The Unofficial "Ask a Muslim" Thread.

[BuffedGuy]

Buffed,

I have began investigating other religions. I don't claim to know everything about any religion but I am aware of many rituals and beliefs of all the major religions. From what I've learned of all, they all have positives and negatives.

Thank for the suggestion to read the Quaran. I've downloaded your link. As I've downloaded the bible and pieces of the Torah. I also have copies of the dead sea scrolls, many ancient greek text, and books on Buddishm, and religious egyptian text. My spiritual journey is a lengthy one, but one I am prepared and eager to continue to make. Maybe I'll find a destination, maybe I won't, but one thing for sure it will be worth the trip!!!

Again, I admire your conviction in your faith. Living the life of the truely faithful is definately an ardious one. So I respect your commitment that seems unwavering even in these most troubling times.

Peace go with you my friend!!!

Peace be unto you, BgMc.

It's very inspiring to hear how you are going on a spiritual journey. May God bless your journey and guide you to whatever is the Truth. May you not slacken in your quest, nor tire, nor become lazy, all of which are the shortcomings of man.

It's great to hear you are reading widely. Please keep in touch and let me know how your journey goes.

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

[xlxBigSexyxlx]

Hey buff. Good ol' buddy. Hows it going?

Anywho, Im not religious. Probably more agnostic if anything. I was raised Lutheran.

I'm not exactly sure where I'm going with this, but I got into it with my mom the other night. Of course your not lutheran, or christian for that matter.
According to them, one must believe jesus is the messiah to get into heaven. And she said everyone else is going to hell. I can't bring myself to see that.

It was funny, because I immediately thought of you lol. I mean, I don't personally know you, but I was thinking man, someone like buff, a good ol guy, can't be forever tortured and blah blah blah. lol

Do you believe that non muslims are all going to whatever hell is, and be tortured forever and ever?

[BuffedGuy]

Peace be unto you, Big.

Hey buff. Good ol' buddy. Hows it going?

Anywho, Im not religious. Probably more agnostic if anything. I was raised Lutheran.

I'm not exactly sure where I'm going with this, but I got into it with my mom the other night. Of course your not lutheran, or christian for that matter.
According to them, one must believe jesus is the messiah to get into heaven. And she said everyone else is going to hell. I can't bring myself to see that.

It was funny, because I immediately thought of you lol. I mean, I don't personally know you, but I was thinking man, someone like buff, a good ol guy, can't be forever tortured and blah blah blah. lol

Do you believe that non muslims are all going to whatever hell is, and be tortured forever and ever?

You posting in this thread in the way you just did reminded me of the following verse in the Quran:

"It may be that God will create love and friendship between you and those whom you now hold as enemies. For God has power over all things, and God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." (Quran, 60:7)

To answer your question, the Quran says:

"They say: 'None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian.' Those are their vain desires. Say: 'Produce your proof if you are truthful!' Nay! Whosoever submits his whole self to God and is a doer of good, he will get his reward with his Lord; on such shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve...The Jews say: 'The Christians have no basis for their religion'; and the Christians say: 'The Jews have no basis for their religion.' Yet they profess to study the same Book! ...They say: 'Become Jews or Christians if you wish to be guided to salvation.' Say you: 'Nay! I would rather follow the Religion of Abraham the monotheist, and he joined not gods with God.' Say you: 'We believe in God, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to all prophets from their Lord: We do not differentiate between any of them: And we submit to God!' ....Our religion is the Baptism of God. And who can baptize better than God? And it is He Whom we worship...Or do you say that Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes were Jews or Christians? Say: 'Do you know better than God?'" (Quran, 2:112-140)

"Surely, those who believe [Muslims]--and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabians--whosoever believes in God and the Last Day and does good--such shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve." (Quran, 2:62)

So to be clear: we do not limit Paradise to those who profess to be Muslims in this life. However, having said that, we believe that anyone who hears the Message of God in its pure form, and who rejects it after that, such will not enter Paradise. In other words, you might enter Paradise if you haven't affirmed Islam (as mentioned in the above verses), but you will go to Hell-fire if you reject Islam. There is a difference then between simply not affirming Islam on the one hand and negating it on the other hand.

Furthermore, it should be understood that the term "Islam" means "submission to God" and "Muslim" means "submitter to God". That is why the Quran says that all of the prophets--including Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, etc (all whom came before Prophet Muhammad)--were "Muslims", i.e. submitters to God. So there is a difference between the specific meaning of the word "Muslim" (i.e. a follower of Prophet Muhammad) and the general usage of the term (i.e. anyone who submits to God). Therefore, we say that the past prophets may not have been "Muslim" in the specific sense, but they were "Muslim" in the general sense. Likewise, there are people on earth today who are "Muslim" in the general sense but not "specific" sense. For example, many people who convert to Islam say that when they read the Quran for the first time, they would say to themselves "I already believed in this stuff before I actually read it here". In other words, their heart was Muslim (in the general sense) before their tongue affirmed Islam in the specific sense.

There are Christians out there today who are Muslim in their hearts, i.e. Muslim in the general sense of the word, i.e. submitters to God. Again, the meaning of "Muslim" is just "submitter to God", or as the Quran says: "whosoever believes in God and the Last Day..." Such we believe will enter Paradise "if they do good".

I hope this makes sense?

