Once a week or Twice per week?

[JuliusPleaser]

Hey guys,

I've done both types of splits and I don't really see a difference in whether or not you hit a muscle twice per work or totally obliterate it once a week. It seems that total volume is what matters per week, but some say to hit twice a week to take advantage of that higher protein synthesis. However, people claim that there is no way you can not hit all your muscles several times a week, giving an example of doing chest that hits tris and shoulders etc. So its a moot argument.

Currently I am doing Upper, Lower, OFF, then Push, Pull, Legs OFF. Its gets me in the gym but i limit myself to 3 exercises for 3 sets each per muscle group. Its a nice split but something is telling me to go back to once per week and add more cardio. The reason for this is because I actually need to lose a lot of fat and I recently learned that a work out is not really much caloric expenditure.

I say this because I recently saw a video from IFBB pro Greg Doucette who has a masters in Kinesiology basically explaining how in order to burn 10 calories weight lifting, you need to move like 800 lbs 3 meters or something. So in other words, if you did 10 reps of 400lbs, you maybe burned 10 cals. That's Not much at all, compared to as he said with cardio (LISS) being superior in creating a caloric deficit (along with diet obvious) because you are moving your entire weight over and over and over again over a longer period of time than a few sets. He said if you're lucky you could maybe burn 300 calories on a BRUTAL leg day. I think this makes sense and is a huge revelation for me. I always thought workouts created like 400-500 calorie deficits but they don't.

So that's why i was thinking get hit the weights 4x a week to maintain muscle while hitting cardio 3x a week.

What do you guys thinks?

[Ashop]

You grow when you rest. So I think you should hit it hard for brief periods 45-60 min and then rest and recover. If you train hard enough hitting each body part 1x per week should be plenty. Do cardio only on the days you don't weigh train.

[JuliusPleaser]

You grow when you rest. So I think you should hit it hard for brief periods 45-60 min and then rest and recover. If you train hard enough hitting each body part 1x per week should be plenty. Do cardio only on the days you don't weigh train.

Yes I know, just alot of research coming out recently about how 1x per week isn't enough; but then you had guys like Dorian and Menzter.

[Charlie67]

Generically speaking I think almost everybody would benefit from working muscles more than one time a week... Dorian is an exception, Yates is an exception, blah blah blah... Guys like that are anomalies. I think most people jump to working a muscle one day a week because that's what they read in the magazines.

I really believe this is person dependent... You have to figure out what works for you and go with it. I naturally have a wide thick back... So I do a thorough back workout once week, But hit my lower back twice.. By contrast, my shoulders suck. So I do shoulders three times a week (hitting side and rear twice, and fronts once). I also do hamstrings twice a week, but quads only once. I hit calves once a week because Fk those things, lol.

There's so many other things (total volume, total effort, total sets, sleep, food, etc.) Look in the mirror, figure out what you need to work on, and build a routine around it.

Best of luck,
C-

[JuliusPleaser]

Generically speaking I think almost everybody would benefit from working muscles more than one time a week... Dorian is an exception, Yates is an exception, blah blah blah... Guys like that are anomalies. I think most people jump to working a muscle one day a week because that's what they read in the magazines.

I really believe this is person dependent... You have to figure out what works for you and go with it. I naturally have a wide thick back... So I do a thorough back workout once week, But hit my lower back twice.. By contrast, my shoulders suck. So I do shoulders three times a week (hitting side and rear twice, and fronts once). I also do hamstrings twice a week, but quads only once. I hit calves once a week because Fk those things, lol.

There's so many other things (total volume, total effort, total sets, sleep, food, etc.) Look in the mirror, figure out what you need to work on, and build a routine around it.

Best of luck,
C-

Indeed

[redz]

I like to do 45 minutes cardio every workout it really helps.

[JuliusPleaser]

Maybe I read this wrong you only do 9 sets per workout? I do 15 sets plus 45 mins cardio minimum every workout.

No. Each muscle group gets 12 sets per body part a week.

[redz]

I edited before that response I re-read and realized that. So how many total sets you typically do?

[JuliusPleaser]

I edited before that response I re-read and realized that. So how many total sets you typically do?

Currently my routine is not as crazy as I used to go. Every week, each body part is trained 12 sets total, but legs and back get 15 sets per week.

[Windex]

The once per week bro split dogma doesn't work for a lot of people because their perception of failure is very different from true failure (negative, drop sets, forced reps, etc). 100% failure is also hard to achieve without a lifting partner as well.

[GearHeaded]

for a majority of people hitting a muscle group twice per week and dividing up the volume is more effective.. multiple studies have been done on this and its pretty much the gold standard now.
instead of doing chest every Monday for an hour and destroying it with 20 working sets, its better to do chest on Monday for 10 sets and hit it again on Friday for another 10 sets. the total weekly volume is the same but there is more frequency.

also , your 20 sets of chest for the week when split up into two separate sessions are going to be more effective sets. because your more fresh.. when you do 20 sets all in one long drawn out session, your sets 12-20 are not as effective cause your fatigued. those sets basically become junk volume. and not only is junk volume not going to help you grow, it can do the reverse and you'll start losing gains.

