The unofficial ask a Christian thread

**amcon** · 02-13-2009, 02:51 PM

Originally Posted by derek7m

So, the part in bold....

I'm not sure what you mean. Are you saying that Satan created an ontological reality (evil) that is commensurate with God's good act of creation?

Not to put words in your mouth...so, where exactly, in your view, did this "sin nature" come from? And what is the "sin nature"?

yes, i believe that lucifer was created perfect, and iniquity was found in him, and was expelled from heaven and with that 1/3 of the angles followed him. satan was the start of sin... he was able to pass that to adam and eve thus to you and me... what is sin natrue? pride, what ever breaks our fellowship w God, any thing satan tempts us with and we fail the trial, they can be unintentional... i could go on.

***D7M*** · 02-13-2009, 03:59 PM

Originally Posted by amcon

are you refering to how satan was made?

satan was the anointed cherub that covereth...ezek 28:14 "Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire."

satan (his original name was lucifer) covered the "Throne of God" he was perfect in all his ways from the day that he was created(Gods creations are all perfect) until iniquity was found in him. in him was the "fullness of wisdom" and the "perfection of bueaty" but it was his 'beauty" that caused the pride that was his downfall. he was clothed in a garment that ws covered with the most rate and precious gem, the sardius, topaz, diamond, beryl, onyx, jasper, sapphire, emerald, corbuncle, and woven in with gold, he dwelt in the eden the "garden of God" (eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.) cool hu? pipes were made in him - pipe refers to musical things - remember what he cheribs were made for ? praising God... satan had the special privilage to shine God's light out on to all of the heavens

the above place probabley refers to not just the earthly Eden, but to the 'paradise of God' on high, for satan dwelt on the "holy mount of God" all this is in exek. 28: 11 - 29... the prophet here describes satans original glory form which he fell. the catholic church do they teach this? (no sarcasim, however my time spent talking to and in the catholic church paint avery diff picture of satan... do you know even today satan travles(dont ask me how... satan says he walks) back and forth to heaven and earth to accuse us?)

1. The Catholic tradition has consistently held (from the time of the early fathers) that the word lucifer (meaning brightness, glory) does not actually indicate the actual name of satan, but only indicates the state of glory from which he fell. So, the Catholic tradition has never held that satan (lucifer) was ever actually physically adorned with jewels, since as an angelic being (separated substance), he would not actually have a physical body.

--Do you believe angels have physical bodies?

2. The verses you quote from Ezekiel are most properly understood as metaphorically applied to satan. Primarily they are to be taken literally, as is clear from Ez. 28:12, "Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty." (yes, this is the KJV from the site you posted earlier). So, the literal interpretation, as is clear from the text, refers to the King of Tyre.

Again, it is a prophecy towards the king of Tyre first (literally), and only secondarily is applied metaphorically to the fall of satan. Incidentally, this metaphorical interpretation is confirmed by Christ's words in Luke 10:18 "I saw satan fall from heaven like lightening"

3. Again, satan does not literally walk, as he does not have a physical body.
I assume you're refering to I Peter 5:8 "8: Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour." (KJV). Or perhaps Job 1:7? Regardless, do you really have such an anthropomorphic view of angelic beings? "walking and back forth on the earth" from Job is clearly metaphoric. Similar to how the Psalms describe God as having a "strong arm" or being a "fortress". God does not literally have a strong arm.

4. What is this very different picture that the Catholic church paints of Satan?

**GZA** · 02-13-2009, 08:07 PM

Originally Posted by amcon

i didnt read all of this i keep getting lost with how inaccurate you bible is i will send you a like for king james... you will actually learn more from a different bible - cause you is just very wrong

http://etext.virginia.edu/kjv.browse.html

good luck and good reading (lol) your

actually more than 2/3rds of my response WAS in the KJV as you can tell by the little kjv's listed at the end of almost every single verse for the first 2/3rd's of my paper but I guess you had no respoces for those huh? bother to respond to that and I'll bother to repeat every quote I didn't give in the KJV in exactly the bible you want to read it in. Although of course I've highlighted the fact that you are operating under false ussumptions by only accepting the KJV as worth reading (in that I've highlighted a number of inaccuracies in it already). Nice try though, if I was presented with about 40 quotes in opposition to my faulty interpretation of my about 3 quotes I'd find it a rather daunting task to try to deal with all those facts also.

**GZA** · 02-13-2009, 08:44 PM

Amcon's History Lesson

Ok, amcon... let's back things up a bit and not be so combative... I've taken note that one of the obvious reasons you are so quick to doubt the teachings of the Catholic Church is becuase you've never really heard of all the historical data that plainly shows that the earliest christians all believed as we do. All the ancient Christians interpreted the bible the same as me and derek do... It's funny when I hear you quote the teachings of this or that guy and say he knows what he's talking about and we should to read up on him... these people are living 2,000 years after the fact... that's almost as if I traveled 500 years into the future and tried to argue with the writings of the most ancient muslims as it relates to what muhhamed was teaching his followers when not only am I not some ancient muslim... I don't even know arabic!! Obviously I would have NO IDEA what I'm talking about. Plainly... if all the writings of all the most ancient muslims we have a record of all seemed to suggest a completely different understanding of islam than the one I had... I'd be willing to bet that it was my interpretation that was faulty becuase I lived in a completely different time and understood a completely different language... the culture of the times would be completely lost on me and I really would have no Idea how muhhamed planned for his religion to be taught.. my cursory readings of my english translation of the arabic and my interpretations based on a complete ignorance of the history and culture of islam would be all I had. So let's take a trip through history and investigate what all these ancient Christians had to say about the topics we've been debating so far... because you are not only debating me... you are debating practically every Church father ever lived... for example your concept of sola scriptura (the bible alone) there is no historical record of ANY christian EVER believing in such a thing for the first 1,000 years of Christianity!!! Kind of makes you wonder huh??? either all of the ancient Christians Got it wrong... or simply some english speaking quack from 2,000 years in the future has no Idea what he's talking about when it relates to a culture and language that existed 2,000 years ago.

the first topic deals with how ancient Christians thought of the Eucharist:

Irenaeus

"If the Lord were from other than the Father, how could he rightly take bread, which is of the same creation as our own, and confess it to be his body and affirm that the mixture in the cup is his blood?" (Against Heresies 4:33–32 [A.D. 189]).

"He has declared the cup, a part of creation, to be his own blood, from which he causes our blood to flow; and the bread, a part of creation, he has established as his own body, from which he gives increase unto our bodies. When, therefore, the mixed cup [wine and water] and the baked bread receives the Word of God and becomes the Eucharist, the body of Christ, and from these the substance of our flesh is increased and supported, how can they say that the flesh is not capable of receiving the gift of God, which is eternal life—flesh which is nourished by the body and blood of the Lord, and is in fact a member of him?" (ibid., 5:2).

Clement of Alexandria

"’Eat my flesh,’ [Jesus] says, ‘and drink my blood.’ The Lord supplies us with these intimate nutrients, he delivers over his flesh and pours out his blood, and nothing is lacking for the growth of his children" (The Instructor of Children 1:6:43:3 [A.D. 191]).

Tertullian

"[T]here is not a soul that can at all procure salvation, except it believe whilst it is in the flesh, so true is it that the flesh is the very condition on which salvation hinges. And since the soul is, in consequence of its salvation, chosen to the service of God, it is the flesh which actually renders it capable of such service. The flesh, indeed, is washed [in baptism], in order that the soul may be cleansed . . . the flesh is shadowed with the imposition of hands [in confirmation], that the soul also may be illuminated by the Spirit; the flesh feeds [in the Eucharist] on the body and blood of Christ, that the soul likewise may be filled with God" (The Resurrection of the Dead 8 [A.D. 210]).

Hippolytus

"‘And she [Wisdom] has furnished her table’ [Prov. 9:2] . . . refers to his [Christ’s] honored and undefiled body and blood, which day by day are administered and offered sacrificially at the spiritual divine table, as a memorial of that first and ever-memorable table of the spiritual divine supper [i.e.,
the Last Supper]" (Fragment from Commentary on Proverbs [A.D. 217]).

Origen

"Formerly there was baptism in an obscure way . . . now, however, in full view, there is regeneration in water and in the Holy Spirit. Formerly, in an obscure way, there was manna for food; now, however, in full view, there is the true food, the flesh of the Word of God, as he himself says: ‘My flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink’ [John 6:55]" (Homilies on Numbers 7:2 [A.D. 248]).

Cyprian of Carthage

"He [Paul] threatens, moreover, the stubborn and forward, and denounces them, saying, ‘Whosoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily, is guilty of the body and blood of the Lord’ [1 Cor. 11:27]. All these warnings being scorned and contemned—[lapsed Christians will often take Communion] before their sin is expiated, before confession has been made of their crime, before their conscience has been purged by sacrifice and by the hand of the priest, before the offense of an angry and threatening Lord has been appeased, [and so] violence is done to his body and blood; and they sin now against their Lord more with their hand and mouth than when they denied their Lord" (The Lapsed 15–16 [A.D. 251]).

Council of Nicaea I

"It has come to the knowledge of the holy and great synod that, in some districts and cities, the deacons administer the Eucharist to the presbyters [i.e., priests], whereas neither canon nor custom permits that they who have no right to offer [the Eucharistic sacrifice] should give the Body of Christ to them that do offer [it]" (Canon 18 [A.D. 325]).

Aphraahat the Persian Sage

"After having spoken thus [at the Last Supper], the Lord rose up from the place where he had made the Passover and had given his body as food and his blood as drink, and he went with his disciples to the place where he was to be arrested. But he ate of his own body and drank of his own blood, while he was pondering on the dead. With his own hands the Lord presented his own body to be eaten, and before he was crucified he gave his blood as drink" (Treatises 12:6 [A.D. 340]).

Cyril of Jerusalem

"The bread and the wine of the Eucharist before the holy invocation of the adorable Trinity were simple bread and wine, but the invocation having been made, the bread becomes the body of Christ and the wine the blood of Christ" (Catechetical Lectures 19:7 [A.D. 350]).

"Do not, therefore, regard the bread and wine as simply that; for they are, according to the Master’s declaration, the body and blood of Christ. Even though the senses suggest to you the other, let faith make you firm. Do not judge in this matter by taste, but be fully assured by the faith, not doubting that you have been deemed worthy of the body and blood of Christ. . . . [Since you are] fully convinced that the apparent bread is not bread, even though it is sensible to the taste, but the body of Christ, and that the apparent wine is not wine, even though the taste would have it so, . . . partake of that bread as something spiritual, and put a cheerful face on your soul" (ibid., 22:6, 9).

Ambrose of Milan

"Perhaps you may be saying, ‘I see something else; how can you assure me that I am receiving the body of Christ?’ It but remains for us to prove it. And how many are the examples we might use! . . . Christ is in that sacrament, because it is the body of Christ" (The Mysteries 9:50, 58 [A.D. 390]).

Theodore of Mopsuestia

"When [Christ] gave the bread he did not say, ‘This is the symbol of my body,’ but, ‘This is my body.’ In the same way, when he gave the cup of his blood he did not say, ‘This is the symbol of my blood,’ but, ‘This is my blood’; for he wanted us to look upon the [Eucharistic elements] after their reception of grace and the coming of the Holy Spirit not according to their nature, but receive them as they are, the body and blood of our Lord. We ought . . . not regard [the elements] merely as bread and cup, but as the body and blood of the Lord, into which they were transformed by the descent of the Holy Spirit" (Catechetical Homilies 5:1 [A.D. 405]).

Augustine

"Christ was carried in his own hands when, referring to his own body, he said, ‘This is my body’ [Matt. 26:26]. For he carried that body in his hands" (Explanations of the Psalms 33:1:10 [A.D. 405]).

"I promised you [new Christians], who have now been baptized, a sermon in which I would explain the sacrament of the Lord’s Table. . . . That bread which you see on the altar, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the body of Christ. That chalice, or rather, what is in that chalice, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the blood of Christ" (Sermons 227 [A.D. 411]).

...

"What you see is the bread and the chalice; that is what your own eyes report to you. But what your faith obliges you to accept is that the bread is the body of Christ and the chalice is the blood of Christ. This has been said very briefly, which may perhaps be sufficient for faith; yet faith does not desire instruction" (ibid., 272).

Council of Ephesus

"We will necessarily add this also. Proclaiming the death, according to the flesh, of the only-begotten Son of God, that is Jesus Christ, confessing his resurrection from the dead, and his ascension into heaven, we offer the unbloody sacrifice in the churches, and so go on to the mystical thanksgivings, and are sanctified, having received his holy flesh and the precious blood of Christ the Savior of us all. And not as common flesh do we receive it; God forbid: nor as of a man sanctified and associated with the Word according to the unity of worth, or as having a divine indwelling, but as truly the life-giving and very flesh of the Word himself. For he is the life according to his nature as God, and when he became united to his flesh, he made it also to be life-giving" (Session 1, Letter of Cyril to Nestorius [A.D. 431]).

It's interesting to note that one of the Charges the Ancient Romans leveled against the Ancient Christians during their persecution was that "they claimed to eat their own God"... needless to say the most Ancient Christians agree'd with the Catholic Church on this topic

**GZA** · 02-13-2009, 08:49 PM

Amcon's History Lesson

part 2... the following relates to the use of the word Catholic by ancient Christians:

Ignatius of Antioch

"Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop or by one whom he ordains [i.e., a presbyter]. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church" (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]).

The Martyrdom of Polycarp

"And of the elect, he was one indeed, the wonderful martyr Polycarp, who in our days was an apostolic and prophetic teacher, bishop of the Catholic Church in Smyrna. For every word which came forth from his mouth was fulfilled and will be fulfilled" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 16:2 [A.D. 155]).

The Muratorian Canon

"Besides these [letters of Paul] there is one to Philemon, and one to Titus, and two to Timothy, in affection and love, but nevertheless regarded as holy in the Catholic Church, in the ordering of churchly discipline. There is also one [letter] to the Laodiceans and another to the Alexandrians, forged under the name of Paul, in regard to the heresy of Marcion, and there are several others which cannot be received by the Church, for it is not suitable that gall be mixed with honey. The epistle of Jude, indeed, and the two ascribed to John are received by the Catholic Church (Muratorian fragment [A.D. 177]).

Tertullian

"Where was [the heretic] Marcion, that shipmaster of Pontus, the zealous student of Stoicism? Where was Valentinus, the disciple of Platonism? For it is evident that those men lived not so long ago—in the reign of Antonius for the most part—and that they at first were believers in the doctrine of the Catholic Church, in the church of Rome under the episcopate of the blessed Eleutherius, until on account of their ever restless curiosity, with which they even infected the brethren, they were more than once expelled" (Demurrer Against the Heretics 30 [A.D. 200]).

Cyprian of Carthage

"They alone have remained outside [the Church] who, were they within, would have to be ejected.
. . . There [in John 6:68–69] speaks Peter, upon whom the Church would be built, teaching in the name of the Church and showing that even if a stubborn and proud multitude withdraws because it does not wish to obey, yet the Church does not withdraw from Christ. The people joined to the priest, and the flock clinging to their shepherd in the Church. You ought to know, then, that the bishop is in the Church and the Church in the bishops; and if someone is not with the bishop, he is not in the Church. They vainly flatter themselves who creep up, not having peace with the priest of God, believing that they are secretly in communion with certain individuals. For the Church, which is one and catholic, is not split or divided, but is indeed united and joined by the cement of priests who adhere to one another" (Letters 66[67]:8 [A.D. 253]).

Council of Nicaea I

"But those who say: ‘There was [a time] when he [the Son] was not,’ and ‘before he was born, he was not,’ and ‘because he was made from non-existing matter, he is either of another substance or essence,’ and those who call ‘God the Son of God changeable and mutable,’ these the Catholic Church anathematizes" (Appendix to the Creed of Nicaea [A.D. 325]).

"Concerning those who call themselves Cathari [Novatians], that is, ‘the Clean,’ if at any time they come to the Catholic Church, it has been decided by the holy and great council that, provided they receive the imposition of hands, they remain among the clergy. However, because they are accepting and following the doctrines of the catholic and apostolic Church, it is fitting that they acknowledge this in writing before all; that is, both that they communicate with the twice married and with those who have lapsed during a persecution" (Canon 8).

...

"Concerning the Paulianists who take refuge with the Catholic Church, a decree has been published that they should be fully baptized. If, however, any of these in times past have been in the clerical order, if indeed they have appeared spotless and above reproach, after being baptized, let them be ordained by the bishop of the Catholic Church" (Canon 9).

Cyril of Jerusalem

"[The Church] is called catholic, then, because it extends over the whole world, from end to end of the earth, and because it teaches universally and infallibly each and every doctrine which must come to the knowledge of men, concerning things visible and invisible, heavenly and earthly, and because it brings every race of men into subjection to godliness, governors and governed, learned and unlearned, and because it universally treats and heals every class of sins, those committed with the soul and those with the body, and it possesses within itself every conceivable form of virtue, in deeds and in words and in the spiritual gifts of every description" (Catechetical Lectures 18:23 [A.D. 350]).

"And if you ever are visiting in cities, do not inquire simply where the house of the Lord is—for the others, sects of the impious, attempt to call their dens ‘houses of the Lord’—nor ask merely where the Church is, but where is the Catholic Church. For this is the name peculiar to this holy Church, the mother of us all, which is the spouse of our Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God" (ibid., 18:26).

The Apostles’ Creed

"I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen" (Apostles’ Creed [A.D. 360])

Council of Constantinople I

"I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father, who together with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified, who spoke through the prophets; in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church" (Nicene Creed [A.D. 381]).