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

[xlxBigSexyxlx]

Cool. I gotcha. Thanks.


lol, are we enemies or something? (in response to the very first part)

[BuffedGuy]

Cool. I gotcha. Thanks.


lol, are we enemies or something? (in response to the very first part)

Nope, we are not enemies. But we did go at it before. Good to see we're not any more.

By the way, I added some stuff in the last post. Make sure you refresh and see the whole thing. I have a nasty habit of editing posts a million times.

[xlxBigSexyxlx]

Nope, we are not enemies. But we did go at it before. Good to see we're not any more.

By the way, I added some stuff in the last post. Make sure you refresh and see the whole thing. I have a nasty habit of editing posts a million times.

I get along with most people. And I like ya. We may disagree here and there, but your a good guy.

lol, I noticed that. When I first read it, I kind of didn't get it. But after you added on, it made more sense. haha

Thanks again.

[BuffedGuy]

I get along with most people. And I like ya. We may disagree here and there, but your a good guy.

Thanks! We're both Ron Paulites too!

[BuffedGuy]

Deleted..................

[BuffedGuy]

This post is with regards to the Pope and Africa/abstinence thread...I am posting it here since I promised to try to limit my Islam-related posts to this thread. But yes, I just wanted to say that I think that the Pope is correct in saying that the only solution is pre-marital abstinence, and I do not at all think it is unrealistic. I think that if you look at a map of Africa, you will find that HIV / AIDs is much less prevalent in the Muslim-majority areas, due to the strict pre-marital abstinence followed by most Muslims.

Here is a map of HIV in Africa:



Here is a map of Africa based on how many children orphaned due to AIDS:



Here is a map of Muslim majority areas in Africa, which you could just super-impose on the above two maps:



"When the revelations of the Lord of Mercy were recited to them, they fell to their knees and wept, but there came after them generations who neglected prayer and were driven by their own sensual desires. These will come face to face with their evil, but those who repent, who believe, who do righteous deeds, will enter Paradise. They will not be wronged in the least: they will enter the Gardens of Lasting Bliss, promised by the Lord of Mercy to His servants--it is not yet seen but truly His promise will be fulfilled!" (Quran, 19:58-61)

[countrybhoy]

There are no stupid questions my friend.

In Islam and the number one "pillar" of being a Muslim is that you must believe there is only one god, one creator. The virgin Mary, Jesus, and the apostoles are not gods and shouldn't be worshipped.

The main difference between Islam and Christianity is that Jesus is believed to be the son of god, while Islam says that god is god, he do not reproduce like humans. Jesus is a prophet, and he is the son of Virgin Mary.

but jesus is god . he is part of the holy trinity . the father the son and the holy ghost . 3 "people" 1 entity. sorry know its of subject but i couldnt let that false information pass

[BuffedGuy]

but jesus is god . he is part of the holy trinity . the father the son and the holy ghost . 3 "people" 1 entity. sorry know its of subject but i couldnt let that false information pass

Peace be unto you, Countrybhoy.

Well, indeed this is the entire debate between Christianity and Islam. It is the central difference between the two religions. Christians believe that Jesus [as] is God, whereas Muslims believe that Jesus [as] is not God, but a noble prophet of God.

Allow me to give proof from the Bible itself to support our argument that Jesus [as] is not--and cannot--be God. Here is what we wrote on a website that I work with:

The Bible Says that God is not Man

The Bible says:

Numbers 23:19 “God is not a man…”

Hosea 11:9 “...For I am God, and not man...”

Jesus is called a man many times in the Bible:

John 8:40 “…a man who has told you the truth…”

Acts 2:22 “Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know.”

Acts 17:31 “He will judge the world in righteousness through a man whom He has appointed”

1. Tim. 2:5 “…the man Christ Jesus.”

God is not a man, but Jesus, may the blessing and mercy of God be upon him, was a man, therefore, Jesus was not God.

2. The Bible Says that God Is Not a Son of Man

Numbers 23:19 “God is not a man...nor a son of man…”

The Bible often calls Jesus “a son of man” or “the son of man.”

Matthew 12:40 “…so will the son of man be…”

Matthew 16:27 “For the son of man is going to come…”

Matthew 28 “…until they see the son of man coming in His kingdom.”

Mark 2:10 “But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority…”

John 5:27 “…because He is the son of man.”

In the Hebrew Scriptures, the “son of man” is also used many times speaking of people (Job 25:6; Psalm 80:17; 144:3; Ezekiel 2:1; 2:3; 2:6; 2:8; 3:1; 3:3; 3:4; 3:10; 3:17; 3:25).

Since God would not contradict Himself by first saying He is not the son of a man, then becoming a human being who was called “the son of man”, he would not have done so. Remember God is not the author of confusion. Also, human beings, including Jesus, are called “son of man” specifically to distinguish them from God, who is not a “son of man” according to the Bible.

3. The Bible Says that Jesus Denied He is God

Luke 18:19 Jesus spoke to a man who had called him “good,” asking him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.”

Matthew 19:17 And he said to him, “Why are you asking me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

Jesus did not teach people that he was God. If Jesus had been telling people that he was God, he would have complimented the man. Instead, Jesus rebuked him, denying he was good, that is, Jesus denied he was God.

4. The Bible Says that God is Greater than Jesus

John 14:28 “My Father is greater than I.”

John 10:29 “My father is greater than all.”

