An article by U.S. Army Brigadier-General (R) JAMES J. DAVID-3-1-2003

[rambo]

Wow, a legitimate post. Nice.

[BOUNCER]

well its not my article its the article of a respected american army man James J. David .

Respected by who?. And is he any more respected by YOU than Gen.Higgins (USMC) who was kidnapped and executed by the Hezbollah in Beirut?.

[BOUNCER]

Wow, a legitimate post. Nice.

What makes it a legitimate post?. I've pointed out one lie and one inaccuracy.

[LM1332]

pakistan has actually been handing al-quaida terrorist over to america and other countries.

you're saying that they had close contact with the afghan regime but america had an even closer contact with the afghan regime.

don't you remeber history you're country actually armed them back in the day.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0%2C2933%2C49498%2C00.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3157366.stm
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/asiapc...istan.arrests/

Well its seems you are the one with lack of historic knolegde. Afgan was helped by USA during the Soviet occupation. So al-qaida didnt even exist then nothing existed then

[big daddy k de]

god bless USA

[Darkness]

I have to agree with this article and the main reason this happens is because again the "zionist" movement. Too many jews in the US hold and control certain aspects of the media and government. Also the fact that they're all pig rich helps. I'm catholic but I grew in PORTUGAL and we hate jews there because of what they are. There is no reason for people to be sympathetic with jews because of WWII anymore.

[BOUNCER]

I have to agree with this article and the main reason this happens is because again the "zionist" movement. Too many jews in the US hold and control certain aspects of the media and government. Also the fact that they're all pig rich helps. I'm catholic but I grew in PORTUGAL and we hate jews there because of what they are. There is no reason for people to be sympathetic with jews because of WWII anymore.

So you agree that Israel and NOT Hezbollah murdered the 254 US marines in the embassey bombing in Beirut?.

And excuse my ignorance I've never been to Portugal, but explain this;

I'm catholic but I grew in PORTUGAL and we hate jews there because of what they are..

Sounds like you hate Jews in Portugal AND the USA.

[CAUSASIAN]

So MilitiaGuy, Do Arabs that are Muslim belive in the old testament part of the bible? I guess even more specifically that part were Abraham at his wife's request slept with his Egyptian maid servant Hagar resulting in the birth of Ismael?

Isn't Abraham considered the father of all three religions, Muslim, Christian, Judaism?

And the decendents of Hagar and Ismael was the start of the Muslim population? Then Sarah had a baby named Isaac who was the basically the jewish line of decendents that the bible says God had a covenant with? Isn't it amazing that all three lines of religion start at this one point yet there is so much violence between people who are really the result of the same father, different mother's? So they are half-brothers?

Muslims belive that the Old Testament is the work of GOD, which was corruputed and changed by humans to suite their needs.

Muslims consider the Torah, Bible, Book of Psalms, and the Koran the books of GOD, the true GOD, but the Koran is the unedited and perfected word of GOD, the rest were changed by man.

And yes that story you said is true, you know, sibling rivalry is always the most bitter.

[CAUSASIAN]

GOD bless Hizbollah for being in the front lines in fighting the Zionist Enemy. The Hizbollah Youth are ready.


Americans do not realize it now, but they will realize it eventually, they have created a frankenSTEIN in Israel. Israel will stab America in its back, just like Brutus stabbed Caesar.

http://www.chretiens-et-juifs.org/cj...ge001_1637.jpg

http://taipeitimes.com/images/2001/0...406211652.jpeg

[BOUNCER]

CAUSASIAN my friend, your normally pretty level headed. Why the mad mullah act today?.

[BOUNCER]

Some more child soldiers for your pleasure..

[LM1332]

So you agree that Israel and NOT Hezbollah murdered the 254 US marines in the embassey bombing in Beirut?.

And excuse my ignorance I've never been to Portugal, but explain this;



Sounds like you hate Jews in Portugal AND the USA.

What do you call an unprovoked attack on USS Liberty that was in NEUTRAL waters and was an allie ship? What did it cause again 100+ deaths?

[BOUNCER]

What do you call an unprovoked attack on USS Liberty that was in NEUTRAL waters and was an allie ship? What did it cause again 100+ deaths?

If you knew me well enough you'd know that I really try to stick to things which I've personnally experienced. I've vast experience of military service in Lebanon. I can't comment on the USS Liberty because whenever I've tried to look into it the water's have been muddied over time.
However I'd like to know why M'guy suddenly respects an American army Brigadier-General, and I'd like to know how this ''respected'' American officer got those two things wrong which I've pointed out.

Truth; Hezbollah killed the Marines in the embassey with a suicide bomber.
Qana; he didn't tell the whole story.

[LM1332]

If you knew me well enough you'd know that I really try to stick to things which I've personnally experienced. I've vast experience of military service in Lebanon. I can't comment on the USS Liberty because whenever I've tried to look into it the water's have been muddied over time.
However I'd like to know why M'guy suddenly respects an American army Brigadier-General, and I'd like to know how this ''respected'' American officer got those two things wrong which I've pointed out.

Truth; Hezbollah killed the Marines in the embassey with a suicide bomber.
Qana; he didn't tell the whole story.