I recently seen a study done on semi trained individuals (3 years lifting experience) where the volume groups were split up. one group was doing 20 sets in one workout once per week , where as other groups were only doing 5 sets per workout but hit the same muscle 3x per week. the group that was doing 20 sets in a single workout actually lost muscle and had zero gains, the group that did only 5 sets but 3x per week made substantial gains.


you can't make gains by doing more volume then you can recover from. MRV = Maxiumum Recoverable Volume. once you exceed this your basically spinning your wheels and gong no where.
its different for everyone. for me on say chest for example, its basically 6 hard working sets per workout. I hit chest twice per week so thats 12 total working sets per week (theres no way I could do 12 in one workout though and perform well or recover). so for chest my current MRV for the week is 12.
keep in mind this doesn't mean I only do 12 total sets of chest in a week. I do 12 'working sets'. max effort sets.
so if I'm doing bench press and I hit a set of 135 for 10 (thats like 25 reps from failure), then a set of 175 for 10, then a set of 225 for 8 ,,, none of those sets count. because those sets are not max effort. when I get to 285 for 5 hard reps, thats the set that counts. I'll do two of those and then move on to the next exercise. so at this point I'm only 2 'working' sets into my workout. I need to hit 6 total.. which may not sound like a lot, but its still gonna take me 50 mins (again the non working sets don't count)..



as for the whole idea of working out and burning calories . totally irrelevant imo. your not training with weights to burn calories, your training to provide a stimulus to muscle so it can adapt and grow. sure this may burn some calories in the process but its irrelevant.
heck if you burn 300 cals during your weight training session, what they heck is that,, nothing. thats simply not eating a doughnut for breakfast. way easier to cut cals by not eating the doughnut then training your ass off in the gym for an hour.

if your wanting to burn cals, that comes from diet and NEAT (non exercise activity thermogenesis). just keeping active and moving and doing stuff during the day can burn up to 150 calories per hour. its for more effective to have a good diet and a high amount of NEAT to burn calories then it is to weight train to burn cals.

another example -- lets say you wanted to burn 600 cals. well shit thats probably a long high volume grueling weight training session for 2 hours or more..
well I could accomplish that same 600 cal burn by just sitting on my couch all day.. all I have to do is switch over to a carnivore diet. lets say my TDEE is 2000 cals per day, and I eat all of those 2000 cals from meat. well when you calculate the thermic effect of animal protein and it requiring 30 cals per 100 cals you eat of it just to digest and assimilate it, you've burned 600 cals just from eating the meat.
your 2000 calorie diet now has you at 1400 cals and your in a 600 calorie deficit. even though your eating at maintenance.. heck thats like doing 2 hours of cardio. and all you did was tweak your diet.
again thats where calorie burning efficiency comes in . working out with weights to burn calories is so far from optimal or efficient it shouldn't even be a consideration.

I could easily get someone burning 2500 cals per day just from adjusting their diet and their NEAT.. no cardio or training even needed. on top of the fact that I can add drugs that will burn another 500 cals.
thats 3000 cals easily burnt .. yet working out with weights for an hour will likely only burn about 300. thats it. so again weight training is NOT for calorie burning. its like using a uni cycle to commute 20 miles away for work. its not effecient compared to so many other things


anyhow, just some things to think about

[JuliusPleaser]

The once per week bro split dogma doesn't work for a lot of people because their perception of failure is very different from true failure (negative, drop sets, forced reps, etc). 100% failure is also hard to achieve without a lifting partner as well.

Well when I did Dorian HIT i was my strongest ever. I was rowing 315 barbel for 6 reps. My approach was I would do a set or 2 of a weight then literally double it to working set; and then I would do a single drop set to finish off since I had no parter. It was a great system. I only worked out 4x a week and got pretty big, but I never got lean off it. Perhaps I sould have done cardio on off days (LISS). I may return to that system this week because right now I'm doing what I mentioned above and the intensity is good, being that I have total control of the weight, and have been focusing more on the eccentric, so my pumps are great (MK sure is helpful) but I'm pushing some Pu$$y ass weight lol. Which is fine by me but I am totally healed by the next work out. So sure I could be growing 2x a week, but when I used to train like Dorian, therew would be no way I could hit back twice or anything twice. Maybe calves but that's it.