Jesus can not be God if God is greater than him. The Christian belief that the Father and son are equal is in direct contrast to the clear words from Jesus.

5. Jesus Never Instructed His Disciples to Worship Himself or the Holy Ghost, but God and God Only

Luke 11:2 “When you pray, say Our Father which art in heaven.”

John 16:23 “In that day, you shall ask me nothing. Whatsoever you ask of the Father in my name.”

John 4:23 “The hour cometh and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth; for the Father seeketh such to worship him.”

If Jesus was God, he would have sought worship for himself. Since he didn’t, instead he sought worship for God in the heavens, therefore, he was not God.

6. The Bible Says that Jesus Recognized, Prayed, & Worshipped the Only True God

Jesus prayed to God with the words:

John 17:3 “…that they might know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.”

Jesus prayed to God all night:

Luke 6:12 “he continued all night in prayer to God.”

…because:

Matthew 20:28: Just as the son of man did not come to be served, but to serve.

How did Jesus pray to God?

Matthew 26:39 ‘…he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, ‘My Father…”

Even Paul said:

Hebrews 5:7 “During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.”

Who was Jesus praying to when he fell on his face with loud cries and petitions? Was it himself? Was Jesus crying in tears to himself pleading to be saved from death? No man, sane or insane, prays to himself! Surely the answer must be a resounding ‘No.’ Jesus was praying to “the only true God.” Jesus was the servant of the One Who sent him. Can there be a clearer proof that Jesus was not God?

The Quran confirms that Jesus called for the worship of the Only True God:

“Truly, God is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him alone. This is the straight path.” (Quran 3:51)

7. The Bible says that the disciples did not believe Jesus was God.

The Acts of the Apostles in the Bible details the activity of the disciples over a period of thirty years after Jesus, may God praise him, was raised to heaven. Throughout this period, they never referred to Jesus as God. For instance Peter stood up with the eleven disciples and addressed a crowd saying:

Acts 2:22 “Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.”

For Peter, Jesus was a servant of God (confirmed in Matthew 12:18):

Acts 3:13 “The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus.”

Acts 3:26 “God raised up his servant...”

When faced by opposition from the authorities, Peter said:

Acts 5:29-30 “We must obey God rather than men! The God of our fathers raised Jesus...”

The disciples prayed to God just as they were commanded by Jesus in Luke 11:2, and considered Jesus to be God’s servant,

Acts 4:24 “...they raised their voices together in prayer to God. ‘Sovereign Lord,’ they said, ‘you made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and everything in them.’”

Acts 4:27 “...your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed.”

Acts 4:30 “…of Your holy servant Jesus.”

This is exactly what the Quran states of Jesus:

Quran 19: 30 “…I am indeed a servant of God.”

8. The Bible says that Jesus was God’s servant, chosen one, and beloved.

Matt. 12:18 “Behold, My servant, whom I have chosen, in whom My soul is well pleased.”

Since Jesus is God’s servant, Jesus can not be God.

9. The Bible says that Jesus could not Do Anything by Himself.

John 5:19 “The son can do nothing by himself; he can only do what he sees his Father doing.”

John 5:30 “I can of mine own self do nothing.”

Jesus did not consider himself equal with God, rather he denied doing anything by himself.

10. The Bible says that God performed miracles through Jesus & Jesus was limited in what he could do.

Matt. 9:8 “But when the crowds saw this, they were awestruck, and glorified God, who had given such authority to men.”

Acts 2:22 “a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst.”

Acts 10:38 “…he went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.”

If Christ was God, the Bible would simply say that Jesus did the miracles himself without making reference to God. The fact that it was God supplying the power for the miracles shows that God is greater than Jesus.

Also, Jesus was limited in performing miracles. One time when Jesus tried to heal a blind man, the man was not healed after the first attempt, and Jesus had to try a second time (Mark 8:22-26). Once a woman was healed of her incurable bleeding. The woman came up behind him and touched his cloak, and she was immediately healed. But Jesus had no idea who touched him:

Mark 5:30 “At once Jesus realized that power had gone out from him. He turned around in the crowd and asked, ‘Who touched my clothes?’”

Mark 6:5 “He could not do any miracles there, except lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them.”

Quite obviously, someone with such limitations can not be God. The power of miracles was not within Jesus.

11. The Bible says that at times of weakness angels strengthened Jesus; God ,however, does not need to be strengthened.

Luke 22:43 “An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him [in the garden of Gethsemane].”

Mk. 1:13 “Then the devil left him; and behold, angels came and began to minister to Him.”

Mark 1:13 “And he was in the wilderness forty days being tempted by Satan; and he was with the wild beasts, and the angels were ministering to him.”

Men need to be strengthened; God does not because God is All-Powerful. If Jesus had to be strengthened, he must not be God.

12. The Bible says that Jesus wanted God’s will to be done, not his own.

Luke 22:42: “not my will but Yours be done.”

John 5:30 “I do not seek my own will, but the will of Him who sent me.”

John 6:38 “For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of Him that sent me.”

Are some members of the coequal Trinity subservient, and less than equal, to other members? Even though they have different wills (“I do not seek my own will”), do they obey without question the others’ commands (“the will of Him who sent me”)? Jesus admits to subordinating his own distinct will, yet according to the Trinitarian doctrine they should all have the same will. Should one of the triune partners have to forgo his own will in favor of the will of another member of the Trinity? Should not they all have the exact same will?