"Those who embrace orthodoxy and join the number of those who are being saved from the heretics, we receive in the following regular and customary manner: Arians, Macedonians, Sabbatians, Novatians, those who call themselves Cathars and Aristeri, Quartodecimians or Tetradites, Apollinarians— these we receive when they hand in statements and anathematize every heresy which is not of the same mind as the holy, catholic, and apostolic Church of God" (Canon 7).

Augustine

"We must hold to the Christian religion and to communication in her Church, which is catholic and which is called catholic not only by her own members but even by all her enemies. For when heretics or the adherents of schisms talk about her, not among themselves but with strangers, willy-nilly they call her nothing else but Catholic. For they will not be understood unless they distinguish her by this name which the whole world employs in her regard" (The True Religion 7:12 [A.D. 390]).

"We believe in the holy Church, that is, the Catholic Church; for heretics and schismatics call their own congregations churches. But heretics violate the faith itself by a false opinion about God; schismatics, however, withdraw from fraternal love by hostile separations, although they believe the same things we do. Consequently, neither heretics nor schismatics belong to the Catholic Church; not heretics, because the Church loves God, and not schismatics, because the Church loves neighbor" (Faith and Creed 10:21 [A.D. 393]).

...

""If you should find someone who does not yet believe in the gospel, what would you [Mani] answer him when he says, ‘I do not believe’? Indeed, I would not believe in the gospel myself if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so" (ibid., 5:6).

In the Catholic Church . . . a few spiritual men attain [wisdom] in this life, in such a way that . . . they know it without any doubting, while the rest of the multitude finds [its] greatest safety not in lively understanding but in the simplicity of believing. . . . [T]here are many other things which most properly can keep me in her bosom. The unanimity of peoples and nations keeps me here. Her authority,
inaugurated in miracles, nourished by hope, augmented by love, and confirmed by her age, keeps me here. The succession of priests, from the very see of the apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after his resurrection, gave the charge of feeding his sheep [John 21:15–17], up to the present episcopate, keeps me here. And last, the very name Catholic, which, not without reason, belongs to this Church alone, in the face of so many heretics, so much so that, although all heretics want to be called ‘Catholic,’ when a stranger inquires where the Catholic Church meets, none of the heretics would dare to point out his own basilica or house" (Against the Letter of Mani Called "The Foundation" 4:5 [A.D. 397]).

Vincent of Lerins

"I have often then inquired earnestly and attentively of very many men eminent for sanctity and learning, how and by what sure and so to speak universal rule I may be able to distinguish the truth of Catholic faith from the falsehood of heretical depravity; and I have always, and in almost every instance, received an answer to this effect: that whether I or anyone else should wish to detect the frauds and avoid the snares of heretics as they arise, and to continue sound and complete in the Catholic faith, we must, the Lord helping, fortify our own belief in two ways: first, by the authority of the divine law [Scripture], and then by the tradition of the Catholic Church. But here some one perhaps will ask, ‘Since the canon of Scripture is complete, and sufficient of itself for everything, and more than sufficient, what need is there to join with it the authority of the Church’s interpretation?’ For this reason: Because, owing to the depth of holy Scripture, all do not accept it in one and the same sense, but one understands its words in one way, another in another, so that it seems to be capable of as many interpretations as there are men. . . . Therefore, it is very necessary, on account of so great intricacies of such various errors, that the rule for the right understanding of the prophets and apostles should be framed in accordance with the standard of ecclesiastical and catholic interpretation" (The Notebooks 2:1–2 [A.D. 434]).

Council of Chalcedon

"Since in certain provinces readers and cantors have been allowed to marry, this sacred synod decrees that none of them is permitted to marry a wife of heterodox views. If those thus married have already had children, and if they have already had the children baptized among heretics, they are to bring them into the communion of the Catholic Church" (Canon 14 [A.D. 451]).

**GZA** · 02-13-2009, 08:52 PM

Amcon's History Lesson

Part 3: the following relates to how ancient Christians regarded Apostolic Tradition

Papias

"Papias [A.D. 120], who is now mentioned by us, affirms that he received the sayings of the apostles from those who accompanied them, and he, moreover, asserts that he heard in person Aristion and the presbyter John. Accordingly, he mentions them frequently by name, and in his writings gives their traditions [concerning Jesus]. . . . [There are] other passages of his in which he relates some miraculous deeds, stating that he acquired the knowledge of them from tradition" (fragment in Eusebius, Church History 3:39 [A.D. 312]).

Eusebius of Caesarea

"At that time [A.D. 150] there flourished in the Church Hegesippus, whom we know from what has gone before, and Dionysius, bishop of Corinth, and another bishop, Pinytus of Crete, and besides these, Philip, and Apollinarius, and Melito, and Musanus, and Modestus, and, finally, Irenaeus. From them has come down to us in writing, the sound and orthodox faith received from tradition" (Church History 4:21).

Irenaeus

"As I said before, the Church, having received this preaching and this faith, although she is disseminated throughout the whole world, yet guarded it, as if she occupied but one house. She likewise believes these things just as if she had but one soul and one and the same heart; and harmoniously she proclaims them and teaches them and hands them down, as if she possessed but one mouth. For, while the languages of the world are diverse, nevertheless, the authority of the tradition is one and the same" (Against Heresies 1:10:2 [A.D. 189]).

"That is why it is surely necessary to avoid them [heretics], while cherishing with the utmost diligence the things pertaining to the Church, and to lay hold of the tradition of truth. . . . What if the apostles had not in fact left writings to us? Would it not be necessary to follow the order of tradition, which was handed down to those to whom they entrusted the churches?" (ibid., 3:4:1).

...

"It is possible, then, for everyone in every church, who may wish to know the truth, to contemplate the tradition of the apostles which has been made known throughout the whole world. And we are in a position to enumerate those who were instituted bishops by the apostles and their successors to our own times—men who neither knew nor taught anything like these heretics rave about.

"But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the successions of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles.

"With this church, because of its superior origin, all churches must agree—that is, all the faithful in the whole world—and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition" (ibid., 3:3:1–2).

Clement of Alexandria

"Well, they preserving the tradition of the blessed doctrine derived directly from the holy apostles, Peter, James, John, and Paul, the sons receiving it from the father (but few were like the fathers), came by God’s will to us also to deposit those ancestral and apostolic seeds. And well I know that they will exult; I do not mean delighted with this tribute, but solely on account of the preservation of the truth, according as they delivered it. For such a sketch as this, will, I think, be agreeable to a soul desirous of preserving from loss the blessed tradition" (Miscellanies 1:1 [A.D. 208]).

Origen

"Although there are many who believe that they themselves hold to the teachings of Christ, there are yet some among them who think differently from their predecessors. The teaching of the Church has indeed been handed down through an order of succession from the apostles and remains in the churches even to the present time. That alone is to be believed as the truth which is in no way at variance with ecclesiastical and apostolic tradition" (The Fundamental Doctrines 1:2 [A.D. 225]).

Cyprian of Carthage

"[T]he Church is one, and as she is one, cannot be both within and without. For if she is with Novatian, she was not with [Pope] Cornelius. But if she was with Cornelius, who succeeded the bishop Fabian by lawful ordination, and whom, beside the honor of the priesthood the Lord glorified also with martyrdom, Novatian is not in the Church; nor can he be reckoned as a bishop, who, succeeding to no one, and despising the evangelical and apostolic tradition, sprang from himself. For he who has not been ordained in the Church can neither have nor hold to the Church in any way" (Letters 75:3 [A.D. 253]).

Athanasius

"Again we write, again keeping to the apostolic traditions, we remind each other when we come together for prayer; and keeping the feast in common, with one mouth we truly give thanks to the Lord. Thus giving thanks unto him, and being followers of the saints, ‘we shall make our praise in the Lord all the day,’ as the psalmist says. So, when we rightly keep the feast, we shall be counted worthy of that joy which is in heaven" (Festal Letters 2:7 [A.D. 330]).

"But you are blessed, who by faith are in the Church, dwell upon the foundations of the faith, and have full satisfaction, even the highest degree of faith which remains among you unshaken. For it has come down to you from apostolic tradition, and frequently accursed envy has wished to unsettle it, but has not been able" (ibid., 29).

Basil the Great

"Of the dogmas and messages preserved in the Church, some we possess from written teaching and others we receive from the tradition of the apostles, handed on to us in mystery. In respect to piety, both are of the same force. No one will contradict any of these, no one, at any rate, who is even moderately versed in matters ecclesiastical. Indeed, were we to try to reject unwritten customs as having no great authority, we would unwittingly injure the gospel in its vitals; or rather, we would reduce [Christian] message to a mere term" (The Holy Spirit 27:66 [A.D. 375]).

Epiphanius of Salamis

"It is needful also to make use of tradition, for not everything can be gotten from sacred Scripture. The holy apostles handed down some things in the scriptures, other things in tradition" (Medicine Chest Against All Heresies 61:6 [A.D. 375]).

Augustine

"[T]he custom [of not rebaptizing converts] . . . may be supposed to have had its origin in apostolic tradition, just as there are many things which are observed by the whole Church, and therefore are fairly held to have been enjoined by the apostles, which yet are not mentioned in their writings" (On Baptism, Against the Donatists 5:23[31] [A.D. 400]).

"But the admonition that he [Cyprian] gives us, ‘that we should go back to the fountain, that is, to apostolic tradition, and thence turn the channel of truth to our times,’ is most excellent, and should be followed without hesitation" (ibid., 5:26[37]).

"But in regard to those observances which we carefully attend and which the whole world keeps, and which derive not from Scripture but from Tradition, we are given to understand that they are recommended and ordained to be kept, either by the apostles themselves or by plenary [ecumenical] councils, the authority of which is quite vital in the Church" (Letter to Januarius [A.D. 400]).

John Chrysostom

"[Paul commands,] ‘Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you have been taught, whether by word or by our letter’ [2 Thess. 2:15]. From this it is clear that they did not hand down everything by letter, but there is much also that was not written. Like that which was written, the unwritten too is worthy of belief. So let us regard the tradition of the Church also as worthy of belief. Is it a tradition? Seek no further" (Homilies on Second Thessalonians [A.D. 402]).

Vincent of Lerins

"With great zeal and closest attention, therefore, I frequently inquired of many men, eminent for their holiness and doctrine, how I might, in a concise and, so to speak, general and ordinary way, distinguish the truth of the Catholic faith from the falsehood of heretical depravity.

"I received almost always the same answer from all of them—that if I or anyone else wanted to expose the frauds and escape the snares of the heretics who rise up, and to remain intact and in sound faith, it would be necessary, with the help of the Lord, to fortify that faith in a twofold manner: first, of course, by the authority of divine law [Scripture] and then by the tradition of the Catholic Church.

"Here, perhaps, someone may ask: ‘If the canon of the scriptures be perfect and in itself more than suffices for everything, why is it necessary that the authority of ecclesiastical interpretation be joined to it?’ Because, quite plainly, sacred Scripture, by reason of its own depth, is not accepted by everyone as having one and the same meaning. . . .

"Thus, because of so many distortions of such various errors, it is highly necessary that the line of prophetic and apostolic interpretation be directed in accord with the norm of the ecclesiastical and Catholic meaning" (The Notebooks [A.D. 434]).

Pope Agatho

"[T]he holy Church of God . . . has been established upon the firm rock of this Church of blessed Peter, the prince of the apostles, which by his grace and guardianship remains free from all error, [and possesses that faith that] the whole number of rulers and priests, of the clergy and of the people, unanimously should confess and preach with us as the true declaration of the apostolic tradition, in order to please God and to save their own souls" (Letter read at fourth session of III Constantinople [A.D. 680]).

**GZA** · 02-13-2009, 08:55 PM

Amcon's History Lesson

Part 4: the following relates to how Ancient Christians used and regarded the 7 books which were taken out of your bible as equally authoritative and scriptural (in other words, ancient Christians accepted the 7 books Catholics accept, but you reject)

The Didache

"You shall not waver with regard to your decisions [Sir. 1:28]. Do not be someone who stretches out his hands to receive but withdraws them when it comes to giving [Sir. 4:31]" (Didache 4:5 [A.D. 70]).

The Letter of Barnabas

"Since, therefore, [Christ] was about to be manifested and to suffer in the flesh, his suffering was foreshown. For the prophet speaks against evil, ‘Woe to their soul, because they have counseled an evil counsel against themselves’ [Is. 3:9], saying, ‘Let us bind the righteous man because he is displeasing to us’ [Wis. 2:12.]" (Letter of Barnabas 6:7 [A.D. 74]).

Clement of Rome

"By the word of his might [God] established all things, and by his word he can overthrow them. ‘Who shall say to him, "What have you done?" or who shall resist the power of his strength?’ [Wis. 12:12]" (Letter to the Corinthians 27:5 [ca. A.D. 80]).

Polycarp of Smyrna

"Stand fast, therefore, in these things, and follow the example of the Lord, being firm and unchangeable in the faith, loving the brotherhood [1 Pet. 2:17].
. . . When you can do good, defer it not, because ‘alms delivers from death’ [Tob. 4:10, 12:9]. Be all of you subject to one another [1 Pet. 5:5], having your conduct blameless among the Gentiles [1 Pet. 2:12], and the Lord may not be blasphemed through you. But woe to him by whom the name of the Lord is blasphemed [Is. 52:5]!" (Letter to the Philadelphians 10 [A.D. 135]).

Irenaeus

"Those . . . who are believed to be presbyters by many, but serve their own lusts and do not place the fear of God supreme in their hearts, but conduct themselves with contempt toward others and are puffed up with the pride of holding the chief seat [Matt. 23:6] and work evil deeds in secret, saying ‘No man sees us,’ shall be convicted by the Word, who does not judge after outward appearance, nor looks upon the countenance, but the heart; and they shall hear those words to be found in Daniel the prophet: ‘O you seed of Canaan and not of Judah, beauty has deceived you and lust perverted your heart’ [Dan. 13:56]. You that have grown old in wicked days, now your sins which you have committed before have come to light, for you have pronounced false judgments and have been accustomed to condemn the innocent and to let the guilty go free, although the Lord says, ‘You shall not slay the innocent and the righteous’ [Dan. 13:52, citing Ex. 23:7]" (Against Heresies 4:26:3 [A.D. 189]; Daniel 13 is not in the Protestant Bible).

"Jeremiah the prophet has pointed out that as many believers as God has prepared for this purpose, to multiply those left on the earth, should both be under the rule of the saints and to minister to this [new] Jerusalem and that [his] kingdom shall be in it, saying, ‘Look around Jerusalem toward the east and behold the joy which comes to you from God himself. Behold, your sons whom you have sent forth shall come: They shall come in a band from the east to the west. . . . God shall go before with you in the light of his splendor, with the mercy and righteousness which proceed from him’ [Bar. 4:36—5:9]" (ibid., 5:35:1; Baruch was often considered part of Jeremiah, as it is here).

Hippolytus

"What is narrated here [in the story of Susannah] happened at a later time, although it is placed at the front of the book [of Daniel], for it was a custom with the writers to narrate many things in an inverted order in their writings. . . . [W]e ought to give heed, beloved, fearing lest anyone be overtaken in any transgression and risk the loss of his soul, knowing as we do that God is the judge of all and the Word himself is the eye which nothing that is done in the world escapes. Therefore, always watchful in heart and pure in life, let us imitate Susannah" (Commentary on Daniel [A.D. 204]; the story of Susannah [Dan. 13] is not in the Protestant Bible).

Cyprian of Carthage

"In Genesis [it says], ‘And God tested Abraham and said to him, "Take your only son whom you love, Isaac, and go to the high land and offer him there as a burnt offering . . ."’ [Gen. 22:1–2]. . . . Of this same thing in the Wisdom of Solomon [it says], ‘Although in the sight of men they suffered torments, their hope is full of immortality . . .’ [Wis. 3:4]. Of this same thing in the Maccabees [it says], ‘Was not Abraham found faithful when tested, and it was reckoned to him for righteousness’ [1 Macc. 2:52; see Jas. 2:21–23]" (Treatises 7:3:15 [A.D. 248]).

"So Daniel, too, when he was required to worship the idol Bel, which the people and the king then worshipped, in asserting the honor of his God, broke forth with full faith and freedom, saying, ‘I worship nothing but the Lord my God, who created the heaven and the earth’ [Dan. 14:5]" (Letters 55:5 [A.D. 253]; Daniel 14 is not in the Protestant Bible).

Council of Rome

"Now indeed we must treat of the divine scriptures, what the universal Catholic Church accepts and what she ought to shun. The order of the Old Testament begins here: Genesis, one book; Exodus, one book; Leviticus, one book; Numbers, one book; Deuteronomy, one book; Joshua [Son of] Nave, one book; Judges, one book; Ruth, one book; Kings, four books [that is, 1 and 2 Samuel and 1 and 2 Kings]; Paralipomenon [Chronicles], two books; Psalms, one book; Solomon, three books: Proverbs, one book, Ecclesiastes, one book, [and] Canticle of Canticles [Song of Songs], one book; likewise Wisdom, one book; Ecclesiasticus [Sirach], one book . . . . Likewise the order of the historical [books]: Job, one book; Tobit, one book; Esdras, two books [Ezra and Nehemiah]; Esther, one book; Judith, one book; Maccabees, two books" (Decree of Pope Damasus [A.D. 382]).

Council of Hippo

"[It has been decided] that besides the canonical scriptures nothing be read in church under the name of divine Scripture. But the canonical scriptures are
as follows: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua the Son of Nun, Judges, Ruth, the Kings, four books, the Chronicles, two books, Job, the Psalter, the five books of Solomon [Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs, Wisdom, and a portion of the Psalms], the twelve books of the prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, Tobit, Judith, Esther, Ezra, two books, Maccabees, two books . . ." (Canon 36 [A.D. 393]).

