The Unofficial "Ask a Muslim" Thread.

**gst528i** · 02-03-2009, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by adamw1

As someone who does not really have a religious view but does have a respect for religion i would like to say this thread is fascinating. Iv always believed religion is something you are born into depending on what side of the fence you were born so to speak and it is used as an excuse for far to many atrocities and always will be. My question is,how does your faith or any faith for that matter explain theorys on scientific evolution etc?

'About God, I cannot accept any concept based on the authority of the Church. As long as I can remember, I have resented mass indocrination. I do not believe in the fear of life, in the fear of death, in blind faith. I cannot prove to you that there is no personal God, but if I were to speak of him, I would be a liar. I do not believe in the God of theology who rewards good and punishes evil. My God created laws that take care of that. His universe is not ruled by wishful thinking, but by immutable laws'.

—W. Hermanns, Einstein and the Poet—In Search of the Cosmic Man (Branden Press, Brookline Village, Mass., 1983), p.132, quoted in Jammer, p.123.

I do understand this is just one persons belief but that makes more sense to me.

very nice post.

**BuffedGuy** · 02-03-2009, 02:43 PM

Peace be unto you all.

I have deleted my two last posts, which were on American torture of Muslim prisoners. I was too emotional when I posted them, because I had just watched a documentary called "A Taxi to the Dark Side." I realize that President Obama has said he will bring a stop to all of this, and has already taken some steps in that direction. His first interview was to an Arab television channel, and he said some really good things in it. So I am going to believe in change and hope.

I will not give up on my people, who are the American people. Prophet Noah [as] spent his whole life calling his people back to the path of righteousness, only giving up after 900 years. (Yes, we--like the Christians--believe that humans lived much longer back then.) If Noah [as] did not give up for that long, I will also not give up any time soon. All I call my people towards to is worship one God alone, and if that is too much for them to accept, then at least for them not to harm those who do believe this.

Ya Allah (O God), give me strength, for You are the source of all strength.

In the Care the Lord,
-Saladin.

**BuffedGuy** · 02-03-2009, 02:46 PM

Peace be unto you, Adam.

Can you please clarify your question. You said:

Originally Posted by adamw1

My question is,how does your faith or any faith for that matter explain theorys on scientific evolution etc?

Are you asking me what is Islam's view towards evolution?

**Flagg** · 02-03-2009, 02:46 PM

How are tattoos generally regarded BuffedGuy?

Are they frowned upon or do some have any symbolic meaning?

**BuffedGuy** · 02-03-2009, 02:54 PM

Originally Posted by Flagg

How are tattoos generally regarded BuffedGuy?

Are they frowned upon or do some have any symbolic meaning?

Peace be unto you, Flagg.

I answered that question here:

The Unofficial "Ask a Muslim" Thread.

**BuffedGuy** · 02-03-2009, 03:29 PM

Oh mannnn, Jon Stewart's Giggle me All-mo joke on yesterday's show was truly hilarious, LOL:

http://www.hulu.com/watch/55851/the-...mon-feb-2-2009

**gst528i** · 02-03-2009, 04:03 PM

Originally Posted by BuffedGuy

Peace be unto you all.

I have deleted my two last posts, which were on American torture of Muslim prisoners. I was too emotional when I posted them, because I had just watched a documentary called "A Taxi to the Dark Side." I realize that President Obama has said he will bring a stop to all of this, and has already taken some steps in that direction. His first interview was to an Arab television channel, and he said some really good things in it. So I am going to believe in change and hope.

I will not give up on my people, who are the American people. Prophet Noah [as] spent his whole life calling his people back to the path of righteousness, only giving up after 900 years. (Yes, we--like the Christians--believe that humans lived much longer back then.) If Noah [as] did not give up for that long, I will also not give up any time soon. All I call my people towards to is worship one God alone, and if that is too much for them to accept, then at least for them not to harm those who do believe this.

Ya Allah (O God), give me strength, for You are the source of all strength.

In the Care the Lord,
-Saladin.

i thought u said people only lived like 20's back than. Well u didn't say, it says so in the book ur wrote as to why mohammed had a 9 year old for wife. if so than doesn't it conflict with one of the statements, either noah didn;t live for that long and if he did than mohammed could have lived long enogh to wait for the 9 year old to turn alittle older?

**BuffedGuy** · 02-03-2009, 04:41 PM

Originally Posted by gst528i

i thought u said people only lived like 20's back than. Well u didn't say, it says so in the book ur wrote as to why mohammed had a 9 year old for wife. if so than doesn't it conflict with one of the statements, either noah didn;t live for that long and if he did than mohammed could have lived long enogh to wait for the 9 year old to turn alittle older?

Peace be unto you, GST.

The fact that the average life span back in the time of Prophet Muhammad [s] was in the twenties is proven. As for the idea that before the Great Flood humans lived for hundreds of years, this is a theological belief that would be difficult to prove either way.

Christians believe that humans lived for hundreds of years before the Great Flood, when God wiped out of all mankind except those on Noah's ark. After that, man's life was shortened significantly as a result of his sins. Some Christians have even given scientific explanations for this, namely a genetic mutation that results in aging or susceptibility to diseases. Because of that or whatever other reason, humans started dying out early. In recent times, due to modern medicine, better sanitation, higher standard of living, etc., the lifespan has started to go back up, but of course nowhere near what it was before the Great Flood.

Muslims believe in a similar thing, although we do not talk about the specifics in the same way. We acknowledge that people lived for hundreds of years during the time of Prophet Noah [as], but to the best of my knowledge (and I might be wrong about this), we do not know the reason that this was changed. (The Christians say it was due to man's sins, I do believe.) We are also not sure about some of the other details I mentioned above, but we do not negate what the People of the Book say on this matter; we simply say it is possible but we are not sure. When it comes to what the People of the Book say, we are instructed to affirm it if it is in the Islamic scripture, deny it if it opposed by Islamic scripture, and remain neural on it if there is no mention either way in Islamic scripture. In regards to the life of Prophet Noah [as] and those before him, the Islamic scripture affirms this, although the details that the Christians go into are not delineated in our Islamic scripture, so we remain neutral on that.

Hope that clarifies.

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

**BuffedGuy** · 02-03-2009, 05:32 PM

Peace be unto you all.

There is one topic I have not talked about at all in this thread, without which I think this thread is incomplete. It is the issue of the Caliphate. Muslims the world over yearn to destroy nationalism which has infected our lands. We want to end these foreign imposed boundaries, such as the imaginary boundary between Lebanon and Syria, Iraq and Kuwait, etc etc. These boundaries have destroyed the Muslim ummah (nation) by pitting brother against brother. Our leaders over us are petty tyrants who vie for nothing but worldly power and nationalistic gain.

Not only did the colonial powers impose these boundaries upon us and put despotic leaders over our heads, but they also demolished the Caliphate. Muslims yearn for a return of the Caliph, who will unite the 1.5 billion Muslims under one nation from Malaysia to North Africa. All under one God.

This is the feeling of the vast majority of Muslims in the world, and it will come to pass, God-Willing. It is our feeling that colonialism will never truly come to an end until we unite as one, all one billion of us in 50+ nation-states. It is only then that we will have the power and resources to resist occupation and oppression. Pan-Islamic unity is the only way for us to have dignity. This is what a pan-Islamic state would look like:

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

**gst528i** · 02-03-2009, 05:54 PM

Originally Posted by BuffedGuy

Peace be unto you all.

There is one topic I have not talked about at all in this thread, without which I think this thread is incomplete. It is the issue of the Caliphate. Muslims the world over yearn to destroy nationalism which has infected our lands. We want to end these foreign imposed boundaries, such as the imaginary boundary between Lebanon and Syria, Iraq and Kuwait, etc etc. These boundaries have destroyed the Muslim ummah (nation) by pitting brother against brother. Our leaders over us are petty tyrants who vie for nothing but worldly power and nationalistic gain.

Not only did the colonial powers impose these boundaries upon us and put despotic leaders over our heads, but they also demolished the Caliphate. Muslims yearn for a return of the Caliph, who will unite the 1.5 billion Muslims under one nation from Malaysia to North Africa. All under one God.

This is the feeling of the vast majority of Muslims in the world, and it will come to pass, God-Willing. It is our feeling that colonialism will never truly come to an end until we unite as one, all one billion of us in 50+ nation-states. It is only then that we will have the power and resources to resist occupation and oppression. Pan-Islamic unity is the only way for us to have dignity. This is what a pan-Islamic state would look like:

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

Not gonna happen until america and other western powers are no longer world players.
What you shows is nation to powerful, and you know we can;t have than happen.
G/l though .

**BuffedGuy** · 02-03-2009, 06:02 PM

Originally Posted by gst528i

Not gonna happen until america and other western powers are no longer world players.
What you shows is nation to powerful, and you know we can;t have than happen.
G/l though .

If not this generation, then the next, if not the next, then the next after that, if not them, then those after them. God-Willing.

**BuffedGuy** · 02-03-2009, 07:49 PM

Interesting fact: the holy day of the week for Muslims is Friday, for Jews it is Saturday, for Christians it is Sunday. Let's push for a 3 day weekend. Who is with me?

