The unofficial ask a Christian thread

[fit4ever]

i apologize if this has been asked but i just found this thread.

to me christianity has always been about a relationship, not rituals. can you please explain why catholics confess to a priest and not to the lord himself and why they pray to statues and figures?

also i have always considered myself to be a christian, and a good one at that. recently however i have been questioning my faith and sort of "exploring religion" if you will. I feel i am regressing in my faith and it hurts me. as i further my education and the more i learn the harder it becomes to accept any religion. i see the hostility, hipocracy, judgement, and division it causes but also i cannot forget the times it was there for me, God was there for me.

How does the church (Christian) view this exploring? And do you have any advice for me as i find myself at a crossroads?

You can explore different religions every day of the week and twice on Sunday if you like. Fact is, if you say you're a Christian, then your nucleus doesn't change.

[peachfuzz]

thanks for the responses guys. i appreciate you taking the time.

[D7M]

"#1 - you were protestant before ? what was the denomination?"

1. I was raised Baptist.

i have studied caths extensively... ask my polish in laws, they are both saved and still roman catholic. because they no longer have faith in a man (the pope or a priest, but faith in Christ - they also dont pray to any one else but the Father, or pratice in idol worship any more (example: black madona)) i will use dark green for buffed - he lost his three d glasses

But see, this is my point about misunderstanding Catholicism. No Catholic has "faith" (in the sense of a fiduciary faith) in the pope qua man. That has never been taught by the Catholic church, and I really, really doubt any practicing catholic would believe that. So, it is pointless to criticize a straw man.


Further, the verses you quoted don't directly answer Gza's objections. Of course God wants all men to know him.(---question answered then) But the Bible itself no where says that it (the Bible) is to be the sole rule of faith(correct and now we agree!! faith must be applied to Jesus, the perfect bible tells God word).

But, we don't agree. Do you see the issue? Of course faith must be "applied" to Jesus. No Catholic would say otherwise. The point is that you say the Bible alone (sola scriptura) is the rule of faith. But by saying that, you in fact contradict your own position, because the Bible itself does not make that claim. I have already shown you twice, verses that indicate otherwise. The most recent was post #188.

In fact, it says the opposite. It clearly states (in verses I've already listed) that there is indeed an oral tradition,(prove it- no it doesnt unless you are bound by the law I.E. jewish) and St. Peter even attests how difficult Paul's letters are to understand.(vers please)"

1. Again, see post #188.

2. "So also our brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them difficult to understand, which the ignorant and the unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures." (2 Peter 3:15-16).

The point is that the Bible itself says it is difficult to understand, and therefore, if left to human private interpretation, it will be distorted.

[D7M]

derek do you have answers to this? i ask respectfully


we are in the dispensation of what now? (hint = grace)

what happens when we recieve grace? (hint = holy spirit fills us?)

and fyi i am flaming catholics just helping people find God(and as you know acts of man, acts of tradition doesnt = saved by grace)

I'm not sure what you want an answer to, because that's not really a direct question. If you're asking if I agree, I can't answer that without asking exactly what you mean.

1. how do you understand the term "dispensation"?
2. how would you define "grace" and how is this distinct from the Holy Spirit?

I will say this, however. I don't believe in any dispensational theories. And I also believe that grace is different, though related, to "being filled with the holy spirit." A good systematic theology will distinguish the entative habit of the soul (sanctifying grace) from the presence of the holy spirit. Still, that answer is fine, as far as it goes. It is a biblical, pastoral, common sense answer, not a systematic one.

In terms of salvific works. James 2:20 "...Faith without works is dead..." is pretty clear on this. But to clarify. Catholics do not believe that "doing good works" will get you into heaven as a blanket statement. It means that good deeds, like prayers, fasting, alms giving, etc, done *in a state of grace* are meritorious. The are only meritorious when performed in a state of grace.

[GZA]

I’m very sorry there Derek… I wanted to let you just handle it because this is your thread but some of his attacks I took personally and were specifically directed at me so I’d like to give a go at defending myself :P (My responses are bold underlined, His responses are in italics and My original text is in bold)

"I think you are refering to what Catholics would call "Original Sin" and our "fall from grace". "Loosing the holy ghost" isn't exactly how we'd put it so, like derek, I didn't follow what you were talking about either until I thought about it a minute."

loss of what?

we are in the dispensation of what now? (hint = grace)

what happens when we recieve grace? (hint = holy spirit fills us?)

and fyi i am flaming catholics just helping people find God(and as you know acts of man, acts of tradition doesnt = saved by grace)

I don’t know what you’re getting at, I wasn’t arguing with your terms, you can call it what you want. I was just saying that’s what Catholics would tend to call it. Sure in a sense I can see how you would refer to it as our loss of the holy ghost, that’s just not the normative term a Catholic would usually use to refer to this doctrine is all. I wasn’t arguing with your belief as it relates to this doctrine, that’s why Catholics believe the same thing, we just call it something different.
(it is a fair "charge" you would be only fooling your self if you state that catholics read their bibles - they count on the priest to do that for them and it is tought that the "layman" cant understand the bible). (define "well informed... very inaccurate statement for 98% of caths).
I’d say the vast majority of both Protestants and Catholics aren’t very informed when it comes to knowing the bible, I don’t really see what your point is. In the Catholic Church Mr. Joe Schmo uninformed isn’t allowed to define what the Church teaches. However, there are no regulations as it relates who can start a Church as it relates to Protestantism. There are no requirements that I’ve read even a single word from the bible in order to become a Protestant pastor. The requirement to become a Catholic Pope? That you receive Gods blessing and promise that whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven. To me, a promise from God himself is a much stronger guarantee than betting my soul on the teachings of some random guy who picked up his bible one day and decided that somehow he has the authority to teach me how to save my soul.
(rediculus statement - 1 Timothy 2:4 - God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

God does not want some to understand, but others are incapable. He wants all to know the truth.
Yes, God desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, that’s why Mormons and Jehovas witnesses and the Branch Dividian Cult and anyone else you’d like to throw in there “knows the truth” according to your argument. Obviously your argument is illogical. God WANTING you to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth doesn’t necessarily mean that all men DO come to the knowledge of the truth. Why not be Hindu then? Why not become a Satanist? Don’t fool yourself, the bible is very clear about the fact that there will be those who follow the truth and those who abandon the truth.
1 John 2:19-21
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us. 20 But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all know. 21 I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and know that no lie is of the truth.
RSV
Gal 1:6-9
6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and turning to a different gospel - 7 not that there is another gospel, but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, If any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.
RSV

2 Cor 11:12-15
12 And what I do I will continue to do, in order to undermine the claim of those who would like to claim that in their boasted mission they work on the same terms as we do. 13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 So it is not strange if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness.
RSV

OBVIOUSLY the bible warns against those who teach in error so the question is how do we protect ourselves against this? I do what Jesus says to do and follow the teachings of the Church, “the pillar and foundation of the truth”. What do you do? Blindly follow some random guy who thinks he can read his bible better than the thousands of other protestants who disagree with him and think that “no” their interpretation of the bible is superior? All of that is just plain foolishness, The bible clearly tells us who to follow and who to reject. We listen to the Apostles and those who Jesus put in authority to teach his followers, we listen to the shepherds he choose for his flock, and the Church Jesus put in authority to teach and to pass down this knowledge.
John 21:15-17
15 When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord; you know that I love you." He said to him, "Feed my lambs." 16 A second time he said to him, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord; you know that I love you." He said to him, "Tend my sheep." 17 He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, "Do you love me?" And he said to him, "Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you." Jesus said to him, "Feed my sheep.
RSV
John 13:20
20 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who receives any one whom I send receives me; and he who receives me receives him who sent me."
RSV
2 Timothy 3:15-17 - The Scriptures were revealed by God to teach and instruct us in righteousness and provide us to all good works.

What????? Why didn’t you include the verse right before????
2 Tim 3:14
14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing FROM WHOM you learned it
RSV
Notice… FROM WHOM YOU LEARNED IT, as in Paul the APOSTLE … you see that Paul is Vouching BOTH for the truth of scripture AND for the truth of oral tradition IF the person has been given the authority to teach in Gods name. (and of course Paul has been given this authority) (Oh and By the way, you can find St. Paul’s Tomb under A Catholic Church in the Rome also) Sorry to Inform you, but history tells us that both Peter and Paul traveled to Rome in order to establish a Church there. Sorry to say but you are quoting from the writings of a Catholic!!! And Timothy???? History tells us he was the first BISHOP of the Catholic Church in Ephesus!!!!!

Yes I agree, the bible does contain within it the Word of God. But just because we both agree it contains the truth doesn’t mean it is easy to comprehend by just anyone who attempts to read it, If that was true then all Christians would believe the same thing, if that was true, the bible wouldn’t specifically warn against “the ignorant and unstable” who twist the scriptures to their own destruction. The Catholic viewpoint both accepts the verse I’m pointing out AND the verse you pointed out. Your viewpoint only accepts the verse you pointed out and seems to ignore the verse I pointed out. Don’t you believe the ENTIRE bible is inspired by God? Or do you just pick and choose the verses you want to believe? It is clear the bible is saying that
2 Peter 3:16
16 speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand
RSV
And yet you claim the bible is easy to understand by all?
The bible clearly says
2 Peter 3:16
the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.
RSV
And yet you claim that if just anyone attempts to read his bible that means he automatically will interpret the bible correctly???
The bible clearly warns us against following the teachings of such “ignorant and unstable people”
2 Peter 3:17
17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability.
RSV
And yet you claim that there is nothing to fear?

I’m sorry but I’d rather follow the teachings of Jesus and his Apostles and the Church Jesus founded, than follow the teachings of Joe Schmoe from down the block who just picked up his bible and proclaimed himself a pastor of Gods Church when Jesus never appointed him to such a position.

about timothy - timothy was on of the first second-generation christians. he becane a christina not because an evangelist preached a powerful sermon, or a priest did the eurqurest(sp) and tim was impressed with the tradition... BUT because his mother and his grandmother tought him the holy scriptures when he was young boy.

Oh really???? Is that what the bible says????
1 Tim 4:13-14
13 Till I come, attend to the public reading of scripture, to preaching, to teaching. 14 Do not neglect the gift you have, which was given you by prophetic utterance when the council of elders laid their hands upon you.
RSV
Take note!!!! Timothy was ORDAINED BY THE LAYING ON ON HANDS!!! He received his authority to teach from those who GAVE it to him… he didn’t just read his bible and magically he got this self proclaimed authority and appointed himself Bishop of Ephesus!!! By the way, in case you didn’t know that’s EXACTLY the same way The Catholic Church passes down its authority even today. An elder in the Church lays his hands on you. Who layed his hands on your pastor? Even if someone did, is there a direct unbroken lineage of this authority being passed down from him all the way up to Jesus and the Apostles themselves? Because that’s the way it is with the Catholic Church.


we all realize that teaching small children is an opportunity and a responsibility. Jesus wanted little children to come to him(mat 19: 13-15) like timothy's mother and grandmother, a long time a go, (eunice an lois) the lay man or woman need to read their bible so they can lead people to Christ.

Romans 1:16 - The gospel of Christ is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes.

The Gospel isn’t limited to words on a piece of paper, the gospel can be preached,
Mark 16:15
"Go into all the world and PREACH the gospel to the whole creation
RSV So really you are just proving my point, We have no argument that the Gospel saves, the question is if this gospel is limited to only the bible.

Titus 1:1-3 - God manifested (make known) His word in the message which was entrusted to Paul according to God's command.
Where’s the ACTUAL QUOTE???? Since you happen to love the King James… here goes
Titus 1:3
3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;
KJV
Yes, manifested HIS WORD (not WRITING) through PREACHING… what does this have to do with the bible????????????? Sounds like you are just proving MY point that Gods Word isn’t limited to mere words on a piece of paper.

So God wants everyone to know His will, and the inspired men revealed His will so people could know it.

Exactly… Not just any man can reveal Gods will, but those inspired by God to teach… sounds very Catholic. You must be learning!

For example, you claim "denominations mean nothing, just read your bible" but where does the bible make that statement?
thats the point where does it say denominations mean something? maybe, in revelation of Jesus Christ? the 7 churches? not names but clearly showing 7 diff churches...
)

There is a Catholic Church In San Diego and a Catholic Church in Rome and Quebec… what have you, although there are many “communities of Christians” (including the 7 listed in Revelations) if they all submit to the teachings of Jesus and the apostles then they are in the same Universal (or Catholic) Church. In the same way the Church in the Corinthians, Galatians, Philippians (and so forth) listed in the bible all accepted the authority Of Paul who wrote letters to them, Paul was one of their Shepherds, making sure they continued in the same faith and did not drift away from the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles. Now what were to happen if one of these communities of Christians decided to disregard all apostolic authority over them? What if they decided that they could interpret the bible for themselves better than those whom God Gave the authority to do so. Then they would cease to be in the same Church Jesus founded. The issue at hand is that you seem to have rejected this authority. My argument is not that we should be in the same community of Christians but that we should be united in the same “universal church” by our beliefs. Any discrepancy between our beliefs and the original teachings of the apostles is a HUGE deal.

Gal 1:9
9 As we have said before, so now I say again, If any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.
RSV

2 Cor 11:13-15
13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 So it is not strange if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.
RSV

So in that sense, denominations are very important. Only one denomination contains the full Christian truth. While the others are “accursed” according to the bible. The bible characterizes those who falsely claim to be “servants of righteousness” to actually be “servants of satan”. And you are telling me it doesn’t matter to you which servants you are following????
It's nowhere to be found.
(just showed it to you)
Sorry, try again, you failed.

So your view would therefore be considered "unbiblical" (unless of course you have a verse to show me
(just did - start and 1:1)
Sorry, try again, you failed
Most people at that time didn't even know how to read and you claim Jesus' message was "go and read your bibles"?
(really? i think Jesus' messages what the great commandment mark 12:30)
Sorry to remind you but your exact quote was “denominations mean nothing just read the bible”. But it’s nice to hear that you are moving away from this statement now in light of what I have written
The Church was given authority by Jesus Christ to teach. The Bible was written by the Church
(you know that the bible was inspired by God right? and written by the divine grace of God?)
Yes… by those MEN who were inspired BY the divine grace of God. Are you saying Moses wasn’t a man? Are you saying Paul wasn’t a man???????? Let’s not be ridiculous
for the Church using the authority it was given by Jesus
.(where doest the bible say that? wooo, ive got my work cut out with this...)

Ok… first of all you acknowledge Moses and Paul were men right? And you admit Jesus is God right? So you’re doubting that God gave Moses and Paul authority to write???? Well if you’re doubting that last piece of the puzzle then you have no reason to accept the bible as the Word of God do you?... yes you do have your work cut out for you, because in order to accept your doubt either…
1. None of the authors of the bible were human beings
2. Jesus wasn’t God
3. None of the authors of the bible were given authority by God to write his Word
You can take your pick, which of those three you want to believe if you are going to attack my last statement.
(brother i wonder you knowledge and your faith after you blasphomy statement - i will quote may God soften you ears to receive the message... with love... please except the Lord - 2 timothy 3: 16 - "All scripture is give by Inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:")
I have already accepted this message long ago, I am not the one doubting the authority of the bible, it is you who are doubting the authority of Gods Church… “may God soften your ears to receive this message”…..

You claim the bible is your only authority then why does the bible say:
John 21:25
25 But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.
RSV
You claim the bible is your only authority then why does the bible say:
2 Thess 2:15
15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the TRADITIONS which you were taught by us, either by WORD OF MOUTH or by letter.
RSV
You claim the bible is your only authority then why does the bible say:
2 Tim 2:2
2 and what you have HEARD from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.
RSV
You claim the bible is your only authority then why does the bible say:
1 Cor 11:2
2 I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you.
RSV
You claim the bible is your only authority then why does the bible say:
1 Thess 2:13
13 And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God which you HEARD from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God
RSV
You claim the bible is your only authority then why does the bible say:
2 John 12
12 Though I have much to write to you, I would rather not use paper and ink, but I hope to come to see you and talk with you face to face, so that our joy may be complete.
RSV
And:
3 John 13-14
13 I had much to write to you, but I would rather not write with pen and ink; 14 I hope to see you soon, and we will talk together face to face.
RSV
You claim the bible is your only authority and you need no guidance to interpret it then why does the bible say:
Acts 8:30-31
So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and asked, "Do you understand what you are reading?" 31 And he said, "How can I, unless some one guides me?" And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.
RSV
You claim you need no guidance to interpret the bible then why does the bible say:
Heb 5:11-12
11 About this we have much to say which is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. 12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need some one to teach you again the first principles of God's word. You need milk, not solid food
RSV
You claim you only need to follow the bible and not any leaders in the Church, then why does the bible say:
Heb 13:17
17 Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account.
RSV
You claim you don’t have to listen to any Church, just your bible. Then why does the bible say:
Matt 18:17
17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
NIV
You claim The Church has no authority over you? Then why does the bible say:
1 Cor 5:3-5
3 For though absent in body I am present in spirit, and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment 4 in the name of the Lord Jesus on the man who has done such a thing. When you are assembled, and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
RSV
You claim only the bible has authority? Then what about the MAN Paul, Bishop of the Catholic Church:
1 Tim 1:19-20
By rejecting conscience, certain persons have made shipwreck of their faith, 20 among them Hymenae'us and Alexander, whom I have delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.
RSV (so the bible itself says mere men have the power to “deliver us to Satan”, sounds like some authority to me) or how about what Peter does in this verse:
Acts 5:1-11
5:1 But a man named Anani'as with his wife Sapphi'ra sold a piece of property, 2 and with his wife's knowledge he kept back some of the proceeds, and brought only a part and laid it at the apostles' feet. 3 But Peter said, "Anani'as, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back part of the proceeds of the land?....... You have not lied to men but to God." 5 When Anani'as heard these words, he fell down and died. And great fear came upon all who heard of it. 6 The young men rose and wrapped him up and carried him out and buried him.
7 After an interval of about three hours his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8 And Peter said to her, "Tell me whether you sold the land for so much." And she said, "Yes, for so much." 9 But Peter said to her, "How is it that you have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? Hark, the feet of those that have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out." 10 Immediately she fell down at his feet and died. When the young men came in they found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband. 11 And great fear came upon the whole church, and upon all who heard of these things.
RSV (kind of hard to argue with the fact that Peter had God given authority over the Church when men are dropping like flies when our first Pope says it is so.)

[GZA]

Matt 16:18-19
18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
RSV
lets go king james not some other thing that is just a part of the bible(dont make me pull off tons of proof that what ever bible you use is not the right one- lets quote the real verse - then i will tell you the biblical meaning not what you were told by a man...)
“not what I was told by a man????” Are you a Martian or something??? Or are the translators of the King James Potatoes or something???? What are you talking about???? There are men on my side, men on your side, the only difference is that God himself vouches for the teachings of my men.