Council of Carthage III

"[It has been decided] that nothing except the canonical scriptures should be read in the Church under the name of the divine scriptures. But the canonical scriptures are: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Ruth, four books of Kings, Paralipomenon, two books, Job, the Psalter of David, five books of Solomon, twelve books of the prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, Tobit, Judith, Esther, two books of Esdras, two books of the Maccabees . . ." (Canon 47 [A.D. 397]).

Augustine

"The whole canon of the scriptures, however, in which we say that consideration is to be applied, is contained in these books: the five of Moses . . . and one book of Joshua [Son of] Nave, one of Judges; one little book which is called Ruth . . . then the four of Kingdoms, and the two of Paralipomenon . . . . [T]here are also others too, of a different order . . . such as Job and Tobit and Esther and Judith and the two books of Maccabees, and the two of Esdras . . . . Then there are the prophets, in which there is one book of the Psalms of David, and three of Solomon. . . . But as to those two books, one of which is entitled Wisdom and the other of which is entitled Ecclesiasticus and which are called ‘of Solomon’ because of a certain similarity to his books, it is held most certainly that they were written by Jesus Sirach. They must, however, be accounted among the prophetic books, because of the authority which is deservedly accredited to them" (Christian Instruction 2:8:13 [A.D. 397]).

"We read in the books of the Maccabees [2 Macc. 12:43] that sacrifice was offered for the dead. But even if it were found nowhere in the Old Testament writings, the authority of the Catholic Church which is clear on this point is of no small weight, where in the prayers of the priest poured forth to the Lord God at his altar the commendation of the dead has its place" (The Care to be Had for the Dead 1:3 [A.D. 421]).

The Apostolic Constitutions

"Now women also prophesied. Of old, Miriam the sister of Moses and Aaron [Ex. 15:20], and after her, Deborah [Judges. 4:4], and after these Huldah [2 Kgs. 22:14] and Judith [Judith 8], the former under Josiah and the latter under Darius" (Apostolic Constitutions 8:2 [A.D. 400]).

Jerome

"What sin have I committed if I follow the judgment of the churches? But he who brings charges against me for relating [in my preface to the book of Daniel] the objections that the Hebrews are wont to raise against the story of Susannah [Dan. 13], the Song of the Three Children [Dan. 3:29–68, RSV-CE], and the story of Bel and the Dragon [Dan. 14], which are not found in the Hebrew volume, proves that he is just a foolish sycophant. I was not relating my own personal views, but rather the remarks that they are wont to make against us. If I did not reply to their views in my preface, in the interest of brevity, lest it seem that I was composing not a preface, but a book, I believe I added promptly the remark, for I said, ‘This is not the time to discuss such matters’" (Against Rufinius 11:33 [A.D. 401]).

Pope Innocent I

"A brief addition shows what books really are received in the canon. These are the things of which you desired to be informed verbally: of Moses, five books, that is, of Genesis, of Exodus, of Leviticus, of Numbers, of Deuteronomy, and Joshua, of Judges, one book, of Kings, four books, and also Ruth, of the prophets, sixteen books, of Solomon, five books, the Psalms. Likewise of the histories, Job, one book, of Tobit, one book, Esther, one, Judith, one, of the Maccabees, two, of Esdras, two, Paralipomenon, two books . . ." (Letters 7 [A.D. 408]).

**GZA** · 02-13-2009, 08:59 PM

Amcon's History Lesson
Part 5: the following relates to how the Ancient Christians understood that authority given to the Apostles is to be handed down through the generations and anyone who disagrees with those who wield this authority are in error

Pope Clement I

"Through countryside and city [the apostles] preached, and they appointed their earliest converts, testing them by the Spirit, to be the bishops and deacons of future believers. Nor was this a novelty, for bishops and deacons had been written about a long time earlier. . . . Our apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry" (Letter to the Corinthians 42:4–5, 44:1–3 [A.D. 80]).

Hegesippus

"When I had come to Rome, I [visited] Anicetus, whose deacon was Eleutherus. And after Anicetus [died], Soter succeeded, and after him Eleutherus. In each succession and in each city there is a continuance of that which is proclaimed by the law, the prophets, and the Lord" (Memoirs, cited in Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History 4:22 [A.D. 180]).

Irenaeus

"It is possible, then, for everyone in every church, who may wish to know the truth, to contemplate the tradition of the apostles which has been made known to us throughout the whole world. And we are in a position to enumerate those who were instituted bishops by the apostles and their successors down to our own times, men who neither knew nor taught anything like what these heretics rave about" (Against Heresies 3:3:1 [A.D. 189]).

"But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the successions of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul—that church which has the tradition and the faith with which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. For with this Church, because of its superior origin, all churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world. And it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition" (ibid., 3:3:2).

"Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles in Asia, appointed bishop of the church in Smyrna, whom I also saw in my early youth, for he tarried [on earth] a very long time, and, when a very old man, gloriously and most nobly suffering martyrdom, departed this life, having always taught the things which he had learned from the apostles, and which the Church has handed down, and which alone are true. To these things all the Asiatic churches testify, as do also those men who have succeeded Polycarp down to the present time" (ibid., 3:3:4).

"Since therefore we have such proofs, it is not necessary to seek the truth among others which it is easy to obtain from the Church; since the apostles, like a rich man [depositing his money] in a bank, lodged in her hands most copiously all things pertaining to the truth, so that every man, whosoever will, can draw from her the water of life. . . . For how stands the case? Suppose there arise a dispute relative to some important question among us, should we not have recourse to the most ancient churches with which the apostles held constant conversation, and learn from them what is certain and clear in regard to the present question?" (ibid., 3:4:1).

"[I]t is incumbent to obey the presbyters who are in the Church—those who, as I have shown, possess the succession from the apostles; those who, together with the succession of the episcopate, have received the infallible charism of truth, according to the good pleasure of the Father. But [it is also incumbent] to hold in suspicion others who depart from the primitive succession, and assemble themselves together in any place whatsoever, either as heretics of perverse minds, or as schismatics puffed up and self-pleasing, or again as hypocrites, acting thus for the sake of lucre and vainglory. For all these have fallen from the truth" (ibid., 4:26:2).

"The true knowledge is the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient organization of the Church throughout the whole world, and the manifestation of the body of Christ according to the succession of bishops, by which succession the bishops have handed down the Church which is found everywhere" (ibid., 4:33:8).

Tertullian

"[The apostles] founded churches in every city, from which all the other churches, one after another, derived the tradition of the faith, and the seeds of doctrine, and are every day deriving them, that they may become churches. Indeed, it is on this account only that they will be able to deem themselves apostolic, as being the offspring of apostolic churches. Every sort of thing must necessarily revert to its original for its classification. Therefore the churches, although they are so many and so great, comprise but the one primitive Church, [founded] by the apostles, from which they all [spring]. In this way, all are primitive, and all are apostolic, while they are all proved to be one in unity" (Demurrer Against the Heretics 20 [A.D. 200]).

"[W]hat it was which Christ revealed to them [the apostles] can, as I must here likewise prescribe, properly be proved in no other way than by those very churches which the apostles founded in person, by declaring the gospel to them directly themselves . . . If then these things are so, it is in the same degree manifest that all doctrine which agrees with the apostolic churches—those molds and original sources of the faith must be reckoned for truth, as undoubtedly containing that which the churches received from the apostles, the apostles from Christ, [and] Christ from God. Whereas all doctrine must be prejudged as false which savors of contrariety to the truth of the churches and apostles of Christ and God. It remains, then, that we demonstrate whether this doctrine of ours, of which we have now given the rule, has its origin in the tradition of the apostles, and whether all other doctrines do not ipso facto proceed from falsehood" (ibid., 21).

"But if there be any [heresies] which are bold enough to plant [their origin] in the midst of the apostolic age, that they may thereby seem to have been handed down by the apostles, because they existed in the time of the apostles, we can say: Let them produce the original records of their churches; let them unfold the roll of their bishops, running down in due succession from the beginning in such a manner that [their first] bishop shall be able to show for his ordainer and predecessor some one of the apostles or of apostolic men—a man, moreover, who continued steadfast with the apostles. For this is the manner in which the apostolic churches transmit their registers: as the church of Smyrna, which records that Polycarp was placed therein by John; as also the church of Rome, which makes Clement to have been ordained in like manner by Peter" (ibid., 32).

"But should they even effect the contrivance [of composing a succession list for themselves], they will not advance a step. For their very doctrine, after comparison with that of the apostles [as contained in other churches], will declare, by its own diversity and contrariety, that it had for its author neither an apostle nor an apostolic man; because, as the apostles would never have taught things which were self-contradictory" (ibid.).

"Then let all the heresies, when challenged to these two tests by our apostolic Church, offer their proof of how they deem themselves to be apostolic. But in truth they neither are so, nor are they able to prove themselves to be what they are not. Nor are they admitted to peaceful relations and communion by such churches as are in any way connected with apostles, inasmuch as they are in no sense themselves apostolic because of their diversity as to the mysteries of the faith" (ibid.).

Cyprian of Carthage

"[T]he Church is one, and as she is one, cannot be both within and without. For if she is with [the heretic] Novatian, she was not with [Pope] Cornelius. But if she was with Cornelius, who succeeded the bishop [of Rome], Fabian, by lawful ordination, and whom, beside the honor of the priesthood the Lord glorified also with martyrdom, Novatian is not in the Church; nor can he be reckoned as a bishop, who, succeeding to no one, and despising the evangelical and apostolic tradition, sprang from himself. For he who has not been ordained in the Church can neither have nor hold to the Church in any way" (Letters 69[75]:3 [A.D. 253]).

Jerome

"Far be it from me to speak adversely of any of these clergy who, in succession from the apostles, confect by their sacred word the Body of Christ and through whose efforts also it is that we are Christians" (Letters 14:8 [A.D. 396]).

Augustine

"[T]here are many other things which most properly can keep me in [the Catholic Church’s] bosom. The unanimity of peoples and nations keeps me here. Her authority, inaugurated in miracles, nourished by hope, augmented by love, and confirmed by her age, keeps me here. The succession of priests, from the very see of the apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after his resurrection, gave the charge of feeding his sheep [John 21:15–17], up to the present episcopate, keeps me here. And last, the very name Catholic, which, not without reason, belongs to this Church alone, in the face of so many heretics, so much so that, although all heretics want to be called ‘Catholic,’ when a stranger inquires where the Catholic Church meets, none of the heretics would dare to point out his own basilica or house" (Against the Letter of Mani Called "The Foundation" 4:5 [A.D. 397]).

**GZA** · 02-13-2009, 09:02 PM

Amcon's History Lesson
Part 6: The following relates to quotes from ancient history which illustrate the fact that it was understood that the Bishop the Rome (the Pope) had supreme authority over the entire Church. And that he was given this authority by Jesus Christ himself:

Pope Clement I

"Owing to the sudden and repeated calamities and misfortunes which have befallen us, we must acknowledge that we have been somewhat tardy in turning our attention to the matters in dispute among you, beloved; and especially that abominable and unholy sedition, alien and foreign to the elect of God, which a few rash and self-willed persons have inflamed to such madness that your venerable and illustrious name, worthy to be loved by all men, has been greatly defamed. . . . Accept our counsel and you will have nothing to regret. . . . If anyone disobey the things which have been said by him [God] through us [i.e., that you must reinstate your leaders], let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and in no small danger. . . . You will afford us joy and gladness if being obedient to the things which we have written through the Holy Spirit, you will root out the wicked passion of jealousy" (Letter to the Corinthians 1, 58–59, 63 [A.D. 80]).

Hermas

"Therefore shall you [Hermas] write two little books and send one to Clement [Bishop of Rome] and one to Grapte. Clement shall then send it to the cities abroad, because that is his duty" (The Shepherd 2:4:3 [A.D. 80]).

Ignatius of Antioch

"Ignatius . . . to the church also which holds the presidency, in the location of the country of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honor, worthy of blessing, worthy of praise, worthy of success, worthy of sanctification, and, because you hold the presidency in love, named after Christ and named after the Father" (Letter to the Romans 1:1 [A.D. 110]).

"You [the church at Rome] have envied no one, but others you have taught. I desire only that what you have enjoined in your instructions may remain in force" (ibid., 3:1).

Dionysius of Corinth

"For from the beginning it has been your custom to do good to all the brethren in various ways and to send contributions to all the churches in every city. . . . This custom your blessed Bishop Soter has not only preserved, but is augmenting, by furnishing an abundance of supplies to the saints and by urging with consoling words, as a loving father his children, the brethren who are journeying" (Letter to Pope Soter in Eusebius, Church History 4:23:9 [A.D. 170]).

"Today we have observed the Lord’s holy day, in which we have read your letter [Pope Soter]. Whenever we do read it [in church], we shall be able to profit thereby, as also we do when we read the earlier letter written to us by Clement" (ibid., 4:23:11).

The Martyrs of Lyons

"And when a dissension arose about these said people [the Montanists], the brethren in Gaul once more . . . [sent letters] to the brethren in Asia and Phrygia and, moreover to Eleutherius, who was then [A.D. 175] bishop of the Romans, negotiating for the peace of the churches" (Eusebius, Church History 5:3:4 [A.D. 312])

"And the same martyrs too commended Irenaeus, already at that time [A.D. 175] a presbyter of the community of Lyons, to the said bishop of Rome, rendering abundant testimony to the man, as the following expressions show: ‘Once more and always we pray that you may rejoice in God, Pope Eleutherius. This letter we have charged our brother and companion Irenaeus to convey to you, and we beg you to receive him as zealous for the covenant of Christ’" (ibid., 5:4:1–2).

Irenaeus

"But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition" (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [A.D. 189]).

Eusebius of Caesarea

"A question of no small importance arose at that time [A.D. 190]. For the parishes of all Asia [Minor], as from an older tradition held that the fourteenth day of the moon, on which the Jews were commanded to sacrifice the lamb, should be observed as the feast of the Savior’s Passover. . . . But it was not the custom of the churches in the rest of the world . . . as they observed the practice which, from apostolic tradition, has prevailed to the present time, of terminating the fast [of Lent] on no other day than on that of the resurrection of the Savior [Sunday]. Synods and assemblies of bishops were held on this account, and all, with one consent, through mutual correspondence drew up an ecclesiastical decree that the mystery of the resurrection of the Lord should be celebrated on no other but the Lord’s day and that we should observe the close of the paschal fast on this day only. . . . Thereupon [Pope] Victor, who presided over the church at Rome, immediately attempted to cut off from the community the parishes of all Asia [Minor], with the churches that agreed with them, as heterodox. And he wrote letters and declared all the brethren there wholly excommunicate. But this did not please all the bishops, and they besought him to consider the things of peace and of neighborly unity and love. . . . [Irenaeus] fittingly admonishes Victor that he should not cut off whole churches of God which observed the tradition of an ancient custom" (Church History 5:23:1–24:11).

"Thus then did Irenaeus entreat and negotiate [with Pope Victor] on behalf of the peace of the churches—[Irenaeus being] a man well-named, for he was a peacemaker both in name and character. And he corresponded by letter not only with Victor, but also with very many and various rulers of churches" (ibid., 24:18).

Cyprian of Carthage

"The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ he says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. And to you I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever things you bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth, they shall be loosed also in heaven’ [Matt. 16:18–19]). ... On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were also what Peter was [i.e., apostles], but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all [the apostles] are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?" (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4; 1st edition [A.D. 251]).

"Cyprian to [Pope] Cornelius, his brother. Greeting. . . . We decided to send and are sending a letter to you from all throughout the province [where I am] so that all our colleagues might give their decided approval and support to you and to your communion, that is, to both the unity and the charity of the Catholic Church" (Letters 48:1, 3 [A.D. 253]).

"Cyprian to Antonian, his brother. Greeting ... You wrote ... that I should forward a copy of the same letter to our colleague [Pope] Cornelius, so that, laying aside all anxiety, he might at once know that you held communion with him, that is, with the Catholic Church" (ibid., 55[52]:1).

"Cornelius was made bishop by the decision of God and of his Christ, by the testimony of almost all the clergy, by the applause of the people then present, by the college of venerable priests and good men ... when the place of Fabian, which is the place of Peter, the dignity of the sacerdotal chair, was vacant. Since it has been occupied both at the will of God and with the ratified consent of all of us, whoever now wishes to become bishop must do so outside [the Church]. For he cannot have ecclesiastical rank who does not hold to the unity of the Church" (ibid., 55[52]:8).

"With a false bishop appointed for themselves by heretics, they dare even to set sail and carry letters from schismatics and blasphemers to the chair of Peter and to the principal church [at Rome], in which sacerdotal unity has its source" (ibid., 59:14).

Firmilian

"[Pope] Stephen ... boasts of the place of his episcopate, and contends that he holds the succession from Peter, on whom the foundations of the Church were laid [Matt. 16:18]. ... Stephen ... announces that he holds by succession the throne of Peter" (collected in Cyprian’s Letters 74[75]:17 [A.D. 253]).

Pope Julius I

"[The] judgment [concerning Athanasius] ought to have been made, not as it was, but according to the ecclesiastical canon. It behooved all of you to write us so that the justice of it might be seen as emanating from all. ... Are you ignorant that the custom has been to write first to us and then for a just decision to be passed from this place [Rome]? If, then, any such suspicion rested upon the bishop there [Athanasius of Alexandria], notice of it ought to have been written to the church here. But now, after having done as they pleased, they want to obtain our concurrence, although we never condemned him. Not thus are the constitutions of Paul, not thus the traditions of the Fathers. This is another form of procedure, and a novel practice. ... What I write about this is for the common good. For what we have heard from the blessed apostle Peter, these things I signify to you" (Letter on Behalf of Athanasius [A.D. 341], in Athanasius, Apology Against the Arians 20–35).

