline laterals will suffice. The front delt gets toasted during chest work, but if you have to work it, military presses and nothing else.

Basically:

3 x military press after chest workout
3 x wide grip upright rowing
3 x incline laterals

or

3 x military press
3 x incline laterals
2 x standing lateral drop sets

[BIGPHIL]

I was wondering if this was enough. I just got done from doing shoulders/traps tonight and I did this:

3 sets db press
3 sets side raises on an incline
3 sets front raises
3 sets rear raises

5 sets behind the back shrugs
2 sets db shrugs

Is that enough sets for delts? Should I do like 6 sets for each head or is it fine like I have it??

• i would drop the front raises.Front delts will be worked enough with DB press as long as you go to failure on them. you may use light front raises as part of your warm up
• rear raises and trap exercises i would leave to abck day were you can hit them all with the likes of deadlifts,chins,barbell rows e.t.c
• i would leave the db preses to last and do the like of your lateral raises e.t.c first, also incude some cable laterals and really pump them up to get a complete burn and i encourage the use of drop sets negatives within these raises has really worked for me... Your delts will be lovely and warm for pressing and the plus side is you dont have to go as heavy.

MY shoulder workout

Seated db lateral raises (3sets) superset with cable laterals(light weight-go for complete burn!!)

isolated side lateral raises (2sets)

Behiind the neck presses (2 sets)


then i do rear delts and traps on back day

[chest6]

thats a lot guys that really helped out

[Keyser Sozey]

Here's my breakdown:

4 sets of standing bbell press, dbell press, or front raises (front delt)
4 sets of dbell side laterals (medial delt)
4 sets of bent over laterals (rear delt)

[Pinnacle]

You can't get away from the fact that the delts work synergistically. A front raise will recruit the medial deltoid a lot, just as a lateral raise will recruit the front deltoid a lot.

Forget rear raises, they are rubbish. Bent over rowing or rear delt rows is the way to go for making them grow on back day because you can use probably ten times as much weight. As for the medial delts, upright rowing is best as a mass exercise, but lots of people can't do it. Incline laterals will suffice. The front delt gets toasted during chest work, but if you have to work it, military presses and nothing else.

Basically:

3 x military press after chest workout
3 x wide grip upright rowing
3 x incline laterals

or

3 x military press
3 x incline laterals
2 x standing lateral drop sets

Yeah!!!It's great to see someone who understands you aren't suppose to kill your delts.

Here's what I do :

3 sets seated DB presses
2 sets of standing laterals
2 sets of either incline laterals(for the stretch)or cable laterals.

This is my routine for 2 weeks in between DC's training protocol(4weeks on/2 week off).During DC training my delts only get 3 sets per week(I hear the crowd mumbling..3 sets?)


~Pinnacle~

[steve0]

4 sets standing military press
drop set on Hammer strength machine
4 sets side lateral
4 sets rear delt
4 sets front raises
4 sets up-right rows
4 seta DB shrugs/2 sets behind the back barbell shrugs

[NYC BIG MIKE]

Each set preceded by warm up and then working warmup:

4 sets standing single arm dumbell press @ 120 pounds (6 reps)
4 sets High Pulls @ 225 pounds (6 reps)
4 sets seated post delt raises @ 100 lbs (6 reps)

[sputnik]

jesus, why so many sets????

I just do overhead barbell presses with an olympic bar, 2x per week, one day doing 6x3 working up to a top weight (heavy day), then 1 back off set, other day 5x5 working to a top set (medium day), then other day of benches (yes they work ur shoulders too) 6x3 to a top set with a back off. Thats it. My shouders are great, well defined and bloody strong. Get to doing overhead presses for reps with AT LEAST your BW, and tell me you dont have great shoulders and can demonstrate strength. And then tell me u have to do a million variations of shoulder movements.

Oh and yeah, push presses are great.

[chest6]

yup..guess i gotta back off the sets a lil bit. I knew bench hit the front delts but I wanted to bring mine out a lil more..I figured this would help. Knew rear delts were hit during back, but same. My rear delts are a weak point. I did upright rows for 4-5 weeks awhile ago but I recently switched back to incline laterals...

[sputnik]

I reckon stick with the rows and leave the laterals. That's just my 2 cents. Stick to more compound movements, unless of course ur polishing up for a contest or somehting.

[NYC BIG MIKE]

Chest6, do you know what an olympic high pull is?