Ohhhhh!!! You mean King James… as in the guy who had an affair with the duke of Buckingham and claimed in his “divine right of kings” that he was like God in that he ruled on Gods throne on earth… that King James??? … so are you saying that the “RIGHT BIBLE” didn’t exist until 1611?????? What were those silly Jews and Apostles reading????? You should go school them on the virtues of King James magical authorized version. Even Jesus quoted directly from scriptures and he certainly wasn’t quoting from the King James version seeing as though it didn’t exist for well over 1500 years later (actually, most of the time he quoted from the Septuagint). So I guess Jesus Christ, God himself, got it wrong too????? The ancient Christians never even heard of your silly King James Version of the bible, but I guess the first “real” Christians didn’t exist until blessed King James with all his saintly virtues commissioned his version of the bible huh???? Sorry but I’ll take Jesus and The apostles, Moses and the Prophets, over your silly “most holy saint” King James any day :P So are you saying that magically the King James version is without error???????? How about the one which says "Thou SHALT commit adultery"???? Was that an error???? Any translation is just that, a translation. It’s impossible to fully and perfectly grasp the exact sense of every word which is written in an entirely different language, all we have are approximations of what the text we are translating means, as anyone who knows more than one language can tell you. There are simply some things that can’t be perfectly translated into certain languages. To think otherwise Is pretty much ignorant. You can use the King James all you want for all I care (unless we are referring to the 7 books which are missing from your bible because Martin Luther took them out). The meaning is pretty much the same between most translations most of the time. If there is a dispute, we can always refer to the Greek/Hebrew
mat 16:18 - 19
"and i say also unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock i will build my church; adn the gates of hell shal not prevail against it.","and i will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: adn whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

the rock upon which jesus would build his church has been identified as: (1) Jesus him self(his work of salvation by dying for us ont he cross)
WHAT????? That’s NOWHERE in this verse. Although, granted, Jesus is our ultimate foundation for everything (and for the Church obviously), The particular verse in question says no such thing. It only refers to Peter as being “the rock”.
(2) peter(teh first great leader in the chruch at jerusalem!!!!!!!!!)

OK

(the confession of faith that peter gave and that all subsequent true believers would give, the rock refers to peter as the leader of the chruch, his function not his personality, function of faith not works... just a peter had revealed the true identiey of Christ, so Jesus is revealing peter identity and role.
“thou art Peter, and upon this rock i will build my church” That’s what the bible says, not all your backpedaling technicalities in order to try to twist the scriptures in to saying something it doesn’t. What is peters name????
John 1:42
42 He brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him, and said, "So you are Simon the son of John? You shall be called Cephas" (which means Peter).
RSV
Cephas is Aramaic for ROCK… speaking Aramaic, Jesus could only have said one thing “you are Cepha and upon this Cepha I will build my church” who are you to doubt, twist and distort the words of Christ????? If Jesus says Peter is what Jesus will build his Church upon I believe it. Why don’t you?????
LATER PETER REMINDES CHRISTIANS THAT THEY ARE THE CHURCH BUILT ON THE FOUNDATION OF THE APOSTLES AND PROPHETS WITH (FOCUS HERE!!!) JESUS CHRIST AS THE CORNER STONE OF THE CHURCH(NOT THE POPE!!!
(that’s an illogical argument known as a false dichotomy my friend)
WANNA VERS TO BACK THAT UP? OK - 1 PETER 2:4-6, all believers are joined into this chruch by faith(not works) faith in Jesus Christ as our go between to God (Jesus is God - wanna vers for that too?) the same faith that is expressed here ephesians 2:20 and 21... about the pope he is a sinner and need salvation just like the rest of us... no disrespect)
Like I said…. OBVIOUSLY Jesus is the foundation for all of Christianity, that doesn’t change the fact that our foundation, Jesus Christ, specifically told one man that he was the foundation upon which he would build his church. Of course the Pope is a sinner and needs salvation, just like all the Apostles did. Paul sinned, do you doubt that God empowered him to write and teach infallibly in Gods name??? Or does the fact that Paul is a sinner automatically mean you are going to rip all of his writings out of the bible???? Obviously you would be arguing against your own faith and bible if you expect me to believe that the mere fact that you are a sinner and need salvation automatically means you can’t be inspired to God to teach the truth. So again… I perfectly agree with any verse you can throw at me (actually because so far I’ve already read and memorized every single one you’ve bothered to list, you’re not telling me anything new) But you have to try to doubt and twist and distort all the verses I come up with. The bible says says Jesus is the foundation and it says Peter is the foundation, I believe they both are, you believe only Jesus is “not the pope” is (that was your exact quote). Which again is an illogical false dichotomy. That’s like if I pointed a verse out that said I’m human and you said NO!!! it says here in the bible that Paul was human “not you!!!!!”. (and of course that doesn’t logically follow) Sorry but we can BOTH be human. Just like in a different sence of the word BOTH Jesus and Peter can be foundations upon which the Church is built. I accept BOTH verses of the bible, but you reject one. Now who is following the bible more faithfully??


Here Jesus is building his church and giving it the authority to teach in his name, he's not sitting around passing out bibles. As a side note, this guy Peter, whom Jesus builds his church upon... history tells us he was the first leader of the Universal Church in Rome... a Church was built upon his tomb, and today that Church (tomb included) can be found in a little known place called The Vatican. Our Pope today, he is the 265th leader of the Universal Church in Rome, directly descended from Peter(
please prove this with any thing in or out of the bible... that could be the craziest thing i have ever heard!!! so the polish pope was to0?

So are you going to doubt that 1+1=2 because it’s not in your bible??? Or that Abraham Lincoln was assassinated because it can’t be proven with your bible???? A historical fact is a historical fact, most rational people care about what history tells us and for them:


ST. IRENAEUS

"But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall . . . [point] out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition" (Against Heresies, 3:3:2 [A.D. 189]).


Gaius:

"It is recorded that Paul was beheaded in Rome itself, and Peter, likewise, was crucified, during the reign [of the Emperor Nero]. The account is confirmed by the names of Peter and Paul over the cemeteries there, which remain to the present time. And it is confirmed also by a stalwart man of the Church, Gaius by name, who lived in the time of Zephyrinus, Bishop of Rome. This Gaius, in a written disputation with Proclus, the leader of the sect of Cata-phrygians, says this of the places in which the remains of the aforementioned apostles were deposited: 'I can point out the trophies of the apostles. For if you are willing to go to the Vatican or to the Ostian Way, you will find the trophies of those who founded this Church'" (Disputation with Proclus [A.D. 198] in a fragment from Eusebius, History of the Church, 2, 25:5).

St. Agustine
In the Catholic Church . . . a few spiritual men attain [wisdom] in this life, in such a way that . . . they know it without any doubting, while the rest of the multitude finds [its] greatest safety not in lively understanding but in the simplicity of believing. . . . [T]here are many other things which most properly can keep me in her bosom. The unanimity of peoples and nations keeps me here. Her authority,
inaugurated in miracles, nourished by hope, augmented by love, and confirmed by her age, keeps me here. The succession of priests, from the very see of the apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after his resurrection, gave the charge of feeding his sheep [John 21:15–17], up to the present episcopate, keeps me here. And last, the very name Catholic, which, not without reason, belongs to this Church alone, in the face of so many heretics, so much so that, although all heretics want to be called ‘Catholic,’ when a stranger inquires where the Catholic Church meets, none of the heretics would dare to point out his own basilica or house" (Against the Letter of Mani Called "The Foundation" 4:5 [A.D. 397]).

I really could have gone on and on and on with practically unending historical data vouching for the things I have told you. (if you doubt it, next time I will) But I figured I’d just give you a taste.
(in case you didn't know, the word Catholic comes from the greek Katholikos, meaning universal). Don't believe me about Peter being the first Pope or Jesus himself founding the Catholic Church? Just read your encyclopedia, history book, or what have you... It's a historically accepted fact:
(what? who reports history? man? never rely on man only Christ... you can read that in your bible)
Moses was a man, the apostles were men, every Christian and Jew that ever existed before you was a man… without them to pass down their religious beliefs and writings you’d know absolutely nothing about Christianity. So I’m sorry to say, but everything you ever learned about Christianity was either taught to you directly by a man’s words or writings. Good luck if you think you’re only relying on Christ, you relied on Martin Luther’s decision to throw out 7 books of the bible didn’t you??? You relied on King James translators to correctly translate your bible didn’t you??? Don’t be ridiculous, we both rely on men. The only difference is that the men I choose to rely on were sent by God to teach with Gods promise that they will teach the truth as it is in heaven, the men you choose to follow weren’t sent by God and just simply appointed themselves an authority on Gods Law but God never sent them

Ezek 13:6
6 They have spoken falsehood and divined a lie; they say, `Says the LORD,' when the LORD has not sent them
RSV
2 Cor 11:12-13
12 And what I do I will continue to do, in order to undermine the claim of those who would like to claim that in their boasted mission they work on the same terms as we do. 13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ.
RSV
St. Peter, of Bethsaida in Galilee, From Christ he received the name of Cepha, an Aramaic name which means rock .Prince of the Apostles, was the first pope of the Roman Catholic Church. He lived first in Antioch and then in Rome for 25 years. In C.E. 64 or 67, he was martyred. St. Linus became the second pope." (National Almanac © 1996)
what is that crap??? sorry i will just prove you wrong...

with all due respect you now have completly discredited your self (as well as in my last post are not a person to be talking about scripture) you are very wrong...(my appoligies if i have missed something - please provide scripture) (mods please i am not flaming: just pointing out huge false truths )

"john 1: 42 - and he brought him to Jesus. and when jesus beheld him, he said "thou art simon the son of jona: thou shalt be called cephas, which is by interpertation, a stone."
So where is the argument here????? The only thing I can see is that your King James says Cephas means stone and the quote from the National Almanac says Cepha means rock….. I’ll deal with that assuming that’s your issue. Aramaic doesn’t share the same alphabet with English my friend that’s why there’s different spellings, that’s what’s known as a transliteration, attempting to phonetically reproduce the sounds you’d make using the English alphabet, there’s no one right way to do it. Kepha is the actual Aramaic word (or you can use a “c” insteak of a “k” whatever), there is however no “s” at the end. That was simply added at the end of the word Kepha in order for the Greek reader to not read the word Kepha (which ends in an a) as feminine since it is being used as the name of a man. (this would be sort of like calling me “rockeena” instead of “rocky” or “Carla” instead of “Carlos” The Aramaic actually doesn’t concern itself with the genders of words like the Greek language does so therefore the Greek writer decided to add an s at the end of the Aramaic word Kepha in order to have it make sense in the Greek language as a mans name. (there is no such word as “cephaS” in Aramaic so Cephas could not have been Peter’s name) And as it relates to the word which the King James renders “stone”, that’s really not an issue, stone, rock, whatever. The issue at hand is that Jesus could not and did not mean to differentiate the rock Jesus would build his Church upon with the “stone” that Peter was. We know this from the obvious fact that in Aramaic there is only ONE WORD for rock!!!! So Jesus must have said you are Kepha and on this Kepha I will build my church. In the language Jesus was speaking there was no room for making this differentiation. If you want to translate the word Kepha into stone, go ahead, I really don’t care. Then you have Jesus saying “you are stone and on this stone I will build my church”… regardless you can’t get away from the fact that clearly Jesus is saying that Peter is the foundation of his Church. Whether he is a rock or a stone, or a potato, Jesus says on that potato he will build his Church PERIOD.


http://www.pacinst.com/antichri.htm (--- answer to this, i will post more about this later..
So that’s the type of “history” you believe???? Sorry but an actual historian has already dealt with this topic and totally destroyed it. The man who wrote the book which is quoted over and over and over on the link you sent has pretty much been relegated to being a laughable phony and outright liar. NOBODY pays attention to any of his claims because simply put there is NO evidence for any of it. For example where he quotes Abraham Lincoln as saying “the evil Catholic Jesuits are responsible for the Civil War… because the “evil Catholics” want to take over america” which paper that Lincoln wrote is he quoting???? Which book or letter? Where is his evidence???? the only evidence is that he made this claim in his book he made money on, the same goes for every other quote you’ll find in his book. Where’s his documentation???? THE LINCOLN WRITINGS OF CHARLES P.T. CHINIQUY by Joseph George Jr. Ph.D. from the Journal of the Illinois State Historical Society February 1976 vol. 69, pp. 17-25 absolutely destroys any of Charles Chiniquy’s credibility. Why is it that historians are always on my side in this debate???? Maybe because you haven’t done your research :P Thanks for the laugh though.
this one should be fun :

the real vers:

1 tim 3: 15 - "but if i terry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and the ground of the truth."

not of the pope, or of the just the church - it "is the church of the living God" not a denomination.
That sounds just like the quote I quoted???? Where’s your huge difference except your verse uses more archaic English.
1 Tim 3:15
if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.
RSV
Sorry to tell you, but the Catholic Church wasn’t a denomination it was the ONLY Christian Church before a bunch of people started making up their own Churches in opposition to the one God established:
Catholic Church:
The largest single Christian body, composed of those Christians who acknowledge the supreme authority of the bishop of Rome, the pope, in matters of faith. The word catholic (Greek katholikos) means “universal” and has been used to designate the church since its earliest period, WHEN IT WAS THE ONLY CHRISTIAN CHURCH. (cf. Microsoft Encarta Encyclopedia)

My verse already said “the Church of the living God” That’s why I was already saying that the Catholic Church was the Church Jesus founded so what’s your point???? You say it’s not of the Pope but where does that verse say that???? Don’t “twist the scriptures to your own destruction”. The bible simply states that this Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth… if you want to claim that statement applies to ALL denominations then you are claiming the bible is lying. Are Mormons, Jehovas witnesses, Catholics, Branch Dividians, Lutherans and Baptists ALL teaching the same “TRUTH”?????? Obviously this statement can only apply to one form of Christianity because they can’t all be equally correct even on issues they disagree upon. It just so happens that NO OTHER FORM OF CHRISTIANITY EVEN EXISTED IN JESUS’ TIME EXCEPT FOR THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. So that pretty much narrows down the form of Christianity the bible is referring to as “the pillar and foundation of the truth” as being the one and only Catholic Church. Heck your beloved King James bible didn’t even exist until 1611 so we know the bible wasn’t referring to your denomination.
to be a chruch leader is a heavy responsiblity because church bleongs to the living God(not the pope).
I never said the church belongs to the pope, I even pointed out in my earlier post that Jesus calls the church he builds upon Peter “MY church”. So the question remains, why aren’t you in the Church Jesus calls his own???? Why aren’t you in the Church whom Peter was chosen the leader of? And why do you reject the man who wields his authority today (the Pope)???
church leaders should not be elected because they are popular, nor shoudl they be allowed to push their way to the top. instead the should be chosen by the church becaus of their respect for truth(the word of God, not tradition
Again, false dichotomy…. I have shown over and over that The Word of God is taught BOTH by Scripture AND oral Tradition according to the bible. Church Leaders aren’t elected because they are popular or anything else, What makes the Pope the Pope, is not any of his virtues, it’s simply because Jesus made a Promise that whatever he binds on earth will be bound in heaven. Just like Paul or Moses’ virtues had nothing to do with why they were chosen to write books of the bible. Apostles, Popes, and Prophets, all are sinners. The only reason I’ll follow any of their writings or teachings is because they are inspired by God to teach in his name.
- unless it is in the bible and you are jewish) both in doctrine and in their personal lives!!!

the lis of qualifaications for the chruch office show that living a blameless and pure life requries effort and self-discipline. all belivers, even if they never plan to be church leaders should strive to follow these guidelines because the are consistent with what God says is true and right. the strength to do so comes from what? a priest ? a pope? a confession? NO!!! from Christ and the Grace he allots us.
“For all men have sinned and failed to come close to the glory of God”, NO MAN is “good” enough to be blameless, no man good enough to “earn” the ability to teach correctly with Gods inspiration. It is a Gift from God which he gives to sinners, Popes, Apostles, and Prophets alike. Problem is, Jesus never said he’d be giving this gift to those who reject the authority of the Church he founded, with Bishops and Priests, an entire hierarchy. Where are your Bishops and Priests??? Can’t find any??? Then likely, your Church isn’t the one spoken of in the New Testament.
What does the bible consider the pillar and foundation of the truth? The bible? or the church?
answer ^^^^^ Christ!!!
Did you miss something???????????
1 Tim 3:15
if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.
RSV
and that, my friend, is why a Catholic would disagree with you on your opinion about not needing to follow any Church and just reading your bible on your own and figuring out what it means based on your own opnions

the holy spirit reveals the scriptures to us... under your system a man does... all men are sinners and as filthy as rags(and those are some filthy rags))
Sinning has nothing to do with it, as stated earlier the apostles sinned too… but they were still able to teach the Word of God faithfully so you have no point. As it relates to your claim that the “holy spirit” reveals the scriptures to you…. That’s what the Mormons claim also… why is the “holy spirit” lying to one group but not the other????? Something tells me that neither of you are in contact with the Holy Spirit when it comes to infallibly interpreting scripture. What… does the Holy Spirit have 35,000 different versions of the truth???? The devil might… but sorry, there is only ONE real TRUTH.

[GZA]

Jesus Christ specifially founded a Church and gave it the autority to teach his followers and specifially vouched for it's teachings "whatever you bind on earth wil be bound in heaven"
(that vers refers to crown you earn on earth... do you know what the crowns are and how to earn them? you should cause that is what you will through at Jesus' feet after you are judged... hint their are seven of them)

Where does this verse say anything about a crown???? Please don’t “twist the scriptures to your own destruction”.
"the pillar and foundation of the truth"
(again men are sinners, their for can not be full of truth except from faith in God, do you believe that only the pope can have faith?)
OHHHHH so if you sin you cant teach the word of God faithfully????????? You better throw out your bible then :P Because it was written by a bunch of sinners

[B], not to mention the fact that the bible specifally warns against trying to interpret the bible for yourself if you were given no authority to do so.[/B](give me verses)

I gave you verses below

There are some 35,000 different types of Protestant Christianity out there all proclaiming to truly know what the bible is saying and yet they all dissagree with each other. All the while they claim the task of understanding the bible is so easy and apparent but how come, at best, only one out of 35,000 of their denominations could have possibly gotten it all right?
(satan is strong)

Ohhhh and your particular denomination just so happens to be the one that got it right??? Based on what??? Your pastors study harder??? Are holier??? Well my Church leader has a promise from Jesus Himself that “the gates of hell will not prevail against” my church… yes satan is strong… that’s why Jesus decided to protect his church… not yours… but the Catholic Church… the ONLY Christian church in existence at the time Jesus made this promise. And now that you admit that tons of these denominations are in error I thought it was you who was saying that denominations mean nothing?????????? But now you are admitting that your denomination might be the difference between following God and following Satan.

