HIT Training - Back/Traps/Bis

[IBdmfkr]

Workout 2 (sequal to chest/shoulder/tri routine).

Same principals and techniques apply as last routine posted.
http://forums.anabolicreview.com/sho...d.php?t=266190

BACK:
DeadLifts: First warm-up with a weight light enough to do 20reps but also enough to apply some pressure to the muscle you're about to stress.
1 Work set with your maximum weight for 6-10 reps from the floor.
FORM IS EVERYTHING.
Ex: I warmup with 225 x 10reps
Workset was with 405 x 10reps

Straight arm cable pulldowns -
Preexhaust with 1 set 6-10reps to failure.

No rest and straight to Widegrip Pulldowns -
Postive/negative/static
1st set - positive failure 6-10reps, use a spot with forced reps

1min rest
2nd set -increase weight - negative failure for 6-10 reps until you can no longer do another rep!

1min rest
Static hold - increase weight - 1rep and hold at contraction (spot should help you get weight in position) hold for up to 12 seconds if you can hold for more then up the weight.

Over to Seated Rows:
2 work sets to failure with strict form and a 3second negative.

TRAPS:
DB Shrugs -
Warmup
2sets to failure 6-10reps HEAVY with proper form and a 2second contraction at the top.

Behind the back Shrugs - 2sets 6-10reps.

BICEPS:
BB curls: 2sets to failure Heavy weight proper form no arching or bouncing.
Spider curls - Positive/Neg/Static
Post - 6-10reps one arm at a time, make it hurt.
Negative - 6-10 keep your spotter close and go until utter failure, arm should feel like it's going to explode
Static - hold until your face turns blue and a slow negative.

Done, now go eat and rest.

Legs coming soon..

[AnabolicAndre]

I was waiting for this Im going to the gym in like an hour!!!!

Ill post some results afterwards I cant wait!!!


Thanks I B D

[l2elapse]

should i perform deadlifts on back or leg day?

[Dilanger]

This is great info, keep it coming.

[IBdmfkr]

should i perform deadlifts on back or leg day?

Well, deadlifts are a back exercise.. Straight leg dead lifts are more of a ham/glute exercise.. so take your pick.

This is one variation of my back routine.. I have pages of them, this is just one I came up with recently that I'm using, in 8wks everything will change.. not to mention I alternate different routines weeks 1+3, 2+4 during the month.

[AnabolicAndre]

Wow, I read this and went to the gym after I copied it into my notbook.

On the treadmill during my 10 mins warmup I re-read it and was like hmmm this doesnt seem like enough volume...

This was of the most intense workouts I've had in a very long time.

The only thing I didnt quite get was the "spider curls" so I subbed preacher curls.

[IBdmfkr]

LMAO!! Yes it is VERY deceiving isn't it?

If you do it with the right intensity (and it sounds like you did) then it is by far a great change from the regular routine, now log your lifts and do it again next week and try to progress in reps and/or weight with each lift. Do this for 8wks then take 1-2wks off totally and come back with a completely different routine.. PM me at that time if you need a new one

Spider curls:
Go to the other side of the Preacher curl bench and let your arm hang vertically down towards the floor and do a concentrated curl, you could also do concentration curls bent over sitting on a bench, they work well too.

[*Narkissos*]

I B D.. you feel 'warm' enough after one set of deadlifts to go to max weight?

I've found when i do that i get a 'twinge' in certain muscle groups: back; bis; hips etc... which indicates not being 'warm' enough.

Not hi-jacking your thread intentionally by the way.. It's just that i got a mild lower back strain attempting to deadlift in this way. Honesly i haven't deadlifted in about 2 months (would have to check my training journal for the exact date)... This is to say i prefer to pyramid deads and squats due to the numerous muscle complexes they encompasse/incorporate.

Nark

[*Narkissos*]

e.g. The heaviest i've gone is 545 lbs for 3 reps.

Going by your 6-10 max suggestion.. That'd put me around 500/515 lbs for that specific rep range (Last strength-maintenance phase i worked with 500 for 5-6.. as it was not 'taxing'.. 515 would be a heavy/maintenance effort)

I've found 'warming up' heavier than 135 lbs doesn't 'feel right'. I think the point of 'warming up'.. is to 'get warm'.

As your first exercise... i don't see how you can accomplish that with one warm-up set.. unless you were doing anxillary warm-up work (1-2 set leg-curls; 1-2 set adductor work)..and you didn't mention such.