Maybe he respects him because he critizeses Israel and accuses it of criminal acts against Palestine. Its what he tried to say all along but now he has a Brigadier_General to do it for him

[Rak_Ani]

A few comments:
Regarding the USS Liberty:
We've been over this before. I never got an answer to my question what do you all think Israel was hoping to gain from this, assuming of course it knew that it was American. Another thing you might want to keep in mind, this happened during a war. In a war mistakes are made. Ask the respected General. He'll tell you.
Regarding Qana:
Bouncer, I wasn't going to say this because I wasn't sure if it was ok to, but since you have, I remember that day very well. It was a Thursday night, and what happened in Qana was what brought the end of the Grapes of Wrath operation. What you said Bouncer is the truth of what happened, and if anyone should carry the blame for it it's the UN for not keeping Hizballa away, and Hizballa for using children as shields. Israel has a right and an obligation to protect it's citizens.
The crap about Israel having known about the 911 attack before it happened is nonsense. How many Jews and Israelis died that day, does anyone here know? A lot. I remember getting the list of missing Israelis by email, asking anyone who knows anything about any of the listed names to contact the authorities.
Regarding the American support of Israel, a friend of mine is an officer in the US airforce. I asked him some time ago what if supporting Israel no longer serves the American interest, and what if the Jewish Lobby gets weak. He said that a large part of the support for Israel comes from the Christian organizations and that one of the main reasons for this American support is religious. He said most Americans are Christians and for religious reasons believe Israel needs to exist and be protected.
M'guy, FYI, Zionism isn't an organization.
LM1332, I'd love to hear from you an answer to my first question regarding USS Liberty.

[Rak_Ani]

Maybe he respects him because he critizeses Israel and accuses it of criminal acts against Palestine. Its what he tried to say all along but now he has a Brigadier_General to do it for him

The Brigadier General (Bouncer, what does that equivlant in the Israeli ranking system?) doesn't stick to facts in his article, and therefore his credibility is lost. Facts are very important when you discuss an issue like this, and it's very easy to prove you wrong when you twist them. If anyone wants to gain my respect they should first of all be honest and know what they're talking about. This guy is neither, and the example Bouncer gave proves it. Both Bouncer and I have first hand memories of what happened in Qana. Hell, I even remember what day it was. We can both prove the guy is neither honest nor does he show any kind of attempt to do a minimal analysis of things in order to get a better understanding of it. He doesn't know what he's talking about and we both proved it. Keeping that in mind, I don't think he deserves respect. What do you think?

[sp9]

Muslims belive that the Old Testament is the work of GOD, which was corruputed and changed by humans to suite their needs.

Muslims consider the Torah, Bible, Book of Psalms, and the Koran the books of GOD, the true GOD, but the Koran is the unedited and perfected word of GOD, the rest were changed by man.

And yes that story you said is true, you know, sibling rivalry is always the most bitter.

Thanks for the reply. Things are complicated. Lots of hatred. We might not be the same religion but I bet we both believe all this violence won't stop until the true God returns someday!

I wonder what would happen if all the participants on this thread were sitting in a room together? Would things remain civil?

"And I am come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up out of that land unto a good land and a large, unto a land flowing with milk and honey: unto the place of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites."

-- Exodus 3: 8

Basically telling Moses he will bring him to Palestine the land promised to Abraham? (Genesis 12) and then onto Jacob from Isaac (Genesis 28)?

Very interesting so do Muslims believe that man, specifically Jewish people changed genesis to favor Jewish people and exclude his other son from Hagar?

Whats even more interesting is that Hagar is promised innumerable children and actually the only women in all of Hebrew scripture to receive personally the divine blessing of decendents. She is also the only person in the Hebrew bible to ever call God by name.

And she is the start of the decendents that are the Islamic population. Hmm.

[LM1332]

A few comments:
Regarding the USS Liberty:
We've been over this before. I never got an answer to my question what do you all think Israel was hoping to gain from this, assuming of course it knew that it was American. Another thing you might want to keep in mind, this happened during a war. In a war mistakes are made. Ask the respected General. He'll tell you.
LM1332, I'd love to hear from you an answer to my first question regarding USS Liberty.

Israel knew perfectly well that the ship was American. After all, the Liberty's American flag and markings were in full view in perfect visibility for the Israeli aircraft that overflew the ship eight times over a period of nearly eight hours prior to the attack. I am confident that Israel knew the Liberty could intercept radio messages from all parties and potential parties to the ongoing war, then in its fourth day, and that Israel was preparing to seize the Golan Heights from Syria despite President Johnson's known opposition to such a move. I think they realized that if USA learned in advance of their plan, there would be a tremendous amount of negotiating between Tel Aviv and Washington. And I believe Moshe Dayan concluded that he could prevent Washington from becoming aware of what Israel was up to by destroying the primary source of acquiring that information the USS Liberty. The result was a wanton sneak attack that left 34 American sailors dead and 171 seriously injured. What is so chilling and cold-blooded, of course, is that they could kill as many Americans as they did in confidence that Washington would cooperate in quelling any public outcry.