A Catholic would choose to follow the Churches authority when it comes to understanding and interpreting the bible, because apparently it can't be that obvious and easy when there's so many differing arguing opinions among Protestants as it relates to what the bible really says, to put it another way here's what the bible has to say about it:

2 Peter 3:16-17
16 speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability.
RSV
wow, you bible is soooo offff !!! is it even christian???
UHH yeah… I have about 20 different types… that particular version is the Revised Standard Version a PROTESTANT translation!!!! If you want to claim Protestants aren’t Christian then I guess you’d be attacking yourself seeing as though YOU are the Protestant here :P
1 peter 3:16 - "having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accues you good conversation in christ." meaninig - you bible in not even close!!! you man not be able to keep people from attacking you, but you can at least stop supplyin them with ammunition!!! you are sounding like mickey mouse taught you the bible... sorry if that is mean... sorry. as long as you do what is right(pray, read the bible, bible study - go to a good church) accusation will be empty adn will only ebmarrass them (not your self).
OHHHH I’m SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO embarrassed… perhaps it’s Mickey Mouse who forgot to teach you about the fact that you are quoting the WRONG BOOK!!!! Haha!!!! That was FIRST peter you quoted… but I clearly quoted SECOND peter!!!! In your “magical King James” version it reads as follows:
2 Peter 3:16-17
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
KJV
I guess it’s you who embarrassed yourself there huh???????? :P


2 Peter 1:19-20
20 First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation.
RSV
did i do something in reguarding to prophecy??? or were we talking about bibles and churches... why did you quote that vers?
Although, yes, specifically this verse relates to prophecies in Scripture, the point is that obviously these Prophetic verses were written down… but NOT for just anyone to pick up to interepret… this relates to Just scripture general as I illustrated in SECOND peter :P AND, specifically, prophecies of scripture as is illustrated here. Besides, entire books of the bible are Prophetic in language, such as many of the writings of the Prophets (I guess that’s why they are called prophets huh :P)
send me your address(kidding dont do that)so i can send you a real bible... im tired of retyping the correct verses - well, i shouldnt be this has been a very good bible study for me... (lol i guess if you read this you to !!!)
You think I don’t have a King James Version of the bible???? I most absolutely do.. I’m just logical and rational as it relates to what a translation is. NO translations are perfect renderings of what is written in a completely different language, sorry to inform you. So I’m open to using most translations of the bible, and if there is a discrepancy, we can call on the Hebrew/Greek to sort things out, In fact I’ve been using PROTESTANT versions of the bible pretty much exclusively in making my points.correct vrs
2 peter 1:19 "we have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereonto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in ta dark place, untill the day dawn, and the day star arise inn you harts:" you vers is not even close to that!!!
Umm…. Did you see the little 20 before my verse…you only quoted verse 19 :P… it goes like this in your “magical King James”
2 Peter 1:20
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
KJV
so what that says is : - ) see christ is the day sat, and when he returns(rapture), he will shine in his full glory. untill that day we have SCRIPTURE as a lamp, adn the wholy spriti to illuminate scripture for us(not man) and guide us as we seek the truth, or as we seek Jesus. for more on Christ as the day star ... see ... luke 1:78, ephesians 5:14, revelation 2:28 and 22:16 - in gen as well what was it that led moses day and night?

vrs 20 same book
Bla bla bla… that wasn’t the verse I was referring to
"knowing this first (not -First of all you must understand this), that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretatin.(not -hat no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation.)." see the difference? the changes are subtle like the devil - like he was to eve in the garden subtlely tricking her to eat... eat the wrong fruit - i think you are eating the wrong fruit... (actually i know it)
Ok… here goes :P the word in question
According to Strongs Concordance:
idios (id'-ee-os); of uncertain affinity; pertaining to self, i.e. ONE’S OWN; by implication, private or separate
and according to Thayer’s Greek Lexicon (definitions)
idios--
pertaining to oneself, ONE’S OWN, belonging to oneself
I have no problem rendering it “ONE’S OWN” or “Private” because both terms attempt to grasp what idios means. When I read the King James Version the meaning doesn’t change to me… what are you saying??? That prophecies of scripture CAN be of “one’s own” interpretation but not of one’s “private” interpretation???? How does that even make sense???? The meaning is basically one and the same. Sorry to burst your bubble. You do realize that the Pope knows ancient Greek and Hebrew right???? The Catholic Church doesn’t have to rely on English translations of the bible in order to define it’s doctrines. In fact some of the most Prominent experts in New testament Greek on earth are Catholic. Not to mention the fact that if you went to Greece you’d find that only six one thousandths of one percent of the population is Protestant while more than 97 percent of the population is either Eastern Orthodox or Catholic (both religions happen to agree on about 99 percent of everything. Mary, the Eucharist, Priests Bishops, Confessions, Apostolic authority, You name it. That’s because the Eastern Orthodox church split away from the Catholic, not primarily for Doctrinal reasons, but mainly because they didn’t like some guy in the west ruling over people in the east so it was more of a political move. Not one I agree with, but my point is, why among people who can actually read and understand the New Testament as their native tounge are practically NONE Protestant?????? To top it off, pretty much 100 percent of the Christians who lived in Greece, Jerusalem, you name it, pretty much practically every Christian on earth (save for a few brief heretical movements here and there which no longer exist) was CATHOLIC before about 1,000 A.D. Who knows how to interpret Ancient Greek better than an ancient Greek??????? So why were they all Catholic???? Sort of makes you sound funny for trying to uphold your precious King James version as so enlightening. Is the King James superior to the oldest and most ancient Greek manuscripts known to man??? Because that’s what us Catholics were reading. Heck, that’s what we were reading AND writing for that matter.
So in other words, you can choose to crown yourself your own personal pope
(no i dont want to go to hell
Are you claiming all popes go to hell??? The Apostle Peter went to hell, according to which bible???? Actually, Pope Clement (our fourth Pope by most accounts) is specifically spoken of in the bible as going to heaven
Phil 4:2-3
3 And I ask you also, true yokefellow, help these women, for they have labored side by side with me in the gospel together with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.
RSV
and decide for yourself what the bible says. But a Catholic would choose to listen to the man Jesus Christ specifically vouches for when it comes to correctly teaching the Word of God
(show me this in the bible... cause if you refering to an apostle i would love to meet him!!!! and dont say the pope - he is just a man - unless you can show me some doctrine?).
Since you grant that Peter the Apostle was given this power by Jesus Christ then all I have to do is illustrate that this power gets passed down through the ages right? Sounds pretty easy to me… remember the verse about the elders laying their hands upon timothy in order to ordain him??? The elders were passing down their power… here’s more verses to illustrate…
Matt 23:1-3
Then said Jesus to the crowds and to his disciples, 2 "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat; 3 so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice.
RSV
Note that at the time of the new testament Moses has been dead for how long??? And yet Jesus is telling us that the scribes and Pharisees teach on the seat “cathedra” of Moses!!!! Jesus affirms that Moses’ authority had been passed down through the ages, why not the authority of Peter??? Pay attention to these verses, they are parallel…
Isaiah: And I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open
Mattew: I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
RSV
Here Jesus is making a clear parallel reference to the verse in Isaiah… now let’s read what’s written before hand to get the context….
Matt 16:18-19
18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
RSV
Here the context is obvious (we’ve dealt with this verse many times) now what does the parallel verse have to say that might shed some light on this verse???? First of all (I hope I don’t go over your head with this) Jesus was “King of the Jews” of the Davidic line… just as the power of the King is passed down as an office the power of queen mother is passed down (such as the verse in revelation speaking of the mother of Jesus as having a crown in heaven). In case you didn’t know, The queen of a kingdom as far as Jews were concerned was NOT the wife because, simply put, at times the Jewish king was allowed to have many wives. The King of the Jews’s mother was queen Just as Catholics regard Mary as queen. To top it off the king had sort of a prime minister who spoke for the king when the king wasn’t around. This verse relates specifically to this office:
Isa 22:19-22
I will thrust you from your OFFICE, and you will be cast down from your station. 20 In that day I will call my servant Eli'akim the son of Hilki'ah, 21 and I will clothe him with your robe, and will bind your girdle on him, and will commit your AUTHORITY to his hand; and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. 22 And I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David; he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open
RSV
So you see here… just as the Kings power gets passed down (and did all the way down from David to Jesus), Jesus uses this parallel verse to illustrate that Peter’s position is the same position Eli'akim had in this verse in Isaiah. Eli'akim, just like Peter, spoke for the king of the Jews when the King was not around. Isiaiah CLEARLY states that this position is an OFFICE that gets passed down (as is occurring in this verse) and the same would go for Peter’s position. To top it off, Eli'akim is called “father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and the house of Judah” in the same way our Pope is “father to Jesus’ Kingdom” (actually the word Pope comes from the Latin word for father :P
Our Pope. That's why we put tradition on equal footing with Scripture
(prove that in the bible. tradition of man = scripture)
UMM… weren’t you reading… I listed a good five or so verses, I didn’t say “tradition of man” though I said “tradition”. The tradition I’m speaking of came from Jesus and the Apostles and is “of God”
, because Jesus Christ himself says BOTH are inerrant
(where?)
2 Thess 2:15
So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter
RSV
And a myriad of other quotes...Pay attention… these have already been quoted in the past.
However, I never read in the bible that he vouches for your particular interpretation of scripture (or mine for that matter), so to play it safe, I'll stick with the teachings of the Pope and the Catholic Church, the church Jesus Christ calls his own. ("build MY church") Isn't Jesus God? Isn't God perfect? So who are you to tell him that he made a mistake in choosing Catholicism as his own church?
(he didnt - you or the pope is adding that in there...)
The verse is in the bible…
Matt 16:18
you are Peter, and on this rock I will build MY church
RSV
And which Church was built upon Peter??? Find that Church and you’ll find Jesus’ Church… Good thing we have a TON of historical data showing that Only the Catholic Church can even come close to claiming Peter for themselves, Heck, your Church didn’t even exist at the time! Not for a good 1,500 years later (at least!!!).
I say all these things respectfully, because I have noted that you seem pretty set against the beliefs of the Catholic Church
yes and no - i believe some people can get saved and go to heaven and be in the catholic church - but, as you have shown the doctrine is more pagan (tradition) than christian).

If you still have a problem with tradition then you have a problem with the Word of God which CLEARLY STATES that we are to follow the traditions we were taught by the Apostles. So is the bible pagan?????
It made me wonder if anyone has ever bothered you to inform you as to the imense amount of evidence that you are up against if you claim you can attack it. To attack a teaching of The Church is to attack the teachings of the Pope
(yes it is and that is why with the bible i can crush it...easily... men will fail you (men = pope, pope is a sinner and needs salvation)),
So has Paul failed you and Moses???? Throw out your bible then because they are sinners who need salvation
to attack a teaching of the Pope is to attack a teaching of Jesus Christ himself.
(not even close - i will prove this tomorrow - gladly - hope you have time to check verses tomorrow cause im going to show you personally how to read the bible and God will inspire you hart(if it is not hardend) to see the truth... i will pray for both of us...)
So far, you haven’t shown me anything. I am familiar with every verse you’ve mentioned and considered them all BEFORE deciding to become Catholic. It’s nice that you believe you are the one who’s so well informed.
Luke 6:42
how can you say to your brother, `Brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye,' when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take out the speck that is in your brother's eye.
RSV
Both of us have our shortcomings, and none of us are perfect. So analyze yourself and consider where you may be going wrong also. As it relates to technicalities, I guarantee you’ll have trouble finding any weaknesses in my arguments. But I’m far from being your ideal Christian. Perhaps you will make it to heaven and I won’t, I do not claim to be superior or this and that in the eyes of God. But I do have an inkling that perhaps I’m better versed on this subject than you are, but that means nothing in terms of my or your salvation. Perhaps we should just agree to disagree and forget about this topic, you clearly aren't paying attention to what I've written and I've clearly already heard everything you are going to say to me and have dealt with it in the past to the point that I'm convinced there is simply no evidence you can come up with that I can't deal with. So let's just drop this, Just don't attack the Catholic Church, because Derek wasn't attaking your church. I must have read about five questions attacking Dereks Catholic Beliefs specifically before I jumped into the conversation. Maybe we should just return this to a simple "ask a Christian" forum because these technicalities are lost on most people reading this. You're not going to convince me and I'm not going to convince you. So let's not ruin it for everyone else.

[amcon]

You can explore different religions every day of the week and twice on Sunday if you like. Fact is, if you say you're a Christian, then your nucleus doesn't change.

well, not really many types of groups call them selves christian johava witnesses, mormans and others and they dont believe in Jesus Christ, and clearly are not christians...

[amcon]

"#1 - you were protestant before ? what was the denomination?"

1. I was raised Baptist. well that is good you at least cant loose your salvation.

i have studied caths extensively... ask my polish in laws, they are both saved and still roman catholic. because they no longer have faith in a man (the pope or a priest, but faith in Christ - they also dont pray to any one else but the Father, or pratice in idol worship any more (example: black madona)) i will use dark green for buffed - he lost his three d glasses

But see, this is my point about misunderstanding Catholicism. No Catholic has "faith" (in the sense of a fiduciary faith) in the pope qua man.(so not true!! my wife's family - all polish, european roman catholic- they all pray to the pope and the black madona and all the saints...) That has never been taught by the Catholic church, and I really, really doubt any practicing catholic would believe that. So, it is pointless to criticize a straw man. (who is the straw man???)


Further, the verses you quoted don't directly answer Gza's objections. Of course God wants all men to know him.(---question answered then) But the Bible itself no where says that it (the Bible) is to be the sole rule of faith(correct and now we agree!! faith must be applied to Jesus, the perfect bible tells God word).

But, we don't agree. Do you see the issue? Of course faith must be "applied" to Jesus. No Catholic would say otherwise.(again, this is just not true - if you pray to someone you have faith that they will "pass" the message along to the right God... that is not biblical) The point is that you say the Bible alone (sola scriptura) is the rule of faith(no i did not). But by saying that, you in fact contradict your own position, because the Bible itself does not make that claim. I have already shown you twice, verses that indicate otherwise. The most recent was post #188. no idea where you got that from - (faith is given to us from Grace... we can pray for it to)

In fact, it says the opposite. It clearly states (in verses I've already listed) that there is indeed an oral tradition,(prove it- no it doesnt unless you are bound by the law I.E. jewish) and St. Peter even attests how difficult Paul's letters are to understand.(vers please)"

1. Again, see post #188.

2. "So also our brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them difficult to understand, which the ignorant and the unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures." (2 Peter 3:15-16).

first i will say again the bible you use is poor at best, i would use it the next time you need a fire started, can i recommend one to you? king james version and a life applications study bible... the real verses 2 peter 15 - 16 15 - "and account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath writtten unto you;" 16 - "as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which the that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriputres, unto their onw destruction."

15 - 16 = some history that is important for all of us to understand this - by the time of peter writing, paul lettters already had widespread reputation. the early church was thinking of them as God inspired... peter and paul had very diff backgrounds and perrsonalities, and then preached from diff vewpoints, paul emphasized salvation by grace, by what ??? grace. NOT LAW... or traditions!!! false religions and teachers intentionally misused pauls writings by twisting them (example: the "bible" you use... is twisting word to make the true meaning diff) to condone lawlessness, no doubt this made them popular with the ideas "they are eaiser to read", fine they are eaiser but wrong... in romans 6:15 - paul said "what then ? shall we sin. becaus we are not under the law. but under grace? God forbid." peter warns his readers to avoid hte mistake of htese wicked teachers by growing in the knowledge of Jesus!!!!!! the better we know jesus, the less atractive false teaching becomes... dont fall to the guies of you cant under stand the bible!!! that lets satan in to blur the truth. of coarse if you read it you would know that... that is to say if you read the BIBLE not some version of it.

The point is that the Bible itself says it is difficult to understand, and therefore, if left to human private interpretation, it will be distorted.

(so then who interperts it for you God? or man? because i rely on the Holy Spirit to guide my reading - as well as my pastor, my bible study, other reading of schollars, and PRAYING)

o by the way - 2 peter vers 1:21 this is how the bible was writen... "for the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." not by the church

and not by traditions - vers 2nd peter 1:16 - "for we have not followed cunning devised fables, when we made known un to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty."

not by fables handed down by traditions

[amcon]

I'm not sure what you want an answer to, because that's not really a direct question. If you're asking if I agree, I can't answer that without asking exactly what you mean.

1. how do you understand the term "dispensation"?
2. how would you define "grace" and how is this distinct from the Holy Spirit?

I will say this, however. I don't believe in any dispensational theories. And I also believe that grace is different, though related, to "being filled with the holy spirit." A good systematic theology will distinguish the entative habit of the soul (sanctifying grace) from the presence of the holy spirit. Still, that answer is fine, as far as it goes. It is a biblical, pastoral, common sense answer, not a systematic one.

In terms of salvific works. James 2:20 "...Faith without works is dead..." is pretty clear on this. But to clarify. Catholics do not believe that "doing good works" will get you into heaven as a blanket statement. It means that good deeds, like prayers, fasting, alms giving, etc, done *in a state of grace* are meritorious. The are only meritorious when performed in a state of grace.

that is just not the case i spent years in several diff chatholic churches and it is tought that good works will get you into heaven - never was it taught that it was from accepting Jesus as you Lord and saviour...never ever.

faith with out works is dead - refers to earning crowns and true faith will motivate works, how ever if you have the works and no faith - you motive should be checked (example - i kill a father of a family (im not saved) and i then go and help the family by giving them money anonymously... good work but that doesnt wash away my "sin"...

[fit4ever]

well, not really many types of groups call them selves christian johava witnesses, mormans and others and they dont believe in Jesus Christ, and clearly are not christians...

Understood. Same could be said for those who choose to acknowledge God when time permits in their schedules. Yet, they clearly advertise themselves to be dedicated Christians.

A lot of people confuse religion with spirituality as well. Funny thing is, people all too often exert way too much time, emotion and energy preaching their religion to others and usually spend way too little time adhering to it.

[FallenWyvern]

well, not really many types of groups call them selves christian johava witnesses, mormans and others and they dont believe in Jesus Christ, and clearly are not christians...

Huh, last time I checked both groups mentioned believe in Jesus Christ. Where do you get this stuff?

