going below parallel on squats-how dangerous?

**MMA** · 07-06-2006, 04:04 PM

how dangerous is it to bring your hamstrings below the parallel when squatting? people tell me its dangerous, but i feel like i'm getting a much better workout.

**Superhuman** · 07-06-2006, 06:25 PM

when I do it my knees start to hurt like crazy, but i'm also pretty tall. It's really up to you. When I go heavier I come down ALMOST parallel, but NEVER below parallel - and my legs haven't stopped growing yet. I get new stretchmarks every couple months!

**Papi93** · 07-06-2006, 06:30 PM

Originally Posted by MMA

how dangerous is it to bring your hamstrings below the parallel when squatting? people tell me its dangerous, but i feel like i'm getting a much better workout.

Full ROM Squats are fine, IMO, as long as you do not let your lower back flex, at rock bottom. This is the most common mistake I see people doing when they squat with a full ROM.

**rockhuddy** · 07-06-2006, 07:14 PM

Originally Posted by Papi93

Full ROM Squats are fine, IMO, as long as you do not let your lower back flex, at rock bottom. This is the most common mistake I see people doing when they squat with a full ROM.

^^^^

Actually, full squats are better for the knees than stopping at parallel. The reason is that the supporting ligaments in the knee are unable to provide maximum support when the knee is at a 90 degree angle. This makes parallel the worst possible place to reverse momentum under a load. This isn't to say that regular squats are dangerous; they're not. Rather, it's to say that full squats are even less dangerous. Not to mention the other benefits of full squats, namely increased hamstring and glute activation.

**Animal505** · 07-21-2006, 02:46 PM

Originally Posted by rockhuddy

^^^^

Actually, full squats are better for the knees than stopping at parallel. The reason is that the supporting ligaments in the knee are unable to provide maximum support when the knee is at a 90 degree angle. This makes parallel the worst possible place to reverse momentum under a load. This isn't to say that regular squats are dangerous; they're not. Rather, it's to say that full squats are even less dangerous. Not to mention the other benefits of full squats, namely increased hamstring and glute activation.

Did you here that from someone or did you read it somewhere? Ive always wonderd if this was true, do you have any studys or anything to back that up. I just want to belive fact and not heresay.

**Papi93** · 07-21-2006, 06:37 PM

Originally Posted by Animal505

Did you here that from someone or did you read it somewhere? Ive always wonderd if this was true, do you have any studys or anything to back that up. I just want to belive fact and not heresay.

I have a thread posted at body building . com and it has studies showing that it is safe to go through a full ROM if you have healthy knees.

Rockhuddy is a buddy of mine from that site so he has seen the studies as well. Go to their site and look for Papi93's threads and you will find it. Work blocks this site so I go to the site, during the day. At night I come here.

**rjlariv** · 07-22-2006, 08:10 AM

Originally Posted by Papi93

I have a thread posted at body building . com and it has studies showing that it is safe to go through a full ROM if you have healthy knees.

Rockhuddy is a buddy of mine from that site so he has seen the studies as well. Go to their site and look for Papi93's threads and you will find it. Work blocks this site so I go to the site, during the day. At night I come here.

My work blocks this site also and I am the Network Administrator at my work. I use megaproxy.com to go to this site during the day anyways. also, depending on what kind of firewall you have you can simply go to google.com and type:
forums.anabolicreview.com
It should take you to the link then you can still view this site and post during the day. Just trying to help out bro. i know i have alot of downtime at work and this is the best time for me to research. try it and see what you can do.

**stayinstacked** · 07-22-2006, 08:13 AM

I used to for several years, but it's really not necessary. It puts too much stress on your knees and incorporates too much glute work rather than quads.

**rjlariv** · 07-22-2006, 08:13 AM

I just realized i didnt even help out this post which is why i was viewing this post in the first place. I always use full ROM squats when doing heavy weight and warm up with parallel squats. everyones joints are different but this works well for me. also, if you are looking for a quick fix then try using MSM. you can get it in pill form from GNC or bb.com and after using it for a month i was able to work out alot heavier with squats, skull crushers and basically every other exercise that normally would put alot of stress on elbows and knees.

**Superhuman** · 07-22-2006, 08:23 AM

i'm tall, so for me it's very hard to do full ROM on many exercises, uncluding squats

**rjlariv** · 07-22-2006, 08:24 AM

also, with full ROM squats you will should feel a better reverse momentum if all of your other techniques are in check. (ie... breathing, bone allignment, muscular stability etc.) It shouldnt be a problem.