[LM1332]

The Brigadier General (Bouncer, what does that equivlant in the Israeli ranking system?) doesn't stick to facts in his article, and therefore his credibility is lost. Facts are very important when you discuss an issue like this, and it's very easy to prove you wrong when you twist them. If anyone wants to gain my respect they should first of all be honest and know what they're talking about. This guy is neither, and the example Bouncer gave proves it. Both Bouncer and I have first hand memories of what happened in Qana. Hell, I even remember what day it was. We can both prove the guy is neither honest nor does he show any kind of attempt to do a minimal analysis of things in order to get a better understanding of it. He doesn't know what he's talking about and we both proved it. Keeping that in mind, I don't think he deserves respect. What do you think?

Brigadier General is someone above colonel and below major general position. So a general but not quite.

Unfortunatly i do not know much about this topic there for i cant really answer the question. I can bs threw it but why? its not gonna do anything good and i dont want this to be another "I dont know what i am talking about but ill still say something" thread

[MilitiaGuy]

Israel knew perfectly well that the ship was American. After all, the Liberty's American flag and markings were in full view in perfect visibility for the Israeli aircraft that overflew the ship eight times over a period of nearly eight hours prior to the attack. I am confident that Israel knew the Liberty could intercept radio messages from all parties and potential parties to the ongoing war, then in its fourth day, and that Israel was preparing to seize the Golan Heights from Syria despite President Johnson's known opposition to such a move. I think they realized that if USA learned in advance of their plan, there would be a tremendous amount of negotiating between Tel Aviv and Washington. And I believe Moshe Dayan concluded that he could prevent Washington from becoming aware of what Israel was up to by destroying the primary source of acquiring that information the USS Liberty. The result was a wanton sneak attack that left 34 American sailors dead and 171 seriously injured. What is so chilling and cold-blooded, of course, is that they could kill as many Americans as they did in confidence that Washington would cooperate in quelling any public outcry.

nice ,smart reply

[CAUSASIAN]

Thanks for the reply. Things are complicated. Lots of hatred. We might not be the same religion but I bet we both believe all this violence won't stop until the true God returns someday!

Well, Muslims belive Jesus not GOD will come down on the Day of Judgement along with the Amir, who will be a military leader. There are different accounts as to where Jesus will return from, but from what I have read it is either Syria or Saudi Arabia. Islamic Scholars might know more on that.

Very interesting so do Muslims believe that man, specifically Jewish people changed genesis to favor Jewish people and exclude his other son from Hagar?

Well Muslims belive all the works, like the Bible, First Testament, and the Book of Psalms are all GOD's work, but no one really knows what humans have changed and what they havent, only GOD know.

Whats even more interesting is that Hagar is promised innumerable children and actually the only women in all of Hebrew scripture to receive personally the divine blessing of decendents. She is also the only person in the Hebrew bible to ever call God by name.

And she is the start of the decendents that are the Islamic population. Hmm.

Interesting, I didnt know that. The Koran challanges a Muslim to read the Torah and the Bible, and recommends it. I have read parts of the Bible, and hope to read the whole book some day.

[CAUSASIAN]

Although I am not a conspiracy theorist, there is much more information about the 9/11 attacks and Israeli knowledge and involvement that the world doesnt know about.

Read this, straight from ABC News that was not covered extensively.

_________________________________________

The White Van
Were Israelis Detained on Sept. 11 Spies?


June 21 — Millions saw the horrific images of the World Trade Center attacks, and those who saw them won't forget them. But a New Jersey homemaker saw something that morning that prompted an investigation into five young Israelis and their possible connection to Israeli intelligence.

Maria, who asked us not to use her last name, had a view of the World Trade Center from her New Jersey apartment building. She remembers a neighbor calling her shortly after the first plane hit the towers.
She grabbed her binoculars and watched the destruction unfolding in lower Manhattan. But as she watched the disaster, something else caught her eye.

Maria says she saw three young men kneeling on the roof of a white van in the parking lot of her apartment building. "They seemed to be taking a movie," Maria said.

The men were taking video or photos of themselves with the World Trade Center burning in the background, she said. What struck Maria were the expressions on the men's faces. "They were like happy, you know … They didn't look shocked to me. I thought it was very strange," she said.

She found the behavior so suspicious that she wrote down the license plate number of the van and called the police. Before long, the FBI was also on the scene, and a statewide bulletin was issued on the van.

The plate number was traced to a van owned by a company called Urban Moving. Around 4 p.m. on Sept. 11, the van was spotted on a service road off Route 3, near New Jersey's Giants Stadium. A police officer pulled the van over, finding five men, between 22 and 27 years old, in the vehicle. The men were taken out of the van at gunpoint and handcuffed by police.

The arresting officers said they saw a lot that aroused their suspicion about the men. One of the passengers had $4,700 in cash hidden in his sock. Another was carrying two foreign passports. A box cutter was found in the van. But perhaps the biggest surprise for the officers came when the five men identified themselves as Israeli citizens.


