Nostalgia...

[magic32]

For those who were there...CLASSIC MIKE:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=NseKug63naM
http://youtube.com/watch?v=45mMioJ5szc&feature=related
http://youtube.com/watch?v=_oACRt-Qp-s&feature=related
http://youtube.com/watch?v=IpfzaqIuR34&feature=related
http://youtube.com/watch?v=b0AGiq9j_Ak&feature=related
http://youtube.com/watch?v=C2t7l_hhEyQ&feature=related

[MuscleScience]

I remember my friends that had cable taping the bulls games the night before so those of us that didnt could all get together after school and watch them. And then the next day at school we would all talk about games that were two or three days old like it was the big event the night before. LOL

[BG]

Very cool!

I could have dunked....you should have.

[Beefkake31]

So when are we starting a good old Kobe vs. MJ debate lol.

[l2elapse]

So when are we starting a good old Kobe vs. MJ debate lol.

i wanna start this as well

[wilson9d]

So when are we starting a good old Kobe vs. MJ debate lol.

There is no debate every generation has it own great athlete. Michael Jordan was the greatest athlete of my generation. Certain athletes transcend their sport and affect all other sports and affect our culture. Kobe has not changed the face of our culture. Athletes like Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods, Muhammad Ali, and Jackie Robinson have.

[Beefkake31]

There is no debate every generation has it own great athlete. Michael Jordan was the greatest athlete of my generation. Certain athletes transcend their sport and affect all other sports and affect our culture. Kobe has not changed the face of our culture. Athletes like Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods, Muhammad Ali, and Jackie Robinson have.

You said there is no debate since they are different generations but then went on to say Jordan has changed the face of our culture (btw explain how if you can) but Kobe isn't even done with his career yet so you can't say that.

And I'm in the middle of the generations so I've watched Jordan in his prime and now watching Kobe. As to who is the better overall player, that will be determined when Kobe is done with his career and IMO how many more rings he can get. But I will say Kobe does amaze me more offensively for the things he does and pulls off.

And btw, speaking of current players, I hate how people try to compare Kobe and Lebron and some say Lebron is better. It's like ya maybe this year his numbers are better by 2 in pts ass and reb but it's not all about the numbers. Kobe is a way better pure shooter, way more clutch, and most importantly the thing everyone overlooks for a good overall player......DEFENSE. So while they're both amazing on offense, you have to have both sides, and while Lebron is average on defense , Kobe is NBA all first team on defense all the time. Anyway IMO you can already predict Kobe , Lebron, and Jordan will be the TOP 3 of all time for a while to come until some young new amazing talent comes in the next few years.

[wilson9d]

(btw explain how if you can)

http://www.nba.com/jordan/hoop_oneforages.html

[magic32]

There is no debate every generation has it own great athlete. Michael Jordan was the greatest athlete of my generation. Certain athletes transcend their sport and affect all other sports and affect our culture. Kobe has not changed the face of our culture. Athletes like Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods, Muhammad Ali, and Jackie Robinson have.

Not sure what you mean by these comments.

Obviously JR broke the color barrier (though someone had to), and Ali had the Islamic conversion and military avoidance issue, but as for actual culture and other sports...you'll need to elaborate.

As cited in other posts Kobe, as good as he is, isn't head and shoulders above his contemporaries i.e. Lebron, T-Mac, Nash (consecutive MVPs), D. Wade, Iverson, KG, etc.
-----------
Beefkake made an interesting point. Since Mike's retirement announcement, fans have been seeking an heir apparent. In response to your question, G. Hill and Penny although once throne contenders both succumbed to injury, as did Prince Vince though his return was more prominent.

I believe the closest we have is not Kobe, especially due to his recent debauchery in Eagle, CO but rather James and Wade. Both are supremely talented team and individual oriented, relatively clean cut and thus marketable, and the former is becoming more elite with each passing season. He even made the cover of Vogue recently, a feat only two other men (Gere and Clooney) have attained, the cover of SI as a H.S. junior, currently one of 11 athletes appearing on the cover of ESPN The Magazine's 10th anniversary issue, hosted SNL, etc.

There will and simply couldn't ever be another MJ!!!
As I stated above, no one has elevated to Mike’s level as dictated by:

• Fan draw / consistently sold out road games
• Marketing popularity, with a staggering number of endorsements that could NEVER be duplicated. We really can just stop with Nike, but rent "Space Jam" for a run down.
• Near iconic fame, usurping Ali, in that his images (Jumpman & bust) are recognized worldwide.
  