13. The Bible says Jesus regarded God’s testimony as separate from his own.

Jesus regarded himself and God as two, not “one.”

John 8:17 and 18: “I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father.”

John 14:1 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me.”

If Jesus was God, He would have not have regarded God’s testimony as separate from his own.

14. The Bible says that Jesus is subordinate to God

1 Corinthians 11:3 “Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.”

1 Corinthians 15:28 “When he has done this, then the son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.”

Since Jesus was subordinate to God, he was not God.

15. Bible says that Jesus grew in wisdom & learning, but God is All Wise & does not (need to) learn

Jesus grew in wisdom, but God is all wise:

Psalms 147:5 “Great is our Lord and abundant in strength; His understanding is infinite.”

Luke 2:52: “And Jesus increased in wisdom.”

God does not need to learn, but Jesus learned.

Heb. 5:8 “Although he was a son, he learned obedience…”

16. Bible says that Jesus had limited knowledge, but god’s knowledge is infinite

Mark 13:32 “No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the son, but only the Father.”

Since Jesus, may the blessing and mercy of God be upon him, did not know, he was not all-knowing, and therefore, he cannot be the God whose knowledge is all-encompassing.

17. Bible says that Jesus was tempted, but God cannot be tempted

Heb. 4:15 “tempted in every way—just as we are”

James 1:13 “for God cannot be tempted by evil”

Since God can not be tempted, but Jesus was, therefore, Jesus was not God.

18. Bible says that Jesus’ teachings were from God, NOT Jesus himself

John 7:16 “So Jesus answered them and said, "My teaching is not mine, but His who sent me.”

Jesus could not have said this if he were God because the doctrine would have been his.

19. Bible says that Jesus died, but God cannot die

The Bible teaches that Jesus died. God cannot die. Romans 1:23 and other verses say that God is immortal. Immortal means, “not subject to death.” This term applies only to God.

20. Bible says that Jesus lived because of God

John 6:57 “I live because of the Father.”

Jesus cannot be God because he depended on God for his own existence.

21. Bible says that Jesus’ powers were given to him

Matt 28:18 “All power is given unto me.”

God is all-powerful, no one gives God His powers, otherwise He would not be God because He would be weak. Therefore, Jesus could not be God.

22. Bible says that Jesus was taught & commanded by God

John 8:28 “As my Father hath taught me, I speak these things,”

John 12:49 “The Father, who sent me, he gave me a commandment.”

John 15:10 “I have kept my Father’s commandments.”

No one can teach God, otherwise God cannot be All-Knowing and would owe His teacher. Since Jesus was taught and commanded by God, Jesus cannot be God himself. The teacher and the student, the commander and the commanded are not one.

23. Bible says that Jesus was lower than angels

Hebrews 2:9 “But we do see him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus.”

God, the Creator of angels, can not be lower than His own creation, but Jesus was. Therefore, Jesus was not God.

24. Bible says that Jesus called the Father “my God”

Matt. 27:46 “My God, My God, why have You forsaken me?”

Why would Jesus ask himself why he has forsaken himself?

John 20:17 “I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.”

Rev. 3:12 “… the temple of my God… the name of my God… the city of my God… comes down out of heaven from my God.”

Jesus did not think of himself as God, instead Jesus’ God is the same as ours.

25. Bible says that God cannot be seen, but Jesus was

John 1:18 “no man has seen God at any time.”

[BuffedGuy]

Here is a very good video on why Jesus (peace be upon him) cannot be God:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YW99U...layer_embedded

[countrybhoy]

salvation... is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
--2 Timothy 2:10

by him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth...all things were created by him, and for him. Colossians 1:16



For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1 John 5:7



the bible and all the other books do confuse people from time to time . but its state very clearly jesus and god are the same . ive taken to parts of the bible . truth be told i didnt want to post more as feel i am hijacking this thread .

[BuffedGuy]

Peace be unto you, Countrybhoy.

You posted three verses. However, none of the three verses can serve as an explicit proof for the Trinity. The only one that comes close is the third one which you quoted, 1 John 57:

For there are three that bear record in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

(1 John 5:7)

This verse is found in the King James Version. However, virtually *all* Biblical scholars agree that this verse is a fabrication and a latter day addition which was not a part of the original Bible. That is why you will *not* find this verse in *any* of the recent translations of the Bible, such as New Revised Standard Version, NIV, etc.

You can listen to what Dr. Bart Ehrman, a Bible scholar at the University of North Carolina, has to say about this verse. The clip is available here:

http://thedeenshow.com/gameshow.html

It is the first audio clip, numbered #28, and entitled "Misquoting Jesus: Scribes Who Altered Scripture." If you skip to 27:00, Dr. Ehrman explains how 1 John 5:7 is a fabrication. Although you don't have to take my word for it or his, just open up any newer translation of the Bible, and see for yourself: the verse has been removed.

Therefore, the reality is that this verse posted by you is actually a very strong proof *against* the concept of the Trinity. Since it is agreed that this verse was added to the Bible by an unscrupulous scribe, one can use this as a supporting proof for our Muslim thesis that the Christians added the entire concept of Trinity to the pure religion as taught by Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him).