[JuliusPleaser]

for a majority of people hitting a muscle group twice per week and dividing up the volume is more effective.. multiple studies have been done on this and its pretty much the gold standard now.
instead of doing chest every Monday for an hour and destroying it with 20 working sets, its better to do chest on Monday for 10 sets and hit it again on Friday for another 10 sets. the total weekly volume is the same but there is more frequency.

also , your 20 sets of chest for the week when split up into two separate sessions are going to be more effective sets. because your more fresh.. when you do 20 sets all in one long drawn out session, your sets 12-20 are not as effective cause your fatigued. those sets basically become junk volume. and not only is junk volume not going to help you grow, it can do the reverse and you'll start losing gains.

I recently seen a study done on semi trained individuals (3 years lifting experience) where the volume groups were split up. one group was doing 20 sets in one workout once per week , where as other groups were only doing 5 sets per workout but hit the same muscle 3x per week. the group that was doing 20 sets in a single workout actually lost muscle and had zero gains, the group that did only 5 sets but 3x per week made substantial gains.


you can't make gains by doing more volume then you can recover from. MRV = Maxiumum Recoverable Volume. once you exceed this your basically spinning your wheels and gong no where.
its different for everyone. for me on say chest for example, its basically 6 hard working sets per workout. I hit chest twice per week so thats 12 total working sets per week (theres no way I could do 12 in one workout though and perform well or recover). so for chest my current MRV for the week is 12.
keep in mind this doesn't mean I only do 12 total sets of chest in a week. I do 12 'working sets'. max effort sets.
so if I'm doing bench press and I hit a set of 135 for 10 (thats like 25 reps from failure), then a set of 175 for 10, then a set of 225 for 8 ,,, none of those sets count. because those sets are not max effort. when I get to 285 for 5 hard reps, thats the set that counts. I'll do two of those and then move on to the next exercise. so at this point I'm only 2 'working' sets into my workout. I need to hit 6 total.. which may not sound like a lot, but its still gonna take me 50 mins (again the non working sets don't count)..



as for the whole idea of working out and burning calories . totally irrelevant imo. your not training with weights to burn calories, your training to provide a stimulus to muscle so it can adapt and grow. sure this may burn some calories in the process but its irrelevant.
heck if you burn 300 cals during your weight training session, what they heck is that,, nothing. thats simply not eating a doughnut for breakfast. way easier to cut cals by not eating the doughnut then training your ass off in the gym for an hour.

if your wanting to burn cals, that comes from diet and NEAT (non exercise activity thermogenesis). just keeping active and moving and doing stuff during the day can burn up to 150 calories per hour. its for more effective to have a good diet and a high amount of NEAT to burn calories then it is to weight train to burn cals.

another example -- lets say you wanted to burn 600 cals. well shit thats probably a long high volume grueling weight training session for 2 hours or more..
well I could accomplish that same 600 cal burn by just sitting on my couch all day.. all I have to do is switch over to a carnivore diet. lets say my TDEE is 2000 cals per day, and I eat all of those 2000 cals from meat. well when you calculate the thermic effect of animal protein and it requiring 30 cals per 100 cals you eat of it just to digest and assimilate it, you've burned 600 cals just from eating the meat.
your 2000 calorie diet now has you at 1400 cals and your in a 600 calorie deficit. even though your eating at maintenance.. heck thats like doing 2 hours of cardio. and all you did was tweak your diet.
again thats where calorie burning efficiency comes in . working out with weights to burn calories is so far from optimal or efficient it shouldn't even be a consideration.

I could easily get someone burning 2500 cals per day just from adjusting their diet and their NEAT.. no cardio or training even needed. on top of the fact that I can add drugs that will burn another 500 cals.
thats 3000 cals easily burnt .. yet working out with weights for an hour will likely only burn about 300. thats it. so again weight training is NOT for calorie burning. its like using a uni cycle to commute 20 miles away for work. its not effecient compared to so many other things


anyhow, just some things to think about

Funny you mention carnivore because i just told my wife we need to go carnivore because we are clearly insulin resistent and need a break from carbs for a bit. Heading to Costco right after this to get some steaks, pork, ham, etc. Im gonna do steak and eggs in the am, and ribeye at night; prob still eat cheese. I shouldn't be concerned about glycogen at this point, im a fat whale and need to lose fat. Probably is carnivore is quite expensive and I know I can eat carbs and count calories with apps but I'm so tired of that crap and its not sustainable for life. I rather just weigh food and eat it lol.