‘We Are Not Your Problem’

According to the police report, one of the passengers told the officers they had been on the West Side Highway in Manhattan "during the incident" — referring to the World Trade Center attack. The driver of the van, Sivan Kurzberg, told the officers, "We are Israeli. We are not your problem. Your problems are our problems. The Palestinians are the problem." The other passengers were his brother Paul Kurzberg, Yaron Shmuel, Oded Ellner and Omer Marmari.

When the men were transferred to jail, the case was transferred out of the FBI's Criminal Division, and into the bureau's Foreign Counterintelligence Section, which is responsible for espionage cases, ABCNEWS has learned.

One reason for the shift, sources told ABCNEWS, was that the FBI believed Urban Moving may have been providing cover for an Israeli intelligence operation.

After the five men were arrested, the FBI got a warrant and searched Urban Moving's Weehawken, N.J., offices.

The FBI searched Urban Moving's offices for several hours, removing boxes of documents and a dozen computer hard drives. The FBI also questioned Urban Moving's owner. His attorney insists that his client answered all of the FBI's questions. But when FBI agents tried to interview him again a few days later, he was gone.

Three months later 2020's cameras photographed the inside of Urban Moving, and it looked as if the business had been shut down in a big hurry. Cell phones were lying around; office phones were still connected; and the property of dozens of clients remained in the warehouse.

The owner had also cleared out of his New Jersey home, put it up for sale and returned with his family to Israel.


‘A Scary Situation’

Steven Gordon, the attorney for the five Israeli detainees, acknowledged that his clients' actions on Sept. 11 would easily have aroused suspicions. "You got a group of guys that are taking pictures, on top of a roof, of the World Trade Center. They're speaking in a foreign language. They got two passports on 'em. One's got a wad of cash on him, and they got box cutters. Now that's a scary situation."

But Gordon insisted that his clients were just five young men who had come to America for a vacation, ended up working for a moving company, and were taking pictures of the event.

The five Israelis were held at the Metropolitan Detention Center in Brooklyn, ostensibly for overstaying their tourist visas and working in the United States illegally. Two weeks after their arrest, an immigration judge ordered them to be deported. But sources told ABCNEWS that FBI and CIA officials in Washington put a hold on the case.

The five men were held in detention for more than two months. Some of them were placed in solitary confinement for 40 days, and some of them were given as many as seven lie-detector tests.


Plenty of Speculation

Since their arrest, plenty of speculation has swirled about the case, and what the five men were doing that morning. Eventually, The Forward, a respected Jewish newspaper in New York, reported the FBI concluded that two of the men were Israeli intelligence operatives.

Vince Cannistraro, a former chief of operations for counterterrorism with the CIA who is now a consultant for ABCNEWS, said federal authorities' interest in the case was heightened when some of the men's names were found in a search of a national intelligence database.


Israeli Intelligence Connection?

According to Cannistraro, many people in the U.S. intelligence community believed that some of the men arrested were working for Israeli intelligence. Cannistraro said there was speculation as to whether Urban Moving had been "set up or exploited for the purpose of launching an intelligence operation against radical Islamists in the area, particularly in the New Jersey-New York area."

Under this scenario, the alleged spying operation was not aimed against the United States, but at penetrating or monitoring radical fund-raising and support networks in Muslim communities like Paterson, N.J., which was one of the places where several of the hijackers lived in the months prior to Sept. 11.

For the FBI, deciphering the truth from the five Israelis proved to be difficult. One of them, Paul Kurzberg, refused to take a lie-detector test for 10 weeks — then failed it, according to his lawyer. Another of his lawyers told us Kurzberg had been reluctant to take the test because he had once worked for Israeli intelligence in another country.

Sources say the Israelis were targeting these fund-raising networks because they were thought to be channeling money to Hamas and Islamic Jihad, groups that are responsible for most of the suicide bombings in Israel. "[The] Israeli government has been very concerned about the activity of radical Islamic groups in the United States that could be a support apparatus to Hamas and Islamic Jihad," Cannistraro said.

The men denied that they had been working for Israeli intelligence out of the New Jersey moving company, and Ram Horvitz, their Israeli attorney, dismissed the allegations as "stupid and ridiculous."

Mark Regev, the spokesman for the Israeli Embassy in Washington, goes even further, asserting the issue was never even discussed with U.S. officials.

"These five men were not involved in any intelligence operation in the United States, and the American intelligence authorities have never raised this issue with us," Regev said. "The story is simply false."


No ‘Pre-Knowledge’

Despite the denials, sources tell ABCNEWS there is still debate within the FBI over whether or not the young men were spies. Many U.S. government officials still believe that some of them were on a mission for Israeli intelligence. But the FBI told ABCNEWS, "To date, this investigation has not identified anybody who in this country had pre-knowledge of the events of 9/11."

Sources also said that even if the men were spies, there is no evidence to conclude they had advance knowledge of the terrorist attacks on Sept. 11. The investigation, at the end of the day, after all the polygraphs, all of the field work, all the cross-checking, the intelligence work, concluded that they probably did not have advance knowledge of 9/11," Cannistraro noted.

As to what they were doing on the van, they say they read about the attack on the Internet, couldn't see it from their offices and went to the parking lot for a better view. But no one has been able to find a good explanation for why they may have been smiling with the towers of the World Trade Center burning in the background. Both the lawyers for the young men and the Israeli Embassy chalk it up to immature conduct.