Council of Sardica

"[I]f any bishop loses the judgment in some case [decided by his fellow bishops] and still believes that he has not a bad but a good case, in order that the case may be judged anew . . . let us honor the memory of the apostle Peter by having those who have given the judgment write to Julius, Bishop of Rome, so that if it seem proper he may himself send arbiters and the judgment may be made again by the bishops of a neighboring province" (canon 3 [A.D. 342]).

"[I]f some bishop be deposed by the judgment of the bishops sitting in the neighborhood, and if he declare that he will seek further redress, another should not be appointed to his see until the bishop of Rome can be acquainted with the case and render a judgment" (canon 4).

Optatus of Milevus

"In the city of Rome the episcopal chair was given first to Peter; the chair in which Peter sat, the same who was head—that is why he is also called Cephas [‘Rock’]—of all the apostles, the one chair in which unity is maintained by all. Neither do the apostles proceed individually on their own, and anyone who would [presume to] set up another chair in opposition to that single chair would, by that very fact, be a schismatic and a sinner. . . . Recall, then, the origins of your chair, those of you who wish to claim for yourselves the title of holy Church" (The Schism of the Donatists 2:2 [A.D. 367]).

Council of Constantinople I

"The bishop of Constantinople shall have the primacy of honor after the bishop of Rome, because his city is New Rome" (canon 3 [A.D. 381]).

Pope Damasus I

"Likewise it is decreed . . . that it ought to be announced that . . . the holy Roman Church has been placed at the forefront not by the conciliar decisions of other churches, but has received the primacy by the evangelic voice of our Lord and Savior, who says: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it; and I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you shall have bound on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you shall have loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven’ [Matt. 16:18–19]. The first see, therefore, is that of Peter the apostle, that of the Roman Church, which has neither stain nor blemish nor anything like it" (Decree of Damasus 3 [A.D. 382]).

Synod of Ambrose

"We recognize in the letter of your holiness [Pope Siricius] the vigilance of the good shepherd. You faithfully watch over the gate entrusted to you, and with pious care you guard Christ’s sheepfold [John 10:7ff], you that are worthy to have the Lord’s sheep hear and follow you" (Synodal Letter to Pope Siricius [A.D. 389]).

Jerome

"I follow no leader but Christ and join in communion with none but your blessedness [Pope Damasus I], that is, with the chair of Peter. I know that this is the rock on which the Church has been built. Whoever eats the Lamb outside this house is profane. Anyone who is not in the ark of Noah will perish when the flood prevails" (Letters 15:2 [A.D. 396]).

"The church here is split into three parts, each eager to seize me for its own. . . . Meanwhile I keep crying, ‘He that is joined to the chair of Peter is accepted by me!’ . . . Therefore, I implore your blessedness [Pope Damasus I] . . . tell me by letter with whom it is that I should communicate in Syria" (ibid., 16:2).

Augustine

"There are many other things which rightly keep me in the bosom of the Catholic Church. The consent of the people and nations keeps me, her authority keeps me, inaugurated by miracles, nourished in hope, enlarged by love, and established by age. The succession of priests keep me, from the very seat of the apostle Peter (to whom the Lord after his resurrection gave charge to feed his sheep) down to the present episcopate [of Pope Siricius]" (Against the Letter of Mani Called "The Foundation" 5 [A.D. 397]).

"[On this matter of the Pelagians] two councils have already been sent to the Apostolic See [the bishop of Rome], and from there rescripts too have come. The matter is at an end; would that the error too might be at an end!" (Sermons 131:10 [A.D. 411]).

Pope Innocent I

"If cases of greater importance are to be heard [at a council], they are, as the synod decrees and as happy custom requires, after episcopal judgment, to be referred to the Apostolic See" (Letters 2:3:6 [A.D. 408]).

"In seeking the things of God . . . following the examples of ancient tradition . . . you have strengthened . . . the vigor of your religion with true reason, for you have acknowledged that judgment is to be referred to us, and have shown that you know what is owed to the Apostolic See, if all of us placed in this position are to desire to follow the apostle himself [Peter] from whom the episcopate itself and the total authority of this name have emerged. Following him, we know how to condemn evils just as well as we know how to approve what is laudable. Or rather, guarding with your priestly office what the Fathers instituted, you did not regard what they had decided, not by human but by divine judgments, as something to be trampled on. They did not regard anything as finished, even though it was the concern of distant and remote provinces, until it had come to the notice of this See [Rome], so that what was a just pronouncement might be confirmed by the authority of this See, and thence other churches—just as all waters proceed from their own natal source and, through the various regions of the whole world, remain pure liquids of an incorrupted head. . . ." (ibid., 29:1).

Pope Celestine I

"We enjoin upon you [my legates to the Council of Ephesus] the necessary task of guarding the authority of the Apostolic See. And if the instructions handed to you have to mention this and if you have to be present in the assembly, if it comes to controversy, it is not yours to join the fight but to judge of the opinions [on my behalf]" (Letters 17 [A.D. 431]).

Council of Ephesus

"Philip, presbyter and legate of [Pope Celestine I] said: ‘We offer our thanks to the holy and venerable synod, that when the writings of our holy and blessed pope had been read to you, the holy members, by our holy voices, you joined yourselves to the holy head also by your holy acclamations. For your blessedness is not ignorant that the head of the whole faith, the head of the apostles, is blessed Peter the apostle. And since now [we], after having been tempest-tossed and much vexed, [have] arrived, we ask that you order that there be laid before us what things were done in this holy synod before our arrival; in order that according to the opinion of our blessed pope and of this present holy assembly, we likewise may ratify their determination’" (Acts of the Council, session 2 [A.D. 431]).

Pope Leo I

"Our Lord Jesus Christ . . . established the worship belonging to the divine religion. . . . But the Lord desired that the sacrament of this gift should pertain to all the apostles in such a way that it might be found principally in the most blessed Peter, the highest of all the apostles. And he wanted his gifts to flow into the entire body from Peter himself, as if from the head, in such a way that anyone who had dared to separate himself from the solidarity of Peter would realize that he was himself no longer a sharer in the divine mystery. . . . [You, my brothers], must realize with us, of course, that the Apostolic See—out of reverence for it, I mean—has on countless occasions been reported to in consultation by bishops even of your own province [Vienne]. And through the appeal of various cases to this see, decisions already made have been either revoked or confirmed, as dictated by long-standing custom" (Letters 10:2–3 [A.D. 445]).

"As for the resolution of the bishops which is contrary to the Nicene decree, in union with your faithful piety, I declare it to be invalid and annul it by the authority of the holy apostle Peter" (ibid., 110).

"If in your view, [Anastasius of Thessalonica], in regard to a matter to be handled and decided jointly with your brothers, their decision was other than what you wanted, then let the entire matter, with a record of the proceedings, be referred to us. . . . Although bishops have a common dignity, they are not all of the same rank. Even among the most blessed apostles, though they were alike in honor, there was a certain distinction of power. All were equal in being chosen [to be apostles], but it was given to one to be preeminent over the others. . . . [So today through the bishops] the care of the universal Church would converge in the one see of Peter, and nothing should ever be at odds with this head" (ibid., 14:11).

Peter Chrysologus

"We exhort you in every respect, honorable brother, to heed obediently what has been written by the most blessed pope of the city of Rome, for blessed Peter, who lives and presides in his own see, provides the truth of faith to those who seek it. For we, by reason of our pursuit of peace and faith, cannot try cases on the faith without the consent of the bishop of Rome" (Letters 25:2 [A.D. 449]).

Council of Chalcedon

"Bishop Paschasinus, guardian of the Apostolic See, stood in the midst [of the Council Fathers] and said, ‘We received directions at the hands of the most blessed and apostolic bishop of the Roman city [Pope Leo I], who is the head of all the churches, which directions say that Dioscorus is not to be allowed to sit in the [present] assembly, but that if he should attempt to take his seat, he is to be cast out. This instruction we must carry out" (Acts of the Council, session 1 [A.D. 451]).

"After the reading of the foregoing epistle [The Tome of Leo], the most reverend bishops cried out: ‘This is the faith of the fathers! This is the faith of the apostles! So we all believe! Thus the orthodox believe! Anathema to him who does not thus believe! Peter has spoken thus through Leo!’" (ibid., session 2).

Pope Gregory I

"Your most sweet holiness, [Bishop Eulogius of Alexandria], has spoken much in your letter to me about the chair of Saint Peter, prince of the apostles, saying that he himself now sits on it in the persons of his successors. And indeed I acknowledge myself to be unworthy . . . I gladly accepted all that has been said, in that he has spoken to me about Peter’s chair, who occupies Peter’s chair. And, though special honor to myself in no wise delights me . . . who can be ignorant that holy Church has been made firm in the solidity of the prince of the apostles, who derived his name from the firmness of his mind, so as to be called Peter from petra. And to him it is said by the voice of the Truth, ‘To you I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven’ [Matt. 16:19]. And again it is said to him, ‘And when you are converted, strengthen your brethren’ [Luke 22:32]. And once more, ‘Simon, son of John, do you love me? Feed my sheep’ [John 21:17]" (Letters 40 [A.D. 597]).

**GZA** · 02-13-2009, 09:06 PM

Amcon's History Lesson
Part 7: the following illustrates that the Ancient Christians clearly understood that Jesus had given Peter supreme authority over the whole Church

Tatian the Syrian

"Simon Cephas answered and said, ‘You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.’ Jesus answered and said unto him, ‘Blessed are you, Simon, son of Jonah: flesh and blood has not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say unto thee also, that you are Cephas, and on this rock will I build my Church; and the gates of hades shall not prevail against it" (The Diatesseron 23 [A.D. 170]).

Tertullian

"Was anything withheld from the knowledge of Peter, who is called ‘the rock on which the Church would be built’ [Matt. 16:18] with the power of ‘loosing and binding in heaven and on earth’ [Matt. 16:19]?" (Demurrer Against the Heretics 22 [A.D. 200]).

"[T]he Lord said to Peter, ‘On this rock I will build my Church, I have given you the keys of the kingdom of heaven [and] whatever you shall have bound or loosed on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven’ [Matt. 16:18–19]. . . . What kind of man are you, subverting and changing what was the manifest intent of the Lord when he conferred this personally upon Peter? Upon you, he says, I will build my Church; and I will give to you the keys" (Modesty 21:9–10 [A.D. 220]).

The Letter of Clement to James

"Be it known to you, my lord, that Simon [Peter], who, for the sake of the true faith, and the most sure foundation of his doctrine, was set apart to be the foundation of the Church, and for this end was by Jesus himself, with his truthful mouth, named Peter" (Letter of Clement to James 2 [A.D. 221]).

The Clementine Homilies

"[Simon Peter said to Simon Magus in Rome:] ‘For you now stand in direct opposition to me, who am a firm rock, the foundation of the Church’ [Matt. 16:18]" (Clementine Homilies 17:19 [A.D. 221]).

Origen

"Look at [Peter], the great foundation of the Church, that most solid of rocks, upon whom Christ built the Church [Matt. 16:18]. And what does our Lord say to him? ‘Oh you of little faith,’ he says, ‘why do you doubt?’ [Matt. 14:31]" (Homilies on Exodus 5:4 [A.D. 248]).

Cyprian of Carthage

"The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ he says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. And to you I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven . . . ’ [Matt. 16:18–19]. On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was [i.e., apostles], but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. . . . If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?" (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4; 1st edition [A.D. 251]).

"There is one God and one Christ, and one Church, and one chair founded on Peter by the word of the Lord. It is not possible to set up another altar or for there to be another priesthood besides that one altar and that one priesthood. Whoever has gathered elsewhere is scattering" (Letters 43[40]:5 [A.D. 253]).

"There [John 6:68–69] speaks Peter, upon whom the Church would be built, teaching in the name of the Church and showing that even if a stubborn and proud multitude withdraws because it does not wish to obey, yet the Church does not withdraw from Christ. The people joined to the priest and the flock clinging to their shepherd are the Church. You ought to know, then, that the bishop is in the Church and the Church in the bishop, and if someone is not with the bishop, he is not in the Church. They vainly flatter themselves who creep up, not having peace with the priests of God, believing that they are
secretly [i.e., invisibly] in communion with certain individuals. For the Church, which is one and Catholic, is not split nor divided, but it is indeed united and joined by the cement of priests who adhere one to another" (ibid., 66[69]:8).

Firmilian

"But what is his error . . . who does not remain on the foundation of the one Church which was founded upon the rock by Christ [Matt. 16:18], can be learned from this, which Christ said to Peter alone: ‘Whatever things you shall bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth, they shall be loosed in heaven’ [Matt. 16:19]" (collected in Cyprian’s Letters 74[75]:16 [A.D. 253]).

"[Pope] Stephen [I] . . . boasts of the place of his episcopate, and contends that he holds the succession from Peter, on whom the foundations of the Church were laid [Matt. 16:18]. . . . [Pope] Stephen . . . announces that he holds by succession the throne of Peter" (ibid., 74[75]:17).

Ephraim the Syrian

"[Jesus said:] ‘Simon, my follower, I have made you the foundation of the holy Church. I betimes called you Peter, because you will support all its buildings. You are the inspector of those who will build on earth a Church for me. If they should wish to build what is false, you, the foundation, will condemn them. You are the head of the fountain from which my teaching flows; you are the chief of my disciples’" (Homilies 4:1 [A.D. 351]).

Optatus

"You cannot deny that you are aware that in the city of Rome the episcopal chair was given first to Peter; the chair in which Peter sat, the same who was head—that is why he is also called Cephas [‘Rock’]—of all the apostles; the one chair in which unity is maintained by all" (The Schism of the Donatists 2:2 [A.D. 367]).

Ambrose of Milan

"[Christ] made answer: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church. . . . ’ Could he not, then, strengthen the faith of the man to whom, acting on his own authority, he gave the kingdom, whom he called the rock, thereby declaring him to be the foundation of the Church [Matt. 16:18]?" (The Faith 4:5 [A.D. 379]).

"It is to Peter that he says: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church’ [Matt. 16:18]. Where Peter is, there is the Church. And where the Church is, no death is there, but life eternal" (Commentary on Twelve Psalms of David 40:30 [A.D. 389]).

Pope Damasus I

"Likewise it is decreed . . . that it ought to be announced that . . . the holy Roman Church has not been placed at the forefront [of the churches] by the conciliar decisions of other churches, but has received the primacy by the evangelic voice of our Lord and Savior, who says: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it; and I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. . . . ’ [Matt. 16:18–19]. The first see, therefore, is that of Peter the apostle, that of the Roman Church, which has neither stain nor blemish nor anything like it" (Decree of Damasus 3 [A.D. 382]).

Jerome

"‘But,’ you [Jovinian] will say, ‘it was on Peter that the Church was founded’ [Matt. 16:18]. Well . . . one among the twelve is chosen to be their head in order to remove any occasion for division" (Against Jovinian 1:26 [A.D. 393]).

"I follow no leader but Christ and join in communion with none but your blessedness [Pope Damasus I], that is, with the chair of Peter. I know that this is the rock on which the Church has been built. Whoever eats the Lamb outside this house is profane. Anyone who is not in the ark of Noah will perish when the flood prevails" (Letters 15:2 [A.D. 396]).

Augustine

"If the very order of episcopal succession is to be considered, how much more surely, truly, and safely do we number them [the bishops of Rome] from Peter himself, to whom, as to one representing the whole Church, the Lord said, ‘Upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not conquer it.’ Peter was succeeded by Linus, Linus by Clement. ... In this order of succession a Donatist bishop is not to be found" (Letters 53:1:2 [A.D. 412]).

Council of Ephesus

"Philip, the presbyter and legate of the Apostolic See [Rome], said: ‘There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the apostles, pillar of the faith, and foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Savior and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: who down even to today and forever both lives and judges in his successors’" (Acts of the Council, session 3 [A.D. 431]).

Sechnall of Ireland

"Steadfast in the fear of God, and in faith immovable, upon [Patrick] as upon Peter the [Irish] church is built; and he has been allotted his apostleship by God; against him the gates of hell prevail not" (Hymn in Praise of St. Patrick 3 [A.D. 444]).

Pope Leo I

"Our Lord Jesus Christ . . . has placed the principal charge on the blessed Peter, chief of all the apostles. . . . He wished him who had been received into partnership in his undivided unity to be named what he himself was, when he said: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church’ [Matt. 16:18], that the building of the eternal temple might rest on Peter’s solid rock, strengthening his Church so surely that neither could human rashness assail it nor the gates of hell prevail against it" (Letters 10:1 [A.D. 445]).

Council of Chalcedon

"Wherefore the most holy and blessed Leo, archbishop of the great and elder Rome, through us, and through this present most holy synod, together with the thrice blessed and all-glorious Peter the apostle, who is the rock and foundation of the Catholic Church, and the foundation of the orthodox faith, has stripped him [Dioscorus] of the episcopate" (Acts of the Council, session 3 [A.D. 451]).

**GZA** · 02-13-2009, 09:08 PM

Amcon's History Lesson
Part 8: the following shows that the Ancient Christians understood that Peter was the Leader of all the other apostles

Clement of Alexandria

"[T]he blessed Peter, the chosen, the preeminent, the first among the disciples, for whom alone with himself the Savior paid the tribute [Matt. 17:27], quickly grasped and understood their meaning. And what does he say? ‘Behold, we have left all and have followed you’ [Matt. 19:27; Mark 10:28]" (Who Is the Rich Man That Is Saved? 21:3–5 [A.D. 200]).

Tertullian

"For though you think that heaven is still shut up, remember that the Lord left the keys of it to Peter here, and through him to the Church, which keys everyone will carry with him if he has been questioned and made a confession [of faith]" (Antidote Against the Scorpion 10 [A.D. 211]).

"[T]he Lord said to Peter, ‘On this rock I will build my Church, I have given you the keys of the kingdom of heaven [and] whatever you shall have bound or loosed on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven’ [Matt. 16:18–19]. . . . Upon you, he says, I will build my Church; and I will give to you the keys, not to the Church" (Modesty 21:9–10 [A.D. 220]).