[GearHeaded]

Funny you mention carnivore because i just told my wife we need to go carnivore because we are clearly insulin resistent and need a break from carbs for a bit. Heading to Costco right after this to get some steaks, pork, ham, etc. Im gonna do steak and eggs in the am, and ribeye at night; prob still eat cheese. I shouldn't be concerned about glycogen at this point, im a fat whale and need to lose fat. Probably is carnivore is quite expensive and I know I can eat carbs and count calories with apps but I'm so tired of that crap and its not sustainable for life. I rather just weigh food and eat it lol.

well when you go to a carnivore diet and you look at the 'bang for your buck' and the nutrient efficiency of the food your eating, you'll find that carnivore is actually fairly affordable .
you know an entire box of cereal is like 5$ and contains basically zero nutrients and won't provide you with anything beneficial other then some junk sugar.
BUT you can buy an entire whole chicken for that same $5 and get way more nutrition for that. or you could buy some ground beef, or London broil steaks, or a beef roast for around 8$ and get way way more nutrition.

so think about it that way. your getting far more nutrition going with a meat based diet, even though on the surface meat looks more expensive then junk carbs, your just getting far more actual nutrition with the meat.

so I think your on the right track.. and heck like I mentioned in my previous post , just by eating a meat only diet your going to likely burn 600+ cals just sitting their digestion and assimilating the meat.
easy way to get lean

[JuliusPleaser]

Here's a pic of me following the Simply Shredded program (each muscle 2x per week) Push pull legs, and was also flexible dieting. (LEFT)
VS
Dorian 4x a week each muscle once to death, 1 working set (after 1-2 warm ups) finished with a drop. Was still doing flexible dieting but not really, was really doing rice and steak Stan Effodring type, but then did cheats. No counting either. (RIGHT)

I didn't cover my entire face so you can see how much leaner I was in the left.

So my logic is I should go do the 2x per week but I was on gear in both pics. Now I'm on nothing but MK and creatine

Also I didn't do any cardio in the right pic, whatsoever.

[JuliusPleaser]

I agree. I def am going to do that simply for the TEF of protein. Now what do you say about muscle glycogen? Will gluconegensis be able to keep up or should I throw some fruit in there, like an apple a day or something? Or just go straight animal products? I train fasted in the AM empty stomach so I have no issue with training without carbs.

[GearHeaded]

most bang for your buck carnivore diet foods --
London broil steaks, whole chickens, chicken thighs, eggs, 80/20 ground beef, ham, kielbasa sausage whole milk, block cheese, butter

more expensive -
fish like salmon and even tuna, ribeye steaks and other steaks, chicken breast, bacon, sausages or pre flavored brats, lamb, bison


IF you can afford it and you want the most nutrition
Ribeye steaks, grass fed butter, salmon, tuna steaks, sardines, bison, lamb, scallops, center cut pork, shrimp, clams, grass fed ground beef

if your on a super budget -- whole chicken is extremely affordable. like 5-7$ depeding on where you live. you can food prep a whole chicken in a crock pot with butter and seasonings extremely easily. feed a whole family or have chicken for yourself for days.
save all the bones and broth and leftovers and make your won chicken broth.
you'll still want to add red meat when you can. has a lot more nutrients and a better healthy fat profile.

if your eating a lot of chicken and lean meats on carnivore, I recommend adding some healthy fats. I would add avacodo and olives to some of your meals. and of course some dairy and eggs

[Windex]

Chicken liver has way more nutrition than boneless skinless chicken breast and costs a fraction of the price.

Same as buying a whole turkey. I imagine since thanksgiving just finished in the states, whole poultry is probably on sale?

[JuliusPleaser]

most bang for your buck carnivore diet foods --
London broil steaks, whole chickens, chicken thighs, eggs, 80/20 ground beef, ham, kielbasa sausage whole milk, block cheese, butter

more expensive -
fish like salmon and even tuna, ribeye steaks and other steaks, chicken breast, bacon, sausages or pre flavored brats, lamb, bison


IF you can afford it and you want the most nutrition
Ribeye steaks, grass fed butter, salmon, tuna steaks, sardines, bison, lamb, scallops, center cut pork, shrimp, clams, grass fed ground beef

if your on a super budget -- whole chicken is extremely affordable. like 5-7$ depeding on where you live. you can food prep a whole chicken in a crock pot with butter and seasonings extremely easily. feed a whole family or have chicken for yourself for days.
save all the bones and broth and leftovers and make your won chicken broth.
you'll still want to add red meat when you can. has a lot more nutrients and a better healthy fat profile.

if your eating a lot of chicken and lean meats on carnivore, I recommend adding some healthy fats. I would add avacodo and olives to some of your meals. and of course some dairy and eggs

Yea I'm certainly going to almost everything you listed.

Chicken liver has way more nutrition than boneless skinless chicken breast and costs a fraction of the price.

Same as buying a whole turkey. I imagine since thanksgiving just finished in the states, whole poultry is probably on sale?

Probably. Even the big hams I'm hoping too. Time to get the crock pot out also. I want variety so I don't get borned eating eggs and steak all week

BTW, what do you two think about the above picture I posted. Which routine should I go back to if fat loss is the goal while going carnivore?