According to ABCNEWS sources, Israeli and U.S. government officials worked out a deal — and after 71 days, the five Israelis were taken out of jail, put on a plane, and deported back home.

While the former detainees refused to answer ABCNEWS' questions about their detention and what they were doing on Sept. 11, several of the detainees discussed their experience in America on an Israeli talk show after their return home.

Said one of the men, denying that they were laughing or happy on the morning of Sept. 11, "The fact of the matter is we are coming from a country that experiences terror daily. Our purpose was to document the event."

ABCNEWS' Chris Isham, John Miller, Glenn Silber and Chris Vlasto contributed to this report.

________________________________________

Mossads motto is "War through Deception", I will tell Americans, there is much more to the 9/11 saga, many people dont know about.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/2020/...an_020621.html

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/2020/...an_020621.html

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/2020/...an_020621.html

[Rak_Ani]

Israel knew perfectly well that the ship was American. After all, the Liberty's American flag and markings were in full view in perfect visibility for the Israeli aircraft that overflew the ship eight times over a period of nearly eight hours prior to the attack. I am confident that Israel knew the Liberty could intercept radio messages from all parties and potential parties to the ongoing war, then in its fourth day, and that Israel was preparing to seize the Golan Heights from Syria despite President Johnson's known opposition to such a move. I think they realized that if USA learned in advance of their plan, there would be a tremendous amount of negotiating between Tel Aviv and Washington. And I believe Moshe Dayan concluded that he could prevent Washington from becoming aware of what Israel was up to by destroying the primary source of acquiring that information the USS Liberty. The result was a wanton sneak attack that left 34 American sailors dead and 171 seriously injured. What is so chilling and cold-blooded, of course, is that they could kill as many Americans as they did in confidence that Washington would cooperate in quelling any public outcry.

So let me see if I get this right. You think that because Israel didn't feel like arguing with the Americans over the Golan, the army decided to just kill some American soldiers? And by doing that, in your opinion, did Israel think it would avoid arguments and disputes with the Americans over something else, like, lets say, targeting American soldiers? Doesn't it seem more logical to you that there was actually a mistake made, as so many are made in wars? Does it seem reasonable to you that Israel would attack it's biggest ally just for the sake of avoiding an argument? And in your opinion, do you think Israel actually believed it could hide the fact it took over the Golan from the US president, or anyone else for that matter? Has it ever passed your mind that maybe Liberty didn't want it to be all that clear that it's American since it was a spy ship?

BTW, FYI, everything Israel does passes through the White House, especially when done in a time of war.

[Rak_Ani]

Brigadier General is someone above colonel and below major general position. So a general but not quite.

Unfortunatly i do not know much about this topic there for i cant really answer the question. I can bs threw it but why? its not gonna do anything good and i dont want this to be another "I dont know what i am talking about but ill still say something" thread

Actually I was wondering if Bouncer, or anyone else knew what is the equivelant rank in the IDF. Since Bouncer knows the IDF I thought he might know. The only ones I know are private, corporal, and sergeant. Above that I don't know.

[sp9]

Actually I was wondering if Bouncer, or anyone else knew what is the equivelant rank in the IDF. Since Bouncer knows the IDF I thought he might know. The only ones I know are private, corporal, and sergeant. Above that I don't know.

Here are the IDF ranks (They have a Brigadier General). You can also find their citations/medals at their site:

Ranks:

http://www1.idf.il/DOVER/site/mainpa...2&bScope=False

Citations/Medals:

http://www1.idf.il/DOVER/site/mainpa...3&bScope=False

[Rak_Ani]

Here are the IDF ranks (They have a Brigadier General). You can also find their citations/medals at their site:

Ranks:

http://www1.idf.il/DOVER/site/mainpa...2&bScope=False

Citations/Medals:

http://www1.idf.il/DOVER/site/mainpa...3&bScope=False

Thanks for the links. That's a pretty high rank....

[LM1332]

So let me see if I get this right. You think that because Israel didn't feel like arguing with the Americans over the Golan, the army decided to just kill some American soldiers? And by doing that, in your opinion, did Israel think it would avoid arguments and disputes with the Americans over something else, like, lets say, targeting American soldiers? Doesn't it seem more logical to you that there was actually a mistake made, as so many are made in wars? Does it seem reasonable to you that Israel would attack it's biggest ally just for the sake of avoiding an argument? And in your opinion, do you think Israel actually believed it could hide the fact it took over the Golan from the US president, or anyone else for that matter? Has it ever passed your mind that maybe Liberty didn't want it to be all that clear that it's American since it was a spy ship?

BTW, FYI, everything Israel does passes through the White House, especially when done in a time of war.

So the torpedo boats that came within 50 feet of the ship, couldn't see the American flag on the mast, couldn't see the words "USS LIBERTY" on the stern, couldn't see anything? The boats shot at American sailors on the deck of the Liberty as the sailors tried to help one another. As life rafts were put in the water by Liberty sailors in preparation for abandoning the ship, the boats shot them up. One boat pulled one out of the water and took it on board. Didn't see the words "U. S. NAVY" stenciled on it?