As someone who's damaged one of my hams and adductor muscles.. i say that it's an injury waiting to happen.. Just imo

Discuss
Nark

[IBdmfkr]

I normally will do a couple warm-up sets, first being 135 just to get things flowing.. then I'll come back with 225-275 and do a set of 10-12.. Each individual will be different, for me and the people I train with 1-2warmup sets is plentyas you want an all out effort for 1set. If I "warmup" too much then it'll affect my 1working set, I've done it both ways and feel 1-2sets works fine. Keep in mind these warm-ups are done much slower than normal sets to really stretch and place strain on the muscles you're about to use, so don't rush through them and really concentrate on which muscles will be worked, this goes with every warmup, not just deadlifts.

I just did my leg routine today in the same fashion but I started with hams first instead of quads last week. Great workout.

[AnabolicAndre]

Hey IB D what does your split look like?

like:

Day 1: Back/Bi/Traps
Day 2: cardio/off
Day 3: Legs
Day 4: Chest/Delts/Tri
Day 5: cardio/off
Day 6: Back/Bi/Tri
Day 7: Off

What do you think of something like that?

[IBdmfkr]

I do 1on2off, but a Mon/wed/fri split works well to with HIT training, I don't include cardio on the offseason while doing HIT as I'm experimenting with the idea that cardio may affect your recovery when training in this fashion. Mentzer's theory on this was that your body is like anything else on this earth and follows the same principles. It has an energy reserve which is depleted from lifting/cardio/etc, so if you're trying to get maximum recovery then you don't want to dip into your reserves by doing cardio inbetween lifting days. A bit more complicated then that, but that's a brief explanation (not sure how clear that was lol).
Mon: chest/shoulders/tris
wed: back/traps/bis
fri: legs/calves

[*Narkissos*]

If I "warmup" too much then it'll affect my 1working set,

I understand what you're saying..and i have modified my 'warm-up' process (rather my rep-range) to accomodate this.

The warm-up should not be taxing.. but should facilitate max effort on the working set.

Reviewing power-lifters' regimes in modifying my own.. i realise that some follow the same rep-range from set to set... The warm-ups are not taxing as the rep-range is relatively low..

e.g. when i deadlift i have a goal weight in mind for my max effort set.. and goals number of reps.

My 'warm-up' is as follows:

Goal weight: 500 lbs.. failure

warm-up: bar x 6; 135 x 6; 225 x 6; 315 x 6... 500 lbs.. max effort.

The warm-ups are slow..controlled..and there's ham/adductor stretching between each.

Blood flow and the neuromuscular connection is established without affecting the max effort set's reps.

Being literal... to affect the max effort set's reps i would have to be taxed by the preceding sets...

For this i'd have to bump my reps significantly: e.g. 135 x 30; 225 x 20; 315 x 15.. etc. As these numbers v.s the poundages are near the max rep threshold per range.

You see where i'm going with this?

[IBdmfkr]

I do and I agree this method may work well for some but I've found it to be unnecessary.. I find what you're suggesting to work well for someone who needs that extra confidence and/or motivation, as picking up a very light weight like 225 in my case and then going directly to 400-500lbs could be overwelming mentally, so choosing a weight like 315 will reset the mind and body to handle the heavier weight.
I believe the muscles are stretched and ready for the lift if a warm-up is done in the fashion I stated, I've had various clients (athletes/older men/young women/older obese women etc) use this method with the same results..

But yes I see where you're going with it, those are just my thoughts
Glad you brought it up though. Best to try both ways and see what fits you.

[*Narkissos*]

You got email by the way buddy.

[Columbus]

Ive read Mentzers HIIT principles many times and am currently now on his second book....in the first, when he discusses training with Dorian it appears as though his back and trapexercises were machines only....except for barbell rows. He would do two sets of machine pullovers and go immidiately to the str8 bar row for 6-8....then he was DONE. Then traps with the shrug machine x 2 and one set of uprights...DONE. Then it was bis, with a machine curl and then str8 bar 6-8 DONE....how long are your workouts taking....appears we are looking at 30-45 mins MAX effort. Although some of his thoughts and theories sound interesting, he built the base of his foundation doing what we has bbers typically do...the 15-20sets,etc. So I dont think this routine is for the beginners.....I wish he would have used it from the beginning...

[JohnboyF]

Great post I**!!

