Warrior's short cycle feedback

[*Narkissos*]

Now with regard to Marcus/Warrior's thread.

I do know of people who've tried the prime/ rebound with great success.

I did directly post-contest... as did I B D.

Not Marcus'/Warrior's exact protocol.

No insulin either Gsxxr.

So i do believe it has merit.

I can't comment on the dosages used by Warrior however... but i can attest to the prime/rebound having merit.. even minus anabolics.














Admin.. Ross's new account:

The DOC

http://forums.steroid.com/members/the-doc-61455.html

[Random]

I know a guy going to nationals next year whos been using for 10 plus years...along with that hes done several Burst cycles with High doses in the same fashion...

the interesting part about it is that hes gone back to some traditional moderate doses and still able to make good gains, along with that there was a period where a went "off" and was able to make gains naturally as well..

i think that one can use this type of cycling to some extent and avoid serious side effects

CD

[Information]

Admin.. his new account:

*Ross*

http://forums.steroid.com/members/%2A-ross-%2A-61453.html

Thank you

[RA]

^^^^banned from every board cause he doesnt know what hes talking about

[Information]

Admin.. Ross's new account:

The DOC

http://forums.steroid.com/members/the-doc-61455.html

Thank you

[Random]

Ross im not against everything you say but i do feel you are a complete idiot.

[Swifto]

^^^^banned from every board cause he doesnt know what hes talking about

Some he does. Anti-gyno article, AI's when "off" (I think), few others...

[*Narkissos*]

You know what's funny?

I'm way shorter than Ross... I'm bigger than Ross now.. my bodyfat percentage is still low (as usual)... i don't have 2 years of cycling behind me lol.. and i'm the 'little man'





Back to your regular scheduled programming

[Swifto]

Ross im not against everything you say but i do feel you are a complete idiot.

I know its Ross...

But seriously, did no one read Booz's ****ing thread on flaming???!

[Random]

Hey Nark!

But Ross "might" compete this year! Watch out! err....

CD

[*Narkissos*]

Hey Nark!

But Ross "might" compete this year! Watch out! err....

CD

LMAO!

How long has he been saying that??

"I Ross am greater than Frank Zane!!!"



I'm taking this year off though CD... holla

5' 6" 212 lbs currently...230 lbs by March.

[Random]

How many years has he been hinting at it?

I'm taking this year off though CD... holla

5' 6" 212 lbs currently...230 lbs by March

HAHAHAH

train hard man, ill hit u up soon, i begin dieting in 9 wks! its on!

CD

[RA]

Some he does. Anti-gyno article, AI's when "off" (I think), few others...

Ok, lets do a search on his early claims and how accurate he was/is

[Swifto]

Ok, lets do a search on his early claims and how accurate he was/is

I said "some".

[*Narkissos*]

Can you post the studies for me?

Ditto.. I'm always up for a good read as well.

[evil pepsi]

can we please get this thread back on topic? if this guy is banned, acknowledging him will only fuel his rants more...

[marcus300]

I will post when i have some more time tomorrow, now Ross as gone we should get back on track and debate the thread.

[marcus300]

I know this post might be long but it is worth reading if building muscle is your goal, please take your time to read it and soak it in Thankyou,

I would like to go over a few issues what have arisen concerning this thread, first this type of cycling as been around for years many amateurs and professional bodybuilders use this type of cycling with great success, Its not something what ive made up it’s a part of modern day Bodybuilding, many on this board are just like sheep following certain people around agreeing because they might sound like they know what they talking about, be honest with yourself look at what your achieving and is it good enough!! fact is everyone is different and when we introduce chemicals within the body we react differently, you have to find out what works for YOU,

I’ve done many different cycles and compounds over the years and in time I learnt which compounds were the best bulkers and cutter for my body, also over time I started to get in tune with my body and understood how it grows and which cycles made the best gains, I am very in tune with my body I know by slightly altering my diet I can drop BF, I know which day its going to start to show and i know when am going to start gaining within a cycle, with experience you get this mind body conection which helps the whole process of building, for me using short cycles weather heavy burst or light cutters made the better gains in relation to sides to building muscle tissue ratio,

I also learnt which many don’t seem to grasp is that these 3-4 months cycles we use are so hard to recover from and maintain the muscle, we may all build muscle but if we are honest how much are we left with after PCT and some good time off?? Many go back on to soon to stop the muscle loss which ends up with even less gains for the following cycle because tolerance as been built up which in turn means more mg of AAS to get some kind of growth out of it, the fact of the matter we cant build muscle for all of the 3-4 months, some gain in the first half of the cycle some steady gain but slow down drasticly towards the back end and remainder few wks of the cycle, if we could carry on gaining for all them weeks we would all be over 500lbs+ its impossible to gain throughout a long cycle, Ive always gone back to short cycles for muscle gains and ive tried many different lenghts of cycles, listen to your body and go with how it grows,