[amcon]

[QUOTE=GZA;4429104]I’m very sorry there Derek… I wanted to let you just handle it because this is your thread but some of his attacks I took personally and were specifically directed at me so I’d like to give a go at defending myself :P (My responses are bold underlined, His responses are in italics and My original text is in bold)

"I think you are refering to what Catholics would call "Original Sin" and our "fall from grace". "Loosing the holy ghost" isn't exactly how we'd put it so, like derek, I didn't follow what you were talking about either until I thought about it a minute."

loss of what?

we are in the dispensation of what now? (hint = grace)

what happens when we recieve grace? (hint = holy spirit fills us?)

and fyi i am flaming catholics just helping people find God(and as you know acts of man, acts of tradition doesnt = saved by grace)

I don’t know what you’re getting at, I wasn’t arguing with your terms, you can call it what you want. I was just saying that’s what Catholics would tend to call it. Sure in a sense I can see how you would refer to it as our loss of the holy ghost, that’s just not the normative term a Catholic would usually use to refer to this doctrine is all. I wasn’t arguing with your belief as it relates to this doctrine, that’s why Catholics believe the same thing, we just call it something different. that is fair... after all we are all under Christ
(it is a fair "charge" you would be only fooling your self if you state that catholics read their bibles - they count on the priest to do that for them and it is tought that the "layman" cant understand the bible). (define "well informed... very inaccurate statement for 98% of caths).
I’d say the vast majority of both Protestants and Catholics aren’t very informed when it comes to knowing the bible, I don’t really see what your point is. In the Catholic Church Mr. Joe Schmo uninformed isn’t allowed to define what the Church teaches. However, there are no regulations as it relates who can start a Church as it relates to Protestantism. There are no requirements that I’ve read even a single word from the bible in order to become a Protestant pastor.yes they are i can look for them but it is def defined The requirement to become a Catholic Pope? That you receive Gods blessing and promise that whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven. To me, a promise from God himself is a much stronger guarantee than betting my soul on the teachings of some random guy who picked up his bible one day and decided that somehow he has the authority to teach me how to save my soul.if any person does that run, you need to rely on your reading and faith in the Holy Ghost to "inspire" with that knowledge
(rediculus statement - 1 Timothy 2:4 - God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

God does not want some to understand, but others are incapable. He wants all to know the truth.
Yes, God desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, that’s why Mormons and Jehovas witnesses and the Branch Dividian Cult and anyone else you’d like to throw in there “knows the truth” according to your argument. Obviously your argument is illogical. God WANTING you to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth doesn’t necessarily mean that all men DO come to the knowledge of the truth(and that reason is because of relying on man to teach you (or me) the scriptures). Why not be Hindu then? Why not become a Satanist? Don’t fool yourself, the bible is very clear about the fact that there will be those who follow the truth and those who abandon the truth. (i am def not fooled by that and it is very sad to watch that type of person fall)
1 John 2:19-21 (you bible doesnt represent the word of God well, it twist the verses and takes away from the meaning and the truth - you should really get a kjv bible)
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us. 20 But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all know. 21 I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and know that no lie is of the truth.
RSV
Gal 1:6-9
6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and turning to a different gospel - 7 not that there is another gospel, but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, If any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.
RSV(it read very dif in the kjv bible - and has a stronger meaning)

2 Cor 11:12-15
12 And what I do I will continue to do, in order to undermine the claim of those who would like to claim that in their boasted mission they work on the same terms as we do. 13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 So it is not strange if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness.
RSV

OBVIOUSLY the bible warns against those who teach in error so the question is how do we protect ourselves against this?(easy read the bible your self, bible studies, a pastor or priest, theologians, other biblical readings of people that have been recomended to you and most of all payer) I do what Jesus says to do and follow the teachings of the Church, “the pillar and foundation of the truth”.(i follow no man - the first day in my church the pastor said "who here relies on me to get them to Heaven? half the room raised their hand and he said "you all going to hell" my pastor is the first to tell you read your bible and question every thing you hear from the pulpit... amen!!) What do you do? Blindly follow some random guy who thinks he can read his bible better than the thousands of other protestants who disagree with him and think that “no” their interpretation of the bible is superior?(funny you say that you are learning about God from a man, that is hipocritical) All of that is just plain foolishness, The bible clearly tells us who to follow and who to reject. We listen to the Apostles and those who Jesus put in authority to teach his followers, we listen to the shepherds he choose for his flock, and the Church Jesus put in authority to teach and to pass down this knowledge.(where does it say the church should teach and pass down this knowledge?)
John 21:15-17
15 When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord; you know that I love you." He said to him, "Feed my lambs." 16 A second time he said to him, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord; you know that I love you." He said to him, "Tend my sheep." 17 He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, "Do you love me?" And he said to him, "Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you." Jesus said to him, "Feed my sheep.
RSV (so what is you point with that?)
John 13:20
20 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who receives any one whom I send receives me; and he who receives me receives him who sent me."
RSV
2 Timothy 3:15-17 - The Scriptures were revealed by God(not the church) to teach and instruct us in righteousness and provide us to all good works.

this vrs actually talks about "and that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus." faith in Jesus... not the bible or man or the church - children were tought the bible... so it cant be that hard

what does that vrs refer to when it says Good works? refering to vrs 17 - in our zeal for the truth of scripture, we must neve for get its purpose- to equip us to do good to others, we shold not sutdy God wrod simply to increas our own knowledge or to prepare us to win arguments. we should not even study it primarily to learn how to save our own souls, most peopls are saved beore they begin intensively studing the bible, we should study scripture so that we will know how to do Christ's work in the world. our knowledge of Gods wrod is not useful unless it leads us to good works, after our salvation.

What????? Why didn’t you include the verse right before????
2 Tim 3:14
14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing FROM WHOM you learned it
RSV

we are surounded with false teachings - that is why one (you and me) need to go back to the basics and read the bible for our selves and believe no man version of the bible or a church or a "profit" we must learn to read it for our selves... and it is really easy


Notice… FROM WHOM YOU LEARNED IT, as in Paul the APOSTLE … you see that Paul is Vouching BOTH for the truth of scripture AND for the truth of oral tradition IF the person has been given the authority to teach in Gods name. (and of course Paul has been given this authority) (Oh and By the way, you can find St. Paul’s Tomb under A Catholic Church in the Rome also) Sorry to Inform you, but history tells us that both Peter and Paul traveled to Rome in order to establish a Church there. Sorry to say but you are quoting from the writings of a Catholic!!! And Timothy???? History tells us he was the first BISHOP of the Catholic Church in Ephesus!!!!!(catholic history tells you that - what does the german history say about the holicost?)

Yes I agree, the bible does contain within it the Word of God. But just because we both agree it contains the truth doesn’t mean it is easy to comprehend by just anyone who attempts to read it, If that was true then all Christians would believe the same thing,(bigest reason imo they dont is they read "new revised" versions tanted with satans bluring truth) if that was true, the bible wouldn’t specifically warn against “the ignorant and unstable” who twist the scriptures to their own destruction. The Catholic viewpoint both accepts the verse I’m pointing out AND the verse you pointed out. Your viewpoint only accepts the verse you pointed out and seems to ignore the verse I pointed out. Don’t you believe the ENTIRE bible is inspired by God? Or do you just pick and choose the verses you want to believe? It is clear the bible is saying that
2 Peter 3:16
16 speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand(hard to understand yes, not you cant understand - is it easy to understand grace? or salvation? is it easy to understand that the "Sin" we need to be saved from was handed down from adam adn eve? hard to believe but not impossible)
RSV
And yet you claim the bible is easy to understand by all?
The bible clearly says
2 Peter 3:16
the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.
RSV 3:16 refers to the idea of the times that if we are now saved by Grace and not by the 600+ jewish laws - that means we can sin and still be saved by Grace because of forgiveness... for most at that time it seemed hard to understand. not revering directly to hard to understant the writings... several times it states that children were and must be thought scripture... for an example my children go to christian schools and they know more verses and stories and parrables then i did at the same age - they have the abilities. so we can deduct with reason the "hardness"didnt directly apply to understanding as ability to comprehend the readings just to totally how to apply them correctly.

And yet you claim that if just anyone attempts to read his bible that means he automatically will interpret the bible correctly???
The bible clearly warns us against following the teachings of such “ignorant and unstable people”
2 Peter 3:17
17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability. (you are reading that wrong and trying to streach the meaning, the point you are making shows the ill of your ways... "lawless men" during the time people may have switched to christianity because of Grace and total forgiveness -Grace was way eiaser than the law of moses... the warning was if you are saved then you must show it in your life - not becarefull how you read the bible)
RSV
And yet you claim that there is nothing to fear?

I’m sorry but I’d rather follow the teachings of Jesus and his Apostles and the Church Jesus founded, than follow the teachings of Joe Schmoe from down the block who just picked up his bible and proclaimed himself a pastor of Gods Church when Jesus never appointed him to such a position.(Jesus didnt appoint the pope, Jesus appointed the Church to teach of Christ)

about timothy - timothy was on of the first second-generation christians. he becane a christina not because an evangelist preached a powerful sermon, or a priest did the eurqurest(sp) and tim was impressed with the tradition... BUT because his mother and his grandmother tought him the holy scriptures when he was young boy.

Oh really???? Is that what the bible says????
1 Tim 4:13-14
13 Till I come, attend to the public reading of scripture, to preaching, to teaching. 14 Do not neglect the gift you have, which was given you by prophetic utterance when the council of elders laid their hands upon you.
RSV

yes really, you bible is wrong!!! it actually is the reason why you know so little of the true Christ... bro here is the actuall vers - get a kjv bible!!!!

13- "till i come. give attendance to reading(my word "yes, you reading"), to exhortation, to doctrine."

focus on this!!!! 14 "neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery."
Take note!!!! Timothy was ORDAINED BY THE LAYING ON ON HANDS!!!

He received his authority to teach from those who GAVE it to him(yes by prophecy... but what was he given - the same thing you and i have i hope salvation (i know i have it but have to wonder since you doctrine in so diff than what the real bible says))… he didn’t just read his bible and magically he got this self proclaimed authority and appointed himself(lol ... no, he didnt appoint him self - it was all from God) Bishop of Ephesus!!! By the way, in case you didn’t know that’s EXACTLY the same way The Catholic Church passes down its authority even today(yes that is the problem they are not God, thus they dont have that power ). An elder in the Church lays his hands on you. Who layed his hands on your pastor? Even if someone did, is there a direct unbroken lineage of this authority being passed down from him all the way up to Jesus and the Apostles themselves? (yes it is called the holy spirit working in the life of a believer, and remember i dont (as you do)rely on man to dictated if i am saved or not, or to educated me (that is to say solely educatem me, he is one source )Because that’s the way it is with the Catholic Church.


we all realize that teaching small children is an opportunity and a responsibility. Jesus wanted little children to come to him(mat 19: 13-15) like timothy's mother and grandmother, a long time a go, (eunice an lois) the lay man or woman need to read their bible so they can lead people to Christ.

Romans 1:16 - The gospel of Christ is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes.

The Gospel isn’t limited to words on a piece of paper, the gospel can be preached,
Mark 16:15
"Go into all the world and PREACH the gospel to the whole creation
RSV So really you are just proving my point, We have no argument that the Gospel saves, the question is if this gospel is limited to only the bible.

Titus 1:1-3 - God manifested (make known) His word in the message which was entrusted to Paul according to God's command.
Where’s the ACTUAL QUOTE???? Since you happen to love the King James… here goes
Titus 1:3
3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;
KJV
Yes, manifested HIS WORD (not WRITING) through PREACHING… what does this have to do with the bible????????????? Sounds like you are just proving MY point that Gods Word isn’t limited to mere words on a piece of paper.

So God wants everyone to know His will, and the inspired men revealed His will so people could know it.

Exactly… Not just any man can reveal Gods will,(God is no respect of person) but those inspired by God to teach… sounds very Catholic.(no it sound biblical - and it is nice to know something you have picked up is from God not twisted from satan - i still have hope for you - lol) You must be learning!

For example, you claim "denominations mean nothing, just read your bible" but where does the bible make that statement?
thats the point where does it say denominations mean something? maybe, in revelation of Jesus Christ? the 7 churches? not names but clearly showing 7 diff churches...
)

[U][B]There is a Catholic Church In San Diego and a Catholic Church in Rome and Quebec… what have you, although there are many “communities of Christians” (including the 7 listed in Revelations) if they all submit to the teachings of Jesus and the apostles then they are in the same Universal (or Catholic) Church. In the same way the Church in the Corinthians, Galatians, Philippians (and so forth) listed in the bible all accepted the authority Of Paul who wrote letters to them, Paul was one of their Shepherds, making sure they continued in the same faith and did not drift away from the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles. Now what were to happen if one of these communities of Christians decided to disregard all apostolic authority over them? What if they decided that they could interpret the bible for themselves better than those whom God Gave the authority to do so. Then they would cease to be in the same Church Jesus founded. The issue at hand is that you seem to have rejected this authority. My argument is not that we should be in the same community of Christians but that we should be united in the same “universal church” by our beliefs. Any discrepancy between our beliefs and the original teachings of the apostles is a HUGE deal.

Gal 1:9
9 As we have said before, so now I say again, If any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.
RSV

(this prove my point the bible you use is very flawed and you believe it, thus you doctrine is not of the Lord and his word it is of the pope the man at the top of the catholic church... a sinner, who need grace to enter heaven)

[amcon]

2 Cor 11:13-15
13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 So it is not strange if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.
RSV

i will show in this thread or in another about this when i have some time... where satan will be working, after the rapture

So in that sense, denominations are very important. Only one denomination contains the full Christian truth. While the others are “accursed” according to the bible. The bible characterizes those who falsely claim to be “servants of righteousness” to actually be “servants of satan”. And you are telling me it doesn’t matter to you which servants you are following????[/B][/U]

you are making me blush - when twist my words to prove your point , so stop, your making my head grow... bro - listen dont put words in my mouth or deduct something from nothing - but, i guess that is why catholics seemed a good fit for you - twisting the truth.

It's nowhere to be found.
(just showed it to you)
Sorry, try again, you failed. what? showed what you can twist my words...? or you can twist the word of God

So your view would therefore be considered "unbiblical" (unless of course you have a verse to show me
(just did - start and 1:1)
Sorry, try again, you failed sure you think that your bible is tainted with darkness not of Christ... what is the name of you bible?
Most people at that time didn't even know how to read and you claim Jesus' message was "go and read your bibles"?
(really? i think Jesus' messages what the great commandment mark 12:30)
Sorry to remind you but your exact quote was “denominations mean nothing just read the bible”. But it’s nice to hear that you are moving away from this statement now in light of what I have written agian you are trying to twist my words - denominations mean nothing!!! you just need to read you GOOD bible
The Church was given authority by Jesus Christ to teach. The Bible was written by the Church
(you know that the bible was inspired by God right? and written by the divine grace of God?)
Yes… by those MEN who were inspired BY the divine grace of God. Are you saying Moses wasn’t a man? Are you saying Paul wasn’t a man???????? Let’s not be ridiculous what? more twisting?
God inspired those MEN to write essentually what God told them to say. and yes if you didnt know (from how you were taught) they were just men, God loved them very much but they were just men
for the Church using the authority it was given by Jesus
.(where doest the bible say that? wooo, ive got my work cut out with this...)

Ok… first of all you acknowledge Moses and Paul were men right? And you admit Jesus is God right? So you’re doubting that God gave Moses and Paul authority to write????(wow, did you take your meds today?) Well if you’re doubting that last piece of the puzzle then you have no reason to accept the bible as the Word of God do you?... yes you do have your work cut out for you, because in order to accept your doubt either…
1. None of the authors of the bible were human beings
2. Jesus wasn’t God
3. None of the authors of the bible were given authority by God to write his Word
You can take your pick, which of those three you want to believe if you are going to attack my last statement.
(brother i wonder you knowledge and your faith after you blasphomy statement - i will quote may God soften you ears to receive the message... with love... please except the Lord - 2 timothy 3: 16 - "All scripture is give by Inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:")
I have already accepted this message long ago, I am not the one doubting the authority of the bible, it is you who are doubting the authority of Gods Church… “may God soften your ears to receive this message”…..

priests aYou claim the bible is your only authority(the bible is the Word of God, as for authority before you said i thought it was a pastor, not it is the bible ... humm you seem very confused about what you are saying and seem to just be spouting off to try to win something - you cant not against God) then why does the bible say:
John 21:25
25 But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.
RSV
You claim the bible is your only authority then why does the bible say:
2 Thess 2:15
15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the TRADITIONS which you were taught by us, either by WORD OF MOUTH or by letter.
RSV()2nd thes was for the clearing up of confusion of the second coming of Christ... and cause you bible is tainted you wouldnt relize that the traditions is not of men but of the teachings of the apostles
You claim the bible is your only authority then why does the bible say:
2 Tim 2:2
2 and what you have HEARD from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.(jsut to clear this up for like the 15th time the bible is the Word of God, and is perfect, so any one who is or has any athority is reading the bible and then teaching, and the learning of the scriptures comes from several things, most importantly is wisdom given by the Holy Ghost, no one now, has ever just know the bible with out studying it)
RSV
You claim the bible is your only authority then why does the bible say:
1 Cor 11:2
2 I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you.(because you bible is wrong and that is not the vrs... the vrs actually says ordinances not traditions that you are pointing to of the catholic church... )
RSV
You claim the bible is your only authority then why does the bible say:
1 Thess 2:13
13 And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God(how would you recieve it ? read it?) which you HEARD from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God
RSV your bible is twisting the true words and they say that it is preaching of the gosphel not that we are handing down some of man traditions
You claim the bible is your only authority then why does the bible say:
2 John 12
12 Though I have much to write to you, I would rather not use paper and ink, but I hope to come to see you and talk with you face to face, so that our joy may be complete. (cause, he was acutally missing the church, the letter he was writing was showing how much he loved them and would like to teach in person. the letter was to warn against false teachings - lol nice try!!! )
RSV
And:
3 John 13-14
13 I had much to write to you, but I would rather not write with pen and ink; 14 I hope to see you soon, and we will talk together face to face.
RSV
(ditto)