[*Narkissos*]

Ive read Mentzers HIIT principles many times and am currently now on his second book....in the first, when he discusses training with Dorian it appears as though his back and trapexercises were machines only....except for barbell rows. He would do two sets of machine pullovers and go immidiately to the str8 bar row for 6-8....then he was DONE. Then traps with the shrug machine x 2 and one set of uprights...DONE. Then it was bis, with a machine curl and then str8 bar 6-8 DONE....how long are your workouts taking....appears we are looking at 30-45 mins MAX effort. Although some of his thoughts and theories sound interesting, he built the base of his foundation doing what we has bbers typically do...the 15-20sets,etc. So I dont think this routine is for the beginners.....I wish he would have used it from the beginning...

Ditto..would've been interesting to see.

[Columbus]

The more I read on him (trust me there is much more than any of us will ever know) and the more I speak with people about it, most claim that it was due to his previous training techniques and his incredibly high use of AAS which allowed him to make the gains that he did. They also claim he mentally unstable when he preached these theories.........also leading some to believe that he in fact made no gains or minimal while training this way and just fine tuned his physique.....

[IBdmfkr]

So I dont think this routine is for the beginners.....I wish he would have used it from the beginning...

This I will disagree with as I have 5 of my clients on HIT training similar to Mentzer's theories..
You have to take many different ideas and combine them into your own style, obviously you won't agree with one person solely to mold your work after, so you have to take bits and pieces from different people such as Mentzer.

All 5 of these people (4 which are women who haven't every trained before, age ranging from 22 - 48) are making continuous progress week to week only training twice/wk.. Monday + Thursday.
Only compound movements are used, three different exercises which 2sets each not including warm-up sets.

These results speak for themselves.

Until you try something, don't judge it. After you've tried it and used the methods on others as to compare the results and differences, then you have much more credibility rather than just making blank statements about certain theories. Try it and see, many people are too afraid to try HIT training as they don't want to take "precious" time away from there program they're already on, in which they are making pitifully slow progress anyway.
No one says one is better than another, but rather the time/energy utilized in the gym is much more efficient.

[Columbus]

All I am saying was that Mike was a tad looney.....and I would love to see him use this from Day #1, tis all....not drawing a conclusion yet, although leaning heavily on the negative side.

Also, nothing Ive read talks about his nutirition.....any idea?

[IBdmfkr]

Did you know Mike personally or are you going off of what other critics say about him and his theories?

His nutrional theories leaned towards an extremely low protein diet and the bulk of his calories were from Carbs.

You've yet to try any of these things Mentzer touches on yet you have an opinion on them..
Do a bit of trial and error then come back in my thread and discuss. Until then, I'd say don't bash something you know little about.. no disrespect intended but really you have no crediability on the subject you're disagreeing with.

[2bshredded]

IB,
I'm currently using your chest routine(slightyly modified), the change was very welcome and am seeing some gains.
I'll be looking to try this as well, you get stuck in a pryamid of exercises and routines....this is just a lot different from what I've be doing.

Thanks

[IBdmfkr]

Keep us posted and keep a log.. I can't stress this enough. This will make or break ANY routine.

[Columbus]

This I will disagree with as I have 5 of my clients on HIT training similar to Mentzer's theories..
You have to take many different ideas and combine them into your own style, obviously you won't agree with one person solely to mold your work after, so you have to take bits and pieces from different people such as Mentzer.

All 5 of these people (4 which are women who haven't every trained before, age ranging from 22 - 48) are making continuous progress week to week only training twice/wk.. Monday + Thursday.
Only compound movements are used, three different exercises which 2sets each not including warm-up sets.

These results speak for themselves.

Until you try something, don't judge it. After you've tried it and used the methods on others as to compare the results and differences, then you have much more credibility rather than just making blank statements about certain theories. Try it and see, many people are too afraid to try HIT training as they don't want to take "precious" time away from there program they're already on, in which they are making pitifully slow progress anyway.
No one says one is better than another, but rather the time/energy utilized in the gym is much more efficient.

the important thing is what kind of gear are your clients on?

also, if they are newbies, then i wouldn't bother much.

to be honest, i don't doubt mentzer's HIT wouldn't pack on some amount of mass on someone who is eating a caloric surplus. the problem i have with it would be that it takes away the focus of bodybuilding from training and puts it on diet. in the old days, eating and rest was a given... so much so that i'm guessing that if someone said "you gotta eat big", that would be like stating something so obvious, it didn't even merit a big mention. importance would probably have been given more to training in order to have the best possible symmetry and muscle density. now i really doubt you'd NEED to follow MM HIT to gain some mass while eating. you could just go in to the gym, with just a plan to do x sets for each body part. then you eat whatever's in your refrigerator and hope for the best. you're bound to get stronger over a period of time and hence grow (because of the caloric surplus). throw in some drugs and you grow some more. is it the most efficient way (symmetry & muscle density)? i doubt it.