***D7M*** · 02-03-2009, 07:52 PM

Originally Posted by gst528i

Not gonna happen until america and other western powers are no longer world players.
What you shows is nation to powerful, and you know we can;t have than happen.
G/l though .

yah, I'm gonna have to side with gst on this one

**BuffedGuy** · 02-03-2009, 08:07 PM

Originally Posted by derek7m

yah, I'm gonna have to side with gst on this one

Oh I don't disagree with that. I don't think realistically it can happen any time soon. Yet, like all matters, it starts out as a whisper, and it will take a few generations for the whisper to turn into a deafening thunder. The more they bomb us, the more they kill our women and children, the more they torture us, the more they rob us of our land, of our wealth and livelihood, etc., the more Muslims are waking up and whispering that blessed word: "Caliphate." It is the colonial powers that destroyed the Caliphate, but it is also they who will be responsible for its return. When the Zionists starting whispering in the 1800s, nobody took them seriously; their condition was too pathetic back then. But the whisper became a reality eventually, through perseverance. And Zionism involved the colonization of a land that did not belong to them, whereas Pan-Islamism calls on Muslims to rule their own land. People will think it is unrealistic now, but it will happen eventually, God-Willing. Muslims in every corner of the globe are whispering right now.

**gst528i** · 02-04-2009, 03:34 PM

Buffedguy you haven't answered one of my questions. I think you it might be due to the loss of blood from you head to ur other head.
I'll let it slide, since i can the difficulty of thinking straight when the little guy wants to go hunting for the pink taco ...

**BuffedGuy** · 02-04-2009, 08:16 PM

Originally Posted by gst528i

Buffedguy you haven't answered one of my questions. I think you it might be due to the loss of blood from you head to ur other head.
I'll let it slide, since i can the difficulty of thinking straight when the little guy wants to go hunting for the pink taco ...

Peace be unto you, GST.

I will reply shortly, God-Willing. Haven't forgotten. The one about the Quran right?

I'm just a bit pressed for time right now, so I'm limiting my lengthy posts. Exam is right around the corner. Prone2Rage likes my new shorter posts, haha. Just give me some time; I was going to reply, God-Willing. I always enjoy your questions, since you ask some really good ones.

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

**BuffedGuy** · 02-05-2009, 03:01 AM

Peace be unto you, GST.

Originally Posted by GST

On a side note, can some explain why jersualem is so important to jews, muslims and christians.

I will allow Scibble to speak for the Jews and Derek to speak for the Christians on this matter. As for Muslims, Jerusalem is considered the third holiest city in the world, next to Mecca and Madeenah.

Keep in mind that the same way that Christians believe that Christianity follows and supersedes Judaism, so too do Muslims believe that Islam follows and supersedes Christianity. What this means is that they are all from the same origin, each successor faith inheriting from the former. As such, it is no surprise that all three find Jerusalem to be holy.

Prophet Moses [as] and his people--whom we Muslims believe were neither Jews nor Christians (since these terms did not exist back then) but were submitters in the general sense of the term--were saved from the tyranny and oppression of Pharaoh, monarch of Egypt. Pharaoh chased out the people of Moses, and so God granted them the Holy Land, i.e. Jerusalem, as a refuge for them. God says in the Quran:

"Moses said to his people: 'O my people! Remember God's favor upon you, when He produced prophets amongst you, made you kings, and gave you what He had not given to any other among the nations. O my people! Enter the holy land which God has assigned unto you, and turn not back ignominiously, for then will you be overthrown, to your own ruin.'" (Quran, 5:20-21)

In that blessed land is Al-Masjid Al-Aqsa, a mosque/temple that was created for all of mankind to worship God. I explained earlier in this thread that the Ka'abah in Mecca was the first universal house of worship; well, Al-Masjid Al-Aqsa was another such universal house of worship. We believe that there are only three permissible universal houses of worship, as Prophet Muhammad [s] said:

“No (religious) journey should be made except to three mosques: al-Masjid al-Haraam [the Kaba'ah], Masjid al-Rasool [the Prophet's Mosque in Madeenah] and Masjid al-Aqsa [in Jerusalem].” (Sahih al-Bukhari)

The prohibition of making religious pilgrimage to any other place on earth is to protect monotheism. It is well known that the polytheists would make religious pilgrimages to shrines that they would erect over their dead ones; so Islam prohibited all that and said that only religious pilgrimage could be made to these three universal houses of God, not to graves/shrines. This is one of the issues over which we differ with the Shi'ites who make religious pilgrimages to the shrines and graves of their dead in Iraq and Iran, which we believe makes them polytheists.

In any case, I am getting off topic. Back to the importance of Jerusalem to the Muslims. So in it is Al-Masjid Al-Aqsa, the universal house of God, which was constructed by Prophet Jacob [as] and later reconstructed. One prayer offered inside this mosque is counted by God as being two hundred and fifty prayers anywhere else. So the one who prays five daily prayers there would accumulate half a million prayers in the course of one single year, such is its blessed nature.

Some other points:

1. The Holy Land in general was a place where many prophets were sent, and much divine revelation was given. Of these include the blessed arch-prophet, the Messiah, i.e. Jesus [as]. Some Christians think that Jerusalem is only important to us because of Prophet Muhammad's Night Journey there, but in actuality we also believe that Jerusalem is important because Prophet Jesus's ministry was located there. We love and respect all of the prophets.

2. Jerusalem is the first qiblah of the Muslims, i.e. the Muslims used to face Jerusalem in prayer, instead of Mecca. This was for over a year until God commanded the Muslims to change their face away from Jerusalem and to Mecca.

3. Jerusalem is the site of The Ascent. Prophet Muhammad [s] made the Night Journey to Jerusalem from Mecca, as mentioned in the Quran:

“Glorified be He [God], Who took His slave Muhammad for a journey by night from al-Masjid al-Haram (in Mecca) to the Farthest Mosque (in Jerusalem), the environs of which We have blessed--so that We might show him some of Our Signs. Verily, He is the All-Hearing, the All-Seeing." (Quran, 17:1)

Once the Prophet Muhammad [s] arrived in Jerusalem, he led the prayers in Al-Masjid Al-Aqsa. Behind him did pray all the souls of every single of the hundreds of thousands of prophets that were ever sent by God to humanity. This was a great honor bestowed upon him by his Lord. The fact that all of the prophets--including Prophet Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, etc.--prayed behind Prophet Muhammad [s] signified the unity of all the divine revelations sent to the various peoples, from which come Judaism, Christianity, etc. Islam is the superseder which has come to lead them all.

Then after this prayer began The Ascent: from Jerusalem Prophet Muhammad [as] was ascended to the heavens to meet with His Lord Most High. It was in this miraculous Ascent that the covenant between God and the Ummah of Prophet Muhammad [s] was "brokered": the five daily prayers.

3. The Anti-Christ will rule the world, but he will be prevented from entering Al-Masjid Al-Aqsa.

4. The Messiah, Jesus [as], will kill the Anti-Christ in the Holy Land. Thus, it has relevance to Armageddon.

Please see next post, God-Willing.

**BuffedGuy** · 02-05-2009, 03:36 AM

The fact that we believe that Jerusalem is holy does not mean that we are justified in conquering it and dispossessing the inhabitants of it. Before Islam came on the scene, Jerusalem was ruled by the great Christian empire--the Byzantine Empire. They expelled Jews and banned them from entering Jerusalem:

The Byzantine Emperor Constantine, however, rebuilt Jerusalem as a Christian center of worship, building the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in 335. Jews were still banned from the city, except during a brief period of Persian rule from 614-629 CE.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...CE_-_638_CE.29

And from a Zionist website:

Byzantines

Constantine was the founder of the Byzantine empire and a devout Christian. He tried to make Jerusalem into a center of Christian worship by erecting many churches there, including the Church of the Holy Sepulcher, and designating various areas as Christian holy sites....In 614 the Persians actually managed to capture Jerusalem...but this victory was short-lived and the Byzantines returned in 629 to again expel the Jews. They ruled Jerusalem until their defeat at the hands of the Muslim Arab caliph, Omar, in 638.

http://www.jafi.org.il/education/100/places/jer.html

(I am going to be quoting from this site repeatedly, so keep a note that it is the "Jewish Agency for Israel" website.)

After Prophet Muhammad [s] united Arabia under the banner of Islam, the Byzantine Empire declared war on the Muslims at the Battle of Tabuk. You see, at that time, the Arabs were backwater backwards people (much like today) and horribly disunited amongst warring tribes, each worshiping their own gods. The two great empires of the time--the Byzantines in the West and the Persians in the East--capitalized on this and fought each other over Arab land in Syria/Palestine and Iraq, and the Arabs were reduced to vassalage. The Byzantines and Persians were two great elephants, and the grass underneath (the Arabs) was trampled underfoot. Each set up its own vassal client states in Arab lands. In Syria/Palestine, the vassal state was known as the Ghassanids...and this includes Jerusalem.

Then Prophet Muhammad [s] united all of Arabia under the banner of Islam, all under one God. The Byzantines declared war on the Muslims, in what is called the Battle of Tabook. Thus began the Byzantine-Islamic wars. In the Battle of Yarmouk, the Ghassanids (who were Arabs living in Jerusalem and under Byzantine rule) defected and assisted the Muslims in overthrowing the Byzantines, and so Jerusalem was conquered:

The Ghassanids remained a Byzantine vassal state until its rulers were overthrown by the Muslims in the 7th century, following the Battle of Yarmuk in 636 AD. It was at this battle that some 12,000 Ghassanid Arabs defected to the Muslim side.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghassan..._Byzantine_era

The Prophet's disciple, the Second Caliph of the Muslims, went to Jerusalem himself to accept the pledge of allegiance from Jerusalem. He entered Jerusalem whilst his servant was riding the camel and he (the Caliph) was walking, so the people thought his servant was the Caliph of the Muslims. In any case, the Second Caliph (Umar ibn al-Khattab) reversed the 400 year Christian ban on Jews:

Umar ibn al-Khattab [the Second Caliph of the Muslims] also allowed the Jews back into the city and freedom to live and worship after four hundred years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...CE_-_638_CE.29

And from the same pro-Israeli website:

The Byzantines returned in 629 to again expel the Jews. They ruled Jerusalem until their defeat at the hands of the Muslim Arab caliph, Omar, in 638...The majority of the population was still Christian, though the Jews were allowed to settle there. They developed two Jewish quarters: one southwest of the Temple area, and one north of it.

http://www.jafi.org.il/education/100/places/jer.html

Hundreds of years later, the Zionist Jews gave their thanks to the Muslims by expelling the Palestinians from their homes, creating the largest refugee population in the world.