• And let us not forget actual performance:
  Rookie of the Year; Five-time NBA MVP; Six-time NBA champion; Six-time NBA Finals MVP; Ten-time All-NBA First Team; Nine time NBA All-Defensive First Team; Defensive Player of the Year; 14-time NBA All-Star; Three-time NBA All-Star MVP; 50th Anniversary All-Time Team; Ten scoring titles -- an NBA record and seven consecutive matching Wilt Chamberlain; Retired with the NBA's highest scoring average of 30.1ppg.

http://www.nba.com/history/players/jordan_bio.html

Jordan and Kobe comparison?
Only in style of play, else you can't be serious!

[Beefkake31]

As cited in other posts Kobe, as good as he is, isn't head and shoulders above his contemporaries i.e. Lebron, T-Mac, Nash (consecutive MVPs), D. Wade, Iverson, KG, etc.

I mean if this is the case Jordan isn't head and shoulders above Kobe, Lebron, Iverson, etc either. And speaking of Nash, those 2 MVP's which btw are deserve since he makes the team so much better. And during those years Kobe was doing great in individual stats but his team record was sub par so they wouldn't give him the MVP. So now this year, Lebron is doing slightly better individually but Kobe has a better team record (1st in the west) so it should be only logical that they give him the MVP this year instead of Lebron right? I mean Lebron is in the same shoes Kobe was last year doing great but team is doing ok, so imagine they give it to him, wow. They said Kobe didn't get it he previous years because of the overall team record. But let's see what will happens this year, if they don't then it will only prove even more how much they hate him. But thankfully he's number one right now in the race for MVP in almost every writers column and on espn.com, etc.

I believe the closest we have is not Kobe, especially due to his recent debauchery in Eagle, CO but rather James and Wade. Both are supremely talented team and individual oriented, relatively clean cut and thus marketable,

There will and simply couldn't ever be another MJ!!!
As I stated above, no one has elevated to Mike’s level as dictated by:

• Fan draw / consistently sold out road games
• Marketing popularity, with a staggering number of endorsements that could NEVER be duplicated. We really can just stop with Nike, but rent "Space Jam" for a run down.
• Near iconic fame, usurping Ali, in that his images (Jumpman & bust) are recognized worldwide.

Again guys there is no question, no question without a doubt Jordan is BIG in every sense of the word. But what does this have to do with Basketball? There could be someone to come along 100 years from now and be even better than Kobe or MJ but have the worst personality ever and he never gets marketed well or has a bad image, does this mean anything... absolutely not because we are speaking about basketball (well I am for that matter lol)

• And let us not forget actual performance:

Ahh there we go, actual performance, this is what I am talking about now we can actually have a normal conversation about this, everything else doesn't matter.

Rookie of the Year; Five-time NBA MVP; Six-time NBA champion; Six-time NBA Finals MVP; Ten-time All-NBA First Team; Nine time NBA All-Defensive First Team; Defensive Player of the Year; 14-time NBA All-Star; Three-time NBA All-Star MVP; 50th Anniversary All-Time Team; Ten scoring titles -- an NBA record and seven consecutive matching Wilt Chamberlain; Retired with the NBA's highest scoring average of 30.1ppg.
http://www.nba.com/history/players/jordan_bio.html

Jordan and Kobe comparison?
Only in style of play, else you can't be serious!

Ok first let me start off by saying this now after everything I have said in the previous posts, I do believe MJ is the greater player, he is the greatest ever so don't think I am a Kobe bias fan or what not, if there are logical things I will admit them and I do admit Jordan is the greatest ever. Just my main thing that bothers me is how much people hate Kobe.

But now while Jordan is the greatest ever there are obviously a few points to make. Number one you can't compare them right now, would be impossible to do so. Kobe's career is not yet over and he is in his peak years. The main thing I would like to see is him win 3 or 4 more titles and that will strengthen his case a lot. And there's no telling how he will do in the next few years.

And now for Jordans stats and when people compare it to Kobe, a lot of the things you just can't compare because like I said Kobe is not done with his career so how can you compare someone who is retired and done it all to someone who is peaking.

Rookie of the year : Of course Kobe doesn't have this because he came straight out of high school, You think MJ would have won rookie of the year coming out of high school, of course not.

5 NBA MVP titles: again of course Kobe won't have those, he was the most hated man in the NBA and especially to the people that vote for the MVP , lets just say Kobe is not on their good side. But hey maybe things change and he starts getting it from this year onward, well see. But again see what I mean you just can't compare cause his career isn't over yet.

Ok I could keep listing these but this is getting way too long and I can't do this anymore lol.

Point is we have to wait for Kobe's career to end and then we can compare the all time stats.