You claim the bible is your only authority and you need no guidance to interpret it then why does the bible say:(you are puting words in to my mouth and actually lieing about it...)
Acts 8:30-31
So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and asked, "Do you understand what you are reading?" 31 And he said, "How can I, unless some one guides me?" And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.
RSV (this is getting redundently boring to correct you over and over - phlip found the ethiopian man reading the scriptures, and he tool advantage of this opportunity to explani the gospel, or the good news. asking if the man understood what he was reading philip #1 followed the spirits leading, #2 began the discussion from where the mans was, immersed in the phophecies of isaiah, and #3 explained how Jesus Christ fulfilled isaih's prophecies. when we share the Gospel. we should start where the other perosns concers are focused. then we can bring the Gospel to bear on those concerns) so he only asked do you understand to see what where he was in his walk with Christ.
You claim you need no guidance to interpret the bible then why does the bible say:
Heb 5:11-12
11 About this we have much to say which is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. 12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need some one to teach you again the first principles of God's word. You need milk, not solid food (that is refering to new immature christians, and at that point these were new jewish christians - and they were hard of hearing cause they did not know Jesus as their Christ... no sold food cause it would have been to hard to digest, not because the message of the Lord was hard, but because the Faith was hard to come by)
RSV
You claim you only need to follow the bible and not any leaders in the Church, then why does the bible say:(their you go contuining putting words in to my mouth - tisk tisk ing - not that i want to win that is a little sarcasim - i do want to help win you over to God though)
Heb 13:17
17 Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. (refers to the government over us)
RSV
You claim you don’t have to listen to any Church, just your bible. Then why does the bible say:
Matt 18:17
17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
NIV(niv sucks so lets move on... but, i will say this bring them in front of the church is because they will most likely be just men - because they read the bible for them selves)
You claim The Church has no authority over you? Then why does the bible say:(when did i say the church has no authority over me? again you are twisting my words and puting new words in my mouth - meds should be taken daily )
1 Cor 5:3-5
3 For though absent in body I am present in spirit, and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment 4 in the name of the Lord Jesus on the man who has done such a thing. When you are assembled, and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
RSV
You claim only the bible has authority? Then what about the MAN Paul, Bishop of the Catholic Church:(where doses it say that in the bible?)
1 Tim 1:19-20
By rejecting conscience, certain persons have made shipwreck of their faith, 20 among them Hymenae'us and Alexander, whom I have delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.
RSV (so the bible itself says mere men have the power to “deliver us to Satan”, sounds like some authority to me)(some men? or specific men? cause a pastor could be "some man"... but the pope according to catholics is the man) or how about what Peter does in this verse:
Acts 5:1-11
5:1 But a man named Anani'as with his wife Sapphi'ra sold a piece of property, 2 and with his wife's knowledge he kept back some of the proceeds, and brought only a part and laid it at the apostles' feet. 3 But Peter said, "Anani'as, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back part of the proceeds of the land?....... You have not lied to men but to God." 5 When Anani'as heard these words, he fell down and died. And great fear came upon all who heard of it. 6 The young men rose and wrapped him up and carried him out and buried him.
7 After an interval of about three hours his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8 And Peter said to her, "Tell me whether you sold the land for so much." And she said, "Yes, for so much." 9 But Peter said to her, "How is it that you have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? Hark, the feet of those that have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out." 10 Immediately she fell down at his feet and died. When the young men came in they found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband. 11 And great fear came upon the whole church, and upon all who heard of these things.
RSV (kind of hard to argue with the fact that Peter had God given authority over the Church when men are dropping like flies when our first Pope says it is so.) [/QUOTE]

lol, you agian are putting words in to the scripture - that is a sin that you will account for in heaven (and i really wonder if you will even see that judgment from the side of salvation) please do to things #1 - get a kjv bible #2 - pray to God that you have salvation and have him reviel it to you clearly
#3 - read you bible, get in to a bible study, and really listen and take notes from your priest and back up what he says in your studies

mat 23:9 - call no man father... yet what do you call a priest?

matt 6:7 - 14 = "but when you pray, use not vain repetions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking" the bible is calling your prayers "heathonous" = catholic church - not my words but Gods words... please explain that one to us

acts 29 - 31 = 29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.(wow, ever been in a catholic church? what do you see... it is not biblical)
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repentthis was to the greeks, they had no concept judgment, they worshiped many gods(catholics it would be saints) paul didnt hold any truth back from them)
31 because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.(only one man was appointed this job - it was Jesus not the pope - unless he was appointed from a dif dark side? and is just claiming to have those powers...humm more to come on that)

james 1:26 - mans religion is in vain - man being from a man made system of traditions. not of traditions of preaching of the gospel or the good word - does the catholic church preach or do they do a eurcherest? is eurcherest in the bible? geneflexing? calling a man father? lol... that is easy to figure out

judges 17 shows the troubles of priests and of graven images...

[amcon]

2 Cor 11:13-15
13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 So it is not strange if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.
RSV

i will show in this thread or in another about this when i have some time... where satan will be working, after the rapture

So in that sense, denominations are very important. Only one denomination contains the full Christian truth. While the others are “accursed” according to the bible. The bible characterizes those who falsely claim to be “servants of righteousness” to actually be “servants of satan”. And you are telling me it doesn’t matter to you which servants you are following????[/B][/U]

you are making me blush - when twist my words to prove your point , so stop, your making my head grow... bro - listen dont put words in my mouth or deduct something from nothing - but, i guess that is why catholics seemed a good fit for you - twisting the truth.

It's nowhere to be found.
(just showed it to you)
Sorry, try again, you failed. what? showed what you can twist my words...? or you can twist the word of God

So your view would therefore be considered "unbiblical" (unless of course you have a verse to show me
(just did - start and 1:1)
Sorry, try again, you failed sure you think that your bible is tainted with darkness not of Christ... what is the name of you bible?
Most people at that time didn't even know how to read and you claim Jesus' message was "go and read your bibles"?
(really? i think Jesus' messages what the great commandment mark 12:30)
Sorry to remind you but your exact quote was “denominations mean nothing just read the bible”. But it’s nice to hear that you are moving away from this statement now in light of what I have written agian you are trying to twist my words - denominations mean nothing!!! you just need to read you GOOD bible
The Church was given authority by Jesus Christ to teach. The Bible was written by the Church
(you know that the bible was inspired by God right? and written by the divine grace of God?)
Yes… by those MEN who were inspired BY the divine grace of God. Are you saying Moses wasn’t a man? Are you saying Paul wasn’t a man???????? Let’s not be ridiculous what? more twisting?
God inspired those MEN to write essentually what God told them to say. and yes if you didnt know (from how you were taught) they were just men, God loved them very much but they were just men
for the Church using the authority it was given by Jesus
.(where doest the bible say that? wooo, ive got my work cut out with this...)

Ok… first of all you acknowledge Moses and Paul were men right? And you admit Jesus is God right? So you’re doubting that God gave Moses and Paul authority to write????(wow, did you take your meds today?) Well if you’re doubting that last piece of the puzzle then you have no reason to accept the bible as the Word of God do you?... yes you do have your work cut out for you, because in order to accept your doubt either…
1. None of the authors of the bible were human beings
2. Jesus wasn’t God
3. None of the authors of the bible were given authority by God to write his Word
You can take your pick, which of those three you want to believe if you are going to attack my last statement.
(brother i wonder you knowledge and your faith after you blasphomy statement - i will quote may God soften you ears to receive the message... with love... please except the Lord - 2 timothy 3: 16 - "All scripture is give by Inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:")
I have already accepted this message long ago, I am not the one doubting the authority of the bible, it is you who are doubting the authority of Gods Church… “may God soften your ears to receive this message”…..

priests aYou claim the bible is your only authority(the bible is the Word of God, as for authority before you said i thought it was a pastor, not it is the bible ... humm you seem very confused about what you are saying and seem to just be spouting off to try to win something - you cant not against God) then why does the bible say:
John 21:25
25 But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.
RSV
You claim the bible is your only authority then why does the bible say:
2 Thess 2:15
15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the TRADITIONS which you were taught by us, either by WORD OF MOUTH or by letter.
RSV()2nd thes was for the clearing up of confusion of the second coming of Christ... and cause you bible is tainted you wouldnt relize that the traditions is not of men but of the teachings of the apostles
You claim the bible is your only authority then why does the bible say:
2 Tim 2:2
2 and what you have HEARD from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.(jsut to clear this up for like the 15th time the bible is the Word of God, and is perfect, so any one who is or has any athority is reading the bible and then teaching, and the learning of the scriptures comes from several things, most importantly is wisdom given by the Holy Ghost, no one now, has ever just know the bible with out studying it)
RSV
You claim the bible is your only authority then why does the bible say:
1 Cor 11:2
2 I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you.(because you bible is wrong and that is not the vrs... the vrs actually says ordinances not traditions that you are pointing to of the catholic church... )
RSV
You claim the bible is your only authority then why does the bible say:
1 Thess 2:13
13 And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God(how would you recieve it ? read it?) which you HEARD from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God
RSV your bible is twisting the true words and they say that it is preaching of the gosphel not that we are handing down some of man traditions
You claim the bible is your only authority then why does the bible say:
2 John 12
12 Though I have much to write to you, I would rather not use paper and ink, but I hope to come to see you and talk with you face to face, so that our joy may be complete. (cause, he was acutally missing the church, the letter he was writing was showing how much he loved them and would like to teach in person. the letter was to warn against false teachings - lol nice try!!! )
RSV
And:
3 John 13-14
13 I had much to write to you, but I would rather not write with pen and ink; 14 I hope to see you soon, and we will talk together face to face.
RSV
(ditto)

You claim the bible is your only authority and you need no guidance to interpret it then why does the bible say:(you are puting words in to my mouth and actually lieing about it...)
Acts 8:30-31
So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and asked, "Do you understand what you are reading?" 31 And he said, "How can I, unless some one guides me?" And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.
RSV (this is getting redundently boring to correct you over and over - phlip found the ethiopian man reading the scriptures, and he tool advantage of this opportunity to explani the gospel, or the good news. asking if the man understood what he was reading philip #1 followed the spirits leading, #2 began the discussion from where the mans was, immersed in the phophecies of isaiah, and #3 explained how Jesus Christ fulfilled isaih's prophecies. when we share the Gospel. we should start where the other perosns concers are focused. then we can bring the Gospel to bear on those concerns) so he only asked do you understand to see what where he was in his walk with Christ.
You claim you need no guidance to interpret the bible then why does the bible say:
Heb 5:11-12
11 About this we have much to say which is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. 12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need some one to teach you again the first principles of God's word. You need milk, not solid food (that is refering to new immature christians, and at that point these were new jewish christians - and they were hard of hearing cause they did not know Jesus as their Christ... no sold food cause it would have been to hard to digest, not because the message of the Lord was hard, but because the Faith was hard to come by)
RSV
You claim you only need to follow the bible and not any leaders in the Church, then why does the bible say:(their you go contuining putting words in to my mouth - tisk tisk ing - not that i want to win that is a little sarcasim - i do want to help win you over to God though)
Heb 13:17
17 Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. (refers to the government over us)
RSV
You claim you don’t have to listen to any Church, just your bible. Then why does the bible say:
Matt 18:17
17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
NIV(niv sucks so lets move on... but, i will say this bring them in front of the church is because they will most likely be just men - because they read the bible for them selves)
You claim The Church has no authority over you? Then why does the bible say:(when did i say the church has no authority over me? again you are twisting my words and puting new words in my mouth - meds should be taken daily )
1 Cor 5:3-5
3 For though absent in body I am present in spirit, and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment 4 in the name of the Lord Jesus on the man who has done such a thing. When you are assembled, and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
RSV
You claim only the bible has authority? Then what about the MAN Paul, Bishop of the Catholic Church:(where doses it say that in the bible?)
1 Tim 1:19-20
By rejecting conscience, certain persons have made shipwreck of their faith, 20 among them Hymenae'us and Alexander, whom I have delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.
RSV (so the bible itself says mere men have the power to “deliver us to Satan”, sounds like some authority to me)(some men? or specific men? cause a pastor could be "some man"... but the pope according to catholics is the man) or how about what Peter does in this verse:
Acts 5:1-11
5:1 But a man named Anani'as with his wife Sapphi'ra sold a piece of property, 2 and with his wife's knowledge he kept back some of the proceeds, and brought only a part and laid it at the apostles' feet. 3 But Peter said, "Anani'as, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back part of the proceeds of the land?....... You have not lied to men but to God." 5 When Anani'as heard these words, he fell down and died. And great fear came upon all who heard of it. 6 The young men rose and wrapped him up and carried him out and buried him.
7 After an interval of about three hours his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8 And Peter said to her, "Tell me whether you sold the land for so much." And she said, "Yes, for so much." 9 But Peter said to her, "How is it that you have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? Hark, the feet of those that have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out." 10 Immediately she fell down at his feet and died. When the young men came in they found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband. 11 And great fear came upon the whole church, and upon all who heard of these things.
RSV (kind of hard to argue with the fact that Peter had God given authority over the Church when men are dropping like flies when our first Pope says it is so.) [/QUOTE]

lol, you agian are putting words in to the scripture - that is a sin that you will account for in heaven (and i really wonder if you will even see that judgment from the side of salvation) please do to things #1 - get a kjv bible #2 - pray to God that you have salvation and have him reviel it to you clearly
#3 - read you bible, get in to a bible study, and really listen and take notes from your priest and back up what he says in your studies

mat 23:9 - call no man father... yet what do you call a priest?

matt 6:7 - 14 = "but when you pray, use not vain repetions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking" the bible is calling your prayers "heathonous" = catholic church - not my words but Gods words... please explain that one to us

acts 29 - 31 = 29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.(wow, ever been in a catholic church? what do you see... it is not biblical)
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repentthis was to the greeks, they had no concept judgment, they worshiped many gods(catholics it would be saints) paul didnt hold any truth back from them)
31 because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.(only one man was appointed this job - it was Jesus not the pope - unless he was appointed from a dif dark side? and is just claiming to have those powers...humm more to come on that)

james 1:26 - mans religion is in vain - man being from a man made system of traditions. not of traditions of preaching of the gospel or the good word - does the catholic church preach or do they do a eurcherest? is eurcherest in the bible? geneflexing? calling a man father? lol... that is easy to figure out

judges 17 shows the troubles of priests and of graven images...

[amcon]

Understood. Same could be said for those who choose to acknowledge God when time permits in their schedules. Yet, they clearly advertise themselves to be dedicated Christians.

A lot of people confuse religion with spirituality as well. Funny thing is, people all too often exert way too much time, emotion and energy preaching their religion to others and usually spend way too little time adhering to it.

agreed!!

[amcon]

Huh, last time I checked both groups mentioned believe in Jesus Christ. Where do you get this stuff?

just because i say i am positive on aas doesnt mean i use it... and if i do may be what i call aas is not really aas... example prohormones

(cut and paste - the important part is to understant that jehovahs witntesses are not of the bible and do not accept the truths of the true bible they actually have re writen it to thier own likeing - they say they are christian but under their own claim they are christian - the bible say much to show they are not of God thus not Christians - they are fakes )Jehovah’s Witnesses are controlled by a "Governing Body" which they claim is the "faithful and discreet slave" spoken of at Mathew 24:45. This group consists of 10 to 15 mature men that, Jehovah’s Witnesses are told, have direct guidance from God. The Governing Body in turn instructs followers with this guidance through the pages of the Watchtower and other publications. Jehovah’s Witnesses are told by this "Governing Body" that Scripture alone is insufficient to understand the things of God. One needs the Watchtower Society and the literature it publishes to properly understand the Bible. ("Jehovah God has also provided his visible organization, his "faithful and discreet slave," made up of spirit-anointed ones... Unless we are in touch with this channel of communication that God is using, we will not progress along the road to life, no matter how much Bible reading we do. Watchtower, December 1, 1981 p.27) They are the instruments God is using to teach the world the deeper things of the scriptures. People are not to think for themselves but instead submit to the Watchtower Society teachings. (" But a spirit of independent thinking does not prevail in God’s organization, and we have sound reasons for confidence in the men taking the lead among us. Watchtower September 15,1989 p. 23) Jehovah's Witnesses believe they are the only people on earth that are serving God and the only ones that will be saved. They dare not question the teachings of the Watchtower Society; one who questions the Watchtower Society is considered to be weak in faith and could be disfellowshipped.

mormans are much much easier to discredit - because they actually admit that they do not belive in our Lord Jesus Christ - Hinckley says Mormons Believe in a Different Jesus

"In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints 'do not believe in the traditional Christ.' 'No, I don't. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times. He together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages.'" (LDS Church News Week ending June 20, 1998, p.7 )

that where i get it from... do you believe every thing you hear ? cause if you do i have some suppliments for you they are real cheap and you put on 50 lbs of pure muscle ... lol (dont get to upset im just busting you balls a little - because you said last time you checked - you didnt check cause if you did in 60 seconds you would know some of the truth)

have you ever read the bible? gone to church? no reason, just wondering

[FallenWyvern]

Dude...

You said they don't believe in Jesus Christ. They both claim that they do believe in Jesus Christ.

Do you know even what you are talking about?

Anybody that knows anything would know that the official name of Mormons is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah's_Witnesses
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chu...ter-day_Saints

[amcon]

Dude...

You said they don't believe in Jesus Christ. They both claim that they do believe in Jesus Christ.

Do you know even what you are talking about?

Anybody that knows anything would know that the official name of Mormons is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah's_Witnesses
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chu...ter-day_Saints

you can call your self arnold but that doesnt make you a body builder... read what i wrote and that will explain more...

and i def know what i am talking about... 100%

http://www.carm.org/religious-moveme...ifferent-jesus

http://contenderministries.org/mormonism/comparison.php

http://www.leaderu.com/offices/micha...mormonism.html read this one just the frist sentence

the mormans them selves say that they dont believe in Christ of the Bible... so where do you get what you are thinking from - are you a morman? cause if you are you are a bad one didnt you get you monthly new letter? - (and that prob would be a good thing lol)

[amcon]

# 'Is the Mormon church a Christian denomination?' NO. Mormonism is not Christian because it denies some of the essential doctrines of Christianity, including: 1) the deity of Christ, 2) salvation by grace, and 3) the bodily resurrection of Christ. Furthermore, Mormon doctrine contradicts the Christian teaching of monotheism and undermines the authority and reliability of the Bible. The evidence for these statements is documented in section 3 below.

here i will post it for you

[FallenWyvern]

I think we are only talking semantics.

You said they didn't believe in Jesus Christ.

They say they do.

I am not a Mormon.

[FallenWyvern]

Technically, Muslims believe in "Jesus Christ". Maybe not your "Jesus" but they believe in Jesus.

[D7M]

Gza, if you're reading this (since I can't pm you), feel free to go ahead and take over.

I'll step in once in a while when I feel the need. Otherwise, this thread is yours.

I honestly don't have the motivation to keep going back and forth with Amcon for 10 pages.

It seems like you do, and you're doing a fine job.

[peachfuzz]

Can a Christian believe in evolution?

If sin is the cause of death...then did death occur before sin?

[D7M]

If sin is the cause of death...then did death occur before sin?

I'll answer this one first because, frankly, it's more interesting to me.

So, the question is would Adam and Eve have been immortal in the garden of eden?

There are primarily two camps on this question:

1. yes, they would have been immortal since they were infused with the habitual gift of sanctifying grace and concomitantly beheld God in a natural state of contemplation. This is generally the position of the medieval Franciscans (Bonaventure, Scotus).