But alas, I am going out of order. So Caliph Umar conquered Jerusalem at the behest of the Ghassanids and allowed the Jews to return. For hundred of years, the matter was such, until the Crusaders invaded. They subsequently slaughtered the inhabitants and again expelled the Jews. From the same pro-Israeli website:

Crusaders

In 1099 the Crusaders besieged Jerusalem and, in one of history's strange ironies, the "City of Peace" was once again involved in war and bloodshed. The Christian soldiers, led by Godfrey of Bouillon, scaled the city walls and massacred the inhabitants -- Jews and Muslims alike. In order to repopulate the city, the Crusaders transferred Christian Arab tribes from Transjordan and settled them in the former Jewish quarter.

Jerusalem became the capital of the Crusader kingdom and thrived because of the concentration of all the government and church bodies there. Tens of thousands of Christian pilgrims visited the city every year, thus adding to its growth and prosperity. But the Jews were still for the most part banned, as during the previous Christian period.

http://www.jafi.org.il/education/100/places/jer.html

Then the prince of the believers, the shining knight, the exemplar, the standard bearer, the righteousness of the faith--SALADIN--came and liberated Jerusalem from the grips of the Crusaders. Unlike the Crusaders, he didn't slaughter the inhabitants of Jerusalem. Rather, he showed such restraint and mercy upon the Crusaders that his own secretaries complained and said that it was too much...Saladin allowed the Eastern Christians to stay if they so wished it, and he was merciful on the Crusaders as well, allowing them to leave for a pittance ransom, much of which he paid from his own coffers....many of the Crusaders left--escorted by Saladin's own guards who protected them--with chests full of gold (which had been stolen from Jerusalem):

They [the Crusaders] stripped the ornaments from their churches, carrying with them vases of gold and silver and silk- and gold-embroidered curtains as well as church treasures. The Patriarch Heraclius collected and carried away gold plating, gold and silver jewelry, and other arteacts from the Church of the Holy Sepulchre.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/med/salahdin.html

But Saladin turned a blind eye:

Heraclius was allowed to evacuate a number of church treasures and reliquaries, which scandalised the Muslim chronicler Imad ad-Din al-Isfahani

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_(1187)

Yet Saladin allowed them to do it, in order to keep his word not to bring any harm to them:

Imad al-Din was amazed at the amount of treasure that had been carried away by the departing Latins. He reports having told Salah al-Din that these treasures could be valued at 200,000 dinars. He reminded him that his agreement with the Latins was for safe conduct (arnan) for themselves and their own property, but not for that of the churches, and he counselled that such treasures should not be left in Latin hands. But Salah al-Din rejected his proposal:

"If we interpret the treaty [now] against their interest, they will accuse us of treachery...Let us deal with them according to the wording of the treaty so they may not accuse the believers of breaking the covenant. Instead, they will talk of the favours that we have bestowed upon them."

Certainly Salah al-Din's magnanimity towards the Latins contrasts sharply with the attitude of the victorious Crusaders in 1099.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/med/salahdin.html

He not only let them leave in peace, but he escorted them to safety to Tyre:

Salah al-Din assigned each group fifty of his officers to ensure their safe arrival in territories held by the Christians. One chronicler gives Salah al-Din's officers credit for their humane treatment of thc refugees, noting that these officers,

" who could not endure the suffenng of the refugees, ordered their squires to dismount and set aged Christans upon their steeds. Some of them even carried Chnstian children in their arms."

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/med/salahdin.html

The Muslim chroniclers complained that the latter day Muslims had nobody but Saladin to thank for setting up the Crusader defense of Tyre! But this was Saladin! When his secretaries complained about his lenience in the conquest of Jerusalem, he said to them: we will allow it to be a victory that the world shall remember for all time. As a professor from McGill University said:

In contrast to the European conquest of Jerusalem, Saladin's capture of the city was far more civilized and less bloody.

http://history-world.org/saladin.htm

The Christians had destroyed and ransacked the mosques. Yet, Saladin (Salah al-Din) preserved and refurnished the churches...not only that but he allowed the Byzantine patriarch to directly rule them:

Salah al-Din allowed them to pray freely in their churches, and he handed over control of Christian affairs to the Byzantine patriarch...When the Byzantine emperor received the news of Salah al-Din's victory in Jerusalem, he asked him to restore the Church of the Holy Sepulchre to the Greek Orthodox Christians, a request that Salah al-Din granted.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/med/salahdin.html

From the pro-Israeli website:

Saladin

When the Muslims, under Saladin, recaptured Jerusalem in 1187, the Jews enjoyed a short period of resettlement in Jerusalem. But with Saladin's death, the city remained without any stable authority and was shuttled back and forth between Christians and Muslims.

http://www.jafi.org.il/education/100/places/jer.html

And lastly:

If the taking of Jerusalem were the only fact known about Salah al-Din, it would be sufficient to prove him the most chivalrous and great-hearted conqueror of his own, and perhaps of any, age.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/med/salahdin.html

Then the Muslim Mamluks came...from the pro-Israeli website:

Mamluks

In 1250 a new Muslim force appeared on the scene, the Mamluks, who managed to establish themselves as rulers of Jerusalem for over 260 years. Jewish life in Jerusalem was somewhat freer under Mamluk rule than it had been with the Christians. The city remained poor but Jewish scholarship and learning thrived.

http://www.jafi.org.il/education/100/places/jer.html

And then the Ottomans came after them, and the Jews, Christians, and Muslims lived in peace in the City of Peace, i.e. Jerusalem (again from pro-Israeli website):

Jerusalem came under the domination of the Ottoman Turks in 1517 when Sultan Selim I took it in a bloody battle with the Mamluks. His successor, Suleiman the Magnificent, left his mark on Jerusalem's history by building the present-day wall around the Old City. The construction of the wall, which took five years, made a great impression on the Jews of the time and it remains as one of the dominant architectural features of the city to this day...

http://www.jafi.org.il/education/100/places/jer.html

Then after World War I, the British colonized Jerusalem and Palestine. Then the Zionists pressured the British to give them Palestine, and organized illegal immigration to Palestine. They founded the Jewish Colonization Agency...You see, at that time, they didn't have to be sneaky like they are today. They openly declared themselves to be colonists, because colonialism was in vogue back then. It was not only tolerated, but it was encouraged and thought of as a good thing. It was one colonist (Zionists) to another (the British).

And so the Zionists colonized the Palestinians, and the rest is history.

WHENEVER the Muslims conquered Jerusalem from the Christians, they always welcomed the Jews back; they granted the Jews the Right of Return, even though it was the Christians--not the Muslims--who expelled them from Jerusalem. Is it not interesting then that the Zionist Jews pay us back by expelling us Muslims from the holy land just like the Christians did to them! They deny us the Right of Return, even though throughout history we gave it to them.

GST, you said that all three religions find Jerusalem to be holy so how can they all live in the same place. Well, the only time that all three religions lived there in peace was when it was under Muslim rule.

As for the Jews, they've ruled Jerusalem twice, once in ancient times and today. Both times they ran the natives off of their land. As mentioned in numerous verses in the Old Testament, the Jews put the natives of Palestine to the sword, killing women, children, young and old, virgins, pregant women, infants, and even unborn fetuses...For example, let's see what they did to the people of Jericho...just for your reference:

Jericho is a city located near the Jordan River in the West Bank of the Palestinian territories. It is the capital of the Jericho Governorate, and has a population of over 20,000 Arabs.[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jericho

OK, so how did the Israelites deal with the natives back then when they ruled the land? Let's read from the Old Testament itself (which the Jews believe in):

Suddenly, the walls of Jericho collapsed, and the Israelites charged straight into the city from every side and captured it. They completely destroyed everything in it – men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep, donkeys – everything. (Joshua 6:20-21 NLT)

And there is much more on the behavior of the Israelites:

Deuteronomy 20:13

And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword....

Deuteronomy 20:16-17

...In the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee.

And we see how the Jews rule Palestine today...they started by expelling half a million Palestinians. They forbid the Muslims from praying in their mosques, including restricting access to Al-Masjid Al-Aqsa. (Remember how the Muslims allowed the Christian patriarch HIMSELF to rule over the great Christian church!)

**BuffedGuy** · 02-05-2009, 06:04 PM

I posted this to Scibble (an orthodox Jew) in another thread...just cross-posting:

The Islamic Law is like The Law Lite 2.0. The Islamic Shari'ah is a bit less strict on things than the Jewish Halacha. Like the example you gave about seven ritual days after the cessation of menses...the Islamic Law is less strict on this matter, and says only during the time of menses, not any days after that. And there are also other issues I've seen where the Islamic Law is less stringent than the Jewish Law.