[Panzerfaust]

Basketball has never been the same for me since MJ left.

[novastepp]

Basketball has never been the same for me since MJ left.

i agree.

[wilson9d]

Basketball has never been the same for me since MJ left.

Well said

[Beefkake31]

Basketball has never been the same for me since MJ left.

That's how I felt for a little while but then we have Kobe and Lebron now. Especially Kobe, I can watch him anytime and be in awe or shake my head at some of degree of difficulty things he does. If those 2 weren't in the league right now I would be watching a lot less of the NBA.

[No One Knows]

Nice...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=n8qUZILi8IM

Averaged 44 a game and wore #23 in college...

[magic32]

Nice...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=n8qUZILi8IM

Averaged 44 a game and wore #23 in college...

True the Pistol was GREAT, and nice footage.

He was just as revolutionary as Mike (virtually indefensible), only at a much earlier time prior to basketball's great popularity. And although his game was more earth-bound and without the benefit of abundant media exposure or million dollar marketing campaigns, he was a joy to watch.

Anyone who doubts or disputes this should watch the video posted, and pay special attention his number, as pointed out by NoOne...the same #23. Coincidence? We'd have to ask Mike.

THE PISTOL WAS A MARVEL!

[novastepp]

"coulda dunked....

u shoulda dunked"

[Sir Lifts-a-lot]

Man, looking back at MJ gives you goose bumps. The man made the sport great. Jordan was more then just the best player of his generation he was the most loved. Kobe is a baby and will never be the greatest of this generation, neither will Lebron for that matter. I though Carter was supposed to be the next MJ? Whatever happend with that. How about Penny or Grant Hill? All were given the torch but they couldn't keep the flame burning.

[Beefkake31]

Man, looking back at MJ gives you goose bumps. The man made the sport great. Jordan was more then just the best player of his generation he was the most loved. Kobe is a baby and will never be the greatest of this generation, neither will Lebron for that matter. I though Carter was supposed to be the next MJ? Whatever happend with that. How about Penny or Grant Hill? All were given the torch but they couldn't keep the flame burning.

I don't understand why so many people HATE Kobe so much, till this day I just don't understand it, ya he might have had a personality type that most people don't like especially in his early years but when he is gone people will see that they took it for granted. And Kobe and Lebron CAN be the greatest of their generation why not?

I mean don't get me wrong I love Jordan and Kobe both, I'm just tired of people hating on Kobe, and I'm not talking to you Sir Lift a lot, just in general.

I mean do people just ignore the fact that Jordan was a compulsive gambler, cheated on his wife many times, punched his own teammate, etc. Sometimes I just don't know why Jordan was so likable and Kobe is not. But one thing I am happy about is people are finally starting to come around especially this year and a little bit of last year. Everywhere Kobe goes if you notice any arena he gets MVP chants especially at the free throw line and applause when he scores, it's crazy lol.

[novastepp]

I don't understand why so many people HATE Kobe so much, till this day I just don't understand it, ya he might have had a personality type that most people don't like especially in his early years but when he is gone people will see that they took it for granted. And Kobe and Lebron CAN be the greatest of their generation why not?

I mean don't get me wrong I love Jordan and Kobe both, I'm just tired of people hating on Kobe, and I'm not talking to you Sir Lift a lot, just in general.

I mean do people just ignore the fact that Jordan was a compulsive gambler, cheated on his wife many times, punched his own teammate, etc. Sometimes I just don't know why Jordan was so likable and Kobe is not. But one thing I am happy about is people are finally starting to come around especially this year and a little bit of last year. Everywhere Kobe goes if you notice any arena he gets MVP chants especially at the free throw line and applause when he scores, it's crazy lol.

...and you're from L.A.

[Beefkake31]

...and you're from L.A.

Yes I am . Been a Laker fan since I was a kid too and I'm a big Kobe fan also yes. If that's the point you are trying to make then I hope you did now.
But so what? I mean I don't hate Lebron, I don't hate Jordan, etc. And I am a big fan of them also. But my point is why do people hate Kobe so much? And like I said in my earlier posts Jordan has done many bad things in his life but the media just didn't hate him as much and never made a point out of things he did and never put him in a bad light and yet he gambled on games , cheated on his wife, etc like I already mentioned, so why I ask do people not hate Jordan but do hate Kobe? So I mean it's not an LA thing, just trying to find the answers.