[IBdmfkr]

None of the women trained are on anabolics and yes I write their diets.
The point is they are training twice/wk and making excellent results with a little over an hour each week lifting.

Nobody is claiming one is better than the other but rather the efficiency of the program compared to everyday life and the fact that overtraining is often overlooked.

You bring up points about ppl eating well etc back in the day, but we are talking about right now with real people in todays society. Two clients are currently on anabolics and one bodybuilds. The other is 6'4" 280lbs around 15% BF, he owns a company and works 60hrs/wk minimum, so this training program is ideal for him.
The other guy that is doing a show with me next year goes to school full-time and works part-time and we train together 2-3times/wk and we're both making strength and size increases with minimal bodyfat gained.

I'm speaking of real-life people and experiences, not what I've read in a book and I agree or disagree with. I put my ideas and theories to work and test them on various people before I post them on a board for thousands to see. So whether you want to agree with it or not doesn't take away from the fact that half a dozen people who are under my constant supervision are all making considerable progress.
Once again I don't follow all of Mentzer's practices, but rather use his theories to build my own routines and ideas which I then apply.

Btw, this quote made me laugh.

"now i really doubt you'd NEED to follow MM HIT to gain some mass while eating. you could just go in to the gym, with just a plan to do x sets for each body part"

Do you really think training intensity isn't important and there isn't a fine line between working the muscle to failure and overtraining? You gotta be kidding me.

Oh if it were just that easy then nobody would be here asking questions and trying new training routines/diet plans/drugs etc..

[Columbus]

i'm not sure what you understood from my post - i don't think i made my point too clearly so here goes.

the point i was trying to make was that you could beat the crap out of your muscles every time you go into the gym - whether it's supersets, drop sets, to failure, slow negatives, whatever. so you go in with only a plan to do x sets per body part. so week 1 you may bench 200x10 as your max set and do some assortment of other exercises. you come in on monday, week 2 and say you're feeling good so you manage 220x8. now week 3, you don't feel too good and you can only manage a max set of 180x10. and it continues like this for all exercises and each week. basically i'm highlighting a method where there's no plan for progression over time, just a plan to beat the crap out of the muscles each time you work out. that's what 99% of bodybuilding wannabes will be doing. then there's an option like MM's HIT, which correct me if i'm wrong, does not focus much (if at all) on actually getting strong enough - not in a neural range of 1-3 reps, nor in a hypertrophy range of 8-12 reps and not even in the intermediate range (strength + hypertrophy) of 5-8. but using both these methods, you could eat like crazy and become bigger.

what i'm asking is whether throwing progression in a given rep range out of the window a good idea? i don't think so, whether you're a bodybuilder or not. yes biggt trains primarily for strength... but that's not the point. what he's done is to choose his focus rep range which happens to be for strength. so he gets stronger in that range while doing enough of higher rep stuff for hypertrophy, because hypertrophy will also improve his strength. he could just as easily choose to do it the other way around with a greater focus on improving lifts in the higher rep ranges and do enough to stay strong in the lower rep ranges too.

if a change is what you want and you don't want to get on a 5x5, why not try the shadows old school method. or maybe even the WSB for bodybuilders.



Interested in the leg routine.........................

[IBdmfkr]

i'm not sure what you understood from my post - i don't think i made my point too clearly so here goes.

the point i was trying to make was that you could beat the crap out of your muscles every time you go into the gym - whether it's supersets, drop sets, to failure, slow negatives, whatever. so you go in with only a plan to do x sets per body part. so week 1 you may bench 200x10 as your max set and do some assortment of other exercises. you come in on monday, week 2 and say you're feeling good so you manage 220x8. now week 3, you don't feel too good and you can only manage a max set of 180x10. and it continues like this for all exercises and each week. basically i'm highlighting a method where there's no plan for progression over time, just a plan to beat the crap out of the muscles each time you work out. that's what 99% of bodybuilding wannabes will be doing. then there's an option like MM's HIT, which correct me if i'm wrong, does not focus much (if at all) on actually getting strong enough - not in a neural range of 1-3 reps, nor in a hypertrophy range of 8-12 reps and not even in the intermediate range (strength + hypertrophy) of 5-8. but using both these methods, you could eat like crazy and become bigger.
Have you read his book? Also when did this rep range become what defines strength and hypertrophy of a muscle?
Also I'm not saying you can't grow any other way, Look at me for example.. I never trained HIT until 9months ago and I built an O.K. base to work with.. I'm saying using a progressive overload High-Intensity program with adequate rest could possibly get you to point A faster than say another program that wasn't of such Intensity.