We actually believe that when Prophet Muhammad [s] made The Ascent to meet His Lord Most High, he [s] also met the soul of Prophet Moses [as] in the heavens. Prophet Moses [as] instructed Prophet Muhammad [s] to beg God Almighty to make the Law less strict on the nation of Muhammad [s], because Moses [as] said that the Law broke the backs of the Children of Israel; Moses [as] said that out of his own experience with his own nation [the Children of Israel], the nation of Prophet Muhammad [s] would not be able to bear it. So Prophet Muhammad [s] implored God Almighty for mercy on this matter, and God Almighty accepted it of him. Initially, the Muslims were instructed to pray fifty times a day, instead of five. But God granted the Muslim nation lenience and promised to count each prayer as equal to ten. Prophet Muhammad [s] narrated the story:

"God had fixed fifty prayers for my nation. But on my journey (back), I happened to pass by Moses [as]. He inquired, 'What has God made obligatory for your nation?' I said, 'Fifty prayers.' He [Moses] said, 'Go back to your Nourisher because your nation will not bear it.' I returned and got its number reduced from my Nourisher. Then God eliminated half of its number. When I returned to Moses [as], I said to him, 'Half of the prayers have been eliminated.' He [Moses] then said, 'Go back again to your Nourisher. Your nation would not even be able to bear this.' I got it further decreased from God. God pronounced, 'Five prayers are kept obligatory and these are equal to fifty in reward. There is no change in Our pronouncement.' After that when I returned to Moses [as], he said, 'Go back again to your Nourisher now.' I said, 'Now I feel (too) ashamed of my Nourisher (to go back).'" (Sahih al-Bukhaari)

***D7M*** · 02-05-2009, 06:09 PM

hey Buffed,

don't know if you treated this yet, but can you comment on Islamic eschatology?

**BuffedGuy** · 02-05-2009, 10:22 PM

Peace be unto you, GST.

Originally Posted by GST

My question is who made GOD?

Prophet Muhammad [s] said:

"A day will certainly come when some people will sit with their legs crossed and ask: 'If God created everything, who created God?'" (Sahih Al-Bukhari)

You see, at that time, men were too fearful to ask such a question. But now the level of disbelief has reached such a great point that people ask this question, which was unimaginable back then.

As for the answer, God has existed since all time, before time was even created. He has no beginning nor any end. Nobody created Him, and He created all.

The belief in God does not need to be proven, because it is a belief that is ingrained in the hearts, emblazoned into the Innate Nature (fithra) of man. God Almighty says of the atheists:

"Were they created of nothing, or were they themselves the creators? Or did they create the heavens and the earth? Nay, they have no firm belief!" (Quran, 52:35-36)

It is the question that the Quran asks and which they can never answer: how can something ever be created from nothing? It is impossible. Thus the only solution is a supernatural one. Since the normal laws of this worldly life cannot possibly explain how it all began--as something can never come from nothing according to science--then we must say that the only possible explanation is that there is something supernatural at work, which does not follow the normal laws.

Believers may not have scientific proof, but they have what is better than that: the Signs of God. God says in the Quran:

Verily in the heavens and the earth are Signs for those who believe. And in the creation of your ownselves and the animals scattered throughout the earth--such are Signs for those folk who have firm faith.

And in the alternation of the night and day, and the fact that God sends down sustenance from the sky, and revives therewith the earth after her death, and in the change of the winds--therein are Signs for a people who have sense.

Such are the Signs of God, which We rehearse to you in truth. In what other revelation, if not in God and His Signs, will they believe?

Woe to every sinful liar who hears the Signs of God rehearsed to him, yet is obstinate and proud, as if he had not heard them: then announce to him a penalty grievous. And when he learns something of Our Signs, he takes them in jest: for such there will be a great punishment. In front of them is Hell: and of no profit to them is anything they may have earned, nor any protectors they may have taken to themselves besides God: for them is a tremendous penalty.

This is true Guidance, and for those who reject the Signs of their Lord, is a grievous penalty of torment.

God it is Who has made the sea of service unto you that the ships may run thereon by His Command, and that you may seek of His Bounty, and that you may be thankful! And He has made subservient to you all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth; all this from Him. Therein, behold, are Signs for people who reflect!

Tell all those who have become believers that they should forgive those who do not believe in the coming of the Days of God. It is for Him alone to recompense people for the deeds they have wrought. Whoever does a righteous deed does so for the benefit of his own soul; if he does evil, it works against his own soul. In the end will you all be brought back to your Lord.

(Quran, 45:3-15)

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

**gst528i** · 02-05-2009, 11:02 PM

Do you think the devil exists than he is as powerful as god?

did god create us for his amusement? did he create us so can have beings that worship him ?
Why does he need to be worshiped? why does he crave attention? why does he need us too do good and live by his rules?
Is god an entity that is power hungry and like to rule as most humans?

**BuffedGuy** · 02-06-2009, 12:08 AM

Peace be unto you, GST.

Originally Posted by gst528i

Do you think the devil exists than he is as powerful as god?

The Quran says about God: "There is nothing like unto Him", which means there is nothing even remotely comparable to Him. God is All-Powerful and the Source of all power.

did god create us for his amusement? did he create us so can have beings that worship him ?
Why does he need to be worshiped? why does he crave attention? why does he need us too do good and live by his rules?
Is god an entity that is power hungry and like to rule as most humans?

Before I answer these questions, I want to know where you are coming from. Don't you already believe in God, as you stated elsewhere?

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

**gst528i** · 02-06-2009, 02:48 AM

Originally Posted by BuffedGuy

Peace be unto you, GST.

The Quran says about God: "There is nothing like unto Him", which means there is nothing even remotely comparable to Him. God is All-Powerful and the Source of all power.

Before I answer these questions, I want to know where you are coming from. Don't you already believe in God, as you stated elsewhere?

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

I believe in god, i just don;t understand how he came in being "god". I believe he is almighty, but why does he want to be almighty. I know he is all knowing, but how was it that he became all knowing.

Are you saying that you are content with everything that islam has taught you? Do you have no questions that are unanswered?
I geuss my problem is my brain just can't comprehend some of the questions themselves rather than trying to answer it.

Im sure what im saying doesnt make sense,

oh well im a lost cause ..

I am in NO WAY disrespecting god or you or your beliefs. If you feel i am, trust me this is not my intention.
And your last post helped me alittle bit but than it seems with every question answered, i have 10 bigger questions that seem to have no answers.

sorry, i will stop posting ..

p.s those questions came out when i was frustrated about current events.

**BuffedGuy** · 02-06-2009, 02:55 AM

Peace be unto you, GST.

I am not offended in the least. I just wanted to know where you were coming from, so I could fine-tune my answer to address the issues you have. Please ask whatever questions you have. I will answer shortly, God-Willing.

**BuffedGuy** · 02-06-2009, 03:44 AM

Peace be unto you, GST.

Originally Posted by gst528i

did god create us for his amusement? did he create us so can have beings that worship him ?
Why does he need to be worshiped? why does he crave attention? why does he need us too do good and live by his rules?
Is god an entity that is power hungry and like to rule as most humans?

A fundamental tenet of our belief is that God is completely dissimilar to everything besides Him. He tells us in the Quran, "There is nothing whatsoever like unto Him." (Quran, 42:11)

A consequence of this belief is that unlike human actions, divine actions are not driven by motives, because motives only make sense in the context of someone who is weak and needy.

To clarify this further, consider the following. When humans perform actions, it makes sense to inquire what drove them to do so because, being the indigent beings that they are, they always act to fulfill certain needs. For example, Jared will put on a coat because the weather is cold and he needs warmth. Susan will eat food because she is hungry and needs nutrition. Sam will go to university because he needs to earn a living through the degree that he will obtain. As you can see from these examples, the motives that people have behind their actions betray their fundamental neediness.

God is the creator of everything and needs nothing. This is easy to state but not so straightforward to comprehend. One of the implications of this absolute freedom from need of anything is that God is not driven by motives when He acts. Someone who needs nothing can have no motives. To ask "why" God did something makes no sense at all.

In the words of the Quran, "He is not questioned regarding what He does, but they are questioned." (Quran, 21:23)

God has no need for our obedience and our disobedience does not harm Him. When the Quran tells us that He created us to worship Him, this does not mean that He needed to be worshiped and therefore created us to fulfill this need. Because God is completely unlike everything else that exists, it does not make sense to ask why He did this. Rather, this is just how things are, and it is up to us to choose where we want to go, i.e. heaven if we obey Him, and hell if we disobey Him.

When God says that the only purpose of our creation is to worship Him, this was not for the benefit of God. God Himself says:

"O you men! It is you that have need of God: but God is the One free of all wants, worthy of all praise." (Quran, 35:15-17)

Now, like you said, if God had wanted, He could have made all men believe and then enter all of them into Paradise. God Himself says this much:

"Do not the believers know that had God willed, He could have guided all mankind?” (Quran, 13:31)

In fact, all the other creation--aside from human beings and the species that Satan is--all creations are 100% guided by God and have no free-will in the matter. Before God created humans, He had created the angels, who are made of light. An angel cannot sin; an angel is incapable of sin. It simply obeys whatever God says. In fact, the Arch-Angel Gabriel used to pray to God, wherein each position of his prayer used to last many years, in perfect concentration and reverence. (Keep in mind that we Muslim human beings only bow down for a couple minutes maximum.) When Gabriel [as] had finished, God said to the effect of: good, but there will come a time when a human will exist--living in a time of great temptation--who will pray hastily, with poor concentration, etc....but whose prayer will be superior to that of Arch-Angel Gabriel's prayer. The reason? Because humans have free will, and angels don't. An act done out of free will is greater than that which is not done out of free will. If a judge forces a man to do 80 hours of community service, this means nothing compared to a man who himself chooses to do 80 hours of community service.