2. A Thomist (following St. Thomas Aquians) would argue that while both the above are true (the possession of habitual sanctifying grace and natural contemplation of the divine essence), it would be contrary to nature for man to be immortal in this earthly state (since death, by definition, is the separation of the soul from the body)

Fransisco Suarez (d. 1620) had a variation on #2, to the effect that they would in fact die, but their death would be a sort of special dispensation from pain and sickness that accompany death as we now know it. It would be something similar to Enoch's "translation" into heaven.

did this answer your question?

[amcon]

Technically, Muslims believe in "Jesus Christ". Maybe not your "Jesus" but they believe in Jesus.

maybe we are talking simantics but muslims believe in Jesus but not as a Christ... and i cant think about a good annalogy to explain but here goes and explination...

it would be like when i raise my children up i call the color blue, green. and now they call the color blue... green. even though they believe what i told them it was wrong... the two religions are wrong and they might as well call the person they are talking about bob or tom cause it is not Jesus Christ.

it is all confusing i know but the articles i posted above do a much better job of explaining(you dont need to read it all to get the jist)

[amcon]

Can a Christian believe in evolution?

If sin is the cause of death...then did death occur before sin?

a christian can believe in evolution, i will go in two directions with this one

ok - the bible says we will be judged for our actions on earth, so, once you accept Christ as you saviour your going to heaven... now if you want to believe in evolution (as in the big bang theory) as how the earth came about - you will be judged for that in the end. because it goes against God creation

second - yes evolution exsits, for an example dogs were bread in to all dif sub speicies - that is called evolution. this evolution is not the idea of lets say the big bang theory

As for sin being cause of death - yes, tuff question to answer (tuff for me) tuff because - satan was made perfect, his job was to cover the throne of God and let Gods light out over heaven(satan was actually embedded with jewels and musical instroments) however, satan wanted to be God and that is why he was cast to earth... clarence larken is very versed in this area and i have studied him as of late... i suggest you google dispensational truth and it will be answered beyond a doubt... i will go on - that was where the sin nature came from. so death before sin- humans i will say no... and for animals yes

if you google death before sin - you will get both arguments - you can decied for you self - what matters is are you going to heaven?

[amcon]

I'll answer this one first because, frankly, it's more interesting to me.

So, the question is would Adam and Eve have been immortal in the garden of eden?

There are primarily two camps on this question:

1. yes, they would have been immortal since they were infused with the habitual gift of sanctifying grace and concomitantly beheld God in a natural state of contemplation. This is generally the position of the medieval Franciscans (Bonaventure, Scotus).

2. A Thomist (following St. Thomas Aquians) would argue that while both the above are true (the possession of habitual sanctifying grace and natural contemplation of the divine essence), it would be contrary to nature for man to be immortal in this earthly state (since death, by definition, is the separation of the soul from the body)

Fransisco Suarez (d. 1620) had a variation on #2, to the effect that they would in fact die, but their death would be a sort of special dispensation from pain and sickness that accompany death as we now know it. It would be something similar to Enoch's "translation" into heaven.

did this answer your question?

solid answer!!

[GZA]

Amcon… you haven’t responded to everything I posted so far so before I respond to everything I’ll let you finish your rebuttal first… but so far I have noted that you have added a few more topics onto the list as it relates to your quotes from scripture attempting to attack the Church…. I have responses for those as follows:

#1 - get a kjv bible #2 - pray to God that you have salvation and have him reviel it to you clearly
#3 - read you bible, get in to a bible study, and really listen and take notes from your priest and back up what he says in your studies


Where does the bible say I need a kjv bible??????????????? NOWHERE
Where does the bible say that I NEED to go to bible study???????? NOWHERE
Is bible study profitable? Is reading the bible a good thing? Sure. But is it necessary for salvation??????????????? Nope!!!!!!!!!!! Do you have any idea how many illiterate People there are that have lived through the centuries?????? Are they all doomed to hell?????????? Don’t be ridiculous :P


mat 23:9 - call no man father... yet what do you call a priest?

You never called your dad father??? Do you forbid your own children to refer to you as a father????? Let’s not be silly… you are clearly misinterpreting the bible, If your interpretation of this verse is correct then the bible contradicts itself and if it does that then it’s not the word of God so you should start being hindu or something.. :P
Gen 45:8
8 So now it was not you that sent me hither, but God: and he hath made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house, and a ruler throughout all the land of Egypt.
KJV

Job 29:16
16 I was a father to the poor: and the cause which I knew not I searched out.
KJV

Isa 22:21
and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah.
KJV
Wow you better go tell God that he was wrong!!!! How silly of him to declare that a mere man is a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem!!!! Doesn’t God read his bible???? Oh wait… maybe he just doesn’t interpret it the same way Protestants do!!!! That’s right because Jesus said HIS church is the one founded upon Peter… and we both know that’s the only Church founded upon Peter is the Catholic Church!!! :P So why would he listen to your interpretation of scripture when it’s obviously wrong and God himself does not follow it. :P

2 Kings 2:11-12
Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
12 And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father
KJV

2 Kings 6:21
And the king of Israel said unto Elisha, when he saw them, My father, shall I smite them? shall I smite them
KJV

Acts 7:2
2 And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran
KJV

Rom 9:10
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac
KJV

Why do Catholics refer to our religious leaders as father????????? Ask the apostle Paul… he spells it out for you :P
1 Cor 4:15
For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel
RSV
Mind you the words in the bible ARE INSPIRED BY GOD… who are you to doubt them????????? The only logical position then would be to accept ALL of scripture. Your interpretation CLEARLY rejects other verses of scripture which tell us that MEN ON EARTH (and yes all of these people referred to as father were MEN and were from EARTH (there’s actually a ton more verses like these if you like) are labeled as FATHERS by GOD himself in his inerrant Word…. The Catholic Interpretation of this verse understands the scripture you quoted as telling us not to bow down to men as our source of truth… ONLY God is our source of truth… We believe our Pope is inspired by God when he teaches “ex-cathedra” in the same way you believe your bible or (or even you) are inspired by God when you read your magical King James version :P I believe the Pope is my source of truth no more than you believe YOU are your source of truth… it is God who inspires and it is God who is our TRUE father… however… that form of hyperbole doesn’t mean that we actually can’t use the word father as it relates to speaking about a man who lives on earth…. BECAUSE THE BIBLE DOES IT ALL THE TIME AND EVEN HAS APOSTLES INSTRUCTING US THAT THEY ARE OUR SPIRITUAL FATHERS!!!! You may not like the Catholic interpretation but that is the only way to accept ALL of scripture… not just picking one verse out and throwing away all the others like you had done in your ignorant, uninformed, interpretation of scripture. Go tell the Apostle Paul he was wrong when he said he was our father… oh wait…. HE WAS INSPIRED BY GOD HIMSELF WHEN HE SAID IT!!! So go tell your protestant misrepresentations of scripture to God and he’ll tell you what you can do with it.

matt 6:7 - 14 = "but when you pray, use not vain repetions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking" the bible is calling your prayers "heathonous" = catholic church - not my words but Gods words... please explain that one to us

The word VAIN is key… not all repetitions are VAIN, some are for sure… but not all… that’s why GODS INSPIRED WORD has NO PROBLEM with repetitions….

First of all why did you stop reading????????? EVEN THE QUOTE YOU QUOTED GIVES US A STANDARDIZED PRAYER TO PRAY!!!!

Matt 6:7-13
7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking……….
9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

11 Give us this day our daily bread.

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
KJV

Hmmm………. Hey look its one of those prayers I pray all the time as a Catholic!!! And THE WORD OF GOD HIMSELF IS INSTRUCTING ME TO PRAY IT!!!!!!! So the use of a standardized prayer is obviously not wrong… (oh and by the way… the section of the prayer that goes… “For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.” Is actually an error in your precious King James “magic” bible… too bad, your magic King James is not match for the ancient Greek!!!!!! And your betting your soul on this bible?????)
"The doxology at the end of the Our Father, "For thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory, forever. Amen," although found in almost all the late Greek mss., is not found in any early Greek mss. And is certainly not part of the original text. It is a liturgical addition." (Encyclopedic Dictionary of The Bible, copyright 1963, Luuis F. Hartman, p1687)
"The doxology, though missing in the older and best manuscripts of Matthew and not original to the Lord’s Prayer, is a fitting conclusion to the prayer." (Harper’s Bible Dictionary, Paul J. Achtemeier, Copyright 1985, p.576
"The doxology that concludes the prayer (Matt.6:13b, AV) is omitted in RSV, because it does not appear in the oldest and best MSS.; it seems not to have been an original part of the prayer, but represents a liturgical addition." (The New Westminster Dictionary of the Bible, Henry Snyder Gehman, Copyright 1965,p.567)
"Study of the Greek manuscripts shows that the doxology that appears at the end of the Matthean form in some translations is not original."(Holman Bible Dictionary, Trent C. Butler, Copyright 1991, p.893)
"The doxology in Matthew, which constitues and affirmation of faith, is lacking in the lending MSS and is generally regarded as a scribal addition derived from ancient liturgical usage." (The Zondervan Pictorial Bible Dictionary, Merrill C. Tenney Copyright 1967,p.491)
But moving back to our topic of VAIN repititions….
EVEN IN HEAVEN ITSELF!!!!! Creatures are repeating their prayers over and over and over… but is it vain??????????

Rev 4:8
8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
KJV
So are you saying there are sinners in heaven????????????
Rev 21:27
7 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
KJV
AGAIN HERE GOD IS VOUCHING FOR REPITITIOUS PRAYER IN THAT HE IS ALLOWING THOSE WHICH DO SUCH A THING INTO HEAVEN ITSELF!!!!! AND WHILE THEY ARE IN HEAVEN THEY DO THIS ENDLESSLY!!!!!!! Perhaps you should go tell God himself he is interpreting scripture wrong because you read it in your magic king james and think you know better than Christ????
Or how about in the Psalms which is meant to be prayed/sung by Jews as (which because it’s in the bible is OBVIOUSLY inspired by God…. Would you say this is reppititious???)
Ps 136
Psalms 136

136:1 O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever.
2 O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever.
3 O give thanks to the Lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever.
4 To him who alone doeth great wonders: for his mercy endureth for ever.
5 To him that by wisdom made the heavens: for his mercy endureth for ever.
6 To him that stretched out the earth above the waters: for his mercy endureth for ever.
7 To him that made great lights: for his mercy endureth for ever:
8 The sun to rule by day: for his mercy endureth for ever:
9 The moon and stars to rule by night: for his mercy endureth for ever.
10 To him that smote Egypt in their firstborn: for his mercy endureth for ever:
11 And brought out Israel from among them: for his mercy endureth for ever:
12 With a strong hand, and with a stretched out arm: for his mercy endureth for ever.
13 To him which divided the Red sea into parts: for his mercy endureth for ever:
14 And made Israel to pass through the midst of it: for his mercy endureth for ever:
15 But overthrew Pharaoh and his host in the Red sea: for his mercy endureth for ever.
16 To him which led his people through the wilderness: for his mercy endureth for ever.
17 To him which smote great kings: for his mercy endureth for ever:
18 And slew famous kings: for his mercy endureth for ever:
19 Sihon king of the Amorites: for his mercy endureth for ever:
20 And Og the king of Bashan: for his mercy endureth for ever:
21 And gave their land for an heritage: for his mercy endureth for ever:
22 Even an heritage unto Israel his servant: for his mercy endureth for ever.
23 Who remembered us in our low estate: for his mercy endureth for ever:
24 And hath redeemed us from our enemies: for his mercy endureth for ever.
25 Who giveth food to all flesh: for his mercy endureth for ever.
26 O give thanks unto the God of heaven: for his mercy endureth for ever.
KJV
Go tell God he screwed up and shouldn’t have been inspiring people to write down repetitious prayers… all those “mercy endureth for ever’s” are SATANIC!!!!!
YOU GOT IT RIGHT!!!!! ONLY A CATHOLIC WOULD DARE TO USE A REPITITIOUS PRAYER!!!!! I GUESS THEN JESUS CHRIST SON OF GOD MUST BE CATHOLIC!!!!!!
Matt 26:44
44 And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the THIRD TIME, saying the SAME WORDS.
KJV
A Catholic would have no problem with Jesus praying the same prayer over and over because although it’s a repetition it’s not a VAIN repetition… but a protestant would have a problem with the actions of the man they claim to be their God…. THAT’S BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT IN THE SAME CHURCH THAT JESUS IS IN!!!!!! PERIOD, POINT, BLANK

acts 29 - 31 = 29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.(wow, ever been in a catholic church? what do you see... it is not biblical)

The Catholic Church SPECIFICALLY TEACHES that God is NOT any substance or graven image or Idol or anything like that. Statues and such are only REPRESENTATIONS and SYMBOLS of what lies in heaven, the marble itself is not worshiped… but what the marble represents… do you have a problem with gold silver and stone pieces of art work?????? (as long as that physical object isn’t specifically worshiped a Catholic wouldn’t… why??? Because the BIBLE ITSELF instructs humans to make such things!!!!!!) So you have a problem with it??? Go tell it to God that he’s in the wrong religion.. he should stop ordering people to do Catholic things :P and start reading your “magic” King James version of the bible :P

Ex 25:18
18 AND THOU SHALT MAKE TWO CHERUBIMS OF GOLD, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat.
KJV

Ex 26:1
Exodus 26

26:1 Moreover THOU SHALT MAKE the tabernacle with ten curtains of fine twined linen, and blue, and purple, and scarlet: with cherubims of cunning work SHALT THOU MAKE THEM.
KJV

Num 21:8-9
8 And the LORD said unto Moses, MAKE THEE a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.

9 AND MOSES MADE A SERPENT OF BRASS, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.
KJV

1 Kings 6:23-29
23 And within the oracle he MADE two cherubims of olive tree, each ten cubits high.
24 And five cubits was the one wing of the cherub, and five cubits the other wing of the cherub: from the uttermost part of the one wing unto the uttermost part of the other were ten cubits.
25 And the other cherub was ten cubits: both the cherubims were of one measure and one size.
26 The height of the one cherub was ten cubits, and so was it of the other cherub.
27 And he set the cherubims within the inner house: and they stretched forth the wings of the cherubims, so that the wing of the one touched the one wall, and the wing of the other cherub touched the other wall; and their wings touched one another in the midst of the house.
28 And he overlaid the cherubims with GOLD.
29 And he carved all the walls of the house round about with CARVED FIGURES of cherubims and palm trees and open flowers, within and without.
KJV

1 Kings 7:25
25 It stood upon twelve oxen, three looking toward the north, and three looking toward the west, and three looking toward the south, and three looking toward the east
KJV

1 Kings 7:36
36 For on the plates of the ledges thereof, and on the borders thereof, he graved cherubims, lions, and palm trees, according to the proportion of every one, and additions round about.
KJV

Bla Bla Bla… you get the idea MAKING AN IMAGE OF SOMETHING IN HEAVEN LIKE Cerubims (angels) OR ON EARTH (serpents,lions, palm trees, oxen) are NOT sins… ONLY WORSHIPING THEM IS A SIN!!!!! So don’t twist the bible to your own destruction or else you might find yourself attacking the commandments of God himself… because he DID command humans to make these things!!!!! But I guess your interpretation of your “magic” king james Is superior to the commandments of God himself???

30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent this was to the greeks, they had no concept judgment, they worshiped many gods(catholics it would be saints)

Catholcs worship NO SAINTS… it’s is expressly FORBIDDEN to worship anyone but God… the word pray comes from the old English word which means to ASK so we do ASK things of people who are not God just as I might ASK you to pray for me… for example in the hail mary… a Catholic NEVER worships Mary… if you listen to the words of the prayer we are only ASKING her to pray for us… and why ask people like Moses or Mary or the Apostles or your Pastor or anyone else we perceive to be “right with God” to pray for us???
James 5:16
6 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much
KJV
So it’s ok and even encouraged for us to ask others to pray for us… particularly those we perceive to be most righteous (like apostles, mary, etc.) because their prayers are more powerful than anything I can muster. So if you want to attack the Catholic teaching of asking those in heaven or on earth to pray for us then attack exactly that… don’t misrepresent what we do when you have no idea what you are talking about….

paul didnt hold any truth back from them)
31 because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
(only one man was appointed this job - it was Jesus not the pope - unless he was appointed from a dif dark side? and is just claiming to have those powers...humm more to come on that)

What are you talking about??? Do you believe in big foot also???? How about the easter bunny??? I could look at that verse and be like yeah… it says here only jesus was appointed to judge the living and the dead… Not your pastor!!!! Unless he was appointed from the dark side You or I never made any claim that our spiritual leaders Judge the living and the dead…. We both know only God does that so you sound pretty ridiculous.

james 1:26 - mans religion is in vain - man being from a man made system of traditions. not of traditions of preaching of the gospel or the good word –
You are a man following your own religion assuming you are inspired by God. I am a man following Gods religion in that I'm taking Gods word for it that our Pope is inspired by God..... Obviously my contention is that the Catholic Church DOES teach the Gospel and “traditions” which are part of Gods Word… it’s your job to try to show me where the Church’s teachings conflict with scripture… so far you are failing miserably… You show me one verse (and interpret it incorrectly) I show you TEN… that illuminate the fact that your interpretation of the first verse you gave me was INCORRECT… that seems to be the trend. I looks to me like you don’t have a Problem with the teachings of the Catholic Church… you have a problem dealing with the plain words of scripture when it comes to trying to make your false interpretations stand up to the endless verses in the bible I have listed to correct you and your laughable interpretations…..

does the catholic church preach or do they do a eurcherest? is eurcherest in the bible?

Umm YES!!!!!!
John 6:31-64
31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
35 AND JESUS SAID UNTO THEM, I AM THE BREAD OF LIFE: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst…….
41 THE JEWS MUMURED AT HIM, BECAUSE HE SAID, I AM THE BREAD WHICH CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN………………
49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50 THIS IS THE BREAD WHICH COMETH DOWN FROM HEAVEN, THAT A MAN MAY EAT THEREOF, AND NOT DIE.
51 I AM THE LIVING BREAD WHICH CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN: IF ANY MAN EAT OF THIS BREAD, HE SHALL LIVE FOREVER AND THE BREAD THAT I WILL GIVE IS MY FLESH, WHICH I WILL GIVE FOR THE LIFE OF THE WORLD.
52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, HOW CAN THIS MAN GIVE US HIS FLESH TO EAT?
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, EXCEPT YE EAT THE FLESH OF THE SON OF MAN, AND DRINK HIS BLOOD, YE HAVE NO LIFE IN YOU.
54 WHOSO EATETH MY FLESH, AND DRINKETH MY BLOOD, HATH ETERNAL LIFE; AND I WILL RAISE HIM UP ON THE LAST DAY.
55 FOR MY FLESH IS MEAT INDEED, AND MY BLOOD IS DRINK INDEED.
56 HE THAT EATETH MY FLESH, AND DRINKETH MY BLOOD, DWELLETH IN ME, AND I IN HIM.
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: HE THAT EATETH THIS BREAD SHALL LIVE FOREVER…….
60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, THIS IS A HARD SAYING; WHO CAN HEAR IT?
61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?......
64 BUT THERE ARE SOME OF YOU THAT BELIEVE NOT. FOR JESUS NEW FROM THE BEGGINING WHO THEY WERE THAT BELIEVED NOT, AND WHO SHOULD BETRAY HIM.
KJV

Luke 22:19-21
19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: THIS DO IN REMEMBERANCE OF ME.