[sputnik]

high pulls are friggin great....however, I only use them for traps not shoulders

[Pinnacle]

yup..guess i gotta back off the sets a lil bit. I knew bench hit the front delts

My anterior delt head is way out of proportion due to incline presses for years straight.I haven't worked my front head in years.You should see my rear double bi pose.My front heads dwarf the other two heads.

I think alot of ppl have lagging rear delt heads.I've been spot injecting mine for ages now.They have come up quite a bit.Not from the hormone itself,but the oil loosening up the fascia allowing more growth.


~Pinnacle~

[NYC BIG MIKE]

Done right, high pulls are designed for shoulder mass and it's tie-in with the upper back

[sputnik]

hmmmmm, olympic lifters dont get the shoulders involved for high pulls, excpet for having the sholders in front of the bar until the pint u get ur thighs involved....its all traps in the second pull. using the shoulders i've always read from olympic coahes sch as Spitz and and athletes, stuffs up the pull...however, if it works for u, cool

[NYC BIG MIKE]

I should have said, done the way it was improvised to help bodybuilders. Olympic lifters do indeed use speed and technique to get under the bar and traps are used. Almost every top name bodybuilder was doing high pulls in the late 70's/early 80's (that's where I fvcked up, I called it "olympic" high pulls) on shoulder days as a staple movement. It's done with alot of weight, a lil bit of a cheat swing and hands are about 12 inches apart on the bar and you literally pull from the shoulders to about forehead level elbows out to the side. It's a great movement adopted from olympic lifting.

[sputnik]

shit it's the first time I hear about that, very interesting. No potential for shoulder injury though?

[chest6]

My anterior delt head is way out of proportion due to incline presses for years straight.I haven't worked my front head in years.You should see my rear double bi pose.My front heads dwarf the other two heads.

I think alot of ppl have lagging rear delt heads.I've been spot injecting mine for ages now.They have come up quite a bit.Not from the hormone itself,but the oil loosening up the fascia allowing more growth.


~Pinnacle~

I was inclining w/ dbs for awhile before I partially tore my pec. That set me back quite a while I was nearing 400 before that happened . Oh well hopefully I'll work back there and start a cycle in a year into the 400s . Im leaning towards barbell pressing for a few weeks before I change some up to db.

[NYC BIG MIKE]

shit it's the first time I hear about that, very interesting. No potential for shoulder injury though?

Look in Arnold Schwarzenneger's body building encyclopedia, he lists it in the shoulder exercises area. As far as it being dangerous, here comes a two sided answer. I have a degree in exercise physiology, so I'd be lying if I said it wasn't dangerous to the acromion process. I had a shoulder injury years ago that made it hard for me to do side laterals (heavy). This injury made it necessary for me to find another big medial delt movement. Front raises didnt' do it either. I have worked out with many pros in my days and the high pull was suggested to me by people who I have major respect for when it comes to bodybuilding knowldedge. So today I may typically do a few sets of uni lateral low cable side laterals for reps to finish off my delts after pounding out heavy high pulls. But I usually only do that when detailing for a show. Glad we cleared that up. Peace.

[Flexor]

Yeah!!!It's great to see someone who understands you aren't suppose to kill your delts.

During DC training my delts only get 3 sets per week(I hear the crowd mumbling..3 sets?)

~Pinnacle~

I'm actually rejoicing...

I actually have trouble with my shoulders doing military presses and I've never done incline. Flat bench (medium or narrow grip) alone has built my anterior delts and this is why. The deltoideus is a multi-pennate muscle, consisting of three synergistic heads with muscle fibres travelling obliquely out from the tendon, at roughly a 45 degree angle to the actual appearance of the muscle. Consequently, the deltoids have a huge cross sectional area and they rely on this for their strength, unlike other muscles such as the biceps which have parallel fibres and rely on the sheer length of contraction for their strength. Therefore because of this pennate configuration in the deltoids, the range of motion if unimportant in stimulating them!! It is all about maintaining high tension across the muscle for a high TUT. Ever noticed how your delts don't seem to shorten much? Its because they are pennate muscles...like the brachialis.

So basically what I'm saying is, military presses are not necessary for deltoid development! Flat bench uses far more weight and gives the front and even side delts a whacking, as does incline bench or even decline bench. The only specific shoulder workout I do is 3 x incline laterals. Chest pressing and back rowing movements have taken care of my front and posterior deltoids automatically! This may not work for some, but if you have good delt genetics probably like pinnacle does, then there really is no need to paste the shoulders.