By God giving us the freedom to obey or disobey Him, He allowed us to reach a higher state of greatness. That is why when God created the first human, He instructed all the other creation to pay homage to Adam (the first man). And when God was about to create humans, the Angels asked why would God create a being who would disobey Him and create bloodshed in the land? It is narrated in the Quran as such:

"Behold, your Lord said to the angels: 'I will create a vicegerent on earth.' They said: "Will you place therein one who will make mischief and shed blood, whilst we do celebrate Your Praises and glorify Your Holiness?' He said: 'I know what you know not.'" (Quran, 2:30)

And so--despite the fact that the Angels were perfect in their worship and praise of God--and despite the fact that the some of the humans would spread corruption in the land and disobey God--even still God raised the humans over the angels. Why? Because those of the humans who worshiped God out of free will are superior to those who have no say in the matter. And God does not need the worship, but rather the human beings benefit themselves by worshiping God.

There is an important distinction here to be made. When God says that He is worthy of all praise, this does not mean that He NEEDS the praise. It is merely God stating a fact, a reality. Now many disbelieving atheists say "well, God must be arrogant that He needs so much praise." He doesn't need it! Rather, He is simply stating a fact: that He is deserving of Praise, and we benefit ourselves by giving that Praise. The atheists say "God must be arrogant", but think about ANY arrogant person you know; each and every one of them is in need of the praise, which causes them to be arrogant. It is the weakness in their personality that they *need* praise to feel good about themselves. For example, Pharaoh would gather the people to bow to him, because he needed them to do that so that he could feel good about himself. This is because Pharaoh had the need to feel good; he wanted fame, glory, and power. But God has no wants! He has no needs either. Wants, needs, etc. are things that weak creatures have, because they do not possess something. Meanwhile, the All-Powerful has EVERYTHING, so He could not have any wants, needs, etc. God has no benefit from our worship of Him, because that would imply that the creation gave benefit to that which can only give benefit, not receive benefit. Pharaoh was getting something out of his followers by them bowing to him: by bowing to him, they were giving him a sense of pride, joy, etc. Meanwhile, God does not get anything out of us worshiping him, so the idea that God is hungry for power is not even applicable; how can the one who never gets hungry be hungry for anything?

There is nothing that raises a person's soul to a greater level of bliss than worshiping God out of free will, which raises a person above that of the angels and the rest of the creation. The fact that God punishes some of His Slaves is as a mercy to those Who would obey Him. It pushes them to obey Him, for fear of facing that fate. It is also a manifestation of His Justice and Glory. Again, it just is. We don't have to ask about the motives, since there are none. It is.

Anyways, to conclude--since I ramble--God is not in need of anything. He created us to worship Him, and that will only benefit our own souls, and God gains nothing from it, nor loses anything from it. He is free of all wants.

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

**BuffedGuy** · 02-06-2009, 03:45 AM

GST, I would answer the rest of your questions, but first read and digest that, then ask me follow-up questions or if you totally hate the answer, let me know why. God-Willing.

**BuffedGuy** · 02-06-2009, 06:07 AM

Peace be unto you, GST.

I am going to write a huge long post on how I came to Islam: I doubt a single person will read it since it's so long. So whoever reads it, well and good. If nobody reads it, it is ok. It is just a story of me, rather than having anything to do with the religion really.

Originally Posted by gst528i

Are you saying that you are content with everything that islam has taught you? Do you have no questions that are unanswered?

I have never in my life doubted that God exists. It is just something that is ingrained in my soul, pre-programmed. I do not think it has anything much to do with my parents, who are the type of people that almost never talk about religion. Growing up, they were more cultural than religious. At a very young age, I was attracted to the mosque. I'd say starting in second grade. Other children would hate to go to Sunday School, but I loved it. I would not only go, but I would always think about how to improve on the rudimentary lesson plans.

As a child, I could not comprehend the idea that God did not exist. I learned in like third or fourth grade that there actually existed a group of people who didn't believe in God, i.e. the atheists. It shocked me beyond belief; I was scandalized. It was as if someone were to tell me that there are a group that worship Satan or carries out human sacrifices; my reaction would have been the same.

I know that people would say that I was just brainwashed into believing in God, but like I said, my parents were not really religious. They didn't pray. I was the first in my family to pray five times a day, which I began the very day I began puberty. It was only after I prayed consistently for a few years that my mother started praying, then my sister, and after a few years my father and my other sister just recently.

And when I was like eight or so, I was the one who demanded that our family shift to eating halal food only. We used to go trick-or-treating, and I brought an end to that. My parents never forbade us from tv shows; me and then my sister (who also then turned religious) forbade all tv shows--other than cartoons--upon ourselves. Let me put this way: by the time I was watching Home Improvement, everyone else was watching Friends.

I don't know...guess I was just grew up as a "fundamentalist", lol. My little sister--who was like three years old--used to run around naked; obviously at that age, who doesn't? I was like seven at the time, and I used to tell her "dress modestly", LOL. I used to read a lot of library books, but I'd black out curse words. (I didn't realize that I was committing a sin by destroying someone else's property.) Now obviously some of these things were extremism--since I did not realize the matter back then--but my point is that nobody forced this religion on to me. I gravitated to it myself. And no, I've never ever had a doubt about it. Have I ever questioned certain aspects of it? Well, yeah sure there were many things that were hard to understand or that went against what my own brain would want to have. But did I ever doubt the faith overall? Did I ever think "hey, this is a false religion?" No. Never.

However, although I was Muslim, I was not born into orthodox Islam. I converted into orthodox Islam. That is after I studied all the various understandings of Islam; I realized it was the best. To me, the thing that jumped out at me was the beautiful concept of The Oneness of God, which is the salient feature of orthodox Islam. To me, there is no Islam without accepting this concept properly, and it is was makes Islam unique.

Did I ever reject the idea of organized religion? I considered it, but to me, it didn't make any sense. I reasoned that if God did exist (and indeed I believe firmly in that), then that knowledge should affect my life in a profound way. It cannot just be a "hmm, yeah sure God exists, ok now let me carry on my life without any change from that affirmation"...a person who doesn't believe in organized religion generally lives in the same way that a person who doesn't even belief in God does. If you know that God exists, how does that affect your life?

I think this is the grandest and most powerful realization--namely that God exists--and as such it should have a profound effect in your life. For example, if I won the lottery, that would dramatically change my life. Surely the knowledge that God exists is a greater truth than that. It should therefore change my life in a great, great way. Rather, it should consume my entire life, such is the gravity of this knowledge. I liked how Islam reduced our entire lives to one single purpose: to worship God. I thought this realization--that God exists--is so great that it deserves to be the focus of our entire lives, and even still we could not do justice to the gravity of this affirmation.

The only way to try to do justice to this belief in God is by reducing our existence to this ONE single task. We eat only so that we have the strength to worship God. We work in a career so that we have money to survive, which allows us to worship God. We love our family because God told us to, and this is obeying God which is worshiping Him. Every act we do--even watching a boxing match--can be turned into worship. If I make my intention for watching a boxing match that it is a permissible entertainment--and by this I am staying away from forbidden entertainment--then I am worshiping God by obeying Him. If I have sex with my wife, I am doing it by obeying God's prohibition against adultery, so even having sex will be counted as a reward and worship.

So anyways, long story short, I couldn't accept the idea that there is no organized religion. To me, that is like saying "yes, God exists, but it has no bearing or effect on my life."

Did I consider other faiths? I did study Christianity simply because it was the dominant faith where I grew up. I read the Bible front to back at a very young age. Reading up on Christianity is probably one of the things that increased me in faith the most, simply because when one puts Christianity and Islam side-by-side, one sees how truly Islam completes Christianity; it is the logical next step. My study of Christianity strengthened my Islam because my research affirmed the Islamic belief in progressive revelation. What I couldn't accept about Christianity was obviously the belief in the Trinity, since it was Islam's belief in the Oneness of God that always appealed to me.

I studied Judaism a bit, but what really turned me away from it were four things: first, was the Jewish concept of arguing with God, which they believe is not only permissible but a good thing. Throughout history, the Jews have debated with God, and the name "Israel" according to Jewish texts means "the one who wrestles with God"; they believe that God came in the shape of a man, a "God-man", and wrestled with Jacob, and that Jacob defeated God and that's where the name Israel comes from. This entire concept drove me away from Judaism; I couldn't understand why Jews would oppose the idea that Jesus [as] was a god-man, if they said the same of the one Jacob wrestled. This also showed me one of the unique qualities of Islam: it is the only religion--aside from Buddhism (which doesn't have a belief in God at all)--that completely refutes the idea that God could come in the shape of a god-man, a belief to me which was just pure polytheism from the pagan religions. Furthermore, I found no other perfect description for the children of Israel than the name "those who wrestle with God". I decided I'd rather be one who submits to God (muslim), instead of one who wrestles with God (israeli).

The second issue I had with Judaism was that the Quran's accusation against them, that they wrote the religion with their own two hands, really rung true to me. I found out about what the Talmud was, and how it was canonical and placed as Judaism's main book at the level of the Hebrew Bible, even though it was not God's inspiration but the words of Jewish rabbis. This really turned me away from it.