**Duck of Death** · 07-22-2006, 08:41 AM

.......My good buddy, who is an orthopedic surgeon, says that going below parallel subjects the knee joint to shear stresses (that is, the opposing bone surface tending to slide against each other) as opposed to compressive forces (tending to push the opposing surfaces towards each other). The same thing applies to leg extensions, which he says should never be done very heavy but are OK to do with high reps and lighter weight.
That being said, the healthy body can tolerate many adverse stresses as long as the joint itself is in good shape. I have had some cartilage removed from my right knee due to a meniscus tear years ago (nothing to do with weight lifting, I might add). I am fine as long as I just go to parallel. When I go past that, I REALLY feel the knee talking to me and it is very sore for days after.

**GREENMACHINE** · 07-22-2006, 08:45 AM

I always go below parallel always will.

**Superhuman** · 07-22-2006, 08:57 AM

Originally Posted by Duck of Death

.......My good buddy, who is an orthopedic surgeon, says that going below parallel subjects the knee joint to shear stresses (that is, the opposing bone surface tending to slide against each other) as opposed to compressive forces (tending to push the opposing surfaces towards each other). The same thing applies to leg extensions, which he says should never be done very heavy but are OK to do with high reps and lighter weight.
That being said, the healthy body can tolerate many adverse stresses as long as the joint itself is in good shape. I have had some cartilage removed from my right knee due to a meniscus tear years ago (nothing to do with weight lifting, I might add). I am fine as long as I just go to parallel. When I go past that, I REALLY feel the knee talking to me and it is very sore for days after.

it's similar for me - if I go below parallel it feels good at first and everything is great, but after I finish a set like that my knees will be in excrutiating pain.

**Papi93** · 07-22-2006, 10:36 AM

Originally Posted by rjlariv

My work blocks this site also and I am the Network Administrator at my work. I use megaproxy.com to go to this site during the day anyways. also, depending on what kind of firewall you have you can simply go to google.com and type:
forums.anabolicreview.com
It should take you to the link then you can still view this site and post during the day. Just trying to help out bro. i know i have alot of downtime at work and this is the best time for me to research. try it and see what you can do.

Thanks. I will give it a try on Monday.

**rockhuddy** · 07-24-2006, 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by Papi93

I have a thread posted at body building . com and it has studies showing that it is safe to go through a full ROM if you have healthy knees.

Rockhuddy is a buddy of mine from that site so he has seen the studies as well. Go to their site and look for Papi93's threads and you will find it. Work blocks this site so I go to the site, during the day. At night I come here.

Thanks.

Yes, I have seen studies posted. The ligaments of the knee are slack at parallel, thus they provide very little support. This is also why so many people have knee issues with leg extensions; the exercise starts with the knee at a 90 degree angle, the worst place to start a movement under a load. Hello, joint shearing.

**Lencho** · 07-24-2006, 01:18 PM

Originally Posted by Superhuman

i'm tall, so for me it's very hard to do full ROM on many exercises, uncluding squats

Could this be more of a flexibility issue? I'm 6'4", and when I first started doing full squats, I found them uncomfortable as well. But I stuck with them and feel that they have been beneficial.

What other exercises do you have trouble doing full ROM due to height?

**crash187ct** · 07-24-2006, 09:15 PM

Originally Posted by MMA

how dangerous is it to bring your hamstrings below the parallel when squatting? people tell me its dangerous, but i feel like i'm getting a much better workout.

lets put it this way, i used to do them "below parallel" because my football coach in highschool said they would help tremedously. and now(years later), i have patellar tendinitous so bad, i can barely walk. so take it as you will.....but if you love your knees, you won't even touch them.

**Papi93** · 07-25-2006, 06:20 PM

Originally Posted by crash187ct

lets put it this way, i used to do them "below parallel" because my football coach in highschool said they would help tremedously. and now(years later), i have patellar tendinitous so bad, i can barely walk. so take it as you will.....but if you love your knees, you won't even touch them.

Was your form good? Most high schoolers form is not the best.

**Superhuman** · 07-25-2006, 07:08 PM

Originally Posted by Lencho

Could this be more of a flexibility issue? I'm 6'4", and when I first started doing full squats, I found them uncomfortable as well. But I stuck with them and feel that they have been beneficial.

What other exercises do you have trouble doing full ROM due to height?

it's definitely not flexibility (i can easily touch my toes). I get this weird bruising under my knee where my bone hurts to the touch. It's hard to explain.

As for other exercises I guess just behind-the-neck lat pulls or shoulder presses, but i've heard that those are not good for anyone to do.

**Superhuman** · 07-25-2006, 07:11 PM

Originally Posted by Papi93

Was your form good? Most high schoolers form is not the best.

going below parallel is not good for your knees - i'm sure some guys think it's better but it's not. If you really need that extra stretching get on a leg press where it's safer and you can go nice and slow with it. Somebody give me 1 legitimate reason why going below parallel is beneficial.