20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

21 But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table.
KJV

"And they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of
bread and the prayers." (Acts 2:42, RSV)

Matt 26:26-28
26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.

27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
KJV

Mark 14:22-24
22 And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body.

23 And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it.

24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.
KJV


1 Cor 11:25-30
25 In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me." 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.

27 WHOEVER, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord IN AN UNWORTHY MANNER WILL BE GUILTY OF PROFAINING THE BODY AND BLOOD OF THE LORD. 28 Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 FOR ANYONE WHO EATS AND DRINKS WITHOUT DISCERNING THE BODY EATS AND DRINKS JUDGEMENT UPON HIMSELF. 30 That is why many of you are weak and ill, AND SOME HAVE DIED.
RSV

So go ahead and doubt, don't discern the body… the bible says you are eating and drinking Judgement upon yourself!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What’s the matter???? Jesus proclaims OVER AND OVER that you must eat and drink his flesh and blood and you still doubt???????? Don’t you believe in miracles???????? The Jews and Judas didn’t belive, I guess neither do protestants… But the Catholic Church believes the words of Christ and takes them at face value… because we have faith in the Words of God.

geneflexing?

So what do you have a problem with here? The specific position??? Is that condemned in the bible to put one knee down???? Or do you have a problem with putting your body into various positions in order to show respect and reverence to Christ??? If that’s the Case ARGUE WITH THE WORD OF GOD

Is it right to bow before images and statues of Mother Mary and the Saints? Let’s see
what Sacred Scriptures has for us.
“ … And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and worshipped, and said to him,
“What does my lord bid his servant?”” (Joshua 5:14, RSV)
Joshua bowed down and honoured an angel of God, but committed no sin in doing so.
(29)
“The two angels came to Sodom in the evening; and Lot was sitting in the gate of
Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them, and bowed himself with his
face to the earth.” (Genesis 19:1, RSV)
Lot the nephew of Abraham bowed down before two angels of the Lord, but he was not
worshipping them as a god.
“Afterward David also arose, and went out of the cave, and called after Saul, “My
lord the king!” And when Saul looked behind him, David bowed with his face to
the earth and did obeisance.” (1 Samuel 24:8, RSV)
David, the servant of the LORD, bowed down and did obeisance before king Saul, but he
was not sinning against God’s commandment.
“Then she fell on her face, bowing to the ground, and said to him, “Why have I
found favour in your eyes, that you should take notice of me, when I am a
foreigner?”” (Ruth 2:10, RSV)
Ruth bowed down to the ground before Boaz in gratitude, but she was not worshipping
him.
“She came and fell at his feet, bowing to the ground; then she took up her son and
went out.” (2 Kings 4:37, RSV)
The Shunammite woman bowed down before the prophet Elisha after he had raised her
child from the dead, but she was not committing idolatry.
“Bathsheba bowed and did obeisance to the king, and the king said, “What do you
desire?” (1 Kings 1:16, RSV)
Bathsheba was blameless when she bowed down in honour of king David, while he was
on his deathbed.
“And when he came in before the king, he bowed before the king, with his face to
the ground.” (1 Kings 1: 23 ff, RSV)
Again, the prophet Nathan was likewise not committing idolatry when he also bowed
down to king David at his deathbed.
“He himself went on before them, bowing himself to the ground seven times, until he
came near his brother.” (Genesis 33:3, RSV)
Kneeling as part of worship in Sacred Scripture
"Now as Solomon finished offering all this prayer and supplication to the LORD,
he arose from before the altar of the LORD, where he had knelt with hands
outstretched toward heaven" (1 Kings 8:54, RSV)
"Then [Solomon] knelt upon his knees in the presence of all the assembly of
Israel, and spread forth his hands toward heaven" (2 Chronicles 6:13, RSV)
"And when they came to the crowd, a man came up to him and kneeling before
him said, 'Lord, have mercy on my son...'" (Matthew 17:14-15, RSV)
"But when Simon Peter saw it, he fell down at Jesus' knees, saying, 'Depart from
me, for I am a sinful man, O Lord.'" (Luke 5:8, RSV)
"for it is written, 'As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every
tongue shall
give praise to God.'" (Romans 14:11, RSV)
"at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under
the earth"
(Philippians 2:10, RSV)
"And whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to him who
is seated on the throne, who lives for ever and ever, the twenty-four elders fall
down before him who is seated on the throne and worship him who lives for ever
and ever" (Revelations 4:9-10, RSV)
Incense as part of worship in Sacred Scripture
"and going into the house they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell
down and worshiped him. Then, opening their treasures, they offered him gifts,
gold and frankincense and myrrh." (Matthew 2:11, RSV)
"And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four
elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full
of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Revelations 5:8, RSV)
"And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was
given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden
altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the
saints from the hand of the angel before God." (Revelations 8:3-4, RSV)

So sorry about that, but kneeling, bowing… prostrating, falling before God… yeah It’s all BIBLICAL so go cut those verses out of your bible because they don’t agree with your magical interpretation of your magical King James version. If you can’t even get this stuff right how do you know you’re right about how to save your soul??????????

calling a man father? lol... that is easy to figure out

Already deal with that above (brilliantly if I might add)

judges 17 shows the troubles of priests and of graven images...

Already dealt with that above bla bla bla..... oh and by the way... so far NONE of the verses you've ever shown me was something I hadn't heard of... I knew the responce even before you knew of the attack... kind of makes you look like you haven't studied your bible all that much huh??? :P Yeah it's pretty hard to argue with 2,000 years of the all the greatest christian minds and experts that ever lived... because that's the position I'm backing up.. not to mention the one JESUS backs up and claims whatever our leaders bind on earth he binds in heaven.... keep attacking though... soon you'll see how hopeless it is to attack Gods Church... You'll only find yourself in the position of attacking God himself (as you found yourself doing here time and time again) :P

[D7M]

maybe we are talking simantics but muslims believe in Jesus but not as a Christ... and i cant think about a good annalogy to explain but here goes and explination...

it would be like when i raise my children up i call the color blue, green. and now they call the color blue... green. even though they believe what i told them it was wrong... the two religions are wrong and they might as well call the person they are talking about bob or tom cause it is not Jesus Christ.

it is all confusing i know but the articles i posted above do a much better job of explaining(you dont need to read it all to get the jist)

Maybe this will clear it up:

The difference is that when Christians say they "believe in" Jesus it means they believe in him as God, as the second Person of the Trinity, that he was the promised Messiah, became Incarnate and his death and resurrection has salvific efficacy.

When non-Christians say they "believe in Jesus" they mean that they believe he was a historical person, a prophet, but not God, and his death had no salvific efficacy.

Jehovah's Whitnesses are usually categorized as non-Christians because, as far as I know, they do not believe in Christ's deity. This would, of course, also hold true for Muslims, Jews, etc.

[D7M]

solid answer!!

wow!

we agree on something Amcon!

[D7M]

As for sin being cause of death - yes, tuff question to answer (tuff for me) tuff because - satan was made perfect, his job was to cover the throne of God and let Gods light out over heaven(satan was actually embedded with jewels and musical instroments) however, satan wanted to be God and that is why he was cast to earth... clarence larken is very versed in this area and i have studied him as of late... i suggest you google dispensational truth and it will be answered beyond a doubt... i will go on - that was where the sin nature came from. so death before sin- humans i will say no... and for animals yes

Amcon, I'm not going to push you on alot of issues here, I'll leave that to the Gza.

But, I'd really, really be interested in knowing where you get this (what is in bold above)?

The problem is, if you can't find that in the Bible (and I'm positive you won't), then you have basically contradicted everything you said in this thread about the bible being the sole authority in matters of faith and morals.

Do you see the issue? If you claim sola scriptura, then it has to be all or nothing. One can't "add" things in to their belief system that are not explicitly contained in it, otherwise, that would be a form of tradition.

[D7M]

Can a Christian believe in evolution?

Yes, a Christian can believe in evolution.

A few things must be stipulated, however:

1. A belief that God created the world ex nihilo (from nothing)
2. souls are a direct creation of God (in the 1950's this guy Theilard de Chardin came up with this crazy theory to combine evolution with theism, and this was the real sticky point for him).
3. A belief in monogenism, namely that we are direct descendants from one set of original parents.

Even as early as 1950 Pius XII in his Encyclical "Humani Generis" had stated that the theory of evolution was not incompatible with faith so long as the above stipulations were held.

[D7M]

As for sin being cause of death - yes, tuff question to answer (tuff for me) tuff because - satan was made perfect, his job was to cover the throne of God and let Gods light out over heaven(satan was actually embedded with jewels and musical instroments) however, satan wanted to be God and that is why he was cast to earth...clarence larken is very versed in this area and i have studied him as of late... i suggest you google dispensational truth and it will be answered beyond a doubt... i will go on - that was where the sin nature came from. so death before sin- humans i will say no... and for animals yes

So, the part in bold....

I'm not sure what you mean. Are you saying that Satan created an ontological reality (evil) that is commensurate with God's good act of creation?

Not to put words in your mouth...so, where exactly, in your view, did this "sin nature" come from? And what is the "sin nature"?

[amcon]

Where does the bible say I need a kjv bible??????????????? NOWHERE
Where does the bible say that I NEED to go to bible study???????? NOWHERE
Is bible study profitable? Is reading the bible a good thing? Sure. But is it necessary for salvation??????????????? Nope!!!!!!!!!!! Do you have any idea how many illiterate People there are that have lived through the centuries?????? Are they all doomed to hell?????????? Don’t be ridiculous :P

***lets make this very clear... very clear.... the bible says you need to read it end of story the kjv bible is the closest to the actually scriptures and this you know... you have been led (wrongly i will add) that you are not smart enough to read the bible, and that the Holy Gost is not good enought to empower you to read it for you self... you must rely on a pope to translate it for you. and that my friend is wrong!!!

***the bible as you have so many time stated that you should also be tought the bible... thus BIBLE STUDYunless your incorrect bible has twisted that in it verses as well...

***now you want to bring up what i have first stated - none on this matters NONE with out the trust in God and you and me asking for salvation - so it is good to hear that you have that foundationaly piece down - all this is me and you having extra time on our hands to debate why trusting in a man (pope) to lead to your salvation is biblically WRONG!! ti takes the diety and the deeds of sacrifice of our Lord from what he desirves credit for.

you know just as well as i do that each person will be shown the light of God in his or her life time...

what you are arguing is that the bible is not important - that you must be taught the bible... i am stating what the bible says - what the bible says is all that matters

Bible Reading: (--- what did that say? bible readings not "let me read the bible to you cause you are less than i am !!!"(as the person pounds their chest!!!)

Isaiah 34:16 Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.

2 Tim 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.(see you testify of the pope and the church and will be judge for that... did you know that? no cause "they" didnt tell you that)

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.(note: notice how this vrs says recieved the word with all readiness, that could imply that it was taught to them, then what does it say? they searched the scriptures after the instruction - were you not taught that as well? of coarse not - they dont what you to know the truth)

Deuteronomy 17:19 And it shall be with him, and he shall read therein all the days of his life: that he may learn to fear the LORD his God, to keep all the words of this law and these statutes, to do them:

Isaiah 34:16 Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.

Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.(note: now we see that we get a blessing if we read)

Holy Spirit - Teaching the Word:

Proverbs 1:23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.(hu? were you worried about salvation for the illierate? ye have little faith!! or you just dont know the true Lord... i pray you do)

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.(ditto to the last one)



point amcon

^^^^^ --- just some humor - but you arguments are half sided at best with lack of a strong bible and being lead by a man not the Holy Ghost... that is what i should expect? no way you know you bible at least the bible you have... that is a good thing, just get in to the kjv it will bring out more of the love of God to you and you knowledge.

[amcon]

Amcon… you haven’t responded to everything I posted so far so before I respond to everything I’ll let you finish your rebuttal first… but so far I have noted that you have added a few more topics onto the list as it relates to your quotes from scripture attempting to attack the Church…. I have responses for those as follows:

#1 - get a kjv bible #2 - pray to God that you have salvation and have him reviel it to you clearly
#3 - read you bible, get in to a bible study, and really listen and take notes from your priest and back up what he says in your studies


Where does the bible say I need a kjv bible??????????????? NOWHERE
Where does the bible say that I NEED to go to bible study???????? NOWHERE
Is bible study profitable? Is reading the bible a good thing? Sure. But is it necessary for salvation??????????????? Nope!!!!!!!!!!! Do you have any idea how many illiterate People there are that have lived through the centuries?????? Are they all doomed to hell?????????? Don’t be ridiculous :P


mat 23:9 - call no man father... yet what do you call a priest?

You never called your dad father??? Do you forbid your own children to refer to you as a father????? Let’s not be silly… you are clearly misinterpreting the bible, If your interpretation of this verse is correct then the bible contradicts itself and if it does that then it’s not the word of God so you should start being hindu or something.. :P
Gen 45:8
8 So now it was not you that sent me hither, but God: and he hath made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house, and a ruler throughout all the land of Egypt.
KJV

Job 29:16
16 I was a father to the poor: and the cause which I knew not I searched out.
KJV

Isa 22:21
and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah.
KJV
Wow you better go tell God that he was wrong!!!! How silly of him to declare that a mere man is a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem!!!! Doesn’t God read his bible???? Oh wait… maybe he just doesn’t interpret it the same way Protestants do!!!! That’s right because Jesus said HIS church is the one founded upon Peter… and we both know that’s the only Church founded upon Peter is the Catholic Church!!! :P So why would he listen to your interpretation of scripture when it’s obviously wrong and God himself does not follow it. :P

2 Kings 2:11-12
Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
12 And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father
KJV

2 Kings 6:21
And the king of Israel said unto Elisha, when he saw them, My father, shall I smite them? shall I smite them
KJV

Acts 7:2
2 And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran
KJV

Rom 9:10
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac
KJV

Why do Catholics refer to our religious leaders as father????????? Ask the apostle Paul… he spells it out for you :P
1 Cor 4:15
For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel
RSV
Mind you the words in the bible ARE INSPIRED BY GOD… who are you to doubt them????????? The only logical position then would be to accept ALL of scripture. Your interpretation CLEARLY rejects other verses of scripture which tell us that MEN ON EARTH (and yes all of these people referred to as father were MEN and were from EARTH (there’s actually a ton more verses like these if you like) are labeled as FATHERS by GOD himself in his inerrant Word…. The Catholic Interpretation of this verse understands the scripture you quoted as telling us not to bow down to men as our source of truth… ONLY God is our source of truth… We believe our Pope is inspired by God when he teaches “ex-cathedra” in the same way you believe your bible or (or even you) are inspired by God when you read your magical King James version :P I believe the Pope is my source of truth no more than you believe YOU are your source of truth… it is God who inspires and it is God who is our TRUE father… however… that form of hyperbole doesn’t mean that we actually can’t use the word father as it relates to speaking about a man who lives on earth…. BECAUSE THE BIBLE DOES IT ALL THE TIME AND EVEN HAS APOSTLES INSTRUCTING US THAT THEY ARE OUR SPIRITUAL FATHERS!!!! You may not like the Catholic interpretation but that is the only way to accept ALL of scripture… not just picking one verse out and throwing away all the others like you had done in your ignorant, uninformed, interpretation of scripture. Go tell the Apostle Paul he was wrong when he said he was our father… oh wait…. HE WAS INSPIRED BY GOD HIMSELF WHEN HE SAID IT!!! So go tell your protestant misrepresentations of scripture to God and he’ll tell you what you can do with it.

matt 6:7 - 14 = "but when you pray, use not vain repetions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking" the bible is calling your prayers "heathonous" = catholic church - not my words but Gods words... please explain that one to us

The word VAIN is key… not all repetitions are VAIN, some are for sure… but not all… that’s why GODS INSPIRED WORD has NO PROBLEM with repetitions….

First of all why did you stop reading????????? EVEN THE QUOTE YOU QUOTED GIVES US A STANDARDIZED PRAYER TO PRAY!!!!

Matt 6:7-13
7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking……….
9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

11 Give us this day our daily bread.

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
KJV

Hmmm………. Hey look its one of those prayers I pray all the time as a Catholic!!! And THE WORD OF GOD HIMSELF IS INSTRUCTING ME TO PRAY IT!!!!!!! So the use of a standardized prayer is obviously not wrong… (oh and by the way… the section of the prayer that goes… “For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.” Is actually an error in your precious King James “magic” bible… too bad, your magic King James is not match for the ancient Greek!!!!!! And your betting your soul on this bible?????)
"The doxology at the end of the Our Father, "For thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory, forever. Amen," although found in almost all the late Greek mss., is not found in any early Greek mss. And is certainly not part of the original text. It is a liturgical addition." (Encyclopedic Dictionary of The Bible, copyright 1963, Luuis F. Hartman, p1687)
"The doxology, though missing in the older and best manuscripts of Matthew and not original to the Lord’s Prayer, is a fitting conclusion to the prayer." (Harper’s Bible Dictionary, Paul J. Achtemeier, Copyright 1985, p.576
"The doxology that concludes the prayer (Matt.6:13b, AV) is omitted in RSV, because it does not appear in the oldest and best MSS.; it seems not to have been an original part of the prayer, but represents a liturgical addition." (The New Westminster Dictionary of the Bible, Henry Snyder Gehman, Copyright 1965,p.567)
"Study of the Greek manuscripts shows that the doxology that appears at the end of the Matthean form in some translations is not original."(Holman Bible Dictionary, Trent C. Butler, Copyright 1991, p.893)
"The doxology in Matthew, which constitues and affirmation of faith, is lacking in the lending MSS and is generally regarded as a scribal addition derived from ancient liturgical usage." (The Zondervan Pictorial Bible Dictionary, Merrill C. Tenney Copyright 1967,p.491)
But moving back to our topic of VAIN repititions….
EVEN IN HEAVEN ITSELF!!!!! Creatures are repeating their prayers over and over and over… but is it vain??????????