The Letter of Clement to James

"Be it known to you, my lord, that Simon [Peter], who, for the sake of the true faith, and the most sure foundation of his doctrine, was set apart to be the foundation of the Church, and for this end was by Jesus himself, with his truthful mouth, named Peter, the first fruits of our Lord, the first of the apostles; to whom first the Father revealed the Son; whom the Christ, with good reason, blessed; the called, and elect" (Letter of Clement to James 2 [A.D. 221]).

Origen

"[I]f we were to attend carefully to the Gospels, we should also find, in relation to those things which seem to be common to Peter . . . a great difference and a preeminence in the things [Jesus] said to Peter, compared with the second class [of apostles]. For it is no small difference that Peter received the keys not of one heaven but of more, and in order that whatsoever things he binds on earth may be bound not in one heaven but in them all, as compared with the many who bind on earth and loose on earth, so that these things are bound and loosed not in [all] the heavens, as in the case of Peter, but in one only; for they do not reach so high a stage with power as Peter to bind and loose in all the heavens" (Commentary on Matthew 13:31 [A.D. 248]).

Cyprian of Carthage

"The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ he says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church.’ . . . On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was [i.e., apostles], but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all [the apostles] are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?" (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4; 1st edition [A.D. 251]).

Cyril of Jerusalem

"The Lord is loving toward men, swift to pardon but slow to punish. Let no man despair of his own salvation. Peter, the first and foremost of the apostles, denied the Lord three times before a little servant girl, but he repented and wept bitterly" (Catechetical Lectures 2:19 [A.D. 350]).

"[Simon Magus] so deceived the city of Rome that Claudius erected a statue of him. . . . While the error was extending itself, Peter and Paul arrived, a noble pair and the rulers of the Church, and they set the error aright. . . . [T]hey launched the weapon of their like-mindedness in prayer against the Magus, and struck him down to earth. It was marvelous enough, and yet no marvel at all, for Peter was there—he that carries about the keys of heaven [Matt. 16:19]" (ibid., 6:14).

"In the power of the same Holy Spirit, Peter, both the chief of the apostles and the keeper of the keys of the kingdom of heaven, in the name of Christ healed Aeneas the paralytic at Lydda, which is now called Diospolis [Acts 9:32–34]" (ibid., 17:27).

Ephraim the Syrian

"[Jesus said:] Simon, my follower, I have made you the foundation of the holy Church. I betimes called you Peter, because you will support all its buildings. You are the inspector of those who will build on Earth a Church for me. If they should wish to build what is false, you, the foundation, will condemn them. You are the head of the fountain from which my teaching flows; you are the chief of my disciples. Through you I will give drink to all peoples. Yours is that life-giving sweetness which I dispense. I have chosen you to be, as it were, the firstborn in my institution so that, as the heir, you may be executor of my treasures. I have given you the keys of my kingdom. Behold, I have given you authority over all my treasures" (Homilies 4:1 [A.D. 351]).

Ambrose of Milan

"[Christ] made answer: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church. . . .’ Could he not, then, strengthen the faith of the man to whom, acting on his own authority, he gave the kingdom, whom he called the rock, thereby declaring him to be the foundation of the Church [Matt. 16:18]?" (The Faith 4:5 [A.D. 379]).

Pope Damasus I

"Likewise it is decreed . . . that it ought to be announced that . . . the holy Roman Church has been placed at the forefront not by the conciliar decisions of other churches, but has received the primacy by the evangelic voice of our Lord and Savior, who says: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it; and I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven . . . ’ [Matt. 16:18–19]. The first see, therefore, is that of Peter the apostle, that of the Roman Church, which has neither stain nor blemish nor anything like it" (Decree of Damasus 3 [A.D. 382]).

Jerome

"‘But,’ you [Jovinian] will say, ‘it was on Peter that the Church was founded’ [Matt. 16:18]. Well . . . one among the twelve is chosen to be their head in order to remove any occasion for division" (Against Jovinian 1:26 [A.D. 393]).

"Simon Peter, the son of John, from the village of Bethsaida in the province of Galilee, brother of Andrew the apostle, and himself chief of the apostles, after having been bishop of the church of Antioch and having preached to the Dispersion . . . pushed on to Rome in the second year of Claudius to overthrow Simon Magus, and held the sacerdotal chair there for twenty-five years until the last, that is the fourteenth, year of Nero. At his hands he received the crown of martyrdom being nailed to the cross with his head towards the ground and his feet raised on high, asserting that he was unworthy to be crucified in the same manner as his Lord" (Lives of Illustrious Men 1 [A.D. 396]).

Pope Innocent I

"In seeking the things of God . . . you have acknowledged that judgment is to be referred to us [the pope], and have shown that you know that is owed to the Apostolic See [Rome], if all of us placed in this position are to desire to follow the apostle himself [Peter] from whom the episcopate itself and the total authority of this name have emerged" (Letters 29:1 [A.D. 408]).

Augustine

"Among these [apostles] Peter alone almost everywhere deserved to represent the whole Church. Because of that representation of the Church, which only he bore, he deserved to hear ‘I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven’" (Sermons 295:2 [A.D. 411]).

"Some things are said which seem to relate especially to the apostle Peter, and yet are not clear in their meaning unless referred to the Church, which he is acknowledged to have represented in a figure on account of the primacy which he bore among the disciples. Such is ‘I will give unto you the keys of the kingdom of heaven,’ and other similar passages. In the same way, Judas represents those Jews who were Christ’s enemies" (Commentary on Psalm 108 1 [A.D. 415]).

"Who is ignorant that the first of the apostles is the most blessed Peter?" (Commentary on John 56:1 [A.D. 416]).

Council of Ephesus

"Philip, presbyter and legate of [Pope Celestine I] said: ‘We offer our thanks to the holy and venerable synod, that when the writings of our holy and blessed pope had been read to you . . . you joined yourselves to the holy head also by your holy acclamations. For your blessednesses is not ignorant that the head of the whole faith, the head of the apostles, is blessed Peter the apostle’" (Acts of the Council, session 2 [A.D. 431]).

"Philip, the presbyter and legate of the Apostolic See [Rome] said: ‘There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the apostles, pillar of the faith, and foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Savior and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: who down even to today and forever both lives and judges in his successors’" (ibid., session 3).

Pope Leo I

"Our Lord Jesus Christ . . . has placed the principal charge on the blessed Peter, chief of all the apostles, and from him as from the head wishes his gifts to flow to all the body, so that anyone who dares to secede from Peter’s solid rock may understand that he has no part or lot in the divine mystery. He wished him who had been received into partnership in his undivided unity to be named what he himself was, when he said: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church’ [Matt. 16:18], that the building of the eternal temple might rest on Peter’s solid rock, strengthening his Church so surely that neither could human rashness assail it nor the gates of hell prevail against it" (Letters 10:1 [A.D. 445).

"Our Lord Jesus Christ . . . established the worship belonging to the divine [Christian] religion. . . . But the Lord desired that the sacrament of this gift should pertain to all the apostles in such a way that it might be found principally in the most blessed Peter, the highest of all the apostles. And he wanted his gifts to flow into the entire body from Peter himself, as if from the head, in such a way that anyone who had dared to separate himself from the solidarity of Peter would realize that he was himself no longer a sharer in the divine mystery" (ibid., 10:2–3).

"Although bishops have a common dignity, they are not all of the same rank. Even among the most blessed apostles, though they were alike in honor, there was a certain distinction of power. All were equal in being chosen, but it was given to one to be preeminent over the others. . . . [So today through the bishops] the care of the universal Church would converge in the one See of Peter, and nothing should ever be at odds with this head" (ibid., 14:11).

**GZA** · 02-13-2009, 09:09 PM

Amcon's History Lesson
Part 9: the following illustrates that Peter lived in Rome (and didn't stay in Jerusalem or what have you like many Protestants believe)

Ignatius of Antioch

"Not as Peter and Paul did, do I command you [Romans]. They were apostles, and I am a convict" (Letter to the Romans 4:3 [A.D. 110]).

Dionysius of Corinth

"You [Pope Soter] have also, by your very admonition, brought together the planting that was made by Peter and Paul at Rome and at Corinth; for both of them alike planted in our Corinth and taught us; and both alike, teaching similarly in Italy, suffered martyrdom at the same time" (Letter to Pope Soter [A.D. 170], in Eusebius, History of the Church 2:25:8).

Irenaeus

"Matthew also issued among the Hebrews a written Gospel in their own language, while Peter and Paul were evangelizing in Rome and laying the foundation of the Church" (Against Heresies, 3, 1:1 [A.D. 189]).

"But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the succession of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church [of Rome], because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition" (ibid., 3, 3, 2).

"The blessed apostles [Peter and Paul], having founded and built up the church [of Rome], they handed over the office of the episcopate to Linus. Paul makes mention of this Linus in the letter to Timothy [2 Tim. 4:21]. To him succeeded Anacletus, and after him, in the third place from the apostles, Clement was chosen for the episcopate. He had seen the blessed apostles and was acquainted with them. It might be said that he still heard the echoes of the preaching of the apostles and had their traditions before his eyes. And not only he, for there were many still remaining who had been instructed by the apostles. In the time of Clement, no small dissension having arisen among the brethren in Corinth, the church in Rome sent a very strong letter to the Corinthians, exhorting them to peace and renewing their faith. ... To this Clement, Evaristus succeeded . . . and now, in the twelfth place after the apostles, the lot of the episcopate [of Rome] has fallen to Eleutherius. In this order, and by the teaching of the apostles handed down in the Church, the preaching of the truth has come down to us" (ibid., 3, 3, 3).

Gaius

"It is recorded that Paul was beheaded in Rome itself, and Peter, likewise, was crucified, during the reign [of the Emperor Nero]. The account is confirmed by the names of Peter and Paul over the cemeteries there, which remain to the present time. And it is confirmed also by a stalwart man of the Church, Gaius by name, who lived in the time of Zephyrinus, bishop of Rome. This Gaius, in a written disputation with Proclus, the leader of the sect of Cataphrygians, says this of the places in which the remains of the aforementioned apostles were deposited: ‘I can point out the trophies of the apostles. For if you are willing to go to the Vatican or to the Ostian Way, you will find the trophies of those who founded this Church’" (Disputation with Proclus [A.D. 198] in Eusebius, Church History 2:25:5).

Clement of Alexandria

"The circumstances which occasioned . . . [the writing] of Mark were these: When Peter preached the Word publicly at Rome and declared the gospel by the Spirit, many who were present requested that Mark, who had been a long time his follower and who remembered his sayings, should write down what had been proclaimed" (Sketches [A.D. 200], in a fragment from Eusebius, History of the Church, 6, 14:1).

Tertullian

"But if you are near Italy, you have Rome, where authority is at hand for us too. What a happy church that is, on which the apostles poured out their whole doctrine with their blood; where Peter had a passion like that of the Lord, where Paul was crowned with the death of John [the Baptist, by being beheaded]" (Demurrer Against the Heretics 36 [A.D. 200]).

"[T]his is the way in which the apostolic churches transmit their lists: like the church of the Smyrneans, which records that Polycarp was placed there by John, like the church of the Romans, where Clement was ordained by Peter" (ibid., 32:2).

"Let us see what milk the Corinthians drained from Paul; against what standard the Galatians were measured for correction; what the Philippians, Thessalonians, and Ephesians read; what even the nearby Romans sound forth, to whom both Peter and Paul bequeathed the gospel and even sealed it with their blood" (Against Marcion 4, 5:1 [A.D. 210]).

The Little Labyrinth

"Victor . . . was the thirteenth bishop of Rome from Peter" (The Little Labyrinth [A.D. 211], in Eusebius, Church History 5:28:3).

The Poem Against the Marcionites

"In this chair in which he himself had sat, Peter in mighty Rome commanded Linus, the first elected, to sit down. After him, Cletus too accepted the flock of the fold. As his successor, Anacletus was elected by lot. Clement follows him, well-known to apostolic men. After him Evaristus ruled the flock without crime. Alexander, sixth in succession, commends the fold to Sixtus. After his illustrious times were completed, he passed it on to Telesphorus. He was excellent, a faithful martyr . . . " (Poem Against the Marcionites 276–284 [A.D. 267]).

Eusebius of Caesarea

"[In the second] year of the two hundredth and fifth Olympiad [A.D. 42]: The apostle Peter, after he has established the church in Antioch, is sent to Rome, where he remains as a bishop of that city, preaching the gospel for twenty-five years" (The Chronicle [A.D. 303]).

Peter of Alexandria

"Peter, the first chosen of the apostles, having been apprehended often and thrown into prison and treated with ignominy, at last was crucified in Rome" (Penance, canon 9 [A.D. 306]).

Lactantius

"When Nero was already reigning, Peter came to Rome, where, in virtue of the performance of certain miracles which he worked . . . he converted many to righteousness and established a firm and steadfast temple to God. When this fact was reported to Nero . . . he sprang to the task of tearing down the heavenly temple and of destroying righteousness. It was he that first persecuted the servants of God. Peter he fixed to a cross, and Paul he slew" (The Deaths of the Persecutors 2:5 [A.D. 318]).

Cyril of Jerusalem

"[Simon Magus] so deceived the city of Rome that Claudius erected a statue of him. . . .While the error was extending itself, Peter and Paul arrived, a noble pair and the rulers of the Church, and they set the error aright. . . . [T]hey launched the weapon of their like-mindedness in prayer against the Magus, and struck him down to earth. It was marvelous enough, and yet no marvel at all, for Peter was there—he that carries about the keys of heaven. And it was nothing to marvel at, for Paul was there—he that was caught up into the third heaven" (Catechetical Lectures 6:14 [A.D. 350]).

Optatus

"You cannot deny that you are aware that in the city of Rome the episcopal chair was given first to Peter; the chair in which Peter sat, the same who was head—that is why he is also called Cephas [‘Rock’]—of all the apostles; the one chair in which unity is maintained by all" (The Schism of the Donatists 2:2 [A.D. 367]).

Epiphanius of Salamis

"At Rome the first apostles and bishops were Peter and Paul, then Linus, then Cletus, then Clement, the contemporary of Peter and Paul" (Medicine Chest Against All Heresies 27:6 [A.D. 375]).

Pope Damasus I

"Likewise it is decreed: . . . [W]e have considered that it ought to be announced that although all the Catholic churches spread abroad through the world comprise one bridal chamber of Christ, nevertheless, the holy Roman Church has been placed at the forefront not by the conciliar decisions of other churches, but has received the primacy by the evangelic voice of our Lord and Savior, who says: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it; and I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you shall have bound on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you shall have loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven’ [Matt. 16:18–19]. The first see, therefore, is that of Peter the apostle, that of the Roman Church, which has neither stain nor blemish nor anything like it.

"In addition to this, there is also the companionship of the vessel of election, the most blessed apostle Paul, who contended and was crowned with a glorious death along with Peter in the city of Rome in the time of Caesar Nero. . . . They equally consecrated the above-mentioned holy Roman Church to Christ the Lord; and by their own presence and by their venerable triumph they set it at the forefront over the others of all the cities of the whole world.

"The first see, therefore, is that of Peter the apostle, that of the Roman Church, which has neither stain nor blemish nor anything like it. The second see, however, is that at Alexandria, consecrated in behalf of blessed Peter by Mark, his disciple and an evangelist, who was sent to Egypt by the apostle Peter, where he preached the word of truth and finished his glorious martyrdom. The third honorable see, indeed, is that at Antioch, which belonged to the most blessed apostle Peter, where first he dwelt before he came to Rome and where the name Christians was first applied, as to a new people" (Decree of Damasus 3 [A.D. 382]).

Jerome

"Simon Peter, the son of John, from the village of Bethsaida in the province of Galilee, brother of Andrew the apostle, and himself chief of the apostles, after having been bishop of the church of Antioch and having preached to the Dispersion . . . pushed on to Rome in the second year of Claudius to overthrow Simon Magus, and held the sacerdotal chair there for twenty-five years until the last, that is the fourteenth, year of Nero. At his hands he received the crown of martyrdom being nailed to the cross with his head towards the ground and his feet raised on high, asserting that he was unworthy to be crucified in the same manner as his Lord" (Lives of Illustrious Men 1 [A.D. 396]).

Augustine

"If all men throughout the world were such as you most vainly accuse them of having been, what has the chair of the Roman church done to you, in which Peter sat, and in which Anastasius sits today?" (Against the Letters of Petilani 2:118 [A.D. 402]).

**GZA** · 02-13-2009, 09:12 PM

Amcon's History Lesson
Part 10: The following illustrates that the Ancient Christians understood that the power and authority given to Peter was to be handed down to other men (i.e. the Pope)

Irenaeus

"The blessed apostles [Peter and Paul], having founded and built up the church [of Rome] . . . handed over the office of the episcopate to Linus" (Against Heresies 3:3:3 [A.D. 189]).

Tertullian

"[T]his is the way in which the apostolic churches transmit their lists: like the church of the Smyrneans, which records that Polycarp was placed there by John, like the church of the Romans, where Clement was ordained by Peter" (Demurrer Against the Heretics 32:2 [A.D. 200]).

The Little Labyrinth

"Victor . . . was the thirteenth bishop of Rome from Peter" (The Little Labyrinth [A.D. 211], in Eusebius, Church History 5:28:3).

Cyprian of Carthage

"The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ he says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. ... ’ [Matt. 16:18]. On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. . . . If someone [today] does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?" (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4; first edition [A.D. 251]).