The body grows in bursts and after tolerance as been built up and the growth window shuts there is no point in staying on cycle, all what happens is more harsher sides and even harder to bring back your own HPTA which in turn the muscle tissue you built you end up losing during pct or time off, one of the most important things anyone can do no matter what type of cycling you do is PRIMING before a cycle, if there is one thing everybody must understand is priming, if you don’t you are losing out on Hugh gains in muscle tissue,

If you prime correctly (carb cycling) this opens a major growth window and creates a very anabolic environment for muscle tissue to grow fast, with priming rotational diet it upgrades the receptors cites on muscle tissue for insulin , this changes the body’s ability to store carbs as glycogen rather than fat, anything what improves insulin sensitivity makes the receptors on the muscles more active and excitable which enhances glycogen formation, in simple terms the body is storing glucose from carbs as muscle glycogen and is less effective at storing it as glucose as body fat, this drives all nutrients in the muscle cells, so if you do this and create this very anabolic window and growth burst and put a cycle together which is designed for your body and couple this with a very intense training program, everything is directed in this growth window and pushes the boundaries for growth and the end result is Hugh amounts of new muscle tissue due to the prime opening this growth window making the cycle and training far more productive,

Now ive got loads of studies which means personal studies from real bodybuilders who have tried this short cycling theory, one of the best subjects would be Dorian, he used this system to push his body to compete in the Mr O, his team at the time explained to me just how this was far better for his body and produces the gains he needed, I also discovered short cycling was ideal for me especially when used with a prime and intense training program, if you are gaining with your way of cycling and the gains you are maintaining without losing nearly all of them then I would say don’t try it, go with what works, but if you are not happy with your cycling and you have more or less stayed the same over the last few cycles then this method is ideal to shock you into new growth,

I don’t want to discuss Warrior’s dosages because that’s what he used to grow he knew his own body, everyone is different many use a lot less, many use far more depends what your cycle history looks like to determine the dose to suit the process, yes this heavy short cycling is not for any new person starting up BB, but this method can be designed to suit any stage its just the dose what is adjusted to suit the person and his level,, yes blood work is far better and no were near as bad as long 3-4months cycle blood work, maintanance is easier and quicker due to the short time shutdown because you are better off shutting down your system for days instead of wks, yes some fat gain can come on but this is indivdual thing, also you need to be in tune with the body and understand when the body starts to change over and store more in the fat cells than muscle cells, but when bulking we always gain some BF anyway so when your in a growth burst feed it to the max and force new growth, also this type of training can not be kept up for a large number of weeks the body just breaks down, so in all, the short cycle with the prime and training just goes nicely together and compliments each other,

You must understand the whole process and, to be honest how can anyone say it doesn’t work?? I’ve done it many times many other BB’s use it with great success its simple! it works of course it might not work for everyone what does?? But it does build muscle to many people report it does for it not to be true, if I told you some of the gains BB’s have made with the whole process am talking about it would shock you, warrior hated this method and just look at his results, he said he is convince this builds muscle, Warrior is a very educated Bodybuilding and a big thinker, he is no fool am sure you can see that with his detailed report, you don’t have to read between the lines, he tells you straight what he gained and what he is holding several wks later, and anyone can see what amazing results they are,

Ive got nothing to gain from saying it does or doesn’t,am not trying to sell anything or have some magic pills for pct for sale, all I can say is try it please! fully understand it all first and then try it, if it doesn’t suit you and you not impressed with the results go with what works for you, once you have discover what works play around with the process of priming because I don’t care what anybody says this is far more important than any cycle method or compound system used, why do you think the pro’s look so big all the time and are in shape, photo shoots are always on the cards and they have to be in shape nearly all year round so they constantly priming and linking short burst cycle together and using some great compounds and dramatic dosages linked with a bridge but remember they are Pro’s so its extreme but we can learn from what they do and adjust the whole process to suit, they are constanly priming inbetwwen burst cycles to keep growing and holding muscle while reducing BF, also compounds used assist with this but look at the whole concept,, ask anyone who competes and what the result were like after dieting for a show and then went on cycle, they will report the best gains of their life and dieting for a comp isn’t the best way to prime its to harsh on the body and just look at the results from that, just think what they would be like if a proper prime was done with a carefully designed cycle, short cycling works no one can say it doesn’t it works for me and many who try it who it and implement it correctly, it makes me laugh so much when people say they don’t really like this method when they haven’t even tried it and year after year they still haven’t built any muscle,

Can you see that when this window is open and the body is in this growth spurt from priming and that the short cycle and nutrition is all directed into the muscles for growth this is why this method is a very good way of cycling, ive not just got Warrior’s great results ive got many who claim same kind of results,

Prime for 6-8wks +
Short cycle designed for your body and dosages to suit +
Growth Hormone +
Solid clean high calorie diet +
Heavy intense drop sets to total failure training program (HIT)
= Hugh muscle tissue gains