[TheMudMan]

I've been doing delts after chest..........

3 sets DB press / super set with side laterias
3 sets bent over laterals
6 sets shrugs 3 in front / 3 behind

[chest6]

I'm actually rejoicing...

I actually have trouble with my shoulders doing military presses and I've never done incline. Flat bench (medium or narrow grip) alone has built my anterior delts and this is why. The deltoideus is a multi-pennate muscle, consisting of three synergistic heads with muscle fibres travelling obliquely out from the tendon, at roughly a 45 degree angle to the actual appearance of the muscle. Consequently, the deltoids have a huge cross sectional area and they rely on this for their strength, unlike other muscles such as the biceps which have parallel fibres and rely on the sheer length of contraction for their strength. Therefore because of this pennate configuration in the deltoids, the range of motion if unimportant in stimulating them!! It is all about maintaining high tension across the muscle for a high TUT. Ever noticed how your delts don't seem to shorten much? Its because they are pennate muscles...like the brachialis.

So basically what I'm saying is, military presses are not necessary for deltoid development! Flat bench uses far more weight and gives the front and even side delts a whacking, as does incline bench or even decline bench. The only specific shoulder workout I do is 3 x incline laterals. Chest pressing and back rowing movements have taken care of my front and posterior deltoids automatically! This may not work for some, but if you have good delt genetics probably like pinnacle does, then there really is no need to paste the shoulders.

I actually did not work delts unti last summer, I was very out of proportion. I had a big chest, small arms and small shoulders/traps/back because I never really worked any of them. When I started with the heavy overhead presses, this really helped them out. My front heads weren't far behind because of all the incline and bench I did, like you said, but the overall side delt size was lagging behind quite a bit. I guess I really don't need front/rear raises anymore.

[Pinnacle]

Look at it this way chest6.The less energy you expend on a muscle group,the more you'll have left over for the vital recovery phase(GROWTH).Blast them hard,quick,with minimal sets.And get the hell out of the gym.I can't stress that enough.

~Pinnacle~

[Flexor]

Look at it this way chest6.The less energy you expend on a muscle group,the more you'll have left over for the vital recovery phase(GROWTH).Blast them hard,quick,with minimal sets.And get the hell out of the gym.I can't stress that enough.

~Pinnacle~

Exactly! If you blast the muscle with rest pause and drop sets or just lift plain hard, you destroy the muscle quicker without losing energy and you can go home without feeling like shit. Sometimes I have done as little as 6 or 7 sets for chest and yet the workout was absolutely mind blowing!!!

[sputnik]

Big Mike, I was going to say that side laterals and front raises are potential shoulder wreckers…however u performed in contests so it’s understandable to fine tune your look with isolation movements.

Flexor, I would disagree, overhead pressing is the king of shoulder development and has been since at least the 1930’s. Just have a look at the old timers and their cannon ball shoulders. Isolation movements are useful for example, but only for polishing up the look. You need something like overhead pressing with a combination of benches, push presses one arm dumbbell pressing to build some meat on them shoulders.

[NYC BIG MIKE]

Big Mike, I was going to say that side laterals and front raises are potential shoulder wreckers…however u performed in contests so it’s understandable to fine tune your look with isolation movements.

Flexor, I would disagree, overhead pressing is the king of shoulder development and has been since at least the 1930’s. Just have a look at the old timers and their cannon ball shoulders. Isolation movements are useful for example, but only for polishing up the look. You need something like overhead pressing with a combination of benches, push presses one arm dumbbell pressing to build some meat on them shoulders.

Doing heavy side laterals and numbing the pain with nubain is how I fvcked up my shoulders in the first place. Like I said, one side at a time on the low cables after heavy high pulls and only when contest prepping. I also agree with one arm dumbell presses being a "meat and potato" movement.

[sputnik]

Just keep those shoulders healthy amigo. Yeah, 1 arm presses…hardly anyone does them on their 2 feet anymore…and they require good form….another old school movement not trendy enough for some.

Ever tried the dumbbell clean and press? Another old school one….do these for higher reps…not only will your shoulders take a pounding, but the cardio effect is great….you’ll end up with a puddle pf sweat at your feet…

[NYC BIG MIKE]

I love old school movements. Could be my age, they weren't old school when I started doing them. Me so funny.