The second verse you quoted was:

salvation... is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
--2 Timothy 2:10

We Muslims have no opposition to this verse at all. Salvation is most definitely in God's Prophets. Whoever believes in them, in what they preached, and in who sent them, attains salvation. This is the same message sent by Prophet Muhammad [s] who also said that salvation is through him, i.e. by obeying him, as he is a commissioned messenger of God. Whoever rejects the prophets--any one of them--has doomed himself.

I will respond to the third verse you quoted shortly, God-Willing.

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

[pyrat]

Are muslims really X-men?...

Yes, I was just telling my friend the other day how amazing the parallels are between being a mutant in the X-men and being a Muslim today. We have Muslims who are like X-Savior on the one hand, and meanwhile they do battle with the Magneto type Muslims who've just said "f em all." Sometimes when I debate with the extremists amongst our Muslim ranks, I can't help but recall the debates between X-Savior and Magneto...especially when X-Savior says: "They just hate us because they don't understand us." And also another thing that reminded me of the X-men was when people were saying "maybe Obama is a secret Muslim"...it reminded me of a scene in X-men where they accuse a politician of being a "secret mutant." And then there are the Magneto type Muslims who try to totally screw up the image of Muslims in America, so that the good will garnered by the X-Savior Muslims is thrown out the window.

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...75#post4515775

i knew x-men were real!

[BuffedGuy]

Are muslims really X-men?...



http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...75#post4515775

i knew x-men were real!

Yep, you nailed it.

[countrybhoy]

just so you know i have no ill feeling towards your religion my friend . infact i would like to see more people religious no matter which one they follow. i have never known a true believer in our lords work hate or dystroy anything . its the fanatics . oh and we have them too . look at billy graham (sp) . few sandwhiches short of a picnic that lad is .

[BuffedGuy]

Peace be unto you, Countrybhoy.

just so you know i have no ill feeling towards your religion my friend . infact i would like to see more people religious no matter which one they follow. i have never known a true believer in our lords work hate or dystroy anything . its the fanatics . oh and we have them too . look at billy graham (sp) . few sandwhiches short of a picnic that lad is .

I agree with you 100%. And I'm glad you feel that way. I believe it is terrible how people of faith don't see how that "Muslim vs Christian vs Jew vs whoever" is all so yesterday. While we're all busy bashing each other's religion, the fight for religion in generality--for people of faith--is on. The great threat to Islam is not so much Christianity--nor is Islam the threat to Christianity...the real danger is the wave of atheism/agnosticism and extreme secularization.

I'm not saying that atheists or agnostics are all extreme. They--like people of faith--come in all different types. There are very tolerant and respectful atheists/agnostics, such as many people on this site. But there are also those who wish to totally undermine and destroy religion from the face of this earth.

We--Muslims, Christians, Jews, etc--need to show the atheists/agnostics that religion can exist peacefully in a tolerant and pluralistic society. We don't need to banish religion from every sphere of society; we just need to display tolerance.

I remember once there was a debate going on about the issue of children celebrating Christmas in public schools. One of the debaters mentioned how Muslims are strong opponents of this. Personally though, I wouldn't at all mind if Christian students are allowed to practice Christmas in the schools. I just think that Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc. should be allowed to celebrate their own holidays as well. I'd rather have my kids go to such a pluralistic, tolerant, and multi-cultural school than one that where the children are just not exposed to any of that.

In other words, we don't need to banish religion altogether. We just need to be tolerant and respectful towards people of other faiths (including towards atheists).

I guess I'm rambling...but my point was that initially when I joined this website I think some Christians felt that I am anti-Christian. But I am not at all anti-Christian. When I see a Christian, I see a person of faith, just like myself. When I see an orthodox Jew, I see someone who follows a religious code so similar to my own. My own sibling went to a Catholic school growing up, based on the thinking of my family that Catholics would be closer to us than what we'd find at a public school. If I myself had an option of sending my child to a public school or a Christian one, I'd choose the latter! I'd rather my child grow up in an environment of faith than none at all.

This post is not meant to denigrate atheists. I believe atheism is another religion, and as such, it would be bigoted to hate on them. I do, however, think that there exist atheistic fanatics just like Muslim or Christian fanatics exist. But again, there are *many* atheists and agnostics who are very tolerant and respectful people.

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

[BuffedGuy]

BBC Documentary on YouTube: The Contribution of Islam to the European Renaissance

[D7M]

I knew you'd be back...

[BuffedGuy]

I knew you'd be back...

I do love you guys.

[BgMc31]

Buffedguy, I'm glad you're back!!!

Anyway, I don't know if you saw the thread about the Confederate Flag, I felt like you for a minute because I was the only one against it. Oh well, it was a lively debate and enjoyed some of the educated responses.

Well, I have a question about Islam. I don't know if its been asked before but here it goes...The Taliban practices strict Sharia law, correct? Well does Islam support marital rape, because Karzai recently sanctioned it in the remote areas where Sharia law is practiced.

Here's an article: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6025362.ece

I've recently been reading a Kaballa book and believe it or not, this book cites many references from the Quaran. Don't worry I have no desire to convert to Kaballa but it does have some interesting points akin to Buddhism.

[BgMc31]

Another question BuffedGuy, the middle east, particularly Iran and Iraq, are the cradle of civilazation, with artifacts and documents dating back older than Islam, Christianity, Judasim, etc. How can you deny the rich history of those ancient civilizations?

[chicmagnet]

Buffed one of the ways the Bible can be proven other than prophecy coming to pass is Bible numerics, ie:numeric values on Greek and Hebrew lettering adding up to significant meanings, eg scriptures concerning satan add up to 666 or 13 ect. Does the Koran have this or something similar?