Please open you eyes and understand the whole method not just the heavy short cycling, there is so much for us all to learn from peoples experiences from doing these cycles, today bodybuilding is a science, be honest with yourself and look in the mirror, motivation and 24hr dedication is needed in this business to look your best you can, don’t dismiss some great results because you just don’t like the look of it, try it for yourself,

please feel free to post your commets or would like to debate any issues

[Swifto]

I know this post might be long but it is worth reading if building muscle is your goal, please take your time to read it and soak it in Thankyou,

I would like to go over a few issues what have arisen concerning this thread, first this type of cycling as been around for years many amateurs and professional bodybuilders use this type of cycling with great success, Its not something what ive made up it’s a part of modern day Bodybuilding, many on this board are just like sheep following certain people around agreeing because they might sound like they know what they talking about, be honest with yourself look at what your achieving and is it good enough!! fact is everyone is different and when we introduce chemicals within the body we react differently, you have to find out what works for YOU,

I’ve done many different cycles and compounds over the years and in time I learnt which compounds were the best bulkers and cutter for my body, also over time I started to get in tune with my body and understood how it grows and which cycles made the best gains, I am very in tune with my body I know by slightly altering my diet I can drop BF, I know which day its going to start to show and i know when am going to start gaining within a cycle, with experience you get this mind body conection which helps the whole process of building, for me using short cycles weather heavy burst or light cutters made the better gains in relation to sides to building muscle tissue ratio,

I also learnt which many don’t seem to grasp is that these 3-4 months cycles we use are so hard to recover from and maintain the muscle, we may all build muscle but if we are honest how much are we left with after PCT and some good time off?? Many go back on to soon to stop the muscle loss which ends up with even less gains for the following cycle because tolerance as been built up which in turn means more mg of AAS to get some kind of growth out of it, the fact of the matter we cant build muscle for all of the 3-4 months, some gain in the first half of the cycle some steady gain but slow down drasticly towards the back end and remainder few wks of the cycle, if we could carry on gaining for all them weeks we would all be over 500lbs+ its impossible to gain throughout a long cycle, Ive always gone back to short cycles for muscle gains and ive tried many different lenghts of cycles, listen to your body and go with how it grows,

The body grows in bursts and after tolerance as been built up and the growth window shuts there is no point in staying on cycle, all what happens is more harsher sides and even harder to bring back your own HPTA which in turn the muscle tissue you built you end up losing during pct or time off, one of the most important things anyone can do no matter what type of cycling you do is PRIMING before a cycle, if there is one thing everybody must understand is priming, if you don’t you are losing out on Hugh gains in muscle tissue,

If you prime correctly (carb cycling) this opens a major growth window and creates a very anabolic environment for muscle tissue to grow fast, with priming rotational diet it upgrades the receptors cites on muscle tissue for insulin , this changes the body’s ability to store carbs as glycogen rather than fat, anything what improves insulin sensitivity makes the receptors on the muscles more active and excitable which enhances glycogen formation, in simple terms the body is storing glucose from carbs as muscle glycogen and is less effective at storing it as glucose as body fat, this drives all nutrients in the muscle cells, so if you do this and create this very anabolic window and growth burst and put a cycle together which is designed for your body and couple this with a very intense training program, everything is directed in this growth window and pushes the boundaries for growth and the end result is Hugh amounts of new muscle tissue due to the prime opening this growth window making the cycle and training far more productive,

Now ive got loads of studies which means personal studies from real bodybuilders who have tried this short cycling theory, one of the best subjects would be Dorian, he used this system to push his body to compete in the Mr O, his team at the time explained to me just how this was far better for his body and produces the gains he needed, I also discovered short cycling was ideal for me especially when used with a prime and intense training program, if you are gaining with your way of cycling and the gains you are maintaining without losing nearly all of them then I would say don’t try it, go with what works, but if you are not happy with your cycling and you have more or less stayed the same over the last few cycles then this method is ideal to shock you into new growth,

I don’t want to discuss Warrior’s dosages because that’s what he used to grow he knew his own body, everyone is different many use a lot less, many use far more depends what your cycle history looks like to determine the dose to suit the process, yes this heavy short cycling is not for any new person starting up BB, but this method can be designed to suit any stage its just the dose what is adjusted to suit the person and his level,, yes blood work is far better and no were near as bad as long 3-4months cycle blood work, maintanance is easier and quicker due to the short time shutdown because you are better off shutting down your system for days instead of wks, yes some fat gain can come on but this is indivdual thing, also you need to be in tune with the body and understand when the body starts to change over and store more in the fat cells than muscle cells, but when bulking we always gain some BF anyway so when your in a growth burst feed it to the max and force new growth, also this type of training can not be kept up for a large number of weeks the body just breaks down, so in all, the short cycle with the prime and training just goes nicely together and compliments each other,