And lastly was their rejection of Prophet Jesus [as]. I don't think Judaism could properly explain what Christianity came from, or even where Islam came from. I didn't believe that the two religions could be based on complete heresies. Progressive revelation just made more sense to me. Furthermore, I did not understand why God would reveal the religion to the Children of Israel and not all of mankind.

I believed that a religion had to be a universal one, sent to all of mankind. I think that these two beliefs: (1) the belief in the Absolute Oneness of God, and (2) the universal religion of progressive revelation, are what drove me to Islam. Islam properly explained where all the other religions came from. I did not like how Jews did not actively preach their religion to save mankind, like Christians and Muslims do. I didn't like how the Israelites had different laws than the rest of mankind, etc.

As for Hinduism, that was perhaps the religion that appealed to me the least. I found the images of the gods they worshiped--such as elephants, monkeys, and even the phallus and vagina--well, I don't want to speak bad about another's religion, but let me just say that it did not at all appeal to me. Hinduism was to me--and still is--the antithesis of Islam; no two religions could be farther apart. Plus, I guess I just had a bias going in, thinking that the Abrahamic faiths were intrinsically superior to the non-Abrahamic ones. The non-Abrahamic ones to me just seemed pagan, superstitious, etc. I'm sure that others could say the same to Abrahamic faiths, but that's just how it looked to me in my quest of religions.

Then there was Buddhism. They didn't have any theory about the existence of God. Some believe in God, whereas others don't. So I fled that religion without investigating it much, just like Hinduism. I found that the Eastern religions in general lacked both the Oneness of God concept, as well as the universal religion concept. Hindus are in India, and Buddhists in a few countries. They had no intention of calling all of mankind to them, and I needed a religion that called all of mankind. I needed a religion that not only fit for me, but one which also explained all the other religions. I wanted to know why are all these religions on earth? Why? I wanted one religion that explained away all the other religions. The idea of progressive revelation did that for me wonderfully.

Perhaps the only "religion" which gave me pause was the Bahai faith. They really played up all the strengths of Islam, and claimed to be a successor religion to Islam itself. They really played up on the concept of universal religion and progressive revelation. For example, we Muslims believe that India, China, etc. were sent prophets, and that from the divinely inspired religions, the people eventually mixed in paganism with them and came to worship what they do now. In other words, India was sent a messenger by God, but the generations thereafter added idols into the pure religion. That's why God revealed another prophet to clear up what the people had added to the religion. This is the concept of progressive revelation, whereby each faith is connected to the other.

Now the difference between Islam and the Bahai faith is that Islam only mentions by name the prophets of the Children of Israel, so it is easy to tie in Islam as the successor faith to Judaism and Christianity, since we believe in Prophet Moses and Prophet Jesus by NAME. On the other hand, we believe that India, China, etc. were sent prophets but we don't know their names. Meanwhile, the Bahai faith claims that Buddha for example is a prophet of God. So they take him by name, and thereby strongly tie Buddhism and every other religion together, thereby affirming universal religion and progressive revelation.

So I was quite intrigued by the Bahai faith. I investigated it with an open heart, and thought that maybe who knows, their prophet came after Prophet Muhammad [s]. I didn't want to close my mind to the possibility, like some Christians close their mind to the idea that Prophet Muhammad [s] came after Prophet Jesus [as]. So I investigated with an open heart.

But what drove me far far away from the Bahai faith was the fact that although they did wonderfully with my second requirement (i.e. universal faith), they failed miserably when it came to the Oneness of God concept. I strongly believe as part of the Oneness of God concept that we can only pray to God alone, not to Prophet Jesus [as], not to Prophet Muhammad [s], not to the angels, not to our ancestors, not to idols, etc. The whole concept is unity in worship to God alone: there is NOTHING worthy of worship other than God, and worship includes especially calling on for divine help. (This is why I reject Shi'ism, since they call on divine aid from Ali, instead of God. And this is no surprise, since the Bahai prophet was from a Shi'ite background in what is today the hotbed of Shi'ism.)

Anyways, I found out that Bahais pray to their prophet instead of to God *alone*. That slammed that door shut for me. Then I read even more stuff, which convinced me that they are polytheists. They erected a shrine for their prophet, and prayed to him. Perhaps the coffin in the grave for the Bahai faith for me was the fact that their prophet repeatedly claimed to be God Himself, God made manifest. They debated the "dual nature" of their prophet just like Christians debated the "dual nature" of Jesus. So to me they had fallen into the same mistake as the Christians, a belief in god-men. And I listened to all their explanations and rationalizations, to which my heart just replied "keep it stupid simple: there is no god except God." That's it. If you have to dance around that phrase with complicated explanations--three persons in one, ice water vapor, manifestations, the voice of God inside the body of man, etc etc.--well I think then it is really true what Islam says: Satan always convinces people to mix elements of polytheism into monotheism. I want pure monotheism. It's simple to understand, not complicated.

You should be able to explain the FUNDAMENTAL creed to a six year old child. If you tried to explain the concept of Trinity to a six yea old child, you'd never be able to do it. The child could not grasp it. Same with the complicated bahai concept of manifestations of God, half divine half man--both equally god and both equally men--well, the child will never understand it! Yet, I believe that children are born on the true religion, so how could they not grasp the fundamental concept? The central doctrine? So I wanted something you could explain to a six year old: every six year old understands "there is only one God"...just stick to that; don't complicate your religion, because complication is just corruption and the only reason it is complicated is because you have to create awkward justifications to "explain it away". How could it be that both Christianity and the bahai faith claim to be the standard-bearers of monotheism but then have such fuzzy concept of monotheism? It's like being a doctor and being fuzzy about medicine. A doctor should excel at medicine, if not carpentry, engineering ,etc. Likewise, a monotheism should excel in monotheism!

So I was initially interested in the Bahai faith, but when I saw the numerous quotes from their prophet calling himself God, I ran away from that religion faster than Forrest Gump. I also found out about how they literally copyrighted their religion and act like a cult, not a religion. They are a lot like Christian scientologists.

So that was my search for religion, summarized in a huge long post that probably nobody even will read, hehe. I think the one thing I really loved and still love about Islam is that it is the only religion on earth that is not named after its founder or a place. Judaism is named after Judah, Christianity after Christ, the Bahai faith after their prophet bahaullah, Buddhism after Buddha, Hinduism after Hind, etc. We are not Muhammadans or Muhammadiyyah; rather we are Muslims, which translates to "submitters (to God)", and our religion is Islam, which means "submission (to God)." Our religion is named after the Creator, not any of the creation; and this is a sign of our monotheism. Why should a religion be named after any other than God, if God is the fundamental part of religion?

We believe in progressive revelation, and that although the Laws have differed slightly throughout the ages, the fundamental creed that all prophets taught was the same: the Oneness and Unity of God. Every single prophet since the time of Prophet Adam [as] all the way to Prophet Muhammad [s] has taught the same fundamental creed: "There is no god except God." The second part--"Muhammad is the Messenger of God"--has changed throughout time, so at one time it was "Adam is the Messenger of God", and at another "Jesus is the Messenger of God", etc.--but the first part--the fundamental creed has been the same, the revolutionary and simple idea: "there is no god except God."

I want to say lastly that this post of mine contains a lot of criticisms of other religions. I didn't mean it to bash other religions; only to explain my religious quest and why Islam appealed to me over all the other religions I investigated.

And thus ends my very brief post.

**adamw1** · 02-06-2009, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by BuffedGuy

Peace be unto you, Adam.

Can you please clarify your question. You said:

Are you asking me what is Islam's view towards evolution?

Yes in a round about way because in my mind,as we evolve its becoming more clear that the end is showing us the beginning.I was just curious how Islam and indeed many other religions would answer to that?

**gst528i** · 02-06-2009, 01:53 PM

I read both your posts. Man that was a long one. While you did criticize other religion, i think it's based on your findings. Course i could argue with you about some things in your post, i overall undrestand what you message was.
Now you said about progressive revelation, and this question is ofcourse related to my previous post which you are still working on. How is it that prophets are revealed. How can a man claim to be a prophet. This is the biggest flaw i see in religion, is that there is a possiblity of a false prophet. A man with great capabilities of convincing populations he or she is a prophet. Hitler could have easily said he was a prophet with his convincing speeches. To date he is known as one of the few that can give hypnotizing speeches.
Therefore the biggest flaw in islam is prophet Muhammad ( not in an insultiong manner). I mean this in every religion that has a man as a prophet. I mean everything in islam comes from the propher muhammad i could be wrong but the quran and hadit (sp) is from him correct?
So in progressive revelation are believers to accept any man claiming to be prophets as god cannot lead mankind to the wrong path?

**BuffedGuy** · 02-07-2009, 04:06 AM

Peace be unto you, GST.

Originally Posted by gst528i

Also i have always wondered, how did the prophet mohammed claim he had word from god?

Before I answer, I need to clarify the difference between Divine Revelation (wahi) and Divine Inspiration (ilham). We Muslims believe in both, but it is crucial to understand the difference. Divine Revelation is when God reveals words to His Prophet, informs him that these are the Words of God, and then commands him to repeat them word for word, verbatim. On the other hand, Divine Inspiration is when God instills a feeling in a person's heart which causes him to act in a certain way or say something.

So in Divine Revelation, the Prophet is just a messenger--like a mailman--who simply delivers a message, without any input whatsoever in the matter. In Divine Inspiration, however, the person will use his own words, use his own personal style of writing, etc. It is a difference between God speaking directly and God inspiring another to speak (which is more indirect).