[novastepp]

Yes I am . Been a Laker fan since I was a kid too and I'm a big Kobe fan also yes. If that's the point you are trying to make then I hope you did now.
But so what? I mean I don't hate Lebron, I don't hate Jordan, etc. And I am a big fan of them also. But my point is why do people hate Kobe so much? And like I said in my earlier posts Jordan has done many bad things in his life but the media just didn't hate him as much and never made a point out of things he did and never put him in a bad light and yet he gambled on games , cheated on his wife, etc like I already mentioned, so why I ask do people not hate Jordan but do hate Kobe? So I mean it's not an LA thing, just trying to find the answers.

no i meant that you are from L.A. and people hate people from L.A.... the icons i guess i should say. they are just tired of kobe. it's just typical to see someone good on the lakers thats all. not to say i think that way, but that's what they're thinking.

[novastepp]

I mean do people just ignore the fact that Jordan was a compulsive gambler, cheated on his wife many times, punched his own teammate, etc. Sometimes I just don't know why Jordan was so likable and Kobe is not.

Can you back up those allegations against Jordan?

But one thing I am happy about is people are finally starting to come around especially this year and a little bit of last year. Everywhere Kobe goes if you notice any arena he gets MVP chants especially at the free throw line and applause when he scores, it's crazy lol.

and the only person I heard getting MVP chants in cities other than his own was Lebron in New York.

[Beefkake31]

Can you back up those allegations against Jordan?




and the only person I heard getting MVP chants in cities other than his own was Lebron in New York.

Are you serious? I watch every Laker game and it's in every arena he goes to, not to mention I'm on 2 basketball forums and keep up with everything so I think I would know this. Sports writers have even mentioned it now finally, the very people that hate him the most even mention these things now because it is so obvious. If you truly keep up with the NBA you would know that Kobe gets this more than anyone else by far. And I will start looking for those articles and post them later just to prove it even more.

And the Jordan allegations I made, you mean, you didn't know? I thought most people would know this. See what I mean, the media loves Jordan and people don't know these things about him. And I will find these articles for you as well to post just so you believe me.

[novastepp]

Are you serious? I watch every Laker game and it's in every arena he goes to, not to mention I'm on 2 basketball forums and keep up with everything so I think I would know this. Sports writers have even mentioned it now finally, the very people that hate him the most even mention these things now because it is so obvious. If you truly keep up with the NBA you would know that Kobe gets this more than anyone else by far. And I will start looking for those articles and post them later just to prove it even more.

And the Jordan allegations I made, you mean, you didn't know? I thought most people would know this. See what I mean, the media loves Jordan and people don't know these things about him. And I will find these articles for you as well to post just so you believe me.

I'm sure Kobe gets it in LA, and i bet you're right about the media, I haven't heard anything else on him.

I would like to see those, because i have never heard anything on the subject.

[Sir Lifts-a-lot]

Oh, and who remembers the damn glass gatorade bottles? When I played little league that was the only way it came and a game didn't go by that my bottle didnt fall off the bench and break. Stupid glass bottles for sports drink. I mean come on!

[ChuckLee]

Mihael was the nr.1 in basket. Ever

[magic32]

I mean if this is the case Jordan isn't head and shoulders above Kobe, Lebron, Iverson, etc either.

Point is we have to wait for Kobe's career to end and then we can compare the all time stats.

Firstly, let me state for the record that I LOVE Kobe he's brilliantly beyond talented, exciting, efficient, and even more important to me "clutch". Although Eagle, CO has nothing to do with bball it certainly truncated his fame because endorsements add to one’s overall stature. Secondly, if you don't think Jordan is head and shoulders above the guys listed above, there's something wrong with your barometer. Thirdly your point, although often made is very well taken, one cannot fairly compare a completed career to one that's in progress...but comparison is always to the present date as the future can only be predicted and never conclusive because of potential’s propensity to be short-circuited in a variety of ways known and unbeknownst to the public. A few examples that come immediately to mind:

• The aforementioned Penny and G. Hill, along with Grandmama, D. Manning, S. King, R. Sampson, etc.
• Damon Bailey, #1 sixth grader in the country according to SI
• Kournikova
• Bosworth
• Big Louie

Side bar:
Oh and as for your comment “Rookie of the year : Of course Kobe doesn't have this because he came straight out of high school, You think MJ would have won rookie of the year coming out of high school, of course not.” ROY is a static measure (based solely on stats) and whether Mike would have gotten it out of H.S. or not is immaterial, he did win it. The bigger point here is that it is a valid measure of the first year player who himself decides league readiness, and thus further validates measure. A far better argument would be that Kobe’s premature entrance usurps Mike’s early college exit because he was a younger league competitor, but this too fails because, Lebron won it against collegians. Making the larger question for you, "Does Kobe really deserve the MJ comparison or does Lebron?" Again we have the time differential as the latter’s career is nearly 3x the span of the former (11 to 4) yet the accolades again "To Date" are very similar minus the titles, which one must admit were Shaq supported…hmm.
------------------
GREAT AVIE CHUCK!