You must understand the whole process and, to be honest how can anyone say it doesn’t work?? I’ve done it many times many other BB’s use it with great success its simple! it works of course it might not work for everyone what does?? But it does build muscle to many people report it does for it not to be true, if I told you some of the gains BB’s have made with the whole process am talking about it would shock you, warrior hated this method and just look at his results, he said he is convince this builds muscle, Warrior is a very educated Bodybuilding and a big thinker, he is no fool am sure you can see that with his detailed report, you don’t have to read between the lines, he tells you straight what he gained and what he is holding several wks later, and anyone can see what amazing results they are,

Ive got nothing to gain from saying it does or doesn’t,am not trying to sell anything or have some magic pills for pct for sale, all I can say is try it please! fully understand it all first and then try it, if it doesn’t suit you and you not impressed with the results go with what works for you, once you have discover what works play around with the process of priming because I don’t care what anybody says this is far more important than any cycle method or compound system used, why do you think the pro’s look so big all the time and are in shape, photo shoots are always on the cards and they have to be in shape nearly all year round so they constantly priming and linking short burst cycle together and using some great compounds and dramatic dosages linked with a bridge but remember they are Pro’s so its extreme but we can learn from what they do and adjust the whole process to suit, they are constanly priming inbetwwen burst cycles to keep growing and holding muscle while reducing BF, also compounds used assist with this but look at the whole concept,, ask anyone who competes and what the result were like after dieting for a show and then went on cycle, they will report the best gains of their life and dieting for a comp isn’t the best way to prime its to harsh on the body and just look at the results from that, just think what they would be like if a proper prime was done with a carefully designed cycle, short cycling works no one can say it doesn’t it works for me and many who try it who it and implement it correctly, it makes me laugh so much when people say they don’t really like this method when they haven’t even tried it and year after year they still haven’t built any muscle,

Can you see that when this window is open and the body is in this growth spurt from priming and that the short cycle and nutrition is all directed into the muscles for growth this is why this method is a very good way of cycling, ive not just got Warrior’s great results ive got many who claim same kind of results,

Prime for 6-8wks +
Short cycle designed for your body and dosages to suit +
Growth Hormone +
Solid clean high calorie diet +
Heavy intense drop sets to total failure training program (HIT)
= Hugh muscle tissue gains

Please open you eyes and understand the whole method not just the heavy short cycling, there is so much for us all to learn from peoples experiences from doing these cycles, today bodybuilding is a science, be honest with yourself and look in the mirror, motivation and 24hr dedication is needed in this business to look your best you can, don’t dismiss some great results because you just don’t like the look of it, try it for yourself,

please feel free to post your commets or would like to debate any issues

I cannot see how a massive dosed "short burst cycle" lasting around 4 weeks are more healthy than staying on a cycle for 10-12 weeks whilst monitoring BW regularly. Simply isnt possible IMHO.

Someone mentioned this example when I spoke with them regarding short burst cycles.

Think of rec drugs. How can you really do damge to yourself (overdose)? One huge massive dose. Or a low dose for longer...

I think the massive dose wins, hands down.

I cannot see how sides can be reduced using this "short burst" method. HPTA "shutdown", "inhibition", possibly. Sides...No.

[marcus300]

I cannot see how a massive dosed "short burst cycle" lasting around 4 weeks are more healthy than staying on a cycle for 10-12 weeks whilst monitoring BW regularly. Simply isnt possible IMHO.

Someone mentioned this example when I spoke with them regarding short burst cycles.

Think of rec drugs. How can you really do damge to yourself (overdose)? One huge massive dose. Or a low dose for longer...

I think the massive dose wins, hands down.

I cannot see how sides can be reduced using this "short burst" method. HPTA "shutdown", "inhibition", possibly. Sides...No.

You wrong swifto, damage ocours when staying on for to long bringing back your system after shutting it down for a long time is hard work, this way the stuff is in does its job then out, open the growth window by priming and let the growth occour, it takes time for the body to adjust which means sides but by the time it does your off cycle,

i guess simple way is to try it, many report good bloodwork than 3-4month cycles do, how can that be wrong,

how can you comment on something you have never tried or understand, if i remember rightly your on your 2nd cycle, warriors report should gives you all the answers even bloodwork, to many BB's report the oppersite of what you are saying so i guess we should go with the people who have done it and tried it, no disrepect intended

If you are gaining and keeping all your gains carry on, but when you dont its time to have a look at other ways,

Id read my previous post more in detail, i know its long but it does have all the answers, best of luck

[vitor]

During the first 4 weeks(roughly 30 days) its only the hypotalmus and Pituitary which is inhibited, but the testicels doesnt usally shrink/shut down in this short period. Atleast thats what ive noticed from expirience, and recovery is rapid b/c of this imo...When you are on the Hypotalamus-pituitary-testes-axis are not working, and the longer they are asleep, the longer they will need to wake up again when coming off...Plain and simple.