**rockhuddy** · 07-25-2006, 07:28 PM

Originally Posted by Superhuman

going below parallel is not good for your knees - i'm sure some guys think it's better but it's not. If you really need that extra stretching get on a leg press where it's safer and you can go nice and slow with it. Somebody give me 1 legitimate reason why going below parallel is beneficial.

Here's 2: Greater stretch in the quads = more microtrauma, and greater hamstring/glute involvement. Besides that it's safer for reasons I've mentioned above. And going very low on leg presses usually means that your lower back comes off of the pad, leading to lower back injuries, so that's not really a safer alternative.

Edit: If you have anything besides anecdotal evidence to show why stopping at parallel is safer than going ATG, I'd love to hear it. A scientific study or physiological reasoning would be acceptable, not just a hollow blanket statement.

**Superhuman** · 07-25-2006, 09:40 PM

Originally Posted by rockhuddy

Here's 2: Greater stretch in the quads = more microtrauma, and greater hamstring/glute involvement. Besides that it's safer for reasons I've mentioned above. And going very low on leg presses usually means that your lower back comes off of the pad, leading to lower back injuries, so that's not really a safer alternative.

Edit: If you have anything besides anecdotal evidence to show why stopping at parallel is safer than going ATG, I'd love to hear it. A scientific study or physiological reasoning would be acceptable, not just a hollow blanket statement.

Why would my lower back come off of the bad?

If you have bad form on a leg press to where you hurt your lower back - you sure as hell shouldn't be doing deep squats because God only knows what would happen.

If stretching your quad is a big deal for you the spend 15min stretching before and after your workout. Stretching is stretching, adding heavy weight to the equation just increases risk of injury.

For more glute activation - like i said leg press is great and lunges are way under-rated.

**rockhuddy** · 07-25-2006, 11:13 PM

Originally Posted by Superhuman

Why would my lower back come off of the bad?

If you have bad form on a leg press to where you hurt your lower back - you sure as hell shouldn't be doing deep squats because God only knows what would happen.

It wouldn't necessarily, but with many people it often does. If you try to go very deep, your lower back tends to round as you go deeper and deeper. You can see what I'm talking about if you lay down on the floor and bring your knees toward your chin. Does your lower back come off of the floor? Same thing often happens with leg presses.

Originally Posted by Superhuman

If stretching your quad is a big deal for you the spend 15min stretching before and after your workout. Stretching is stretching, adding heavy weight to the equation just increases risk of injury.

For more glute activation - like i said leg press is great and lunges are way under-rated.

Stretch under tension causes greater microtrauma in the muscle. Are you suggesting that I can use 1/2 ROM on bench press and still get full development as long as I stretch my pecs? Greater ROM = greater development.

As for posterior chain activation, I actually consider squats a PC dominant exercise. Too many try to make it quad dominant, and then justify it by adding something like lunges. Lunges and leg presses are fine, don't get me wrong, but most trainers end up doing pathetically little for their posterior chains. Good mornings, GHRs, RDLs, etc. should all be training staples, and prioritized in leg workouts, and then the quads should be hit with front and hack squats. Regardless, why try to limit glute involvement? The glutes are key to moving big weight, and the more you squat the more you'll grow.

**Superhuman** · 07-25-2006, 11:28 PM

i see what you are saying - but i tend to stretch more in other exercises that are more easily controllable and where I don't need a spot, such as leg press or lunges for legs, and since you mentioned chest I stretch the sh*t out of my chest when I use dumbells but not on barbell presses.

For my leg workouts I always squat, deadlift, leg press, leg extension, leg curl, calf extensions, and calf raises. I may add something or substitute an exercise but not often. I change the # of reps/sets and poundage to keep my body guessing. I think I'm doing pretty well, but I'll try full ROM squats for a couple weeks and see if there is a positive difference. It always feels better (and actually makes it easier) when I go below parallel, but my knees ALWAYS hurt afterwards.

**rockhuddy** · 07-25-2006, 11:47 PM

Originally Posted by Superhuman

i see what you are saying - but i tend to stretch more in other exercises that are more easily controllable and where I don't need a spot, such as leg press or lunges for legs, and since you mentioned chest I stretch the sh*t out of my chest when I use dumbells but not on barbell presses.

For my leg workouts I always squat, deadlift, leg press, leg extension, leg curl, calf extensions, and calf raises. I may add something or substitute an exercise but not often. I change the # of reps/sets and poundage to keep my body guessing. I think I'm doing pretty well, but I'll try full ROM squats for a couple weeks and see if there is a positive difference. It always feels better (and actually makes it easier) when I go below parallel, but my knees ALWAYS hurt afterwards.

Yeah, of course things will be different for everyone, but overall most people will respond better to ATG squats. I think they're easier than stopping at parallel too, actually. And if your knees hurt, there may be other factors involved. For example, do your knees drift very far forward? If they do, that can increase stress on the patellar tendon. Also, if your toes point in a different direction than your knees, that can cause problems too. But if the knees and toes are in line and you're sitting back enough, most people should have no trouble with full squats. Hope the experiment goes well.