Rev 4:8
8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
KJV
So are you saying there are sinners in heaven????????????
Rev 21:27
7 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
KJV
AGAIN HERE GOD IS VOUCHING FOR REPITITIOUS PRAYER IN THAT HE IS ALLOWING THOSE WHICH DO SUCH A THING INTO HEAVEN ITSELF!!!!! AND WHILE THEY ARE IN HEAVEN THEY DO THIS ENDLESSLY!!!!!!! Perhaps you should go tell God himself he is interpreting scripture wrong because you read it in your magic king james and think you know better than Christ????
Or how about in the Psalms which is meant to be prayed/sung by Jews as (which because it’s in the bible is OBVIOUSLY inspired by God…. Would you say this is reppititious???)
Ps 136
Psalms 136

136:1 O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever.
2 O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever.
3 O give thanks to the Lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever.
4 To him who alone doeth great wonders: for his mercy endureth for ever.
5 To him that by wisdom made the heavens: for his mercy endureth for ever.
6 To him that stretched out the earth above the waters: for his mercy endureth for ever.
7 To him that made great lights: for his mercy endureth for ever:
8 The sun to rule by day: for his mercy endureth for ever:
9 The moon and stars to rule by night: for his mercy endureth for ever.
10 To him that smote Egypt in their firstborn: for his mercy endureth for ever:
11 And brought out Israel from among them: for his mercy endureth for ever:
12 With a strong hand, and with a stretched out arm: for his mercy endureth for ever.
13 To him which divided the Red sea into parts: for his mercy endureth for ever:
14 And made Israel to pass through the midst of it: for his mercy endureth for ever:
15 But overthrew Pharaoh and his host in the Red sea: for his mercy endureth for ever.
16 To him which led his people through the wilderness: for his mercy endureth for ever.
17 To him which smote great kings: for his mercy endureth for ever:
18 And slew famous kings: for his mercy endureth for ever:
19 Sihon king of the Amorites: for his mercy endureth for ever:
20 And Og the king of Bashan: for his mercy endureth for ever:
21 And gave their land for an heritage: for his mercy endureth for ever:
22 Even an heritage unto Israel his servant: for his mercy endureth for ever.
23 Who remembered us in our low estate: for his mercy endureth for ever:
24 And hath redeemed us from our enemies: for his mercy endureth for ever.
25 Who giveth food to all flesh: for his mercy endureth for ever.
26 O give thanks unto the God of heaven: for his mercy endureth for ever.
KJV
Go tell God he screwed up and shouldn’t have been inspiring people to write down repetitious prayers… all those “mercy endureth for ever’s” are SATANIC!!!!!
YOU GOT IT RIGHT!!!!! ONLY A CATHOLIC WOULD DARE TO USE A REPITITIOUS PRAYER!!!!! I GUESS THEN JESUS CHRIST SON OF GOD MUST BE CATHOLIC!!!!!!
Matt 26:44
44 And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the THIRD TIME, saying the SAME WORDS.
KJV
A Catholic would have no problem with Jesus praying the same prayer over and over because although it’s a repetition it’s not a VAIN repetition… but a protestant would have a problem with the actions of the man they claim to be their God…. THAT’S BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT IN THE SAME CHURCH THAT JESUS IS IN!!!!!! PERIOD, POINT, BLANK

acts 29 - 31 = 29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.(wow, ever been in a catholic church? what do you see... it is not biblical)

The Catholic Church SPECIFICALLY TEACHES that God is NOT any substance or graven image or Idol or anything like that. Statues and such are only REPRESENTATIONS and SYMBOLS of what lies in heaven, the marble itself is not worshiped… but what the marble represents… do you have a problem with gold silver and stone pieces of art work?????? (as long as that physical object isn’t specifically worshiped a Catholic wouldn’t… why??? Because the BIBLE ITSELF instructs humans to make such things!!!!!!) So you have a problem with it??? Go tell it to God that he’s in the wrong religion.. he should stop ordering people to do Catholic things :P and start reading your “magic” King James version of the bible :P

Ex 25:18
18 AND THOU SHALT MAKE TWO CHERUBIMS OF GOLD, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat.
KJV

Ex 26:1
Exodus 26

26:1 Moreover THOU SHALT MAKE the tabernacle with ten curtains of fine twined linen, and blue, and purple, and scarlet: with cherubims of cunning work SHALT THOU MAKE THEM.
KJV

Num 21:8-9
8 And the LORD said unto Moses, MAKE THEE a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.

9 AND MOSES MADE A SERPENT OF BRASS, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.
KJV

1 Kings 6:23-29
23 And within the oracle he MADE two cherubims of olive tree, each ten cubits high.
24 And five cubits was the one wing of the cherub, and five cubits the other wing of the cherub: from the uttermost part of the one wing unto the uttermost part of the other were ten cubits.
25 And the other cherub was ten cubits: both the cherubims were of one measure and one size.
26 The height of the one cherub was ten cubits, and so was it of the other cherub.
27 And he set the cherubims within the inner house: and they stretched forth the wings of the cherubims, so that the wing of the one touched the one wall, and the wing of the other cherub touched the other wall; and their wings touched one another in the midst of the house.
28 And he overlaid the cherubims with GOLD.
29 And he carved all the walls of the house round about with CARVED FIGURES of cherubims and palm trees and open flowers, within and without.
KJV

1 Kings 7:25
25 It stood upon twelve oxen, three looking toward the north, and three looking toward the west, and three looking toward the south, and three looking toward the east
KJV

1 Kings 7:36
36 For on the plates of the ledges thereof, and on the borders thereof, he graved cherubims, lions, and palm trees, according to the proportion of every one, and additions round about.
KJV

Bla Bla Bla… you get the idea MAKING AN IMAGE OF SOMETHING IN HEAVEN LIKE Cerubims (angels) OR ON EARTH (serpents,lions, palm trees, oxen) are NOT sins… ONLY WORSHIPING THEM IS A SIN!!!!! So don’t twist the bible to your own destruction or else you might find yourself attacking the commandments of God himself… because he DID command humans to make these things!!!!! But I guess your interpretation of your “magic” king james Is superior to the commandments of God himself???

30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent this was to the greeks, they had no concept judgment, they worshiped many gods(catholics it would be saints)

Catholcs worship NO SAINTS… it’s is expressly FORBIDDEN to worship anyone but God… the word pray comes from the old English word which means to ASK so we do ASK things of people who are not God just as I might ASK you to pray for me… for example in the hail mary… a Catholic NEVER worships Mary… if you listen to the words of the prayer we are only ASKING her to pray for us… and why ask people like Moses or Mary or the Apostles or your Pastor or anyone else we perceive to be “right with God” to pray for us???
James 5:16
6 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much
KJV
So it’s ok and even encouraged for us to ask others to pray for us… particularly those we perceive to be most righteous (like apostles, mary, etc.) because their prayers are more powerful than anything I can muster. So if you want to attack the Catholic teaching of asking those in heaven or on earth to pray for us then attack exactly that… don’t misrepresent what we do when you have no idea what you are talking about….

paul didnt hold any truth back from them)
31 because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
(only one man was appointed this job - it was Jesus not the pope - unless he was appointed from a dif dark side? and is just claiming to have those powers...humm more to come on that)

What are you talking about??? Do you believe in big foot also???? How about the easter bunny??? I could look at that verse and be like yeah… it says here only jesus was appointed to judge the living and the dead… Not your pastor!!!! Unless he was appointed from the dark side You or I never made any claim that our spiritual leaders Judge the living and the dead…. We both know only God does that so you sound pretty ridiculous.

james 1:26 - mans religion is in vain - man being from a man made system of traditions. not of traditions of preaching of the gospel or the good word –
You are a man following your own religion assuming you are inspired by God. I am a man following Gods religion in that I'm taking Gods word for it that our Pope is inspired by God..... Obviously my contention is that the Catholic Church DOES teach the Gospel and “traditions” which are part of Gods Word… it’s your job to try to show me where the Church’s teachings conflict with scripture… so far you are failing miserably… You show me one verse (and interpret it incorrectly) I show you TEN… that illuminate the fact that your interpretation of the first verse you gave me was INCORRECT… that seems to be the trend. I looks to me like you don’t have a Problem with the teachings of the Catholic Church… you have a problem dealing with the plain words of scripture when it comes to trying to make your false interpretations stand up to the endless verses in the bible I have listed to correct you and your laughable interpretations…..

does the catholic church preach or do they do a eurcherest? is eurcherest in the bible?

Umm YES!!!!!!
John 6:31-64
31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
35 AND JESUS SAID UNTO THEM, I AM THE BREAD OF LIFE: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst…….
41 THE JEWS MUMURED AT HIM, BECAUSE HE SAID, I AM THE BREAD WHICH CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN………………
49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50 THIS IS THE BREAD WHICH COMETH DOWN FROM HEAVEN, THAT A MAN MAY EAT THEREOF, AND NOT DIE.
51 I AM THE LIVING BREAD WHICH CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN: IF ANY MAN EAT OF THIS BREAD, HE SHALL LIVE FOREVER AND THE BREAD THAT I WILL GIVE IS MY FLESH, WHICH I WILL GIVE FOR THE LIFE OF THE WORLD.
52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, HOW CAN THIS MAN GIVE US HIS FLESH TO EAT?
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, EXCEPT YE EAT THE FLESH OF THE SON OF MAN, AND DRINK HIS BLOOD, YE HAVE NO LIFE IN YOU.
54 WHOSO EATETH MY FLESH, AND DRINKETH MY BLOOD, HATH ETERNAL LIFE; AND I WILL RAISE HIM UP ON THE LAST DAY.
55 FOR MY FLESH IS MEAT INDEED, AND MY BLOOD IS DRINK INDEED.
56 HE THAT EATETH MY FLESH, AND DRINKETH MY BLOOD, DWELLETH IN ME, AND I IN HIM.
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: HE THAT EATETH THIS BREAD SHALL LIVE FOREVER…….
60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, THIS IS A HARD SAYING; WHO CAN HEAR IT?
61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?......
64 BUT THERE ARE SOME OF YOU THAT BELIEVE NOT. FOR JESUS NEW FROM THE BEGGINING WHO THEY WERE THAT BELIEVED NOT, AND WHO SHOULD BETRAY HIM.
KJV

Luke 22:19-21
19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: THIS DO IN REMEMBERANCE OF ME.

20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

21 But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table.
KJV

"And they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of
bread and the prayers." (Acts 2:42, RSV)

Matt 26:26-28
26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.

27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
KJV

Mark 14:22-24
22 And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body.

23 And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it.

24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.
KJV


1 Cor 11:25-30
25 In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me." 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.

27 WHOEVER, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord IN AN UNWORTHY MANNER WILL BE GUILTY OF PROFAINING THE BODY AND BLOOD OF THE LORD. 28 Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 FOR ANYONE WHO EATS AND DRINKS WITHOUT DISCERNING THE BODY EATS AND DRINKS JUDGEMENT UPON HIMSELF. 30 That is why many of you are weak and ill, AND SOME HAVE DIED.
RSV

So go ahead and doubt, don't discern the body… the bible says you are eating and drinking Judgement upon yourself!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What’s the matter???? Jesus proclaims OVER AND OVER that you must eat and drink his flesh and blood and you still doubt???????? Don’t you believe in miracles???????? The Jews and Judas didn’t belive, I guess neither do protestants… But the Catholic Church believes the words of Christ and takes them at face value… because we have faith in the Words of God.

geneflexing?

So what do you have a problem with here? The specific position??? Is that condemned in the bible to put one knee down???? Or do you have a problem with putting your body into various positions in order to show respect and reverence to Christ??? If that’s the Case ARGUE WITH THE WORD OF GOD

Is it right to bow before images and statues of Mother Mary and the Saints? Let’s see
what Sacred Scriptures has for us.
“ … And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and worshipped, and said to him,
“What does my lord bid his servant?”” (Joshua 5:14, RSV)
Joshua bowed down and honoured an angel of God, but committed no sin in doing so.
(29)
“The two angels came to Sodom in the evening; and Lot was sitting in the gate of
Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them, and bowed himself with his
face to the earth.” (Genesis 19:1, RSV)
Lot the nephew of Abraham bowed down before two angels of the Lord, but he was not
worshipping them as a god.
“Afterward David also arose, and went out of the cave, and called after Saul, “My
lord the king!” And when Saul looked behind him, David bowed with his face to
the earth and did obeisance.” (1 Samuel 24:8, RSV)
David, the servant of the LORD, bowed down and did obeisance before king Saul, but he
was not sinning against God’s commandment.
“Then she fell on her face, bowing to the ground, and said to him, “Why have I
found favour in your eyes, that you should take notice of me, when I am a
foreigner?”” (Ruth 2:10, RSV)
Ruth bowed down to the ground before Boaz in gratitude, but she was not worshipping
him.
“She came and fell at his feet, bowing to the ground; then she took up her son and
went out.” (2 Kings 4:37, RSV)
The Shunammite woman bowed down before the prophet Elisha after he had raised her
child from the dead, but she was not committing idolatry.
“Bathsheba bowed and did obeisance to the king, and the king said, “What do you
desire?” (1 Kings 1:16, RSV)
Bathsheba was blameless when she bowed down in honour of king David, while he was
on his deathbed.
“And when he came in before the king, he bowed before the king, with his face to
the ground.” (1 Kings 1: 23 ff, RSV)
Again, the prophet Nathan was likewise not committing idolatry when he also bowed
down to king David at his deathbed.
“He himself went on before them, bowing himself to the ground seven times, until he
came near his brother.” (Genesis 33:3, RSV)
Kneeling as part of worship in Sacred Scripture
"Now as Solomon finished offering all this prayer and supplication to the LORD,
he arose from before the altar of the LORD, where he had knelt with hands
outstretched toward heaven" (1 Kings 8:54, RSV)
"Then [Solomon] knelt upon his knees in the presence of all the assembly of
Israel, and spread forth his hands toward heaven" (2 Chronicles 6:13, RSV)
"And when they came to the crowd, a man came up to him and kneeling before
him said, 'Lord, have mercy on my son...'" (Matthew 17:14-15, RSV)
"But when Simon Peter saw it, he fell down at Jesus' knees, saying, 'Depart from
me, for I am a sinful man, O Lord.'" (Luke 5:8, RSV)
"for it is written, 'As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every
tongue shall
give praise to God.'" (Romans 14:11, RSV)
"at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under
the earth"
(Philippians 2:10, RSV)
"And whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to him who
is seated on the throne, who lives for ever and ever, the twenty-four elders fall
down before him who is seated on the throne and worship him who lives for ever
and ever" (Revelations 4:9-10, RSV)
Incense as part of worship in Sacred Scripture
"and going into the house they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell
down and worshiped him. Then, opening their treasures, they offered him gifts,
gold and frankincense and myrrh." (Matthew 2:11, RSV)
"And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four
elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full
of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Revelations 5:8, RSV)
"And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was
given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden
altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the
saints from the hand of the angel before God." (Revelations 8:3-4, RSV)

So sorry about that, but kneeling, bowing… prostrating, falling before God… yeah It’s all BIBLICAL so go cut those verses out of your bible because they don’t agree with your magical interpretation of your magical King James version. If you can’t even get this stuff right how do you know you’re right about how to save your soul??????????

calling a man father? lol... that is easy to figure out

Already deal with that above (brilliantly if I might add)

judges 17 shows the troubles of priests and of graven images...

Already dealt with that above bla bla bla..... oh and by the way... so far NONE of the verses you've ever shown me was something I hadn't heard of... I knew the responce even before you knew of the attack... kind of makes you look like you haven't studied your bible all that much huh??? :P Yeah it's pretty hard to argue with 2,000 years of the all the greatest christian minds and experts that ever lived... because that's the position I'm backing up.. not to mention the one JESUS backs up and claims whatever our leaders bind on earth he binds in heaven.... keep attacking though... soon you'll see how hopeless it is to attack Gods Church... You'll only find yourself in the position of attacking God himself (as you found yourself doing here time and time again) :P

i didnt read all of this i keep getting lost with how inaccurate you bible is i will send you a like for king james... you will actually learn more from a different bible - cause you is just very wrong

http://etext.virginia.edu/kjv.browse.html

good luck and good reading (lol) your

[amcon]

Maybe this will clear it up:

The difference is that when Christians say they "believe in" Jesus it means they believe in him as God, as the second Person of the Trinity, that he was the promised Messiah, became Incarnate and his death and resurrection has salvific efficacy.

When non-Christians say they "believe in Jesus" they mean that they believe he was a historical person, a prophet, but not God, and his death had no salvific efficacy.

Jehovah's Whitnesses are usually categorized as non-Christians because, as far as I know, they do not believe in Christ's deity. This would, of course, also hold true for Muslims, Jews, etc.

very well put, much much better than i tried to say that ... thanks!!

i will also note that that doesnt mean that christians think they are better "per sa" that the above mentioned people we are all siners, all of us that put us all on the same level to God... until we find a way to get in to the Lords light

[amcon]

wow!

we agree on something Amcon!

he he he as yet we should, we are brothers in Christ... smiles

[amcon]

Amcon, I'm not going to push you on alot of issues here, I'll leave that to the Gza.

But, I'd really, really be interested in knowing where you get this (what is in bold above)?

The problem is, if you can't find that in the Bible (and I'm positive you won't), then you have basically contradicted everything you said in this thread about the bible being the sole authority in matters of faith and morals.

Do you see the issue? If you claim sola scriptura, then it has to be all or nothing. One can't "add" things in to their belief system that are not explicitly contained in it, otherwise, that would be a form of tradition.

are you refering to how satan was made?

satan was the anointed cherub that covereth...ezek 28:14 "Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire."

satan(his original name was lucifer) covered the "Throne of God" he was perfect in all his ways from the day that he was created(Gods creations are all perfect) until iniquity was found in him. in him was the "fullness of wisdom" and the "perfection of bueaty" but it was his 'beauty" that caused the pride that was his downfall. he was clothed in a garment that ws covered with the most rate and precious gem, the sardius, topaz, diamond, beryl, onyx, jasper, sapphire, emerald, corbuncle, and woven in with gold, he dwelt in the eden the "garden of God" (eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.) cool hu? pipes were made in him - pipe refers to musical things - remember what he cheribs were made for ? praising God... satan had the special privilage to shine God's light out on to all of the heavens

the above place probabley refers to not just the earthly Eden, but to the 'paradise of God' on high, for satan dwelt on the "holy mount of God" all this is in exek. 28: 11 - 29... the prophet here describes satans original glory form which he fell. the catholic church do they teach this? (no sarcasim, however my time spent talking to and in the catholic church paint avery diff picture of satan... do you know even today satan travles(dont ask me how... satan says he walks) back and forth to heaven and earth to accuse us?)

[amcon]

(in jest) "The problem is, if you can't find that in the Bible (and I'm positive you won't), then you have basically contradicted everything you said..."

found it... and i read their for i have knowledge... with knowlege comes wisdom - im still working on both

let me know you thoughts on the above