Besides, a low dosage is yust as supressive as a high dosage(exept certain drugs), once you arent producing any natrual T-levels it makes no diffrence how much you inject as far as shutdown goes, what matters is the amount of time youre on.

And 30 days isnt really much time to expirience side-effects either.
I might try a 5 weeker pretty soon and see how it goes.

[Property of Steroid.com]

You wrong swifto, damage ocours when staying on for to long bringing back your system after shutting it down for a long time is hard work, this way the stuff is in does its job then out, open the growth window by priming and let the growth occour, it takes time for the body to adjust which means sides but by the time it does your off cycle,

i guess simple way is to try it, many report good bloodwork than 3-4month cycles do, how can that be wrong,

how can you comment on something you have never tried or understand, if i remember rightly your on your 2nd cycle, warriors report should gives you all the answers even bloodwork, to many BB's report the oppersite of what you are saying so i guess we should go with the people who have done it and tried it, no disrepect intended

If you are gaining and keeping all your gains carry on, but when you dont its time to have a look at other ways,

Id read my previous post more in detail, i know its long but it does have all the answers, best of luck

Doesn't Borrenson's protocol require bridging of some kind? If so, what?

Also, you said you have some studies verifying some of your/PB claims...can you post them?

[scriptfactory]

Doesn't Borrenson's protocol require bridging of some kind? If so, what?

Also, you said you have some studies verifying some of your/PB claims...can you post them?

Also interested to see them! Post them, please.

[goose]

I cannot see how a massive dosed "short burst cycle" lasting around 4 weeks are more healthy than staying on a cycle for 10-12 weeks whilst monitoring BW regularly. Simply isnt possible IMHO.

Someone mentioned this example when I spoke with them regarding short burst cycles.

Think of rec drugs. How can you really do damge to yourself (overdose)? One huge massive dose. Or a low dose for longer...

I think the massive dose wins, hands down.

I cannot see how sides can be reduced using this "short burst" method. HPTA "shutdown", "inhibition", possibly. Sides...No.

I don't feel that the claims of bad side effects are all that genuine. If you look at the risks and side effects of pharmacology as a whole, prostaglandins fall pretty low down on the list.

If you're going to take that level of anabolics, I believe in very short courses?thirty days, at the most, before your body realizes what happened.Receptor sites up-regulate.This is the logic to this method. When you do about 5000 milligrams a week, they respond unbelievably. So by using super-physiologic dosages and keeping cycles short, you won't need to increase the dosages with each successive cycle,infact you should need less. It's like training. A newcomer does 16 sets and makes gains. The more advanced someone is, the less amount of sets they need.Still I feel this method the PB way is for the very advanced.

[marcus300]

Doesn't Borrenson's protocol require bridging of some kind? If so, what?

Also, you said you have some studies verifying some of your/PB claims...can you post them?

Anthony things have moved on alot since PB days regarding this way of cycling but yes your correct he did mention bridging for those who compete at a high level, he use to put them on a low dose form of test or similar,

The studies i mention are my own personal studies which have come from Bodybuilders and not some made up docter experimenting on people who havent even train, i have many very similar to warriors claims, the ones i have which use GH within this method are very intresting some hugh gains are reported, also i dont think PB had to verify any claims Dorian speaks for himself, i know what your going to say about PB and DY but i did reply to your comments on the other thread you posted on,

Its not just the cycling what makes this work its the whole process priming,training,designing the right cycle for that BB and diet,

[Maldorf]

Anthony things have moved on alot since PB days regarding this way of cycling but yes your correct he did mention bridging for those who compete at a high level, he use to put them on a low dose form of test or similar,

The studies i mention are my own personal studies which have come from Bodybuilders and not some made up docter experimenting on people who havent even train, i have many very similar to warriors claims, the ones i have which use GH within this method are very intresting some hugh gains are reported, also i dont think PB had to verify any claims Dorian speaks for himself, i know what your going to say about PB and DY but i did reply to your comments on the other thread you posted on,

Its not just the cycling what makes this work its the whole process priming,training,designing the right cycle for that BB and diet,

I just finished a 5 week blitz cycle using these ideas and put on 22 pounds. I grew like mad, havent had that happen in a long time. It usually takes me 10 weeks, 2x as long, to put on that kind of mass. I was using a wide array of AAS, insulin and GH. With the GH I was running an average of 6 IU/day the first 4 weeks and then the 5th week I bumped it up to 8IU/day and saw some crazy gains. WIth the insulin, I was running 15IU post workout only.

[marcus300]

I just finished a 5 week blitz cycle using these ideas and put on 22 pounds. I grew like mad, havent had that happen in a long time. It usually takes me 10 weeks, 2x as long, to put on that kind of mass. I was using a wide array of AAS, insulin and GH. With the GH I was running an average of 6 IU/day the first 4 weeks and then the 5th week I bumped it up to 8IU/day and saw some crazy gains. WIth the insulin, I was running 15IU post workout only.