**crash187ct** · 07-26-2006, 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by Papi93

Was your form good? Most high schoolers form is not the best.

form was good, the range of motion was too extreme. he had us probably 4 inches from the ground. and no thats not an exaggeration.

**getpumped24** · 07-26-2006, 11:06 AM

if you are 6'+, it is rough on the back going below parallel. i'm 6'1" and just go parallel, maybe a bit lower. i've seen guys almost sit their a*s on the ground and don't have problems. everybody is different, go as deep as you can w/o causing knee or back pain.

**rockhuddy** · 07-26-2006, 01:25 PM

Originally Posted by getpumped24

if you are 6'+, it is rough on the back going below parallel. i'm 6'1" and just go parallel, maybe a bit lower. i've seen guys almost sit their a*s on the ground and don't have problems. everybody is different, go as deep as you can w/o causing knee or back pain.

I'm 6'1", and I have no problems with it. Going as deep as you can without pain is a good overall guideline.

**Papi93** · 07-26-2006, 05:10 PM

Originally Posted by rockhuddy

Here's 2: Greater stretch in the quads = more microtrauma, and greater hamstring/glute involvement. Besides that it's safer for reasons I've mentioned above. And going very low on leg presses usually means that your lower back comes off of the pad, leading to lower back injuries, so that's not really a safer alternative.

Edit: If you have anything besides anecdotal evidence to show why stopping at parallel is safer than going ATG, I'd love to hear it. A scientific study or physiological reasoning would be acceptable, not just a hollow blanket statement.

Well said Rock. I would rep you but the system doesn't work here

. Good to see you back on, again.

**MMA** · 07-29-2006, 07:51 AM

thanks for the help guys. due to some other injuries right now, i'm actually substituting leg press for squats/deadlifts (yeah, i feel like a complete wuss now, but i really feel i'm getting a lot out of it). any more advice specific to leg presses?

**Papi93** · 07-29-2006, 09:34 AM

Originally Posted by MMA

thanks for the help guys. due to some other injuries right now, i'm actually substituting leg press for squats/deadlifts (yeah, i feel like a complete wuss now, but i really feel i'm getting a lot out of it). any more advice specific to leg presses?

Watch out to make sure that your hips due not rise, at the bottom of the ROM. The lower back will look like it is flexing. When people deadlift or squat with a flexed lower back, the next day they usually have a great deal of discomfort their. You can injure your lower back on the leg press if you technique is bad. Be safe and good luck!

**simm** · 07-29-2006, 10:08 AM

Look at olympic weightlifters and they even have a bounce effect when they drop into rock bottom squats,always below parallel..I am 6'5 and find less stress on my knees than when doing parallel squats,yet i can squat more weight rock bottom than parallel..Who cares if you get a bigger ass so long as you get stronger..That is where your power comes from..

**steve0** · 07-30-2006, 10:26 AM

i use to go below parallel but not anymore its bogus you'll reck your knees man just keep it parallel.

**Superhuman** · 07-30-2006, 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by simm

Look at olympic weightlifters and they even have a bounce effect when they drop into rock bottom squats,always below parallel..I am 6'5 and find less stress on my knees than when doing parallel squats,yet i can squat more weight rock bottom than parallel..Who cares if you get a bigger ass so long as you get stronger..That is where your power comes from..

yeah and look @ how many of them have to get their hips replaced or end up having to walk with a cane for the rest of their lives

**guest589745** · 07-30-2006, 06:04 PM

I do below parralel only on my last set of squats to really burn em up and plus, its lighter weight so I think my risk of injury is much less at that point.

**Squatman51** · 08-04-2006, 05:23 AM

i think below parallel squats are okay but i dont think there is a need to go ass to ground...

damn nark you look like you gained 40lbs in a few days..

**powerliftmike** · 08-08-2006, 08:30 PM

Originally Posted by MMA

thanks for the help guys. due to some other injuries right now, i'm actually substituting leg press for squats/deadlifts (yeah, i feel like a complete wuss now, but i really feel i'm getting a lot out of it). any more advice specific to leg presses?

yea, the leg press was invented to keep sisses out of the racks.

what really helps is switching up the squat movement: front, back, 1/2, 1/4, box, zurcher, bands, chains, suit/no suit, etc

**soulstealer** · 03-22-2007, 06:29 AM

I dunno guys I've gone ATG all my life and still do Them I'm 74.5 inches tall Feels great at the bottom... I always do slow negs... and pause at the bottom for a moment..... I use the strictest for so as to not incorporate my back into the movement.... and my legs feel great..... I just make sure my knee follow my toe tract and every movement is controlled....