[Beefkake31]

Firstly, let me state for the record that I LOVE Kobe he's brilliantly beyond talented, exciting, efficient, and even more important to me "clutch". Although Eagle, CO has nothing to do with bball it certainly truncated his fame because endorsements add to one’s overall stature. Secondly, if you don't think Jordan is head and shoulders above the guys listed above, there's something wrong with your barometer. Thirdly your point, although often made is very well taken, one cannot fairly compare a completed career to one that's in progress...but comparison is always to the present date as the future can only be predicted and never conclusive because of potential’s propensity to be short-circuited in a variety of ways known and unbeknownst to the public. A few examples that come immediately to mind:

• The aforementioned Penny and G. Hill, along with Grandmama, D. Manning, S. King, R. Sampson, etc.
• Damon Bailey, #1 sixth grader in the country according to SI
• Kournikova
• Bosworth
• Big Louie

Side bar:
Oh and as for your comment “Rookie of the year : Of course Kobe doesn't have this because he came straight out of high school, You think MJ would have won rookie of the year coming out of high school, of course not.” ROY is a static measure (based solely on stats) and whether Mike would have gotten it out of H.S. or not is immaterial, he did win it. The bigger point here is that it is a valid measure of the first year player who himself decides league readiness, and thus further validates measure. A far better argument would be that Kobe’s premature entrance usurps Mike’s early college exit because he was a younger league competitor, but this too fails because, Lebron won it against collegians. Making the larger question for you, "Does Kobe really deserve the MJ comparison or does Lebron?" Again we have the time differential as the latter’s career is nearly 3x the span of the former (11 to 4) yet the accolades again "To Date" are very similar minus the titles, which one must admit were Shaq supported…hmm.
------------------

Hey Magic while I respect your opinions and you actually made some great points there are a few things I disagree with. I am way too lazy past couple days for some reason so I can't respond to this right now because I know myself and I'm going to end up writing a long post and not in the mood. So either I will post my reply in the next few days if you want to continue a healthy debate or we can just agree to disagree. But yes in the end again, at the current moment there is no doubt Jordan is the greatest of all time by far.

[wilson9d]

I think the point of the thread was to remember what an impact Michael had on us and how much we loved him. If you would like to start a Kobe nostalgia thread please do so.

[Beefkake31]

I think the point of the thread was to remember what an impact Michael had on us and how much we loved him. If you would like to start a Kobe nostalgia thread please do so.

The thread creator and I were just debating, if he doesn't have a problem with neither should you.

[magic32]

Beef,

Although true, all of those apparently inflammatory accounts are irrelevant for different reasons:

• The gambling loses didn't even amount to his pocket money, remember everything is relative and though we might think it a lot, that amount certainly didn't make him an addict...and was probably a lot closer to his pocket money.
  
• Filing for divorce and reconciling come on! Pro hoopers shouldn't be married in the first place as evidenced by their constitutions and propensities, not to mention the bulk of these marriages are gold digging schemes anyway. But for the sake of argument/debate let's say this one wasn't, all marriages have problems, and many are simply unsalvageable...hardly a blemish on MJ’s character.
  
• Lastly the infamous affair, well this one even I can't talk away, unfortunately for you the initial payoff was under the table near the start of his career. When she came back for more in '06 his career was climaxing and neither she, nor her story, which by the way appears quite true, mattered in the least. All the games had been played, pictures taken, commercials shot, autographs signed, fame accumulated, and checks cashed causing her to simply vanish.

Kobe on the other hand was dragged through a media circus tantamount to a modern day flogging. He was openly bashed by talk shows and news channels, then paraded about the screen in utter ridicule as little old grandmas on the street shook their fingers in contempt. The fact that he had a relatively new bride and brand new baby, only exacerbated the matter to the point where he was purchasing gaudy gifts, and making public pleas innocence which later changed to some guilt, followed ever so predictably by an open admission (to sex, not rape which no one in their right mind would believe). Then the inevitable began to occur as his Jordan-esque rise, began its meteoric decent…the sponsors started pulling endorsements causing a hemorrhaging of both his popularity (not necessarily fame) and finance.

But alas, the memory of the sports fans is a short one, and as such our heroes can do little lasting wrong. And so the reparation commenced, the league started airing footage of Kobe with the kids from NBA CARES, he signs on for the Olympics and the national teams for the very first time in his entire career, and of course we all just love to watch him move.

Long live KOBE!