As such, Muslims believe that Divine Revelation is superior to Divine Inspiration. The Quran is considered Divine Revelation. It is in the wording of God Almighty, and completely differs from the way that Prophet Muhammad [s] speaks. Throughout this thread, I have quoted from the Quran (the Word of God) and also from Prophet Muhammad (the hadeeths). Just from a purely stylistic point of view, you can easily tell the difference. The Quran is more elegant, regal, commanding, powerful, dramatic, and thundering. Meanwhile, the Prophet's words are always very simple and straightforward. Yes, the Prophet's words were Divinely Inspired, but they were not Divinely Revealed like the Quran.

The reason I say that this is important to understand is that the Quran differs from the Hebrew and Christian Bible, in that the Jews and Christians believe that the Bible was Divinely Inspired, but not Divinely Revealed (using the definitions I gave above). For example, if you open up the Gospel of John, it is John speaking; yes, it is Divinely Inspired, in the way that the words I quote from Prophet Muhammad [s] were.

Usually when a Christian quotes a verse from John, he will not start off by saying "God said..." Rather, he will say "John said..." just like we Muslims say "Prophet Muhammad said..." when we quote from the hadeeths. But when we quote from the Quran, we say "God says..." In fact, if anyone ever said "Prophet Muhammad said" and then quoted from the Quran, we would say that such a person has negated his faith, left the folds of Islam, and become a disbeliever.

In regards to the Bible, Christians believe that "God used men with their distinctive personalities and writing styles" and that "God divinely inspired the very words they wrote" (source). But we Muslims believe that the Quran has nothing to do with the personality or writing style of the Prophet Muhammad [s]. In fact, it was completely opposite of him in many ways: the Prophet [s] was simple and straightforward sort of man, who by the way was illiterate. He [s] was not known as a good orator or speaker, but rather he [s] was very soft-spoken.

The Quran is considered by us to be the literal Word of God, with absolutely no influence whatsoever from Prophet Muhammad [s]. In fact, many verses of the Quran correct and admonish Prophet Muhammad [s]. Obviously, the Gospel of John would not address itself to John himself, no less than one would expect the Prophet Muhammad [s] to speak to himself in the hadeeths. So the author of the Quran is quite literally--in every sense of the word--God, without any partner in that. Nobody else had any part in it whatsoever; each letter is from God, with zero input from anyone else. To my knowledge, there is no other religious scripture on earth that claims this, neither from the Jews, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, etc.

So to answer your question: the Quran was Divinely Revealed to Prophet Muhammad [s] through the Arch-Angel Gabriel [as], the most honored of God's angels. Prophet Muhammad [s] was declared a Prophet of God when he was forty years old. Keep in mind that before this, neither God nor an angel had ever spoken to him; so for forty years he [s] was just an ordinary man, in that sense of the word.

The first time that the Prophet Muhammad [s] received Revelation went as follows: The Prophet [s] used to go to a cave on a mountain to meditate. One day, a voice called out to him: "Read!" The Prophet [s] looked up and there appeared to him the Arch-Angel Gabriel [as]. Prophet Muhammad [s] was stunned, and said "I cannot read." (Remember: the Prophet [s] was illiterate, as literacy back then was very rare.) The Angel embraced him and repeated: "Read!" The Prophet's reply was the same. Then Gabriel embraced him again, touched his heart, and said:

"Read in the Name of your Lord, Who created, created man from a clot congealed. Read! And your Lord is Most Bountiful, Who Has taught man by the pen, taught man that which he knew not." (Quran, 96:1-5)

(Note: You can see now why the pen is very important to us, and why I have a pen as my avatar.)

The Arch-Angel left, and Prophet Muhammad [s] was left trembling with fear. He [s] raced back home, rushed to his wife for comfort, and wrapped himself up in garments to stop the shivering. God then revealed the following verses to him:

"O you wrapped up! Arise and warn!" (Quran, 74:1-2)

In the course of the years to follow, the Arch-Angel Gabriel would deliver the message of the Quran to the Prophet Muhammad [s].

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

**BuffedGuy** · 02-07-2009, 04:16 AM

You asked a series of questions. That is the answer to the first of them. More to come, God-Willing....

By the way, tell me if you want me to make shorter posts, lol. And acknowledge when you read posts so that I know it is not in vain lol.

**Surreal** · 02-07-2009, 05:55 AM

Originally Posted by BuffedGuy

Peace be unto you all.

There is one topic I have not talked about at all in this thread, without which I think this thread is incomplete. It is the issue of the Caliphate. Muslims the world over yearn to destroy nationalism which has infected our lands. We want to end these foreign imposed boundaries, such as the imaginary boundary between Lebanon and Syria, Iraq and Kuwait, etc etc. These boundaries have destroyed the Muslim ummah (nation) by pitting brother against brother. Our leaders over us are petty tyrants who vie for nothing but worldly power and nationalistic gain.

Not only did the colonial powers impose these boundaries upon us and put despotic leaders over our heads, but they also demolished the Caliphate. Muslims yearn for a return of the Caliph, who will unite the 1.5 billion Muslims under one nation from Malaysia to North Africa. All under one God.

This is the feeling of the vast majority of Muslims in the world, and it will come to pass, God-Willing. It is our feeling that colonialism will never truly come to an end until we unite as one, all one billion of us in 50+ nation-states. It is only then that we will have the power and resources to resist occupation and oppression. Pan-Islamic unity is the only way for us to have dignity. This is what a pan-Islamic state would look like:

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

Isn't this the very same pan-islamic state (sans israel) that al qaeda and the likes are seeking to actualize?

**BuffedGuy** · 02-07-2009, 06:16 AM

Originally Posted by Surreal

Isn't this the very same pan-islamic state (sans israel) that al qaeda and the likes are seeking to actualize?

Peace be unto you, Surreal.

Most Muslims--moderates and extremists alike--want this. Keep in mind that just because Al-Qaeda wants a thing it does not mean that moderate Muslims cannot also want it. For example, Al-Qaeda wants America out of Iraq; so too do moderate Muslims. Similarly, most moderate Muslims want a return to the pan-Islamic Caliphate which was destroyed by the British colonialists. Where we differ from Al-Qaeda is in the means and methodology to bring about that dream. The extremists such as Al-Qaeda supporters are willing to kill civilians--including women and children--as well as break the covenants. Moderate Muslims on the other hand say that we must put our trust in God, respect the sanctity of law, without spreading corruption in the land like Al-Qaeda does.

Furthermore, the Al-Qaeda vision of what such a state would be like differs greatly from what moderate Muslims would want.

Hope that helps. Let me know if you have any follow-up questions or comments.

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

**Surreal** · 02-07-2009, 06:33 AM

Originally Posted by BuffedGuy

Peace be unto you, Surreal.

Most Muslims--moderates and extremists alike--want this. Just because Al-Qaeda wants a thing does not mean that moderate Muslims cannot also want it. For example, Al-Qaeda wants America out of Iraq; so too do moderate Muslims. Similarly, most moderate Muslims want a return to the pan-Islamic Caliphate which was destroyed by the British colonialists. Where we differ from Al-Qaeda is in the means and methodology to bring about that dream. The extremists such as Al-Qaeda supporters are willing to kill civilians--including women and children--as well as break the covenants. Moderate Muslims on the other hand say that we must put our trust in God, respect the sanctity of law, without spreading corruption in the land like Al-Qaeda does.

Furthermore, the Al-Qaeda vision of what such a state would be like differs greatly from what moderate Muslims would want.

Hope that helps. Let me know if you have any follow-up questions or comments.

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

Thank you for the response. Before I continue, please understand that I mean no offense and bear no hostility. However, I have been told that I have a tendency for asking questions in an overly direct fashion . . . Indeed, I feel that frankness facilitates the most open and intellectually fulfilling discussions. So please bear with me.

1) Exactly what separates the moderate Muslims from the extremists besides the latter's propensity for violence?

2) Exactly how do moderate Muslims expect countries like Russia, India and China to give up large chunks of their territory to a pan-Islamic state . . . especially without the use or threat of violence?

**BuffedGuy** · 02-07-2009, 07:23 AM

Peace be unto you, Surreal.

Originally Posted by Surreal

Thank you for the response. Before I continue, please understand that I mean no offense and bear no hostility. However, I have been told that I have a tendency for asking questions in an overly direct fashion . . . Indeed, I feel that frankness facilitates the most open and intellectually fulfilling discussions. So please bear with me.

You asked in a very courteous fashion and do not worry.

Ask away.

1) Exactly what separates the moderate Muslims from the extremists besides the latter's propensity for violence?

The most salient feature of the extremists is that they justify the killing of non-combatants (including women, children, the elderly, the priests, monks, etc.) and the breaking of the covenants.

In regards to the first issue, namely that of killing non-combatants, it takes a lot of skill to debate with them on this issue, because they will always play with words. It is similar to how Israel justifies the killing of civilians in Gaza, or how George Bush's regime danced around the Constitution and the Geneva Conventions to legalize torture. For example, George Bush's regime invented new words for what the inmates of Guantanamo would be called, in order to get around the overwhelmingly obvious prohibition under international law. So a similar thing is done by the Muslim extremists, who invent creative ways to get around the clear and emphatic Islamic prohibitions on killing non-combatants.