"Cornelius was made bishop by the decision of God and of his Christ, by the testimony of almost all the clergy, by the applause of the people then present, by the college of venerable priests and good men, at a time when no one had been made [bishop] before him—when the place of [Pope] Fabian, which is the place of Peter, the dignity of the sacerdotal chair, was vacant. Since it has been occupied both at the will of God and with the ratified consent of all of us, whoever now wishes to become bishop must do so outside. For he cannot have ecclesiastical rank who does not hold to the unity of the Church" (Letters 55:[52]):8 [A.D. 253]).

"With a false bishop appointed for themselves by heretics, they dare even to set sail and carry letters from schismatics and blasphemers to the chair of Peter and to the principal church [at Rome], in which sacerdotal unity has its source" (ibid., 59:14).

Eusebius of Caesarea

"Paul testifies that Crescens was sent to Gaul [2 Tim. 4:10], but Linus, whom he mentions in the Second Epistle to Timothy [2 Tim. 4:21] as his companion at Rome, was Peter’s successor in the episcopate of the church there, as has already been shown. Clement also, who was appointed third bishop of the church at Rome, was, as Paul testifies, his co-laborer and fellow-soldier [Phil. 4:3]" (Church History 3:4:9–10 [A.D. 312]).

Pope Julius I

"[The] judgment [against Athanasius] ought to have been made, not as it was, but according to the ecclesiastical canon. . . . Are you ignorant that the custom has been to write first to us and then for a just decision to be passed from this place [Rome]? If, then, any such suspicion rested upon the bishop there [Athanasius of Alexandria], notice of it ought to have been written to the church here. But now, after having done as they pleased, they want to obtain our concurrence, although we never condemned him. Not thus are the constitutions of Paul, not thus the traditions of the Fathers. This is another form of procedure, and a novel practice. . . . What I write about this is for the common good. For what we have heard from the blessed apostle Peter, these things I signify to you" (Letter on Behalf of Athanasius [A.D. 341], contained in Athanasius, Apology Against the Arians 20–35).

Council of Sardica

"[I]f any bishop loses the judgment in some case [decided by his fellow bishops] and still believes that he has not a bad but a good case, in order that the case may be judged anew . . . let us honor the memory of the apostle Peter by having those who have given the judgment write to Julius, bishop of Rome, so that if it seem proper he may himself send arbiters and the judgment may be made again by the bishops of a neighboring province" (Canon 3 [A.D. 342]).

Optatus

"You cannot deny that you are aware that in the city of Rome the episcopal chair was given first to Peter; the chair in which Peter sat, the same who was head—that is why he is also called Cephas [‘Rock’]—of all the apostles; the one chair in which unity is maintained by all" (The Schism of the Donatists 2:2 [A.D. 367]).

Epiphanius of Salamis

"At Rome the first apostles and bishops were Peter and Paul, then Linus, then Cletus, then Clement, the contemporary of Peter and Paul" (Medicine Chest Against All Heresies 27:6 [A.D. 375]).

Pope Damasus I

"Likewise it is decreed: . . . [W]e have considered that it ought to be announced that . . . the holy Roman Church has been placed at the forefront not by the conciliar decisions of other churches, but has received the primacy by the evangelic voice of our Lord and Savior, who says: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it; and I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you shall have bound on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you shall have loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven’ [Matt. 16:18–19]. The first see [today], therefore, is that of Peter the apostle, that of the Roman Church, which has neither stain nor blemish nor anything like it" (Decree of Damasus 3 [A.D. 382]).

Jerome

"[Pope] Stephen . . . was the blessed Peter’s twenty-second successor in the See of Rome" (Against the Luciferians 23 [A.D. 383]).

"Clement, of whom the apostle Paul writing to the Philippians says ‘With Clement and others of my fellow-workers whose names are written in the book of life,’ the fourth bishop of Rome after Peter, if indeed the second was Linus and the third Anacletus, although most of the Latins think that Clement was second after the apostle" (Lives of Illustrious Men 15 [A.D. 396]).

"Since the East, shattered as it is by the long-standing feuds, subsisting between its peoples, is bit by bit tearing into shreds the seamless vest of the Lord . . . I think it my duty to consult the chair of Peter, and to turn to a church [Rome] whose faith has been praised by Paul [Rom. 1:8]. I appeal for spiritual food to the church whence I have received the garb of Christ. . . . Evil children have squandered their patrimony; you alone keep your heritage intact" (Letters 15:1 [A.D. 396]).

...

"I follow no leader but Christ and join in communion with none but your blessedness [Pope Damasus I], that is, with the chair of Peter. I know that this is the rock on which the Church has been built. Whoever eats the Lamb outside this house is profane. Anyone who is not in the ark of Noah will perish when the flood prevails" (ibid., 15:2).

"The church here is split into three parts, each eager to seize me for its own. . . . Meanwhile I keep crying, ‘He that is joined to the chair of Peter is accepted by me!’ . . . Therefore, I implore your blessedness [Pope Damasus I] . . . tell me by letter with whom it is that I should communicate in Syria" (ibid., 16:2).

Ambrose of Milan

"[T]hey [the Novatian heretics] have not the succession of Peter, who hold not the chair of Peter, which they rend by wicked schism; and this, too, they do, wickedly denying that sins can be forgiven [by the sacrament of confession] even in the Church, whereas it was said to Peter: ‘I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven, and whatsoever thou shall loose on earth shall be loosed also in heaven’[Matt. 16:19]" (Penance 1:7:33 [A.D. 388]).

Augustine

"If all men throughout the world were such as you most vainly accuse them of having been, what has the chair of the Roman church done to you, in which Peter sat, and in which Anastasius sits today?" (Against the Letters of Petilani 2:118 [A.D. 402]).

"If the very order of episcopal succession is to be considered, how much more surely, truly, and safely do we number them from Peter himself, to whom, as to one representing the whole Church, the Lord said, ‘Upon this rock I will build my Church’ . . . [Matt. 16:18]. Peter was succeeded by Linus, Linus by Clement, Clement by Anacletus, Anacletus by Evaristus . . . " (Letters 53:1:2 [A.D. 412]).

Council of Ephesus

"Philip the presbyter and legate of the Apostolic See said: ‘There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the apostles, pillar of the faith, and foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Savior and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: who down even to today and forever both lives and judges in his successors. The holy and most blessed pope Celestine, according to due order, is his successor and holds his place, and us he sent to supply his place in this holy synod’" (Acts of the Council, session 3 [A.D. 431]).

Pope Leo I

"As for the resolution of the bishops which is contrary to the Nicene decree, in union with your faithful piety, I declare it to be invalid and annul it by the authority of the holy apostle Peter" (Letters 110 [A.D. 445]).

"Whereupon the blessed Peter, as inspired by God, and about to benefit all nations by his confession, said, ‘You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.’ Not undeservedly, therefore, was he pronounced blessed by the Lord, and derived from the original Rock that solidity which belonged both to his virtue and to his name [Peter]" (The Tome of Leo [A.D. 449]).

Peter Chrysologus

"We exhort you in every respect, honorable brother, to heed obediently what has been written by the most blessed pope of the city of Rome, for blessed Peter, who lives and presides in his own see, provides the truth of faith to those who seek it. For we, by reason of our pursuit of peace and faith, cannot try cases on the faith without the consent of the bishop of Rome" (Letters 25:2 [A.D. 449]).

Council of Chalcedon

"After the reading of the foregoing epistle [The Tome of Leo], the most reverend bishops cried out: ‘This is the faith of the fathers! This is the faith of the apostles! So we all believe! Thus the orthodox believe! Anathema to him who does not thus believe! Peter has spoken thus through Leo! . . . This is the true faith! Those of us who are orthodox thus believe! This is the faith of the Fathers!’" (Acts of the Council, session 2 [A.D. 451]).

**GZA** · 02-13-2009, 09:15 PM

Amcon's History Lesson
Part 11: the following illustrates that the Catholic understanding that we pray along WITH the saints and angels (which is why we ask them to pray for us) is understood and believed by Ancient Christians also.

Hermas

"[The Shepherd said:] ‘But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?’" (The Shepherd 3:5:4 [A.D. 80]).

Clement of Alexandria

"In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]" (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]).

Origen

"But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep" (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]).

Cyprian of Carthage

"Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides [of death] always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father’s mercy" (Letters 56[60]:5 [A.D. 253]).

Anonymous

"Atticus, sleep in peace, secure in your safety, and pray anxiously for our sins" (funerary inscription near St. Sabina’s in Rome [A.D. 300]).

"Pray for your parents, Matronata Matrona. She lived one year, fifty-two days" (ibid.).

"Mother of God, [listen to] my petitions; do not disregard us in adversity, but rescue us from danger" (Rylands Papyrus 3 [A.D. 350]).

Methodius

"Hail to you for ever, Virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for to you do I turn again. You are the beginning of our feast; you are its middle and end; the pearl of great price that belongs to the kingdom; the fat of every victim, the living altar of the Bread of Life [Jesus]. Hail, you treasure of the love of God. Hail, you fount of the Son’s love for man. . . . You gleamed, sweet gift-bestowing Mother, with the light of the sun; you gleamed with the insupportable fires of a most fervent charity, bringing forth in the end that which was conceived of you . . . making manifest the mystery hidden and unspeakable, the invisible Son of the Father—the Prince of Peace, who in a marvelous manner showed himself as less than all littleness" (Oration on Simeon and Anna 14 [A.D. 305]).

"Therefore, we pray [ask] you, the most excellent among women, who glories in the confidence of your maternal honors, that you would unceasingly keep us in remembrance. O holy Mother of God, remember us, I say, who make our boast in you, and who in august hymns celebrate the memory, which will ever live, and never fade away" (ibid.).

"And you also, O honored and venerable Simeon, you earliest host of our holy religion, and teacher of the resurrection of the faithful, do be our patron and advocate with that Savior God, whom you were deemed worthy to receive into your arms. We, together with you, sing our praises to Christ, who has the power of life and death, saying, ‘You are the true Light, proceeding from the true Light; the true God, begotten of the true God’" (ibid.).

Cyril of Jerusalem

"Then [during the Eucharistic prayer] we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition . . . " (Catechetical Lectures 23:9 [A.D. 350]).

Hilary of Poitiers

"To those who wish to stand [in God’s grace], neither the guardianship of saints nor the defenses of angels are wanting" (Commentary on the Psalms 124:5:6 [A.D. 365]).

Ephraim the Syrian

"You victorious martyrs who endured torments gladly for the sake of the God and Savior, you who have boldness of speech toward the Lord himself, you saints, intercede for us who are timid and sinful men, full of sloth, that the grace of Christ may come upon us, and enlighten the hearts of all of us so that we may love him" (Commentary on Mark [A.D. 370]).

"Remember me, you heirs of God, you brethren of Christ; supplicate the Savior earnestly for me, that I may be freed through Christ from him that fights against me day by day" (The Fear at the End of Life [A.D. 370]).

The Liturgy of St. Basil

"By the command of your only-begotten Son we communicate with the memory of your saints . . . by whose prayers and supplications have mercy upon us all, and deliver us for the sake of your holy name" (Liturgy of St. Basil [A.D. 373]).

Pectorius

"Aschandius, my father, dearly beloved of my heart, with my sweet mother and my brethren, remember your Pectorius in the peace of the Fish [Christ]" (Epitaph of Pectorius [A.D. 375]).

Gregory of Nazianz

"May you [Cyprian] look down from above propitiously upon us, and guide our word and life; and shepherd this sacred flock . . . gladden the Holy Trinity, before which you stand" (Orations 17[24] [A.D. 380]).

"Yes, I am well assured that [my father’s] intercession is of more avail now than was his instruction in former days, since he is closer to God, now that he has shaken off his bodily fetters, and freed his mind from the clay that obscured it, and holds conversation naked with the nakedness of the prime and purest mind . . . " (ibid., 18:4).

Gregory of Nyssa

"[Ephraim], you who are standing at the divine altar [in heaven] . . . bear us all in remembrance, petitioning for us the remission of sins, and the fruition of an everlasting kingdom" (Sermon on Ephraim the Syrian [A.D. 380]).

John Chrysostom

"He that wears the purple [i.e., a royal man] . . . stands begging of the saints to be his patrons with God, and he that wears a diadem begs the tentmaker [Paul] and the fisherman [Peter] as patrons, even though they be dead" (Homilies on Second Corinthians 26 [A.D. 392]).

"When you perceive that God is chastening you, fly not to his enemies . . . but to his friends, the martyrs, the saints, and those who were pleasing to him, and who have great power [in God]" (Orations 8:6 [A.D. 396]).

Ambrose of Milan

"May Peter, who wept so efficaciously for himself, weep for us and turn towards us Christ’s benign countenance" (The Six Days Work 5:25:90 [A.D. 393]).

Jerome

"You say in your book that while we live we are able to pray for each other, but afterwards when we have died, the prayer of no person for another can be heard. . . . But if the apostles and martyrs while still in the body can pray for others, at a time when they ought still be solicitous about themselves, how much more will they do so after their crowns, victories, and triumphs?" (Against Vigilantius 6 [A.D. 406]).

Augustine

"A Christian people celebrates together in religious solemnity the memorials of the martyrs, both to encourage their being imitated and so that it can share in their merits and be aided by their prayers" (Against Faustus the Manichean [A.D. 400]).

"There is an ecclesiastical discipline, as the faithful know, when the names of the martyrs are read aloud in that place at the altar of God, where prayer is not offered for them. Prayer, however, is offered for the dead who are remembered. For it is wrong to pray for a martyr, to whose prayers we ought ourselves be commended" (Sermons 159:1 [A.D. 411]).

"At the Lord’s table we do not commemorate martyrs in the same way that we do others who rest in peace so as to pray for them, but rather that they may pray for us that we may follow in their footsteps" (Homilies on John 84 [A.D. 416]).

"Neither are the souls of the pious dead separated from the Church which even now is the kingdom of Christ. Otherwise there would be no remembrance of them at the altar of God in the communication of the Body of Christ" (The City of God 20:9:2 [A.D. 419]).

**GZA** · 02-13-2009, 09:34 PM

There is MUCH more where that came from :P I figure you have either two options... be rational and realize that you are completely out of touch with the reality of Ancient Christianity and open your mind to the interpretations and ideas of the most Ancient Christians who lived a lot closer to the living memory of the Apostles than either of us did... or you can cover your eyes and run and hide from the obvious and apparent truth... that you have been following a religion which is completely out of touch with the teachings and beliefs of the most ancient Christian Church known to man... it's no wonder Encyclopedias have NO PROBLEM asserting the things they assert about the Catholic Church as being the only one Jesus founded and that Peter was the first Pope... there's litterally PILES of historical data backing this up... you can either choose to remain in denial of the obvious FACTS in order to save your ego... but if you do, I'd be concerned about saving my soul if I were you... God has no room for your ego in heaven... Long ago I tried to fight the obvious and apparent FACTS of the veracity of the Catholic Church also... eventually comes a time when you must realize enough is enough, because you obviously don't see Mormons or Jehovas witnesses able to pile on endless amounts of historical data, you don't see ANY other Christian religion who even Encyclopedias plainly say was started by Jesus Christ himself... perhaps you owe God's Church a few moments of an open mind... study this stuff for yourself and see for yourself the amazing depth and immense amounts of data, that back up the teachings of God's Church. Jesus wouldn't have it any other way. I KNOW you've been suprized with the sheer number of biblical verses and historical data I am able to throw at you for each and every topic you question me on... that's not because I'm such a great researcher or anything of the like. I can't make up facts... It just so happens that all this data is at my disposal because this really is the Church Jesus Christ established.... how's this... find me the writings just one ancient Christian that believed that "all he has to do is read his bible, denominations mean nothing"...... I bet you can't, because your brand of Christianity was simply undeard of in ancient times.

**GZA** · 02-13-2009, 10:04 PM

Amcon's History Lesson
Part 12: the following is virtually the entire text of an ancient manuscript penned by the Ancient Christian St. Cyprian, I am including it because It is the last thing I read before deciding to become a Catholic (I remember at the time I first read it, I could barely get through it because my eyes were so full of tears when I was reading it) to me, at the time, it just made everythign so obvious and apparent as it relates to where I belong. To Give you some background on St. Cyrpian of Carthage... here is an excerpt from an ancient document known as the acta proconsularia which was written in 258 A.D which illustrates for us the story of his Martyrdom at the hands of the Romans for refusing to renounce his belief in Jesus Christ and refusing to make a sacrifice to the Roman Gods:

On the morning of September 14 a large crowd gathered at Sesti by order of proconsul Galerius Maximus. And the same proconsul Galerius Maximus ordered that Cyprian should be brought to the hearing which he conducted on that same day in the Sauciolus Hall. When Bishop Cyprian stood before him, the proconsul said to him, "Are you Tascius Ciprianus?"

Bishop Cyprian answered, "Yes, I am."

Proconsul Galerius Maximus said, "Are you the one who has presented himself as the leader of a sacrilegious sect?"

Bishop Cyprian answered, "I am."

Galerius Maximus said, "The most holy emperors bid you to sacrifice."

Bishop Cyprian said, "I will not do it."

Proconsul Galerius Maximus said, "Think it over."

Bishop Cyprian said, "Do what you have been ordered to do. In such a just cause there is nothing to think over."

Galerius Maximus, after conferring with the college of magistrates, with difficulty and unwillingly pronounced this sentence: "You have long lived sacrilegiously and have gathered many in your criminal sect, and set yourself up as an enemy of the Roman gods and of their religious rites. The pious and most holy Augusti emperors Valerian and Gallienus, and Valerian most noble Caesar, failed to bring you back to the observance of their religious ceremonies.

"Therefore, since you have been seen to be the instigator of the worst of crimes, we shall make an example of you before those whom you have associated with yourself in these wicked actions. The respect for the law will be sanctioned by your blood." Having said this he read out in a loud voice from a tablet the decree: "I order that Tascius Ciprianus be punished by being beheaded".