Thanks Maldorf for posting thats some serious gains, what difference is the bf before and after? also did you prime how long for? did you recover easier than normal? how bloodwork?

sorry for all the questions

[Maldorf]

Thanks Maldorf for posting thats some serious gains, what difference is the bf before and after? also did you prime how long for? did you recover easier than normal? how bloodwork?

sorry for all the questions

I primed for a long time. I would call it at least 10 weeks or more. I never had my bodyfat measured, but most would put mine before the cycle at about 7%and its now somewhere around 12% perhaps. Bodyweight went from 228 to 250 at 6 feet tall. I do keep close track of my waist measurement, and it went up a bit more than 1 inch. So that would put my fat gain at about 12 pounds or so. Lean gains then would be about 10 pounds which is awesome for me to do in only 5 weeks considering ive been lifting for over 20 years and cycling for about 9 years. I will start PCT tomorrow with HCG and see the doc later this week for a checkup. Probably will have a blood test run next week. As far as recovery, will have to wait and see how it goes.

[Big Gulps, Huh?]

Maybe this has been covered, but what are the effects on cycles in the future? If someone is used to doing the traditional 500mg. per week of test for 12 weeks and now dramatically increases the dose for a short burst cycle, how does that effect the cycles in the future? is 500mg. per week not going to be sufficient enough from now on to see gains?

i've seen people post saying short burst cycles are a great way to change things up in regards to traditional cycling.....but, correct me if im wrong, it sounds like Marcus is saying that the short heavy cycles should be used as a last resort for making gains, or for people who have done like 10+ cycles.

Hope what i'm asking makes sense.....any input is appreciated.

[Property of Steroid.com]

Anthony things have moved on alot since PB days regarding this way of cycling but yes your correct he did mention bridging for those who compete at a high level, he use to put them on a low dose form of test or similar,

The studies i mention are my own personal studies which have come from Bodybuilders and not some made up docter experimenting on people who havent even train, i have many very similar to warriors claims, the ones i have which use GH within this method are very intresting some hugh gains are reported, also i dont think PB had to verify any claims Dorian speaks for himself, i know what your going to say about PB and DY but i did reply to your comments on the other thread you posted on,

Its not just the cycling what makes this work its the whole process priming,training,designing the right cycle for that BB and diet,

In all fairness, if you're going to mention PB's success rate, it's only fair to mention that he didn't reccomend coming off at all for the people who it allegedly worked best for. As for Dorian's success speaking for itself, he denied much if any involvement with PB, and PB himself claimed only to speak to Dorian on the phone every couple of weeks...PB didn't claim that Dorian was following any of his protocols, and never said (that I read in any of his interviews) that Dorain followed a burst protocol.

Also, "studies" are not anecdotes or personal obsevations. Studies are studies. I think that we need to clarify that. In this case, you know people that this has worked for, but you don't actually have studies to back up these claims...you have anecdotes.

I'm not sold on this method being superior to any other, really...I think it's catchy and looks sexy on paper, but intuitively, doesn't it seem like it makes more sense that if you gain 25lbs over 12 weeks, you're more likely to hold on to it than if you gain it over 4 weeks? Lets take it to it's ultimate conclusion, and we'd have to assume that if you could gain 25lbs in one week, logically, that would be the easiest to hold onto? But we know that to bt false...

I don't know...I have a friend who conducted a few interviews with PB, and his asessment was that the guy was smart and charismatic, but that his methods aren't really too sound.

[marcus300]

In all fairness, if you're going to mention PB's success rate, it's only fair to mention that he didn't reccomend coming off at all for the people who it allegedly worked best for. As for Dorian's success speaking for itself, he denied much if any involvement with PB, and PB himself claimed only to speak to Dorian on the phone every couple of weeks...PB didn't claim that Dorian was following any of his protocols, and never said (that I read in any of his interviews) that Dorain followed a burst protocol.

Also, "studies" are not anecdotes or personal obsevations. Studies are studies. I think that we need to clarify that. In this case, you know people that this has worked for, but you don't actually have studies to back up these claims...you have anecdotes.

I'm not sold on this method being superior to any other, really...I think it's catchy and looks sexy on paper, but intuitively, doesn't it seem like it makes more sense that if you gain 25lbs over 12 weeks, you're more likely to hold on to it than if you gain it over 4 weeks? Lets take it to it's ultimate conclusion, and we'd have to assume that if you could gain 25lbs in one week, logically, that would be the easiest to hold onto? But we know that to bt false...

I don't know...I have a friend who conducted a few interviews with PB, and his asessment was that the guy was smart and charismatic, but that his methods aren't really too sound.