[GearHeaded]

I agree. I def am going to do that simply for the TEF of protein. Now what do you say about muscle glycogen? Will gluconegensis be able to keep up or should I throw some fruit in there, like an apple a day or something? Or just go straight animal products? I train fasted in the AM empty stomach so I have no issue with training without carbs.

great question .. ok so if you go full on carnivore and your at maintenance cals or less, your going to be going into ketosis. not that thats even that important, but you will have ketones as a fuel source at your disposal (where as right now on a carb based diet you only have glucose and fatty acids).
ketones are primarily going to fuel the brain. ketones are not efficient at generating muscle ATP but are very efficiently used by the brain. normally the brain uses around 500-600 cals of just glucose alone each day. now that your brain is running off of ketones , you have more glucose available to be used as muscle glycogen.. and keep in mind that stored muscle glycogen can only be used by the muscle cells its stored in. so YES you can have sufficient glycogen stores and still remain in ketosis and produce ketones.

NO I would not eat fruit as a way to restore glycogen in muscle. fruit contains mainly fructose as its sugar.. the body will not store fructose as muscle glycogen, it can only store it in the liver.
now I'm a fan of fruit, I'm not demonizing it and I think its great.. I'm just saying in this specific context fruit is not the 'go to' for muscle glycogen at all.


now yes your body will still produce glucose and have some glycogen storage even if your in ketosis via gluconeogensis. but this is not ideal.. the hormone thats mainly responsible and drives gluconeogenisis is Cortisol. having high cortisol is not ideal. so you don't want to rely on gluconeogenis as your soul means of glycogen storage.

so what I recommend is doing a once per week carb re-feed. and this is just for 1-2 meals (not the whole day) and it needs to be around your workout when glut 4 levels are high and the carbs you consume will be signaled for muscle glycogen storage.

so do carnivore all week. then on Saturday , say its your heavy leg day , load up on about 200g of carbs post workout. white rice and a potato (and if you like fruit, use something like a banana which is higher in glucose then fructose).
this will load muscle glycogen.. you will still stay in ketosis. you will blunt cortisol.

also , fats. get plenty of healthy fats in. people forget that muscle cells also take in fatty acids and not just glycogen.

[GearHeaded]

Here's a pic of me following the Simply Shredded program (each muscle 2x per week) Push pull legs, and was also flexible dieting. (LEFT)
VS
Dorian 4x a week each muscle once to death, 1 working set (after 1-2 warm ups) finished with a drop. Was still doing flexible dieting but not really, was really doing rice and steak Stan Effodring type, but then did cheats. No counting either. (RIGHT)

I didn't cover my entire face so you can see how much leaner I was in the left.

So my logic is I should go do the 2x per week but I was on gear in both pics. Now I'm on nothing but MK and creatine

Also I didn't do any cardio in the right pic, whatsoever.

if things are set up properly I think you can get leaner and still maintain your fullness. now without AAS your not going to have near the protein effeciency or the glucose super compensation effects. so going high protein is essential and so is 'timing' of any carb consumption. so your diet needs to be spot on.
also with training. your recovery is going to be the limiting factor without AAS. make sure you hit those crucial working sets that provide the stimulus you need, and thats it. don't go beyond that. don't think that extra volume junk sets are going to do anything for you.
your calorie burning will happen just fine via diet and NEAT. your training with weights is just for the stimulus needed to grow and maintain muscle.


drugs -
your not able to take any AAS . but with the MK677 and adding in something like Clen (at low dose) and T3/T4 is pretty syneregistic and will not only add to fat loss benefits it will also be 'anabolic ' (with sufficient natty estrogen levels .. guys that go flat and lose muscle with thyroid hormone are generally low in estrogen levels from taking AI's or they are taking way too much T3).
40mcg Clen, 25mcg T3 and/or 75mcg T4 with the 25mg MK at night, that combo will help

[JuliusPleaser]

if things are set up properly I think you can get leaner and still maintain your fullness. now without AAS your not going to have near the protein effeciency or the glucose super compensation effects. so going high protein is essential and so is 'timing' of any carb consumption. so your diet needs to be spot on.
also with training. your recovery is going to be the limiting factor without AAS. make sure you hit those crucial working sets that provide the stimulus you need, and thats it. don't go beyond that. don't think that extra volume junk sets are going to do anything for you.
your calorie burning will happen just fine via diet and NEAT. your training with weights is just for the stimulus needed to grow and maintain muscle.


drugs -
your not able to take any AAS . but with the MK677 and adding in something like Clen (at low dose) and T3/T4 is pretty syneregistic and will not only add to fat loss benefits it will also be 'anabolic ' (with sufficient natty estrogen levels .. guys that go flat and lose muscle with thyroid hormone are generally low in estrogen levels from taking AI's or they are taking way too much T3).
40mcg Clen, 25mcg T3 and/or 75mcg T4 with the 25mg MK at night, that combo will help

I do have some pharm clen left I can do 40mg a day keep to add to the mix. Do you think I should be doing HIT or 2x a week? Obvious I think I did HIT correctly lol. If I can do HIT 4x a week and do LISS 2-3x a week on off days

[JuliusPleaser]

Whatever you answer I'll be starting to do tomorrow so let me know lol

[JuliusPleaser]

Well starting carnivore today. Eggs and steak for breakfast

[Windex]

I do have some pharm clen left I can do 40mg a day keep to add to the mix. Do you think I should be doing HIT or 2x a week? Obvious I think I did HIT correctly lol. If I can do HIT 4x a week and do LISS 2-3x a week on off days

If it worked for you before then you can certainly continue until progress slows or plateaus.