[D7M]

Buffed one of the ways the Bible can be proven other than prophecy coming to pass is Bible numerics, ie:numeric values on Greek and Hebrew lettering adding up to significant meanings, eg scriptures concerning satan add up to 666 or 13 ect. Does the Koran have this or something similar?

fyi...biblical numerics are garbage.

it's all bullsht marketing so people will buy a book.

biblical numerics are to real scholarship what steroid knock-offs are to real gear.

[area547]

Not to jump in and steel anyone's thunder.
But If you would like some insight into the terrorist psychology, I highly recommend reading this: http://www.usdoj.gov/ag/manualpart1_1.pdf

Its in essence the terrorists MO. Read the whole thing and you'll begin to understand their mindset and their dedication.

[BuffedGuy]

Peace be unto you, BgMc31.

Buffedguy, I'm glad you're back!!!

Thanks! Glad to be back...although I really never left, lol. Was just ignoring the thread in the politics section, since I did not want to do injustice to anyone else with my tongue, since I get emotional over such matters.

The Taliban practices strict Sharia law, correct?

No. The Taliban certainly believes that they follow the Shari'ah, but they do not. They are uneducated cavemen who have no understanding of the Shari'ah, nor do they respect the thousand year old classical Islamic scholarship, which differs dramatically from their sophomoric understanding.

If you want to ask about specific laws, I am more than willing to explain how the Taliban differ dramatically from the actual Shari'ah.

I am now going to answer the question on marital rape, God-Willing, as it is an excellent question.

[BuffedGuy]

..The Taliban practices strict Sharia law, correct? Well does Islam support marital rape, because Karzai recently sanctioned it in the remote areas where Sharia law is practiced.

Here's an article: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6025362.ece

Islam forbids marital rape. The reason that the extremists like the Taliban think it is allowed is because Prophet Muhammad [s] said:

"If a man calls his wife to his bed (without a valid reason)--and she refuses and causes him to sleep the night in anger--the angels will curse her till morning." (Sahih al-Bukhari, Muslim)

The parenthesis above is from the Sharh Sahih Muslim by an-Nawawi.

So yes, the angels will curse a wife who without any reason refuses her husband's call to sexual intercourse. It is also true that the maidens of Paradise (i.e. the virgins you hear about on tv all the time) will say to your wife: "He is only yours for a limited amount of time, after which he will be ours." Yet, this is only if there is no valid reason. Valid reasons include being sick, exhausted, etc.

However, it should be noted that men are also commanded to fulfill the sexual needs of their wives. In the Prophetic Traditions, we read:

The wife of Uthman ibn Madhoon complained to the Messenger of God that her husband had no need for women (i.e. sexually). During the days he would fast and at night he would pray...The Prophet then told him: "...Certainly, your wife has a right upon you!" (Sahih ibn Hibban, vol.2 , p. 19)

Shaykh al-Islam said:

"It is obligatory for the husband to have intercourse with his wife as much as is needed to satisfy her, so long as this does not exhaust him physically or keep him away from earning a living." (Al-Ikhtiyaaraat al-Fiqhiyyah, p. 246)

And we read further:

"Intercourse is a duty on the man - i.e., the husband should have intercourse with his wife - so long as he has no (valid) excuse." (Ibn Qudaamah al-Hanbali: "al-Mughni", 7 / 30)

So the issue is the same for men and women. A man must fulfill the sexual needs of the wife, and the wife of the husband. The reason that this is required is that marriage is a means of fulfilling sexual desire in a legal manner, and if one party refuses the other, it may be that the other party will seek out to fulfill the sexual desire in a way that leads to hell-fire, i.e. by watching pornography, adultery, etc.

This is the reason why a wife is encouraged to dress up sexily for her husband, and the husband is encouraged to maintain his body for her, etc. And unlike some other religions which advocate celibacy as encouraged, Islam enjoins married couples to have sex, as a means to increase love between them and to quench the sexual thirst in a permissible manner. Therefore, a man is rewarded for having sex with his wife, and she is rewarded for having sex with him, if the intention is to fulfill the sexual urge in the proper way.

It should be noted that we are not saying that a person should have sex when they are not feeling it. Rather, it is as the female scholar Ustadha Zaynab Ansari says:

"This Prophetic narration is an admonition to women who use sex as a weapon against their husbands."

And she says further:

"In terms of how often a couple should have sex, this is a decision that should be reached mutually. Having sex everyday can be exhausting and it is not unreasonable for you to ask your husband for a little respite. ...While recognizing that each spouse has a different libido, couples can successfully negotiate what is an achievable goal for them in terms of sexual activity. If the husband's libido is very high, while the wife's is moderate to low, then that's just a further incentive for the couple to settle on a level of sexual intimacy that is mutually satisfactory."

However, I have not yet answered your question: Is marital rape allowed? The answer is a clear-cut "NO!" The Prophet [s] said:

"If a man calls his wife to his bed (without a valid reason)--and she refuses and causes him to sleep the night in anger--the angels will curse her till morning." (Sahih al-Bukhari, Muslim)

The bolded part above is what the Taliban cavemen don't understand. Had it been permissible to rape one's wife, then why would the husband go to sleep in anger? So this is a clear cut case of the Taliban not understanding Shari'ah: they hear that a wife is commanded to have sex with his wife, and then just jump to conclude that they can force themselves on their wives.