Bishop Cyprian said: 'Thanks be to God'.

Following the sentence, the crowd of Christian brethren said, "We want to be beheaded with him." At this there was great agitation among the brethren and a large crowd followed him. Thus Cyprian was led into the countryside of Sesti, and there he took off his cloak and hood, knelt on the ground and prostrated himself in prayer to the Lord. He then removed his dalmatic and gave it to the deacons, leaving himself only in his linen garment, and so waited for the executioner.

When the latter arrived, the bishop ordered his own followers to give the executioner twenty-five gold pieces. Meanwhile his brethren held out pieces of cloth and handkerchiefs to receive the blood as relics. Then the great Cyprian with his own hands bandaged his eyes, but since he could not tie the corners of the handkerchief, presbyter Julian and subdeacon Julian went to help him.

Thus bishop Cyprian was martyred and his body, because of the curiosity of the pagans, was placed in a place nearby where it was hidden from their indiscreet eyes. It was then carried away at night with lighted flares and torches and accompanied as far as the cemetery of procurator Macrobius Candidianus, which is in the 'Huts' Road near the Baths. A few days later, proconsul Galerius Maximus died.

The holy bishop Cyprian was martyred on September 14th under emperors Valerian and Gallienus, but in the reign of our Lord Jesus Christ, to whom all honour and glory be forever. Amen.

(From the Acta Proconsularia, 3,6)

**GZA** · 02-13-2009, 10:08 PM

And now... excerpts from his writing:

THE UNITY OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

.....For persecution alone is not to be feared, nor the advances
which are made in open attack to overwhelm and cast down the servants of
God. To be cautious is easier when the object of fear is manifest, and the
soul is prepared for the contest beforehand, when the adversary declares
himself. The enemy is more to be feared and guarded against when he creeps
up secretly, when deceiving us under the appearance of peace he steals
forward by hidden approaches, from which too he receives the name of
serpent (creeper, crawler, stealer). This is always his cunning; this is
his blind and dark deceit for circumventing men. Thus from the very
beginning of the world did he deceive and, flattering with lying words,
mislead the inexperienced soul with its reckless incredulity. Thus trying
to tempt the Lord himself, as if he would creep up again and deceive, he
approaches secretly.....'He who hears my words,' He says, 'and does them, I shall liken him to a wise man who built his house upon a rock. The rain descended and the floods came, the winds blew and
beat upon that house, but it did not fall, for it was founded upon a
rock.' Therefore, we ought to stand firm upon His words, and to learn and
do whatever He taught and did. But how does he say that he believes in
Christ who does not do what Christ ordered him to do? Or, whence shall he
attain the reward of faith, who does not keep the faith of the
commandment? He will necessarily waver and wander, and caught up by the
breath of error will be blown as the dust which the wind stirs up, nor
will he make any advance in his walk toward salvation, who does not hold
to the truth of the saving way.

Chapter 3

But not only must we guard against things which are open and manifest but
also against those which deceive with the subtlety of clever fraud..... devise a new fraud, under the very title of Christian name to deceive the incautious? He invented heresies and schisms with which to overthrow the faith, to corrupt the truth, to divide unity. Those whom he cannot hold in the blindness of the old way, he
circumvents and deceives by the error of a new way. He snatches men from
the Church itself, and, while they seem to themselves to have already
approached the light and to have escaped the night of the world, he again
pours forth other shadows upon the unsuspecting, so that, although they do
not stand with the Gospel of Christ and with the observation of Him and
with the law, they call themselves Christians, and, although they walk in
darkness, they think that they have light, while the adversary cajoles and
deceives, who, as the Apostle says, transforms himself into an angel of
light, and adorns his ministers as those of justice who offer night for
day, death for salvation, despair under the offer of hope, perfidy under
the pretext of faith, antichrist under the name of Christ, so that while
they tell plausible lies, they frustrate the truth by their subtlety. This
happens, most beloved brethren, because there is no return to the source
of truth, and the Head is not sought, and the doctrine of the heavenly
Master is not kept.

Chapter 4

If anyone considers and examines these things, there is no need of a
lengthy discussion and arguments. Proof for faith is easy in a brief
statement of the truth. The Lord speaks to Peter: 'I say to thee,' He
says, 'thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the
gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give thee the keys
of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever thou shalt bind on earth shall be
bound also in heaven, and whatever thou shalt loose on earth shall be
loosed also in heaven.' Upon him, being one, He builds His Church, and
although after His resurrection He bestows equal power upon all the
Apostles, and says: 'As the Father has sent me, I also send you. Receive
ye the Holy Spirit: if you forgive the sins of anyone, they will be
forgiven him; if you retain the sins of anyone, they will be retained,'
yet that He might display unity, He established by His authority the
origin of the same unity as beginning from one. Surely the rest of the
Apostles also were that which Peter was, endowed with an equal partnership
of office and of power, but the beginning proceeds from unity, that the
Church of Christ may be shown to be one. This one Church, also, the Holy
Spirit in the Canticle of Canticles designates in the person of the Lord
and says: 'One is my dove, my perfect one is but one, she is the only one
of her mother, the chosen one of her that bore her.' Does he who does not
hold this unity think that he holds the faith? Does he who strives against
the Church and resists her think that he is in the Church, when too the
blessed Apostle Paul teaches this same thing and sets forth the sacrament
of unity saying: 'One body and one Spirit, one hope of your calling, one
Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God'?

Chapter 5

This unity we ought to hold firmly and defend, especially we bishops who
watch over the Church, that we may prove that also the episcopate itself
is one and undivided. Let no one deceive the brotherhood by lying; let no
one corrupt the faith by a perfidious prevarication of the truth. The
episcopate is one, the parts of which are held together by the individual
bishops. The Church is one which with increasing fecundity extend far and
wide into the multitude, just as the rays of the sun are many but the
light is one, and the branches of the tree are many but the strength is
one founded in its tenacious root, and, when many streams flow from one
source, although a multiplicity of waters seems to have been diffused from
the abundance of the overflowing supply nevertheless unity is preserved in
their origin. Take away a ray of light from the body of the sun, its unity
does not take on any division of its light; break a branch from a tree,
the branch thus broken will not be able to bud; cut off a stream from its
source, the stream thus cut off dries up. Thus too the Church bathed in
the light of the Lord projects its rays over the whole world, yet there is
one light which is diffused everywhere, and the unity of the body is not
separated. She extends her branches over the whole earth in fruitful
abundance; she extends her richly flowing streams far and wide; yet her
head is one, and her source is one, and she is the one mother copious in
the results of her fruitfulness. By her womb we are born; by her milk we
are nourished; by her spirit we are animated.

Chapter 6

The spouse of Christ cannot be defiled; she is uncorrupted and chaste. She
knows one home, with chaste modesty she guards the sanctity of one couch.
She keeps us for God; she assigns the children whom she has created to the
kingdom. Whoever is separated from the Church and is joined with an
adulteress is separated from the promises of the Church, nor will he who
has abandoned the Church arrive at the rewards of Christ. He is a
stranger; he is profane; he is an enemy. He cannot have God as a father
who does not have the Church as a mother. If whoever was outside the ark
of Noe was able to escape, he too who is outside. the Church escapes. The
Lord warns, saying: 'He who is not with me is against me, and who does not
gather with me, scatters.' He who breaks the peace and concord of Christ
acts against Christ; he who gathers somewhere outside the Church scatters
the Church of Christ. The Lord says: 'I and the Father are one.' And again
of the Father and Son and the Holy Spirit it is written: 'And these three
are one.' Does anyone believe that this unity which comes from divine
strength, which is closely connected with the divine sacraments, can be
broken asunder in the Church and be separated by the divisions of
colliding wills? He who does not hold this unity, does not hold the law of
God, does not hold the faith of the Father and the Son, does not hold life
and salvation.

Chapter 7

This sacrament of unity, this bond of concord inseparably connected is
shown, when in the Gospel the tunic of the Lord Jesus Christ is not at all
divided and is not torn, but by those who cast lots for the garment of
Christ, who rather might have put on Christ, a sound garment is received,
and an undamaged and undivided tunic is possessed. Divine Scripture speaks
and says: 'Now of the tunic, since it was woven throughout from the upper
part without seam, they said to one another: "Let us not tear it, but let
us cast lots for it, whose it shall be." ' He bore the unity that came
down from the upper part, that is, that came down from heaven and the
Father, which could not all be torn by him who received and possessed it,
but he obtained it whole once for all and a firmness inseparably solid. He
cannot possess the garment of Christ who tears and divides the Church of
Christ. Then on the other hand when at the death of Solomon his kingdom
and people were torn asunder, Ahias the prophet met King Jeroboam in the
field and tore his garment into twelve pieces, saying: 'Take to thee ten
pieces, for thus saith the Lord: "Behold I rend the kingdom out of the
hand of Solomon, and will give thee ten scepters, but two scepters shall
remain to him for the sake of my servant David and for the sake of
Jerusalem the city which I have chosen, that I may place my name there."
When the twelve tribes of Israel were torn asunder, the prophet Ahias rent
his garment. But because the people of Christ cannot be torn asunder, His
tunic woven and united throughout was not divided by those who possessed
it. Undivided, joined, connected it shows the coherent concord of us who
have put on Christ. By the sacrament and sign of His garment, He has
declared the unity of the Church.

Chapter 8

Who then is so profane and lacking in faith, who so insane by the fury of
discord as either to believe that the unity of God, the garment of the
Lord, the Church of Christ, can be torn asunder or to dare to do so? He
Himself warns us in His Gospel, and teaches saying: 'And there shall be
one flock and one shepherd.' And does anyone think that there can be
either many shepherds or many flocks in one place? Likewise the Apostle
Paul insinuating this same unity upon us beseeches and urges us in these
words: 'I beseech you, brethren,' he says, 'by the name of our Lord Jesus
Christ, that you all say the same thing, and that there be no dissensions
among you: but that you be perfectly united in the same mind and in the
same judgment.' And again he says: 'Bearing with one another in love,
careful to preserve the unity of the Spirit, in the bond of peace.' Do you
think that you can stand and live, withdrawing from the Church, and
building for yourself other abodes and different dwellings, when it was
said to Rhaab, in whom the Church was prefigured: 'You shall gather your
father and your mother and your brethren and the entire house of your
father to your own self in your house, and it will be that everyone who
goes out of the door of your house shall be his own accuser'; likewise,
when the sacrament of the Passover contains nothing else in the law of the
Exodus than that the lamb which is slain in the figure of Christ be eaten
in one house? God speaks, saying: 'In one house it shall be eaten, you
shall not carry the flesh outside of the house.' The flesh of Christ and
the holy of the Lord cannot be carried outside, and there is no other
house for believers except the one Church. This house, this hospice of
unanimity the Holy Spirit designates and proclaims, when He says: 'God who
makes those of one mind to dwell in his house.' In the house of God, in
the Church of Christ, those of one mind dwell; they persevere in concord
and simplicity.

Chapter 9

So the Holy Spirit came in a dove. It is a simple and happy animal, not
bitter with gall, not cruel with its bites, not violent with lacerating
claws; it loves the hospitalities of men; when they give birth they bring
forth their offspring together; when they go and come they cling together;
they spend their lives in mutual intercourse; they recognize the concord
of peace by the kiss of the beak; they fulfill the law of unanimity in all
things. This is the simplicity which ought to be known in the Church; this
the charity to be attained, that the love of the brethren imitate the
doves, that their gentleness and tenderness equal that of the lambs and
the sheep. What is the savagery of wolves doing in the breast of a
Christian, and the madness of dogs and the lethal poison of snakes and the
bloody cruelties of beasts? Congratulations are due, when such as these
are separated from the Church, lest they prey upon the doves and sheep
with their cruel and venomous contagion. Bitterness cannot cling and join
with sweetness, darkness with light, rains with clear weather, fighting
with peace, sterility with fecundity, drought with running waters, storm
with calm. Let no one think that the good can depart from the Church; the
wind does not ravage the wheat, nor does the storm overturn the tree
strongly and solidly rooted; the light straws are tossed about by the
tempest; the feeble trees are thrown down by the onrush of the whirlwind.
The Apostle Paul execrates and strikes at these, when he says: 'They have
gone forth from us, but they were not of us. For if they had been of us,
they would have continued with us.'

Chapter 10

Hence heresies have both frequently arisen and are arising, while the
perverse mind has no peace, while discordant perfidy does not maintain
unity. Indeed the Lord permits and suffers these things to happen, while
the choice of one's own liberty remains, so that, while the norm of truth
examines our hearts and minds, the sound faith of those who are approved
may become manifest in a clear light. Through the Apostle the Holy Spirit
forewarns and says: 'For there must be fractions so that those who are
approved among you may be made manifest.' Thus the faithful are approved;
thus the perfidious are disclosed; thus also before the day of judgment,
already here too the souls of the just and the unjust are divided and the
chaff is separated from the wheat. From these are those who of their own
accord set themselves over daring strangers without divine appointment,
who establish themselves as prelates without any law of ordination, who
assume the name of bishop for themselves, although no one gives them the
episcopacy; whom the Holy Spirit in the psalms designates as sitting in
the chair of pestilence, the plague and disease of the faith, deceiving
with a serpent's tongue and masters in corrupting truth, vomiting lethal
poisons from their pestilential tongues, whose speech creeps about like
cancer, whose discussions inject a deadly virus within the breast and
heart of everyone.

Chapter 11

Against such people the Lord cries out; from these He restrains and
recalls His wandering people saying: 'Hearken not to the words of false
prophets, since the visions of their hearts frustrate them. They speak,
but not from the mouth of the Lord. They say to them who reject the word
of God: Peace shall be to you and to all who walk in their own desires. To
everyone who walks in the errors of his own heart (they say): 'Evil shall
not come upon you.' I have not spoken to them, yet they have prophesied.
If they had stood in my counsel and had heard my words, and if they had
taught my people, I would have turned them from their evil thoughts.'
These same people does the Lord again designate and point out, when He
says: 'They have abandoned me to the fountain of living water, and have
dug for themselves broken cisterns which cannot hold water.' Although
there cannot be another baptism than the one, they think that they
baptize; although the fountain of life has been deserted, they promise the
grace of the life-giving and saving water. There men are not washed but
rather are made foul, nor are their sins purged but on the contrary piled
high. That nativity generates sons not for God but for the devil. Being
born through a lie they do not obtain the promises of truth; begotten of
perfidy they lose the grace of faith. They cannot arrive at the reward of
peace who have broken the peace of the Lord by the madness of discord.

Chapter 12

Let not certain ones deceive themselves by an empty interpretation of what
the Lord has said: 'Whenever two or three have gathered together in my
name, I am with them.' Corrupters and false interpreters of the Gospel
quote the last words and pass over earlier ones, being mindful of part and
craftily suppressing part. As they themselves have been cut off from the
Church, so they cut off a sentence of one chapter. For when the Lord urged
unanimity and peace upon His disciples, He said: 'I say to you that if.
two of you agree upon earth concerning anything whatsoever that you shall
ask, it shall be granted you by my Father who is in heaven. For wherever
two or three have gathered together in my name, I am with them,' showing
that the most is granted not to the multitude but to the unanimity of
those that pray. 'If two of you,' He says, 'agree upon earth'; He placed
unanimity. first; He set the concord of peace first; He taught that we
should agree faithfully and firmly. But how can he agree with anyone, who
does not agree with the body of the Church herself and with the universal
brotherhood? How can two or three be gathered in the name of Christ, who
it is clear are separated from Christ and His gospel? For we did not
withdraw from them, but they from us, and when thereafter heresies and
schisms arose, while they were establishing diverse meeting places for
themselves, they abandoned the source and origin of truth. The Lord,
moreover, is speaking of His Church, and He is speaking to those who are
in the Church, that if they are in agreement, if, according to what He has
commanded and admonished, although two or three are gathered together,
they pray with unanimity, although they are two or three, they can obtain
from the majesty of God, what they demand. 'Wherever two or three have
gathered, I,' He said, 'am with them,' namely, with the simple and the
peaceful, with those who fear God and keep the commandments of God. He
said that He was with these although two or three, just as also He was
with the three children in the fiery furnace, and, because they remained
simple toward God and in unanimity among themselves, He animated them in
the midst of flames with the breath of dew; just as he was present with
the two apostles shut up in prison, because they were simple, because they
were of one mind, He opened the doors of the prison and returned them
again to the market-place that they might pass on the word to the
multitude which they were faithfully preaching. When then He lays it down
in His commandments and says: 'Where there are two or three, I am with
them,' He who established and made the Church did not separate men from
the Church, but rebuking the faithless for their discord and commanding
peace to the faithful by His word, He shows that He is with two or three
who pray with one mind rather than with a great many who are in
disagreement, and that more can be obtained by the harmonious prayer of a
few than by the discordant supplication of many.

Chapter 13

So too when He gave the law of prayer, He added, saying: 'And when you
stand up to pray, forgive whatever you have against anyone, that your
Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your offenses.' And He calls
back from the altar one who comes to the sacrifice with dissension, and He
orders Him first to be reconciled with his brother and then return with
peace and offer his gift to God, because God did not look with favor upon
the gifts of Cain; for he could not have God at peace with him, who
through envious discord did not have peace with his brother. What peace
then do the enemies of the brethren promise themselves? What sacrifices do
the imitators of priests believe that they celebrate? Do they who are
gathered together outside the Church of Christ think that Christ is with
them when they have been gathered together?