I would have to disagree Ive got loads of studies done by educated bodybuilders and not some study done by some doctor who experiments on people who haven't even been bodybuilding or taking AAS and reports alsorts of conflicting evidence, i would rather take it from real Bodybuilders who know what they doing because to be honest with every study as you call it there is always a contradicting one saying the opposite, its very simple Anthony it works to many people say it doesn't, now i know your personality and nature is to disagree with nearly everyone who as something interesting to say but come on your an educated man your on the BB sense, you know what kind of gains this does in the pro sense and armature,

I am not saying its better than another other way of cycling, if you have done it and tried it i would say YES your correct but with your statement but when you haven't i would rather believe BB's who have with good results, everyone is different so i would say try everyway possible and do what works, ive got nothing to gain have i saying it does, am not selling anything or have any magic Pills what are suppose to do magical things, am just giving people my experience and of many others, thats how we all learn, remember deca and dbol days, nothing set in stone when we introduce chemical within the body,

Like i said PB theory was way ahead of his time but this method as moved on alot and can be adjust to suit any level, but yes if your a cometing BB a bridge is required to get the most out of it, but we are all not at a high level,

AS for the claims just see what kind of muscle can be put on after comp show when you start a cycle, i will say again its not just the cycle Anthony its the whole process of priming, training,designing a cycle to suit and diet,

I did answer your question regarding PB on another thread, yes your right what you read but thats not the truth of the matter, everyone knows this in UK who are friendly with the DY camp and PB, i will copy and post what i posted when you said this before,

During the time Dorian was winning the British Championships and was preparing his assault on the Mr O his team consisted of many people but the drive behind his cycles and nutrition was Paul B, this is well know within the UK, i knew Paul and had many a conversation regarding this issue,

When DY was creating some major upsets in the Mr O Weider had many a conversation with him and here in the UK DY team knew he was going to be offered a contract, but Weider told him for him to be the face of Mr O he had to have the right people behind him and Paul B wasn't the type of guy the powers upstairs wanted to be around DY, This is because PB was very vocal in his steroid use and cycle he designed for pro's, this was something they didn't want DY to be associated with, it doesn't look good when he is going to be endorsed to sell such a protein and so on,

So DY and PB decided to say to the public that they had nothing to do with each other so DY could go on to better things, but behind the scenes PB and DY were in contact all the time discussing various aspects of his assault on the Mr O,

I hope this helps you understand why both parties said such things, if PB wasn't so open with his use of drugs am sure things would be different what you read in the mags but the truth and many people know this in the UK,
DY knew is wasn't wise to be known to be around PB while trying to win the Mr O, makes sense really.

[Property of Steroid.com]

I would have to disagree Ive got loads of studies done by educated bodybuilders and not some study done by some doctor who experiments on people who haven't even been bodybuilding or taking AAS and reports alsorts of conflicting evidence, .

You're using the word "study" to mean:

Anecdote. A study is one thing, and a personal story is another. One belongs in medical journals, the other belongs in a diary.

I believe it's misleading to say you have studies, which are really cycle logs or personal reports. When people ask "do you have a study to support your claim" you're being asked for a medical journal study, not to tell a story about this guy you know.

MyoGenX has never been "studied" in humans, and if I were to claim it has been, then directed the FDA to steroid .com posts (anecdotes) about how well the product works, they'd immediately make me amend those claims.

Hypothetical:

If I tell you that you can take 4,000mgs/week of anabolics, without hurting your overall cholesterol, you'd want proof right? Then what if I said I had a study? And you said lets see the study...and I said "I did it and my cholesterol didn't go over 189"


Would you consider that a study? When we (on this board) say "study" we mean something very specific, and I believe it adds an unwarranted aire of legitimacy to claims if there's a claim of a study proving something, when really its not a study, it's a nice little story about someone who did this thing this time.....in short it's an anecdote.

I believe real-world experience trumps studies all the time, but I don't confuse the two.

You have no studies, you have a bunch of anecdotes...maybe some cycle logs, etc...but no studies. It's important to be clear about this, before this particular discussion develops further.

[scriptfactory]

You're using the word "study" to mean:

Anecdote. A study is one thing, and a personal story is another. One belongs in medical journals, the other belongs in a diary.

I believe it's misleading to say you have studies, which are really cycle logs or personal reports. When people ask "do you have a study to support your claim" you're being asked for a medical journal study, not to tell a story about this guy you know.

MyoGenX has never been "studied" in humans, and if I were to claim it has been, then directed the FDA to steroid .com posts (anecdotes) about how well the product works, they'd immediately make me amend those claims.

Hypothetical:

If I tell you that you can take 4,000mgs/week of anabolics, without hurting your overall cholesterol, you'd want proof right? Then what if I said I had a study? And you said lets see the study...and I said "I did it and my cholesterol didn't go over 189"


Would you consider that a study? When we (on this board) say "study" we mean something very specific, and I believe it adds an unwarranted aire of legitimacy to claims if there's a claim of a study proving something, when really its not a study, it's a nice little story about someone who did this thing this time.....in short it's an anecdote.