what i'm asking is whether throwing progression in a given rep range out of the window a good idea? i don't think so, whether you're a bodybuilder or not. yes biggt trains primarily for strength... but that's not the point. what he's done is to choose his focus rep range which happens to be for strength. so he gets stronger in that range while doing enough of higher rep stuff for hypertrophy, because hypertrophy will also improve his strength. he could just as easily choose to do it the other way around with a greater focus on improving lifts in the higher rep ranges and do enough to stay strong in the lower rep ranges too.
I think one must find what works for them bro, every human being is different and born with a different amount of muscle fibers so they will respond differently to different training techniques.. I'm merely giving people a idea of how "I" train, not asking or telling them to train this way. I'd love to see you take the time to post your routine and explain it thouroughly because I like to see different ways of doing things that I've yet to try.
Btw, If you follow John Little's work he is all about using Max Contraction training in which you actually do ONE all out high intensity REP. This is for muscle growth not just strength, how do you explain this from what you've just posted?
if a change is what you want and you don't want to get on a 5x5, why not try the shadows old school method. or maybe even the WSB for bodybuilders.
Because I've found something that works for me, why not try this method and see how it works for you before you dismiss it.
Btw, Last year at this time I was appox 195 with 12% BF give or take. Currently I'm sitting at 221 in the AM at 8-10% BF. I have pictures and logs to prove this.. so tell me, what other program do you think would give a bodybuilder such results as this? None that I'm willing to try until this method stops working for me. Over 20lbs of LBM within 12-14months has more than convinced me of this.

Interested in the leg routine.........................

Good discussion.. Give it a shot when you have 3months to take away from your regular routine and you just might be quite suprised at the results.

1st two pics from middle of 2005, 2nd two pics current.

[Columbus]

For sure....thanks bro....can we see the leg day? This is what I was thinking about:

barx10
135x5
175x5
225x5
265x5
315x3
355x3
395x1
405x1
425x1
445x1

EDIT: forgot the backoff set - 315x8

then it's on to NS crunches, 5x5 with a 20lb plate behind my head

[IBdmfkr]

Diff of legs from mid 05 to current.

[Columbus]

I'll try it today if you post....

[IBdmfkr]

See if I have time.. It's hard to explain the intensity and rest intervals typing it out, btw it's not a mentzer program, all the above were written by me but I just applied different ideas that I've found to work.

Btw, trying one of my routines for 1 day isn't going to do jack. This is something that must be done for 6-8wks at a time and keep a workable log to notice any improvements. Not sure what anyone would get out of doing it for 1 day as it'd be a waste of time.

[Columbus]

See if I have time.. It's hard to explain the intensity and rest intervals typing it out, btw it's not a mentzer program, all the above were written by me but I just applied different ideas that I've found to work.

Btw, trying one of my routines for 1 day isn't going to do jack. This is something that must be done for 6-8wks at a time and keep a workable log to notice any improvements. Not sure what anyone would get out of doing it for 1 day as it'd be a waste of time.

Id love to give it a shot today! Just for a shock....change of pace....

[Dilanger]

Hey I** when are you going to post up your HIT leg routine? Very interested what to see how you train your legs.

[IBdmfkr]

When my life settles down a bit, I'll get around to it soon enough.

[Columbus]

why 6-10 for deads and not try and use heavier weights, lower reps? What do feel is best for mass? a 5x5 routine or 4x8?

[IBdmfkr]

I normally do 1-2work sets, I don't believe 5x5 or 4x8 is more beneficial, nor is it considered a form of HIT.

[*Narkissos*]

Good discussion.. Give it a shot when you have 3months to take away from your regular routine and you just might be quite suprised at the results.

Summer 2007 is 3 months long...

If you've no objection to me hanging out at your place for 3 months next summer holla.

Nark

[IBdmfkr]

You're welcome anytime C... you know that I'll put your ass to work down here lol

You're used to chillin on your island eating coconuts all day.

[*Narkissos*]

^^LMAO...

I sure will miss those darned coconuts

We'll set it up.

MM's HIT sounds interesting.