[GearHeaded]

I do have some pharm clen left I can do 40mg a day keep to add to the mix. Do you think I should be doing HIT or 2x a week? Obvious I think I did HIT correctly lol. If I can do HIT 4x a week and do LISS 2-3x a week on off days

keep in mind that HIT cardio is glycolytic (where as steady state cardio is more lipolytic). and on a no/low carb diet glycogen is going to be a limited resource . so I wouldn't waste time doing a glycolytic form of cardio and burning up that limited resource.. you'll likely be in ketosis and your body will become very efficient at burning fat for fuel. doing a 50 minute treadmill session at 3.5 pace and 4 incline is going to be easy breezy for you (cause in ketosis you have unlimited energy) and you'll burn up plenty of fat in the process while preserving muscle glycogen.

also HIT cardio is more 'catabolic' , especially if your trying to cut and in a calorie deficit, and you don't have any anabolics helping you preserve muscle.

I would just do moderate intensity steady state cardio 5-6x per week. its lipolytic and glycogen sparing

[JuliusPleaser]

keep in mind that HIT cardio is glycolytic (where as steady state cardio is more lipolytic). and on a no/low carb diet glycogen is going to be a limited resource . so I wouldn't waste time doing a glycolytic form of cardio and burning up that limited resource.. you'll likely be in ketosis and your body will become very efficient at burning fat for fuel. doing a 50 minute treadmill session at 3.5 pace and 4 incline is going to be easy breezy for you (cause in ketosis you have unlimited energy) and you'll burn up plenty of fat in the process while preserving muscle glycogen.

also HIT cardio is more 'catabolic' , especially if your trying to cut and in a calorie deficit, and you don't have any anabolics helping you preserve muscle.

I would just do moderate intensity steady state cardio 5-6x per week. its lipolytic and glycogen sparing

When I say "HIT" I mean HIT as in Dorian. I don't plan on doing any HIIT cardio at all for the reason you mentioned. The question I have is whether go HIT training or HVT while being zero carbs essentially.

[JuliusPleaser]

If it worked for you before then you can certainly continue until progress slows or plateaus.

Indeed. I just hate reading all this information that existst on both sides making good points.

[GearHeaded]

When I say "HIT" I mean HIT as in Dorian. I don't plan on doing any HIIT cardio at all for the reason you mentioned. The question I have is whether go HIT training or HVT while being zero carbs essentially.

lol . my bad


I pretty much assume anyone that runs gear and trains for bodybuilding purposes is already doing "HIT" training to some degree already.
unless your a total newb lifter, you cannot grow without high intensity max effort sets

I personally don't think Dorian style HIT training is anything unique or some form of specialized training system. its simply training with max effort sets which is what any good bodybuilder has done to get big in the first place.

so I would say yes on doing HIT . thats pretty much a given. whats not a given and what needs to be customized for yourself is your volume equations (MEV = minimum effective volume .. and MRV = Maximum recoverable volume).

so plan on doing "HIT" but just be careful with how you select your volume of those intense sets. I would start with a low number then ramp up the number of working sets per week as your progress and if your recovering just fine.


90% of people who train at the gym don't even consider "recovery". they think they are recovering just fine all the time no matter what.. they will do set after set after set week after week and be recovering just fine. they don't think ''recovery'' even plays a factor.
well this is because these pussies don't train "HIT" or train with intensity.

I guarantee you that if you train with max effort sets with true high intensity, recovery and limiting your sets is gong to be 100% applicable and a huge factor in your training

[GearHeaded]

guys that do 25 sets of chest two times per week either don't know how to calculate volume and count only working sets, or they don't know how to train with intensity..
its physically impossible to do 50 sets of chest per week if your training high intensity.

these guys do 5 sets of bench press, with pussy ass weight. then run over to cable flies and do 5 sets of that and swinging the weight and don't contract their chest. then do incline dumbbell presses with only 40 pounds for 5 sets.. then do 5 sets of machine presses while playing on their phone. then 5 sets of pec dec at the end of their workout and they still don't even have a chest pump at this time.
then they calculate that and say they did 25 sets of chest. bullshit. they didn't even do one

these guys are not really training with "high volume" like they pretend to be. they aren't training at all. they are spinning their wheels in the gym doing nothing.
a lot of high volume advocates simply don't know how to train in the first place and they are grossly over exaggerating their volume.


sure I've done "high volume" and done 12 sets of bench press in one workout.. but the only sets I counted were the 2 sets at 315 to failure. the other 10 are not counted at all

[JuliusPleaser]

Well i didn't see your response until just now after the gym. I decide to go with HIT and did back. I did 5 exercises. Each got 2 warm up sets of 8-12 reps; then I added enough weight after feeling it out to get 8 reps to good failure. SO each much got ONE working set.. A few of the exercises I did a drop set removing a plate to knock out another 4 reps (since I don't have a partner). I focused on going slow and all that so they weren't sloppy at all.