I believe real-world experience trumps studies all the time, but I don't confuse the two.

You have no studies, you have a bunch of anecdotes...maybe some cycle logs, etc...but no studies. It's important to be clear about this, before this particular discussion develops further.

Exactly. When I heard "loads of studies" I figured there were actual studies conducted that in some way pertained to this way of cycling...

[vitor]

I think personal studies/reports are most intresting, people whos had real-live expirience about trying something, rather than a study which was done on mouse or an AIDS-patient.

[twiney]

Exactly. When I heard "loads of studies" I figured there were actual studies conducted that in some way pertained to this way of cycling...

Agreed I thought the guy had strong scientific study.He has very little.If this style was so good why is it not common?

[Bigmax]

its not common cause alot of people dont of it and to be quite honest the mgs invovled in short cycles most guys cant afford!!!

[Property of Steroid.com]

Exactly. When I heard "loads of studies" I figured there were actual studies conducted that in some way pertained to this way of cycling...

Maybe there's a language barrier. Perhaps in England, "studies" can have multiple meanings, while here in the USA, we basically ONLY mean peer-reviewed medical studies published in reputable journals...

I just think that we need to use the same words to mean the same things in this thread.

I feel (and this is only me talking) that if we were to go through Marcus' posts and replace "studies" with "anecdotes" (*which is actually what he has) then the strength of the claims made here (and this method of cycling) would seem much less strong to most of us.

[Maldorf]

I'm not sold on this method being superior to any other, really...I think it's catchy and looks sexy on paper, but intuitively, doesn't it seem like it makes more sense that if you gain 25lbs over 12 weeks, you're more likely to hold on to it than if you gain it over 4 weeks? Lets take it to it's ultimate conclusion, and we'd have to assume that if you could gain 25lbs in one week, logically, that would be the easiest to hold onto? But we know that to bt false...

The big thing to remember here is if you do a 12 week cycle, your PCT is going to be much longer and run about 12 weeks. Doing a short cycle, pct should run about half the time and then youre back on again. Its during those long extended PCTs that you lose your gains. Nobody is going to be able to hold onto a majority of the muscle they gained if they are relying on endogenous test production for an extended period of time, with the exception perhaps being someone that hasnt been lifting or cycling AAS for very long. Newbies seem to be able to succeed at these longer cycles, but for those with much experience it just doesnt hold up.
Now it is a big jump to say that you will recover faster from a short heavy cycle than from a long moderate one, but from what we have heard it seems to be the case. Only time will tell here.

[Property of Steroid.com]

Just a thought:

Has anyone here ever done really heavy (4+ grams a week) cycles? It's uncomfortable. You can barely catch your breath, you sweat all the time, etc....

Isn't it possible that PB's addiction to pain killers is a mitigating factor that helped him endure the discomfort of 20-30 daily injections, and the discomfort of being on all that gear all the time?

[Warrior]

Agreed I thought the guy had strong scientific study.He has very little.If this style was so good why is it not common?

It's not popular becuase it's not a cookie-cutter way to cycle... you need to be an advanced athlete - one that knows his genetic limitations so you can not only maximize the heavy drug use - but also prime for it correctly. Also, the replies in this thread show you how people would rather be critical than find supporting or contradicting evidence for themselves.

How many threads are on the boards asking how the pros arrange their drug use? Too many... but due to employment contracts and bodybuilding politics - they ain't going to come on here and give you their theories themselves. They might do somehting similar to what Marcus is presenting - or it could be something even more right field. But the reality is - the information might be right in front of your eyes... just be ready to accept new ideas and learn from them. It might work for you - it might not.

Can the human body better sustain long term heavy androgen cycles with lower doses versus a shorter, heavier cycle - can it safely and prductively? This is the question and we should work together to find the answer. You were given my feedback (to include some bloodwork, bodycomp changes and photos) - lets keep the journals coming and the feedback productive. Lets find a solution based on the evidence we all want - not just intercept it with skeptism to the new ideas...

Clinical studies are not performed to promote AAS use as a performance enhancer... many "high dose" studies are posted for TRT, male-contraception or sexual reassignment procedures... "high dose" in these studies is usually anything over 300mg of TE - many comparing 100, 200 and 300 mg per week. Since AAS was scheduled in '92, the medical community pretty much abandoned the notion of of AAS as a PED - many simply feared to look like a common drug dealer. Marcus has "studies" (used loosly - call it what you want) from first hand experience... but you can also look for the studies I mentioned, or even how the body grows in spurts during puberty... there is some stuff out there. Instead of leaning on Marcus, if this info looks interesting - go find it. Contradicting or supportive. Marcus tries to justify himself, but I don't think he needs to. He has presented a very interesting cycling theory that if anything, presents the simply notion of priming, to better prepare one's self for any cycle.