In fact, Prophet Muhammad [s] forbade forcing oneself upon the wife:

"You should not fulfill your (sexual) need from your wife like an animal; rather there should be between them [the married couple] foreplay of kissing and (soft) words." (al-Daylami: "Musnad al-Firdaws" , 2 / 55)

And there is another Prophetic narration that I couldn't find right now (but I will look for it) in which the Prophet [s] completely forbade mounting a wife like an animal against her will.

Prophet Muhammad [s] said:

"It is a depravity in a man to assault his unprepared wife, seeking to satisfy his own lust." (Ihya of Imam al-Ghazali, vol. 2: 49-50; dhaeef but affirmed in meaning)

To conclude, the general rule is that a man must fulfill the sexual needs of his wife, and the wife of the husband. Yet, there is no place for marital rape. If a wife refuses a husband, the most a husband can do is go to sleep angry, but he cannot force himself upon her.

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

[BuffedGuy]

Another question BuffedGuy, the middle east, particularly Iran and Iraq, are the cradle of civilazation, with artifacts and documents dating back older than Islam, Christianity, Judasim, etc. How can you deny the rich history of those ancient civilizations?

Peace be unto you, BgMc31.

Can you please clarify your question? Why you think a Muslim must deny the rich history of ancient civilizations? Perhaps I am not understanding your question.

[BuffedGuy]

Buffed one of the ways the Bible can be proven other than prophecy coming to pass is Bible numerics, ie:numeric values on Greek and Hebrew lettering adding up to significant meanings, eg scriptures concerning satan add up to 666 or 13 ect. Does the Koran have this or something similar?

Peace be unto you, ChicMagnet.

I agree with Derek's post here:

fyi...biblical numerics are garbage.

it's all bullsht marketing so people will buy a book.

biblical numerics are to real scholarship what steroid knock-offs are to real gear.

There have most definitely been books by certain unscrupulous Muslims talking about a numeric code in the Quran. However, the Islamic scholarship rejects such bogus claims. In fact, it has been said that one can--through the use of computers--find (read: generate) numeric codes from any newspaper.

The Quran is a book of spiritual guidance, and the guide to salvation. It is not a science or math book. One-third of the Quran is about the Oneness of God, another third of the Quran is about the stories of the prophets who preached the Oneness of God and the past nations which were sent down this message of Oneness of God, and another third of the Quran is everything else. The beauty of the Quran is in its message: namely in the belief of One God, and being monotheistic in worship of this One God. The Quran preaches pure monotheism. This is the reason a person should convert to Islam, not because of some science trivia supposedly in the Quran, or of a mathematical code. I believe that nowadays people are trying to validate their religious books through science and math, because they view science and math as the absolute truths. Rather, I believe the Quran is at a higher level than science and math, because the Quran is salvation for the soul.

Prophet Muhammad [s] told us how Prophet Moses [as] asked God for something special to set him apart him from the rest of the prophets. So God gave him the words "There is no god except God." Prophet Moses [as] replied back saying that these words were given to all the prophets before him, so give him something special that would make him greater. Again, God gave him the same words: "There is no god except God." Then God informed Prophet Moses [as] that if these words were placed on one side of a scale, and if all the heavens and the earth--and everything in them--were placed on the other side of the scale, then the words "there is no god except God" would be so much heavier than the other side that the heavens and the earth--and all that is in them--would fly off the scale as if they were nothing but a fly. Such is the heaviness and gravity of the words "There is no god except God."

The point is that a person should convert to Islam for this reason, i.e. "There is no god except God", not because of some science trivia or mathematical code. Furthermore, Muslims should call Non-Muslims to these words, not trying to impress them with some supposed science trivia or mathematical code in the Quran.

Prophet Muhammad [s] commanded his disciple who was sent to the people of Yemen (who were Christians):

"You will be going to the People of the Scripture [Christians], so the first thing you should invite them to is the Oneness of God." (Sahih Bukhari, Vol.9, Book 93, #469; Sahih Muslim, Vol.1, p.14, #27)

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

[BgMc31]

Peace be unto you, BgMc31.

Can you please clarify your question? Why you think a Muslim must deny the rich history of ancient civilizations? Perhaps I am not understanding your question.

What I mean is in many areas, including Afghanistan ancient monuments have been destroyed by Islamists claiming its adolation of false gods. Also those of Islamic faith as well as those of the other Abrahamic faiths claim their religions are the be all end all. But for thousands of years, ancient cultures prevailed while having their own system of beliefs. Many of the evidence of these great religions have been destroyed in the name of their current faiths.

[BuffedGuy]

What I mean is in many areas, including Afghanistan ancient monuments have been destroyed by Islamists claiming its adolation of false gods. Also those of Islamic faith as well as those of the other Abrahamic faiths claim their religions are the be all end all. But for thousands of years, ancient cultures prevailed while having their own system of beliefs. Many of the evidence of these great religions have been destroyed in the name of their current faiths.

Peace be unto you, BgMc31.

Thank you for clarifying your question. The mainstream Islamic scholarship condemned the Taliban's destruction of the statues. The Taliban spokesman claimed that the statues were destroyed not for religious reasons, but out of public anger due to the fact that some European organization was spending millions of dollars on the upkeep of the statues instead of food.