I feel Fking good right now. AND I have pump.

My breakfast was 3 eggs with 2 pieces of cheddar scrambled with med rare steak.

I guess we'll see if my back heals by thursday. if it does, I should prob go back to 2x a week.

Some people have suggest to cycle routines to get best of both worlds. Do HIT for a few weeks, then switch to HVT.

[GearHeaded]

Well i didn't see your response until just now after the gym. I decide to go with HIT and did back. I did 5 exercises. Each got 2 warm up sets of 8-12 reps; then I added enough weight after feeling it out to get 8 reps to good failure. SO each much got ONE working set.. A few of the exercises I did a drop set removing a plate to knock out another 4 reps (since I don't have a partner). I focused on going slow and all that so they weren't sloppy at all.

I feel Fking good right now. AND I have pump.

My breakfast was 3 eggs with 2 pieces of cheddar scrambled with med rare steak.

I guess we'll see if my back heals by thursday. if it does, I should prob go back to 2x a week.

Some people have suggest to cycle routines to get best of both worlds. Do HIT for a few weeks, then switch to HVT.

I change training programming quite often.. generally a meso cycle lasts about 8 weeks. sometimes 12+ weeks if its a progression based cycle.
I think changing it up every few weeks or too often is not beneficial though. after 2-3 weeks the adaptations you make are mainly neurological and motor skill development and not actual muscular adaptations. you need to let those motor skills set in first, and then overload the movements/exercise/load in order to create the muscular adaptations.
if you go program hoping or swathing things around too soon you never give the muscle a chance to fully adapt, overload , and ultimately grow.


now this does not mean you have to be just stuck in one type of program or 'system' for 8-12 weeks straight. if your going low volume high intensity you idon'thave to just be stuck with that within a single training block or meso cycle.

for example , I've got lots of different programs that I've written for clients that are phase based and multi faceted . they are not just 'one' system programs or basic training splits.
heres an example of a program I've had a lot of success with. it consists of 7 workouts. those 7 workouts make up a micro cycle. the 7 workouts may progress over time and when done 8 times over (each of the 7 workouts have been done 8 times) then its time to deload and go into a new cycle.
but I can combine multiple aspects into a single training split

Phase 1 - mechanical tension focus

workout 1 - chest, triceps, front delt
all heavy compound exercises in the 6-10 rep range. select sets go to failure.. selects sets go beyond failure

workout 2 - back, traps, rear delts, biceps
all heavy compound exercises in the 6-10 rep range. select sets go to failure.. selects sets go beyond failure

workout 3 - legs
all heavy compound exercises in the 6-10 rep range. select sets go to failure.. selects sets go beyond failure


phase 2 - metabolite focus

workout 4 - chest, triceps, front delt
all isolation movement focus. all contraction and muscle pump based focus. 12-20 reps

workout 5 - back, traps, rear delts, biceps
all isolation movement focus. all contraction and muscle pump based focus. 12-20 reps

workout 6 - legs
all isolation movement focus. all contraction and muscle pump based focus. 12-20 reps


workout 7 - full body or active recovery training and accessory work


that type of training split/micro cycle includes various different training philosophy within one training system.. you don't always have to pick one or the other or HIT vs HVT or DC. it can all be implemented in one training system

[JuliusPleaser]

I change training programming quite often.. generally a meso cycle lasts about 8 weeks. sometimes 12+ weeks if its a progression based cycle.
I think changing it up every few weeks or too often is not beneficial though. after 2-3 weeks the adaptations you make are mainly neurological and motor skill development and not actual muscular adaptations. you need to let those motor skills set in first, and then overload the movements/exercise/load in order to create the muscular adaptations.
if you go program hoping or swathing things around too soon you never give the muscle a chance to fully adapt, overload , and ultimately grow.


now this does not mean you have to be just stuck in one type of program or 'system' for 8-12 weeks straight. if your going low volume high intensity you idon'thave to just be stuck with that within a single training block or meso cycle.