[Flexor]

Flexor, I would disagree, overhead pressing is the king of shoulder development and has been since at least the 1930’s. Just have a look at the old timers and their cannon ball shoulders. Isolation movements are useful for example, but only for polishing up the look. You need something like overhead pressing with a combination of benches, push presses one arm dumbbell pressing to build some meat on them shoulders.

If you want to fck up your shoulders then continue to do overhead presses. You are gradually weakening the tendons of your rotator cuff, especially the supraspinatus. You can ask ANY DOCTOR ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD, and they will tell you that repetitive overhead movements will weaken and lengthen your rotator cuff tendons causing joint slackening in later life leading to all kinds of problems.

If you can bench press more than you can military press, you will get bigger delts from benching than from doing military presses. I've already explained the configuration of the deltoid muscle and why the full ROM seen in military presses isn't necessary. If someone says that military presses helped them achieve cannonball delts, its a no brainer because they have also been doing bench presses! How do they know what has helped them if they have been doing numerous exercises? Bench presses ARE the compound movement for the shoulders. The medial deltoid is activated right the way up to 90 degree shoulder flexion in the bench press, unlike in military presses where the anterior deltoid takes over after 90 degrees.

You don't seem to understand that my main point is, compound exercises build bulk. I never said anything about doing only isolation, I simply said military presses are not necessary and are a terrible exercise for joint injuries. Compound exercises are the ONLY way to go, except lateral raises are necessary as there is no other way to use the medial deltoid for what it is ideally meant for, abducting the shoulder to 90 degrees. Laterals are not isolating anyway, the anterior deltoid, traps and supraspinatus are all involved. They may not be a compound exercise, but they aren't isolating either.

[chest6]

Interesting reads..Im liking all the input

[sputnik]

Doing get in a huff Flexor.

I did not misunderstand your point, I know your not talking about isolation movements. But sorry your wrong on overhead pressing. And you know what? I’ve been pressing now for 5 years straight and am doing reps with 180lbs. No shoulder problems at all. I suppose all the Olympic athletes that competed doing the overhead press when it was the third lift all have problem shoulders too? Give me a break. Ok so maybe it’s given you problems, doesn’t mean it’s bad for everyone else.

Oh and btw, most doctors say not to squat cause it’s bad for your back and knees. I guess we should take their advice hey?

[Flexor]

Doing get in a huff Flexor.

I did not misunderstand your point, I know your not talking about isolation movements. But sorry your wrong on overhead pressing. And you know what? I’ve been pressing now for 5 years straight and am doing reps with 180lbs. No shoulder problems at all. I suppose all the Olympic athletes that competed doing the overhead press when it was the third lift all have problem shoulders too? Give me a break. Ok so maybe it’s given you problems, doesn’t mean it’s bad for everyone else.

Oh and btw, most doctors say not to squat cause it’s bad for your back and knees. I guess we should take their advice hey?

No I'm not getting in a huff. How much are you benching compared to 180lbs? Probably around 300 if not more, and that is the point I am making. More weight in a "safer" exercise will stimulate more growth.

Also during overhead pressing movements, the infraspinatus and teres minor external rotators are used to depress and retract the humeral head away from the acromion process so that impingement doesn't occur beneath the subacromial arch. Meanwhile, the supraspinatus is contracting to flex the shoulder. The multi-directional stresses on these different rotator cuff tendons leads to gradual slackening and perhaps even sudden rupture. They are not designed for these type of loads, they only connect small muscles to the bones.

Doctors are right about squats, they are bad for the knees, but by taking precautions a lot of damage can be minimised. In fact, using your body, period, is damaging. If we did nothing, we wouldn't get damaged, but there is a balance between keeping fit and strong and completely destroying ourselves before our internal organs are ready to let go. Squatting below parallel is suicide and will come back to haunt you in old age.

I'm not saying your points aren't valid sputnik, I'm simply disagreeing. I can tell that you know your shit and that you have valuable experience. And of course, everybody is constructed differently. Some people can tolerate upright rows, whilst others cannot. Some people can tolerate dips, while others cannot. I understand what you are saying about certain exercises, its just I believe those exercises lead to problems in the future.

[NYC BIG MIKE]

I've been squatting to rock bottom for over 30 years.

[Flexor]

I'm jumping into bed now, I'm knackered. I'll get back to you tomorrow morning if you post again.

[NYC BIG MIKE]

With over 600 pounds mind you.