Nonetheless, I do not give much credence to the Taliban spokesman's explanation, since I have seen them give multiple answers to the same question, depending on who is asking. Furthermore, it is the job of the government to prevent the destruction of property. If a European organization is spending money on something, then that is their right to do that, one which we cannot infringe upon.

But back to your question: there is no reason to destroy the cultural heritage of a nation, even if it be pre-Islamic. However, Islam does prohibit pride in one's ancestral glory, since this is seen as a form of a bigotry. So what a Muslim do is strive for a balance. What the extremists do--such as the Taliban--is not correct.

According to the Islamic Law, it is strictly forbidden to destroy churches, the temples of other faiths, etc. The religious structures of various faiths are to be respected. The Second Caliph of Islam entered Jerusalem and refused to pray in a church, saying that he feared that if he prayed in that church, then the Muslims of latter generations may try to convert it to a mosque. And one can see the way Saladin restored the churches, even though the Crusaders burned down the mosques.

So although Islam does most definitely posit itself as the absolute truth--to the exclusion of other faiths--at the same time we are commanded to respect the right of other faiths to co-exist. If a church under Islamic rule is being attacked, then it is incumbent on the Muslims to rise up in arms to defend that church, to the death. That is what Islam enjoins, in the name of respecting the right of freedom of religion. Keep in mind that the Muslims ruled Afghanistan for over 1400 years, during which time the statues were never harmed. It was the Taliban who were the first to do that, which shows how they have gone away from the mainstream Islamic scholarship. One of the ways we condemn the Taliban is to remind them that the first Four Righteous Caliphs of Islam all ruled Afghanistan, yet none of them ever ordered the demolition of the statues.

As a side-note, I do not agree with this term "Islamist". It is too vague and encompassing. Depending on what definition is used, a bunch of moderate Muslims--including myself--could be included in that term. I prefer the term "extremists" to differentiate them (Taliban, Al-Qaeda, etc.) from us mainstream Muslims.

Please feel free to ask any further questions. I enjoy your posts.

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

[BgMc31]

Thanks for your continued replies Buffed. I admire your willingness to continue to bring enlightenment to the unenlightened.

I'm a huge fan of history and I especially adore the history of the ancient Persians, Mesopatanians, Babylonians, etc. I don't think nearly enough credit is given to those ancient cultures by the west. Many of the technologies and theories credited to western cultures were stolen from these great cultures as well as those from ancient Africa. But as we all know, history is written by the victors.

Thanks again, brotha, and thank you for clarifying the term Islamist.

Your knowledge is vast Buffed and regardless of whether you and I agree on everything, there is a special place in heaven (regardless of what religion one believes) for people like you.

Peace and continued KNOWLEDGE be unto you, brotha!!!

[BuffedGuy]

Anyway, I don't know if you saw the thread about the Confederate Flag, I felt like you for a minute because I was the only one against it. Oh well, it was a lively debate and enjoyed some of the educated responses.

Haha, we Muslims joke around how Muslim is the new black. We are going through a lot of the things blacks went through. When I was younger, I used to horribly underestimate the discrimination and obstacles faced by the black community. Being in a similar situation now, I can understand how that must feel.

In fact, the black Muslims are a guide for the "immigrant" Muslims, since the blacks have experience in this field. Chariff (another poster on this forum) says how he has it doubly hard, as being both black and Muslim.

I've recently been reading a Kaballa book and believe it or not, this book cites many references from the Quaran. Don't worry I have no desire to convert to Kaballa but it does have some interesting points akin to Buddhism.

I agree with you that Buddhism and Kaballa are a nice way to live. But I wanted more in a religion. I wanted it to be not just a nice way to live, but an answer to all my questions, an explanation of why I am here, where I'm going after that, and just a complete theology. However, different things appeal to different people.

[BuffedGuy]

Thanks for your continued replies Buffed. I admire your willingness to continue to bring enlightenment to the unenlightened.

I'm a huge fan of history and I especially adore the history of the ancient Persians, Mesopatanians, Babylonians, etc. I don't think nearly enough credit is given to those ancient cultures by the west. Many of the technologies and theories credited to western cultures were stolen from these great cultures as well as those from ancient Africa. But as we all know, history is written by the victors.

Thanks again, brotha, and thank you for clarifying the term Islamist.

Your knowledge is vast Buffed and regardless of whether you and I agree on everything, there is a special place in heaven (regardless of what religion one believes) for people like you.

Peace and continued KNOWLEDGE be unto you, brotha!!!

Thanks, I appreciate your praise, although much of it is excessive and I am unworthy of most of it. But I thank you for the kind words. May God guide you and I to all that which is the truth.

I love history too, and I think it's great you have a passion for that. I truly believe that learning history makes us better people. Without learning history, it is very easy to turn bigoted. What history teaches us is that God gives power to a people, then takes it away, gives it to another, then takes it away, etc. In other words, who is on top now was not always on top, despite what people have led themselves to believe. Europe jumped ahead of the rest of the world only very recently, and contrary to what many people think today, they were not always at the top. Everyone gets a turn at power, and this is how God tests people and nations.

Most importantly, however, it is only the ignorant who take pride in their current power, because the wise know that power is fleeting. Yesterday the Soviet Union was a super-power; yet look at its condition today.

A lot of people think that Africa has always been a "backward jungle", and this is because they don't know history. We really need to learn history.