[LM1332]

Before moving on to the next post read this. And what is most interesting part of this post is that he died a month later after he made his column public. The cause of death was not disclosed
In tribute & Memory of
Admiral Thomas H. Moorer, (ret)
1912 - Feb 5, 2004

Portland, Or. February 6, 2004: America lost a great hero yesterday, retired Admiral Thomas H. Moorer. A graduate of the US Naval Academy in Annapolis, his military career began in 1933 with an ensign's rank. In 1941, as a member of the Pacific Air Fleet 10, he survived the attack on Pearl Harbor.


Feisty, forthright and always an American first, the passing of Admiral Thomas H. Moorer will be felt for many years to come




During the 1950's he achieved the rank of Rear Admiral under the Eisenhower Administration, serving in the Korea War. In 1964 he became the Commander of the Pacific Fleet during Viet Nam; in 1965 he assumed the helm of NATO's allied command, the U.S. Unified Atlantic Command and the U.S. Atlantic Fleet. and later Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff from 1970-1974.

Admiral Moorer, born in Alabama in 1912, died February 5th, 2004 at the National Naval Medical Center in Bethesda, Maryland. He was 91 years of age and leaves a wife, three sons and a daughter.

The cause of death was not disclosed.

Hardly a retirement wallflower, Admiral Moorer combined forces with several politically powerful retired officers to continue addressing concerns in the military. He used his retirement to assist in educating Americans about military policy and political policy commenting on everything from the Tailhook to the Carter Administration's kowtowing to Castro. Moorer maintained an outspoken advocacy against giving away the Panama Canal and vigilantly fought to keep Soviet Union in check during the Cold War. TOP

Feisty and forceful to the end, Moorer's final public statement of January 9, 2004 (below) took on the unspoken US double standard, daring to bring up the inequities, loyalties to a favored nation and treatment of the USS Liberty and its survivors, stirring up the usual hornet's nest of protests from Israel Firster's in the United States. Moorer, as with anyone who questions this policy, received the moniker of "anti-Semitic" for making the statement below. A true defender of the US, its principles and its people, he refused to cave to the slander/libel intimidation tactics of Washington's most powerful special interest lobby.

As with most accusations of anti-Semitism, there is nothing anti-Semitic about his statement or the act of asking Congress, the White House and Senate to take care of its own, Americans, first before bowing to the agenda and cultivated vanity of a foreign power. Moorer's great legacy to America illustrates the measure of a leader and a true patriot, someone willing to go against fastidiously molded public opinion and foreign lobbies, despite threats and maintain an advocacy of honoring the needs and interests of his country before all others.

The death of Admiral Thomas Moorer leaves a vacancy within forceful activism toward US values and true patriotism, advocating for due recognition and respect for all of those who have given their lives defending and upholding the Constitution of the United States of America, while defending its borders, principles and freedoms. His voice, conviction, advocacy and energy will be sorely missed and his stand for American patriotism as legacy emulated, a prophetic and positive direction for us all

[LM1332]

From the Jan. 16, 2004, edition of the Stars and Stripes
--------------------------------------------------------

A FAIR PROBE WOULD ATTACK LIBERTY MISINFORMATION
by Thomas Moorer

While State Department officials and historians converge on
Washington this week to discuss the 1967 war in the
Middle East, I am compelled to speak out about one of U.S.
history's most shocking cover-ups.

On June 8, 1967, Israel attacked our proud naval ship -- the USS
Liberty -- killing 34 American servicemen and wounding 172.
Those men were then betrayed and left to die by our own
government.

U.S. military rescue aircraft were recalled -- not once, but
twice -- through direct intervention by the Johnson
administration. Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara's
cancellation of the Navy's attempt to rescue the Liberty, which
I confirmed from the commanders of the aircraft carriers America
and Saratoga, was the most disgraceful act I witnessed in my
entire military career.

To add insult to injury, Congress, to this day, has failed to
hold formal hearings on Israel's attack on this American ship.
No official investigation of the attack has ever permitted
the testimony of the surviving crew members.

A 1967 investigation by the Navy, upon which all other reports
are based, has now been fully discredited as a cover-up by its
senior attorney. Capt. Ward Boston, in a sworn affidavit,
recently revealed that the court was ordered by the White House
to cover up the incident and find that Israel's attack was "a
case of mistaken identity."

Some distinguished colleagues and I formed an independent
commission to investigate the attack on the USS Liberty. After
an exhaustive review of previous reports, naval and other
military records, including eyewitness testimony from survivors,
we recently presented our findings on Capitol Hill. They
include:

* Israeli reconnaissance aircraft closely studied the Liberty
during an eight-hour period prior to the attack, one flying
within 200 feet of the ship. Weather reports confirm the day was
clear with unlimited visibility. The Liberty was a clearly
marked American ship in international waters, flying an American
flag and carrying large U.S. Navy hull letters and numbers on
its bow.

* Despite claims by Israeli intelligence that they confused the
Liberty with a small Egyptian transport, the Liberty was
conspicuously different from any vessel in the Egyptian navy. It
was the most sophisticated intelligence ship in the world in
1967. With its massive radio antennae, including a large
satellite dish, it looked like a large lobster and was one of
the most easily identifiable ships afloat.