for example , I've got lots of different programs that I've written for clients that are phase based and multi faceted . they are not just 'one' system programs or basic training splits.
heres an example of a program I've had a lot of success with. it consists of 7 workouts. those 7 workouts make up a micro cycle. the 7 workouts may progress over time and when done 8 times over (each of the 7 workouts have been done 8 times) then its time to deload and go into a new cycle.
but I can combine multiple aspects into a single training split

Phase 1 - mechanical tension focus

workout 1 - chest, triceps, front delt
all heavy compound exercises in the 6-10 rep range. select sets go to failure.. selects sets go beyond failure

workout 2 - back, traps, rear delts, biceps
all heavy compound exercises in the 6-10 rep range. select sets go to failure.. selects sets go beyond failure

workout 3 - legs
all heavy compound exercises in the 6-10 rep range. select sets go to failure.. selects sets go beyond failure


phase 2 - metabolite focus

workout 4 - chest, triceps, front delt
all isolation movement focus. all contraction and muscle pump based focus. 12-20 reps

workout 5 - back, traps, rear delts, biceps
all isolation movement focus. all contraction and muscle pump based focus. 12-20 reps

workout 6 - legs
all isolation movement focus. all contraction and muscle pump based focus. 12-20 reps


workout 7 - full body or active recovery training and accessory work


that type of training split/micro cycle includes various different training philosophy within one training system.. you don't always have to pick one or the other or HIT vs HVT or DC. it can all be implemented in one training system

makes total sense brother, i always appreciate your feedback

[JuliusPleaser]

Second day of HIT, I feel amazing. This is for me, none of this 2x a week thing. I killed chest and biceps today with flawless form, squeeze at the top, slow on the eccentric, pumps still there despite no carbs, and building up to heavier weights each set; then did a drop set to finish off...The pumps are probably from MK and drinking a lot of water and adding salt to my meats)

I will be doing, like Dorian suggets, 3x cardio sessions on off days,

[Nitmare67]

I'm new back into the game...been at it about a year now solid 6 days a week. I grow better hitting everything twice a week. That could be due to alot of things though. I really try to work hard everyday and that takes about 90 minutes lifting, super sets and not fucking around. My bench went up about 70 lbs in the past year.

[Wickedg8gt]

I change training programming quite often.. generally a meso cycle lasts about 8 weeks. sometimes 12+ weeks if its a progression based cycle.
I think changing it up every few weeks or too often is not beneficial though. after 2-3 weeks the adaptations you make are mainly neurological and motor skill development and not actual muscular adaptations. you need to let those motor skills set in first, and then overload the movements/exercise/load in order to create the muscular adaptations.
if you go program hoping or swathing things around too soon you never give the muscle a chance to fully adapt, overload , and ultimately grow.


now this does not mean you have to be just stuck in one type of program or 'system' for 8-12 weeks straight. if your going low volume high intensity you idon'thave to just be stuck with that within a single training block or meso cycle.

for example , I've got lots of different programs that I've written for clients that are phase based and multi faceted . they are not just 'one' system programs or basic training splits.
heres an example of a program I've had a lot of success with. it consists of 7 workouts. those 7 workouts make up a micro cycle. the 7 workouts may progress over time and when done 8 times over (each of the 7 workouts have been done 8 times) then its time to deload and go into a new cycle.
but I can combine multiple aspects into a single training split

Phase 1 - mechanical tension focus

workout 1 - chest, triceps, front delt
all heavy compound exercises in the 6-10 rep range. select sets go to failure.. selects sets go beyond failure

workout 2 - back, traps, rear delts, biceps
all heavy compound exercises in the 6-10 rep range. select sets go to failure.. selects sets go beyond failure

workout 3 - legs
all heavy compound exercises in the 6-10 rep range. select sets go to failure.. selects sets go beyond failure


phase 2 - metabolite focus

workout 4 - chest, triceps, front delt
all isolation movement focus. all contraction and muscle pump based focus. 12-20 reps

workout 5 - back, traps, rear delts, biceps
all isolation movement focus. all contraction and muscle pump based focus. 12-20 reps

workout 6 - legs
all isolation movement focus. all contraction and muscle pump based focus. 12-20 reps


workout 7 - full body or active recovery training and accessory work


that type of training split/micro cycle includes various different training philosophy within one training system.. you don't always have to pick one or the other or HIT vs HVT or DC. it can all be implemented in one training system

I like this workout example. How many "working sets" did you do in each workout? I know it says select sets to go to failure, and select sets to go beyond. On a normal workout, what is that for you?

[GearHeaded]

I like this workout example. How many "working sets" did you do in each workout? I know it says select sets to go to failure, and select sets to go beyond. On a normal workout, what is that for you?

for bigger body parts , its about 5-6 working sets per workout .. for small body parts, like biceps or side delts, I go close to failure (ie, working sets) more often because the small muscle groups in isolation exercises can handle more volume and it does not generate near as much systemic fatigue

[NFW]

Twice a week. For all the reasons Gearheaded listed above.