In regards to the second issue, namely that of the breaking of covenants, this is with regards to the issue of amaan (safe passage). In modern day usage, it refers to visas. Under Islamic law, if a Muslim government gives amaan (safe passage), i.e. a visa, to a Non-Muslim, allowing him to enter a Muslim land, then it is forbidden to touch even a hair on his body. Forget about hitting him; Prophet Muhammad [s] said it's not even allowed to revile him with one's words. As for killing them like Al-Qaeda kills foreign tourists, Prophet Muhammad [s] damned such people to hell, saying:

"The one who wrongfully kills a Non-Muslim under the pact (of safety) will not smell the fragrance of Paradise, even if its smell reached forty years of traveling distance." (Musnad Ahmad)

Similarly, under Islamic Law, if a Non-Muslim government gives amaan (safe passage), i.e. visa or even citizenship, in one of their countries--such as America--then we Muslims are religiously obligated to obey all of the conditions placed under us by this covenant. So you will see that the 9/11 hijackers got amaan (safe passage) to America, and they repaid them back by killing their people. This is utter corruption and completely forbidden in Islam. Not only can we not harm a single hair on the heads of any of them, but we must also abide by all the laws of theirs, including paying taxes and the like.

To give another example, there was an American citizen who converted to an extremist understanding of Islam, and subsequently joined Al-Qaeda to wage war against America. This was a great violation of Islamic Law; because he is a U.S. citizen, it is forbidden for him to wage war against America, to harm American soldiers, etc, even if American soldiers are committing atrocities in Islamic lands. Yes, an Iraqi citizen can--and must--fight off the invaders, but a citizen of a country is not allowed to betray his own government under which he has an agreement, i.e. covenant.

To conclude, these two issues--the killing of non-combatants and the breaking of the covenants--usually allow one to identify who is an extremist, or a person who at least has some extremist and incorrect ideas.

2) Exactly how do moderate Muslims expect countries like Russia, India and China to give up large chunks of their territory to a pan-Islamic state . . . especially without the use or threat of violence?

First, I must say that the map I showed includes parts of countries that I would not consider to be necessarily included in the Pan-Islamic union. Rather, it was just to give a general idea. So please do not take the map too literally. All I mean to say is that the majority Muslim countries should unite under one banner, instead of being separate and disunited. The issue is not about depriving Non-Muslims of their land, but rather to unite our lands like we were before the colonial onslaught.

Second, with regards to Russia, China, and India, all three countries have--and are still--committing daily atrocities against the Muslims in their lands. Tens of thousands of Chechen civilians have been butchered by the Russians:

http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/08/15/news/chech.php

Amnesty International said that Russia is committing "war crimes" against Muslim Checnya:

Chechnya – human rights under attack

“... the current level of destruction suggests that Grozny has been the target of indiscriminate, disproportionate bombardment by the Russian forces.”
Lord Judd, member of the Political Affairs Committee of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe, April 2000

The conflict in Chechnya has been characterized by widespread and credible reports that Russian forces have been responsible for violations of international human rights and humanitarian law, including "disappearances", extrajudicial executions and torture, including rape. These violations would be serious breaches of the Geneva Conventions and constitute war crimes...

Some 300,000 people, the majority of them women and children, have fled their homes to escape the fighting. As at mid-2002, approximately 160,000 remained in temporary accommodation and in camps for internally displaced people, the majority in neighbouring Ingushetia, where they faced severe overcrowding and harsh conditions...

According to reports, Russian forces have arbitrarily detained, tortured or killed thousands of civilians. Most people who are detained by Russian forces are picked up during identity checks on civilian convoys travelling from Chechnya to Ingushetia or during military raids (so-called zachistki or "clean-up" raids) on populated areas. These raids are accompanied by widespread abuses against the civilian population. Civilians, including women and children, have reportedly been abducted, subjected to rape and other forms of torture, and killed...

Far from holding the perpetrators to account, the Russian authorities are reportedly redeploying units widely believed to have been involved in human rights violations back to Chechnya for further tours of service.

http://www.amnesty.org/russia/chechnya.html

As for China, Western China is Muslim and they are being oppressed like the Tibetans. But of course Westerners could care less about Muslims. Western Chinese Muslims--the Uighurs--have been stripped of their right to freedom of religion: they are forbidden from fasting in Ramadan, women are forbidden from veils, men from growing beards, etc. According to Amnesty International, the Chinese government has committed "serious human rights violations" against the Uighurs, arbitrary arrests, and killings. According to Amnesty, not only do the Chinese oppress the Uighurs (who are Muslims), but they even forbid them from fleeing as refugees to other lands:

"China increasingly successfully used the Shanghai Cooperation Organization to pressurize neighbouring countries, including Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan, to co-operate in forced returns of Uighurs to China...where they faced the death penalty and possible execution." (Amnesty International Report)

Muslims feel marginalized when Americans talk about "free Tibet" all the time, yet are completely silent on the Uighurs.

As for India, it occupies Kashmir, Muslim land. According to Amnesty International, the Indians have created mass graves for Muslim victims, such is the scale of their massacre of Muslims:

Thousands lost in Kashmir mass graves

Hundreds of unidentified graves – believed to contain victims of unlawful killings, enforced disappearances, torture and other abuses - have been found in Indian-administered Jammu and Kashmir.

Amnesty International has urged the Indian government to launch urgent investigations into the mass graves, which are thought to contain the remains of victims of human rights abuses in the context of the armed conflict that has raged in the region since 1989.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/appeals-fo...ir-mass-graves

The fact that Muslims are being oppressed in so many places is the reason why a pan-Islamic Caliphate is necessary, to protect the Muslims from oppression and occupation.

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

**BuffedGuy** · 02-07-2009, 09:06 AM

Peace be unto you, GST.

Please make sure to read my last post before reading this one. In the last post, I talked about how the Quran was revealed to Prophet Muhammad [s]. Without reading that post I do not think you can fully appreciate this one.

Originally Posted by gst528i

How can muslims say with irrefutable proof that the quran was all the word of god.

Asking for irrefutable proof that the Quran is the Word of God is similar to someone asking for irrefutable proof that God exists. After all, if the Quran can be proven scientifically to be the Word of God, then this would mean that we could prove that God exists.

I think you need to change your parameters: instead of wanting proof "beyond a reasonable doubt" like in some criminal trial, you should rather opt for "more likely than not" which is the rule of thumb in medical malpractice cases. (Forgive the poor analogy.)

I've already explained a couple posts back about how although we can't scientifically prove God (since the very concept of faith is the belief in the unseen), we can show you the Signs of God which should be enough for the one imbued with knowledge. In fact, we consider the Quran to also be one of the Signs of God, which is why each verse is actually called ayah, which literally translates to "sign". Many people who convert to Islam do so because they read the Quran, and know it can only be from God. You cannot put the Quran in a test tube or give it a litmus test to prove it is written from God; it is just something you know when you read it. Some know it, others deny it. Those who know it become Muslims.

God says:

"And thus have We have sent down the Book to you...there are those who believe in it, and none deny Our revelations save the disbelievers. And you (O Muhammad) never recited before this any other book, nor did you write it with your right hand, for then could those who follow falsehood cast doubt. Nay, these are verses self-evident in the hearts of those imbued with knowledge, and none reject Our revelations save the wrongdoers. And they say: 'Why are not miracles sent down to him from his Lord?' Say: 'The miracles are only with God, and I am but a plain Warner.' And is it not enough for them that We have sent down to you the Book which is rehearsed to them? Verily, in it is Mercy and a Reminder to those who believe." (Quran, 29:47-51)

"Will they not then ponder on the Quran? If it had been from other than God they would have found therein much contradiction." (Quran, 4:82)

"If you are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down onto Our servant, then produce a chapter of the like thereof, and call forth your witnesses or supporters besides God, if you are truthful! But if you cannot--and of a surety you cannot--then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones, which is prepared for those who reject faith. But give glad tidings to those who believe and work righteousness, that their portion is Gardens, beneath which rivers flow." (Quran, 2:23-25)

So basically, the Quran vouches for its authenticity by saying that when you read it, its accuracy will become self-evident to a person who fits two conditions: (1) the one who not only has wisdom, but also (2) the one who ponders over it. And this is why so many people convert to Islam after reading the Quran. Having said that, others will not be moved to convert nor be convinced that it is from God, and that's ok, because as God says in the Quran:

"Surely We have revealed to you the Book with the truth for the sake of men; so whoever follows the right way, it is for his own soul and whoever errs, he errs only to his own detriment; and you are not a dictator or custodian over them." (Quran, 39:41)

If you wish to read the Quran for yourself (well, the English translation of it), I strongly advise reading Thomas Cleary's translation, which you can buy brand-new for some $10:

http://www.amazon.com/Essential-Kora...d_bxgy_b_img_c

Or if you want to buy a used one in good condition, you can get it for under $4:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listi...condition=used

I still need to reply to the remainder of your post...give me a bit of time, God-Willing.

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

**BuffedGuy** · 02-07-2009, 03:32 PM

I am going to answer the question about evolution shortly, God-Willing...

**BuffedGuy** · 02-07-2009, 03:53 PM

Prophet Muhammad [s] advised:

"Forgive him who wrongs you; join him who cuts you off; do good to him who does evil to you; and speak the truth even if it be against yourself." (Musnad Ahmad)

**amcon** · 02-07-2009, 03:58 PM

Originally Posted by BuffedGuy

I am going to answer the question about evolution shortly, God-Willing...

bro - when you answer evolution pm me and i would love to read you information.... God be with you Buffed

Thread: The Unofficial "Ask a Muslim" Thread.

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