* Israel attempted to prevent the Liberty's radio operators from
sending a call for help by jamming American emergency radio
channels.

* Israeli torpedo boats machine-gunned lifeboats at close range
that had been lowered to rescue the most-seriously wounded.

As a result, our commission concluded that:

* There is compelling evidence that Israel's attack was a
deliberate attempt to destroy an American ship and kill her
entire crew.

* In attacking the USS Liberty, Israel committed acts of murder
against U.S. servicemen and an act of war against the United
States.

* The White House knowingly covered up the facts of this attack
from the American people.

* The truth continues to be concealed to the present day in what
can only be termed a national disgrace.

What was Israel's motive in launching this attack? Congress must
address this question with full cooperation from the National
Security Agency, the CIA and the military intelligence services.

The men of the USS Liberty represented the United States. They
were attacked for two hours, causing 70 percent of American
casualties, and the eventual loss of our best intelligence ship.

These sailors and Marines were entitled to our best defense. We
gave them no defense.

Did our government put Israel's interests ahead of our own? If
so, why? Does our government continue to subordinate American
interests to Israeli interests? These are important questions
that should be investigated by an independent, fully empowered
commission of the American government.

[Darkness]

So you agree that Israel and NOT Hezbollah murdered the 254 US marines in the embassey bombing in Beirut?.

I didnt say that.

Sounds like you hate Jews in Portugal AND the USA.

Sounds right.

[BOUNCER]

Why do you hate Jews?

[chicamahomico]

How come you don't care that he hates Portugal?

Why do you hate Jews?

[tbrocato]

Why not give the full story. I was serving in Lebanon at the time.
.

Bouncer what branch did you serve in ?

[BOUNCER]

Bouncer what branch did you serve in ?

Infantry, and I'm still serving. 19 yrs and counting!.

[Cycleon]

Muslims belive that the Old Testament is the work of GOD, which was corruputed and changed by humans to suite their needs.

Muslims consider the Torah, Bible, Book of Psalms, and the Koran the books of GOD, the true GOD, but the Koran is the unedited and perfected word of GOD, the rest were changed by man.

When exactly do muslims or Islamic scholars believe that the Old testament or the gospels were changed? Obviously, Mohammad and his followers had seen a copies for himself and never mentioned that it was corrupted in his time so it was presumably changed afterward - I am just wondering during what period that they deem this to have happened?

and while you are at it, you might explain why the peace loving Mohammad and his group did what they did to Abu Afak and Asma Bint Marwan simply because they made satirical poems about him

[Rak_Ani]

From the Jan. 16, 2004, edition of the Stars and Stripes
--------------------------------------------------------

A FAIR PROBE WOULD ATTACK LIBERTY MISINFORMATION
by Thomas Moorer

While State Department officials and historians converge on
Washington this week to discuss the 1967 war in the
Middle East, I am compelled to speak out about one of U.S.
history's most shocking cover-ups.

On June 8, 1967, Israel attacked our proud naval ship -- the USS
Liberty -- killing 34 American servicemen and wounding 172.
Those men were then betrayed and left to die by our own
government.

U.S. military rescue aircraft were recalled -- not once, but
twice -- through direct intervention by the Johnson
administration. Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara's
cancellation of the Navy's attempt to rescue the Liberty, which
I confirmed from the commanders of the aircraft carriers America
and Saratoga, was the most disgraceful act I witnessed in my
entire military career.

To add insult to injury, Congress, to this day, has failed to
hold formal hearings on Israel's attack on this American ship.
No official investigation of the attack has ever permitted
the testimony of the surviving crew members.

A 1967 investigation by the Navy, upon which all other reports
are based, has now been fully discredited as a cover-up by its
senior attorney. Capt. Ward Boston, in a sworn affidavit,
recently revealed that the court was ordered by the White House
to cover up the incident and find that Israel's attack was "a
case of mistaken identity."

Some distinguished colleagues and I formed an independent
commission to investigate the attack on the USS Liberty. After
an exhaustive review of previous reports, naval and other
military records, including eyewitness testimony from survivors,
we recently presented our findings on Capitol Hill. They
include:

* Israeli reconnaissance aircraft closely studied the Liberty
during an eight-hour period prior to the attack, one flying
within 200 feet of the ship. Weather reports confirm the day was
clear with unlimited visibility. The Liberty was a clearly
marked American ship in international waters, flying an American
flag and carrying large U.S. Navy hull letters and numbers on
its bow.

* Despite claims by Israeli intelligence that they confused the
Liberty with a small Egyptian transport, the Liberty was
conspicuously different from any vessel in the Egyptian navy. It
was the most sophisticated intelligence ship in the world in
1967. With its massive radio antennae, including a large
satellite dish, it looked like a large lobster and was one of
the most easily identifiable ships afloat.

* Israel attempted to prevent the Liberty's radio operators from
sending a call for help by jamming American emergency radio
channels.

* Israeli torpedo boats machine-gunned lifeboats at close range
that had been lowered to rescue the most-seriously wounded.

As a result, our commission concluded that:

* There is compelling evidence that Israel's attack was a
deliberate attempt to destroy an American ship and kill her
entire crew.

* In attacking the USS Liberty, Israel committed acts of murder
against U.S. servicemen and an act of war against the United
States.

* The White House knowingly covered up the facts of this attack
from the American people.

* The truth continues to be concealed to the present day in what
can only be termed a national disgrace.

What was Israel's motive in launching this attack? Congress must
address this question with full cooperation from the National
Security Agency, the CIA and the military intelligence services.

The men of the USS Liberty represented the United States. They
were attacked for two hours, causing 70 percent of American
casualties, and the eventual loss of our best intelligence ship.

These sailors and Marines were entitled to our best defense. We
gave them no defense.

Did our government put Israel's interests ahead of our own? If
so, why? Does our government continue to subordinate American
interests to Israeli interests? These are important questions
that should be investigated by an independent, fully empowered
commission of the American government.

Visit this link: http://www.thelibertyincident.com/index.htm

You haven't replied to the questions I asked you, but rather tried to convince me you're right by showing me something someone wrote (and speaking of the mysterious reason for his death...how old was he?). For every one who says it was intentional, there will be one who says it wasn't. They will both have very convincing arguments. The idea is not to depend on what someone else says, but to try and understand it yourself. Now, other than the fact Israel didn't have any real motive for this, by purposely doing so it would have shot itself in the leg. Other than that what you might want to be asking is why was the US spy ship in a war zone of someone else's war, and was it possible that an Egyptian ship would use an American flag in order to confuse the Israelis. And going back to my question about the possibility of mistakes during war, if you have any friends who fought in the first gulf war, you might want to ask them about the American mistakes. If they're honest they'll tell you. Everyone makes mistakes. Why didn't the Liberty identify itself when called to do so by the Israeli forces (three times)? That too is a mistake.

[BOUNCER]

Visit this link: [url]if you have any friends who fought in the first gulf war, you might want to ask them about the American mistakes. If they're honest they'll tell you.

Fact is the Americans killed more British during Gulf war I. They shot an Eypgtian airliner out of the sky around the same time too if memory serves me correct. In Kosovo they blew the sh*t out of the Chinese embassey. In Afghanistan they've killed more Canadians than the Taliban. And in the present Gulf War they've killed almost as many British again as the Iraqi's etc etc etc.. Like you said, in war mistakes happen. Its tough, its horrible, but they happen. I'm not levelling blaim at America, it happens to all armies, war is a complicated business.

[Red Ketchup]

Fact is the Americans killed more British during Gulf war I. They shot an Eypgtian airliner out of the sky around the same time too if memory serves me correct. In Kosovo they blew the sh*t out of the Chinese embassey. In Afghanistan they've killed more Canadians than the Taliban. And in the present Gulf War they've killed almost as many British again as the Iraqi's etc etc etc..

Lets not forget Pat Tillman

The investigation in his death is pointing at "friendly fire"...

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articl...tillman29.html

Red

[LM1332]

Visit this link: http://www.thelibertyincident.com/index.htm

You haven't replied to the questions I asked you, but rather tried to convince me you're right by showing me something someone wrote (and speaking of the mysterious reason for his death...how old was he?). For every one who says it was intentional, there will be one who says it wasn't. They will both have very convincing arguments. The idea is not to depend on what someone else says, but to try and understand it yourself. Now, other than the fact Israel didn't have any real motive for this, by purposely doing so it would have shot itself in the leg. Other than that what you might want to be asking is why was the US spy ship in a war zone of someone else's war, and was it possible that an Egyptian ship would use an American flag in order to confuse the Israelis. And going back to my question about the possibility of mistakes during war, if you have any friends who fought in the first gulf war, you might want to ask them about the American mistakes. If they're honest they'll tell you. Everyone makes mistakes. Why didn't the Liberty identify itself when called to do so by the Israeli forces (three times)? That too is a mistake.

The fact of the matter is that we would never know what really happened and we probably will never know. Because if we did know there would be an outcry for justice among citizen. As for mistaken identity let me repeat what I said. """So the torpedo boats that came within 50 feet of the ship, couldn't see the American flag on the mast, couldn't see the words "USS LIBERTY" on the stern, couldn't see anything? The boats shot at American sailors on the deck of the Liberty as the sailors tried to help one another. As life rafts were put in the water by Liberty sailors in preparation for abandoning the ship, the boats shot them up. One boat pulled one out of the water and took it on board. Didn't see the words "U. S. NAVY" stenciled on it? They couldn’t distinguish between a White Person and an Egyptian?"" And identify they don’t have to they are in Neutral Waters and not threatening anyone! Last time I checked neutral waters are neutral waters and not a war zone. They were monitoring transmissions between enemies commanders and it just so happened they picked up Israeli transmissions as well which should be fine considering USA and Israel are allies?!

I mean we can debate this till our fingers fall until children of our children will have children of their own the point is we will never know.

[3Vandoo]

Why Israel are selling high tech military equipment to China?

Oh wait, I have my answer, the cia asked them

sorry my bad