Chapter 14

Even if such men are slain in confession of the Name that stain is not
washed away by blood; the inexpiable and inexpiable and serious fault of
discord is purged not even by martyrdom. He cannot be a martyr who is not
in the Church. He will not be able to arrive in the kingdom who deserted
her who is to rule. Christ gave us peace; He ordered us to be in agreement
and of one mind; He commanded us to keep the bonds of love and charity
uncorrupted and inviolate. He cannot display himself a martyr who has not
maintained fraternal charity. The Apostle Paul teaches and bears witness
to this when he says: 'If I have faith so that I remove mountains, but not
so that I have charity, I am nothing; and if I distribute all my goods for
food, and if I hand over my body so that I am burned, but not so that I
have charity, I accomplish nothing. Charity is noble, charity is kind,
charity envieth not, is not puffed up, is not provoked; does not act
perversely, thinks no evil, loves all things, believes all things, hopes
all things, bears all things. Charity never will fall away.' 'Never,' he
says, 'will charity fall away.' For she will always be in the kingdom and
will endure forever in the unity of the brotherhood clinging to it.
Discord cannot come to the kingdom of heaven; to the rewards of Christ who
said: 'This is my commandment that you love one another, even as I have
loved you.' He will not be able to attain it who has violated the love of
Christ by perfidious dissension. He who does not have charity does not
have God. The words of the blessed Apostle John are: 'God,' he says, 'is
love, and he who abides in love, abides in God and God abides in him.'
They cannot abide with God who have been unwilling to be of one mind in
God's Church. Although they burn when given over to flames and fire, or
lay down their lives when thrown to the beasts, that crown of faith will
not be theirs, but the punishment of perfidy, and no glorious ending of
religious valor but the destruction of desperation. Such a man can be
slain; he cannot be crowned. Thus he professes himself to be a Christian,
just as the devil often falsely declares himself to be even Christ,
although the Lord forewarned of this saying: 'Many will come in my name
saying: "I am the Christ," and will deceive many.' Just as He is not
Christ, although he deceives in His name, so he cannot seem a Christian
who does not abide in His Gospel and in the true faith.

Chapter 15

For both to prophesy and to drive out demons, and to perform great
miracles on earth is certainly a sublime and admirable thing, yet whoever
is found in all this does not attain the kingdom of heaven unless he walk
in the observance of the right and just way. The Lord gives warning and
says: 'Many will say to me in that day: "Lord, Lord, have we not
prophesied in Thy name and cast out devils in thy name and worked great
miracles in thy name?" And then I will say to them: "I never knew you.
Depart from me ye workers of iniquity." 'There is need of righteousness
that one may deserve well of God as judge; His precepts and admonitions
must be obeyed that our merits may receive their reward. The Lord in the
Gospel, when he was directing the way of our hope and faith, in a brief
summary said: 'The Lord thy God is one Lord,' and 'Thou shalt love the
Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul and with thy
whole strength. This is the first, and the second is like unto it: Thou
shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments depend the
whole law and the prophets.' He taught at the same time unity and love by
the authority of His teaching; He included all the prophets and the law in
two commandments. But what unity does he preserve, what love does he guard
or consider, who mad with the fury of discord splits the Church, destroys
the faith, disturbs the peace, dissipates charity, profanes the sacrament?

Chapter 16

This evil, most faithful brethren, began long ago, but now the dangerous
destruction of the same evil has increased........TheLord teaches and admonishes that we must withdraw from such. 'They are
blind guides,' He says, 'of the blind. But if a blind man guide a blind
man, both shall fall into a pit.' Such a one is to be turned away from,
and whoever has separated himself from the Church is to be shunned. Such a
man is perverted and sins and is condemned by his very self. Does he seem
to himself to be with Christ, who acts contrary to the priests of Christ,
who separates himself from association with His clergy and His people?
That man bears arms against the Church; he fights against God's plan. An
enemy of the altar, a rebel against the sacrifice of Christ, for the faith
faithless, for religion sacrilegious, a disobedient servant, an impious
son, a hostile brother, despising the bishops and abandoning the priests
of God, he dares to set up another altar, to compose another prayer with
unauthorized words, to profane the truth of the Lord's offering by false
sacrifices, and not to know that he who struggles against God's plan on
account of his rash daring is punished by divine censure.

Chapter 18

Thus Core, Dathan, and Abiron, who tried to assume for themselves in
opposition to Moses and Aaron the freedom to sacrifice, immediately paid
the penalty for their efforts. The earth, breaking its bonds, opened up
into a deep chasm, and the opening of the receding ground swallowed up the
standing and the living, and not only did the anger of the indignant God
strike those who had been the authors (of the revolt), but fire that went
out from the Lord in speedy revenge also consumed two hundred and fifty
others, participants and sharers in the same madness, who had been joined
together with them in the daring, clearly warning and showing that
whatever the wicked attempt by human will to destroy God's plan is done
against God. Thus Ozias the king also, when, carrying the censer and
violently assuming to himself the right to sacrifice contrary to the law
of God, although Azarias, the priest, resisted him, he was unwilling to
give way and obey, was confounded by the divine indignation and was
polluted on his forehead by the spot of leprosy, being marked for his
offense against the Lord where they are signed who merited well of the
Lord. And the sons of Aaron, who place a strange fire on the altar, which
the Lord had not ordered, were immediately extinguished in the sight of
the avenging Lord.

Chapter 19

These, certainly, they imitate and follow, who despise God's tradition and
seek after strange doctrines and introduce teachings of human disposition.
These the Lord rebukes and reproves in His Gospel when He says: 'You
reject the commandment of God that you may establish your own tradition.'
This crime is worse than that which the lapsed seem to have committed, who
while established in penance for their crime beseech God with full
satisfactions. Here the Church is sought and entreated, there the Church
is resisted; here there can have been necessity, there the will is held in
wickedness; here he who lapsed harmed only himself, there he who tried to
cause a heresy or schism deceived many by dragging them with him; here
there is the loss of one soul, there danger to a great many. Certainly
this one knows that he has sinned and bewails and laments; that one
swelling in his sin and taking pleasure in his very crimes separates
children from their Mother, entices sheep from their shepherd, and
disturbs the sacraments of God. And whereas the lapsed has sinned once,
the former sins daily.......The words of
the Apostle giving testimony are: 'We charge you in the name of the Lord
Jesus Christ that you withdraw from all brethren who walk disorderly and
not according to the tradition which they received from us.' And again he
says: 'Let no one deceive you with vain words; for because of these things
comes the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be ye not,
therefore, partakers with them.' We must withdraw, rather flee from those
who fall away, lest, while one is joined with them as they walk wickedly,
and passes over the paths of error and crime, wandering apart from the way
of the true road, he himself also be caught in a like crime. God is one
and Christ one and His Church one and the faith one and the people one
joined together by the tie of concord into a solid unity of body. The
unity cannot be torn asunder, nor can the one body be separated by a
division of its structure, nor torn into bits by the wrenching asunder of
its entrails by laceration. Whatever departs from the parent-stem will
not be able to breathe and live apart; it loses the substance of health......
This unanimity existed of old among the Apostles; thus the new assembly of
believers, guarding the commandments of the Lord, maintained their
charity. Scripture proves this in the following words: 'But the multitude
of those who believed acted with one soul and one mind.' And again, 'And
all were persevering with one mind in prayer with the women and Mary the
mother of Jesus and His brethren.' Thus they prayed with efficacious
prayers; thus they were able with confidence to obtain whatever they asked
of God's mercy.....

***D7M*** · 02-14-2009, 07:47 AM

Damn, Gza.

Those are Buffedguy type posts!

I'm betting he will say that the ancient christian fathers don't matter, because it's not the bible.

Anyway, good posts. I, too, always had a fondness for St. Cyprian.

**amcon** · 02-14-2009, 11:38 PM

Originally Posted by derek7m

1. The Catholic tradition has consistently held (from the time of the early fathers) that the word lucifer (meaning brightness, glory) does not actually indicate the actual name of satan, but only indicates the state of glory from which he fell. So, the Catholic tradition has never held that satan (lucifer) was ever actually physically adorned with jewels, since as an angelic being (separated substance), he would not actually have a physical body.

it was his name no dif than many other people in the bible that when their roles changed so was there name... and lucifer was the perfect name for a cherib that shined Gods glory all over the heavens... either way his gloried position or his actual name it was changed.

catholic tradition hasnt held that belief however, the bible is very clear on it (i will quote more at the bottom of this post...)

he had a perfect body - his body was physical enough to be made of those things... and btw i found that in the bible qoute un quote, you said i would never find it in there.... just fyi

--Do you believe angels have physical bodies? (i do have a whole bible study on this that i will post later on... i am taking a note of this and will post when i have more time)

2. The verses you quote from Ezekiel are most properly understood as metaphorically applied to satan. Primarily they are to be taken literally, as is clear from Ez. 28:12, "Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty." (yes, this is the KJV from the site you posted earlier)(thank you). So, the literal interpretation, as is clear from the text, refers to the King of Tyre. same person really, however it can not just be king of t cause it says how he was made... (ezek 11-19, this was writen from a veiw of a prophet has a "fore view" of the antichrist under the title of the "king of tyrus", and as antichrist is to be an incarnatin of satan, the prophet here describes satan's orginal glory from which he fell. NOTE: there hever has been as yet such a king of tyrus as is here described... the cause of satans fall is given in isa 14: 12 - 20. lucifer name was also his title(peter = rock) his glorious title!! the world was made, at which time "the morning stars,"(probably ohter glorious created ruling beings like himself- educated spectulation-) sang togather, and all the sons of God(angles at this time) shouted for joy" job 38:7 - note: "lucifer, son of the morning," is in vs isa 14:4 )

Again, it is a prophecy towards the king of Tyre first (literally), and only secondarily is applied metaphorically to the fall of satan. Incidentally, this metaphorical interpretation is confirmed by Christ's words in Luke 10:18 "I saw satan fall from heaven like lightening" (the bible states (like you said) that satan fell from heaven like lightening, there is no debat on that, how ever that states his fall we were discussing his making and it was very clear - bejeweled and in-layed with musical instruments... and it make sence from what lucifer means YOUR WORDS - (meaning brightness, glory) that seem logical, this all fits... and is stated clearly in the bible )

3. Again, satan does not literally walk, as he does not have a physical body.

yes and no, hes i an angle - but as you know satan is dwelling in a persons body - that can walk... evil spirits like human bodys see below (i understand you point - he doesnt "walk" however the point is he move freely apon the earth...)

...he cast out the spirits with [his] word... (Matt. 8:16)
...he gave them power [against] unclean spirits, to cast them out... (Matt. 10:1)
...the evil spirits went out of them... (Acts 19:12)
...in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits... (1 Tim. 4:1)
...For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles... (Rev. 16:4)
...for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. (2 Cor. 11:14)

I assume you're refering to I Peter 5:8 "8: Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour." (KJV). Or perhaps Job 1:7? Regardless, do you really have such an anthropomorphic view of angelic beings?(Anthropomorphism is the attribution of uniquely human characteristics to non-human creatures and beings, satan tries very hard to fit in... and if this is what you ment then yes i think we all seem to be too much of the sinly flesh...)

"walking and back forth on the earth" from Job is clearly metaphoric. Similar to how the Psalms describe God as having a "strong arm" or being a "fortress". God does not literally have a strong arm.(page me when you are infront of God and make sure you tell him that "God you dont really have a stong arm! (whack, squish, splat), as you get smacked with judgement... lol - just making fun of that statement, and He is a fortress isnt he?... and the vs i was refering to is: rev 12:7 - 17 )

4. What is this very different picture that the Catholic church paints of Satan?

(not sure where you were going here?)

**amcon** · 02-14-2009, 11:44 PM

Originally Posted by derek7m

Damn, Gza.

Those are Buffedguy type posts!

I'm betting he will say that the ancient christian fathers don't matter, because it's not the bible.

Anyway, good posts. I, too, always had a fondness for St. Cyprian.

lol didnt read all that cut and paste stuff ... but, if is not in the bible yep im not reading it and as for "christian fathers" the mormans call them selves christians an you might as well be qouting them ... dont get me wrong (just for the record) i strongly believe in reading the writings of others, and there ideas on the bible - but at that point i would sit down and word for word compair it with scripture... after that i would put it in front of a very knowledgable person (pertaining to the scriptures) and ask lots of question that i would again put against the scriptures... o ya pray about it alot too.

**amcon** · 02-14-2009, 11:49 PM

Originally Posted by GZA

actually more than 2/3rds of my response WAS in the KJV as you can tell by the little kjv's listed at the end of almost every single verse for the first 2/3rd's of my paper but I guess you had no respoces for those huh? bother to respond to that and I'll bother to repeat every quote I didn't give in the KJV in exactly the bible you want to read it in. Although of course I've highlighted the fact that you are operating under false ussumptions by only accepting the KJV as worth reading (in that I've highlighted a number of inaccuracies in it already). Nice try though, if I was presented with about 40 quotes in opposition to my faulty interpretation of my about 3 quotes I'd find it a rather daunting task to try to deal with all those facts also.

the important thing to point out here is your admission "my faulty interpretation"... enough said....

he he he

**amcon** · 02-15-2009, 12:11 AM

Ok, amcon... let's back things up a bit and not be so combative... I've taken note that one of the obvious reasons you are so quick to doubt the teachings of the Catholic Church is becuase you've never really heard of all the historical data that plainly shows that the earliest christians all believed as we do. All the ancient Christians interpreted the bible the same as me and derek do... It's funny when I hear you quote the teachings of this or that guy and say he knows what he's talking about and we should to read up on him... these people are living 2,000 years after the fact... that's almost as if I traveled 500 years into the future and tried to argue with the writings of the most ancient muslims as it relates to what muhhamed was teaching his followers when not only am I not some ancient muslim... I don't even know arabic!! Obviously I would have NO IDEA what I'm talking about. Plainly... if all the writings of all the most ancient muslims we have a record of all seemed to suggest a completely different understanding of islam than the one I had... I'd be willing to bet that it was my interpretation that was faulty becuase I lived in a completely different time and understood a completely different language... the culture of the times would be completely lost on me and I really would have no Idea how muhhamed planned for his religion to be taught.. my cursory readings of my english translation of the arabic and my interpretations based on a complete ignorance of the history and culture of islam would be all I had. So let's take a trip through history and investigate what all these ancient Christians had to say about the topics we've been debating so far... because you are not only debating me... you are debating practically every Church father ever lived... for example your concept of sola scriptura (the bible alone) there is no historical record of ANY christian EVER believing in such a thing for the first 1,000 years of Christianity!!! Kind of makes you wonder huh??? either all of the ancient Christians Got it wrong... or simply some english speaking quack from 2,000 years in the future has no Idea what he's talking about when it relates to a culture and language that existed 2,000 years ago.

^^^^your quote^^^^

i doubt the teaching of catholics cause: it is of man not of scripture - it is that simple... for thou hast strengthened me. 20 Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come. 21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and [there is] none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince. Daniel 11 1 Also I in the first year of Darius the Mede, [even] I, stood to confirm and to strengthen him. note: the bible is used to show what is noted in the scriptures not "im going to take you to my church or to my pope"

be ours. 8 And they took him, and killed [him], and cast [him] out of the vineyard. 9 What shall therefore the lord of the vineyard do? he will come and destroy the husbandmen, and will give the vineyard unto others. 10 And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner: 11 This was the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 12 And they sought to lay hold on him, but feared the people: for they knew that he had spoken the parable against " read this scripture"..."the stone which the builderrs rejected is become the head" - Jesus is the Word... the Word is Jesus...

lol - my concept of sola scripture - that is a catholic lable - i said YOU need to read the bible - if you have the bible as a catholic imo you have a fighting chance... and sola scripture is not my stance it is part of how you should learn, how ever catholics, some of them - scrach that - most of them believe they are not able to read it... that as i have proved is not from God... he wants us in the bible daily !!!

some defs of historical
# history - the aggregate of past events; "a critical time in the school's history"
# history - a record or narrative description of past events; "a history of France"; "he gave an inaccurate account of the plot to kill the president"; "the story of exposure to lead"
# history - the discipline that records and interprets past events involving human beings; "he teaches Medieval history"; "history takes the long view"
# history - the continuum of events occurring in succession leading from the past to the present and even into the future; "all of human history"
# history - all that is remembered of the past as preserved in writing; a body of knowledge; "the dawn of recorded history"; "from the beginning of history"

funny thing no where is the above def does it say anything about a supernatural God... so it must be from man thus FLAWED!!!!... point lets as the germans about the jews and what happen during the holicust ? tisk tisk you can do better than that...

vvvvvyour qoutevvvvv

or simply some english speaking quack from 2,000 years in the future has no Idea what he's talking about when it relates to a culture and language that existed 2,000 years ago.

^^^^^your qoute^^^^^

bla bla bla... so that conterdics your thoughts and statements about the priest and pope being able to teach the bible like you say... they are just men and how could they know what happen so long ago... humm???? did they read their bibles??? lol

**amcon** · 02-15-2009, 12:19 AM

next time i respond i will just cut and past the kjv... lol that would be the nicest thing i could do for you... as for backing off no way i hope to force you into reading the bible and seeing the truth... and i am praying that your hart not to be so hard. as for you salvation - and all that matters - i see you know some version of the bible, satan also knows the bible and refuses to follow it(im not saying you refuse to follow it), be the best you can at taking what is put in front of your self from the church and study the scriptures....

and fyi the cut and paste thing is a lack of effort and care for you God - you should have answers to this first hand - point is express your self - and do some cut and pastes...

as for buffed 95% of his stuff is written from his studying the scriptures (the first 5 we use)

**amcon** · 02-15-2009, 12:22 AM

Chapter 19

These, certainly, they imitate and follow, who despise God's tradition and
seek after strange doctrines and introduce teachings of human disposition.
These the Lord rebukes and reproves in His Gospel when He says: 'You
reject the commandment of God that you may establish your own tradition.'

read this again and where i underlinded it - this seems like he is directly talking about a church that is puting mans teachings above Gods - catholic church seem to fit that

**amcon** · 02-15-2009, 12:24 AM

bla bla bla to everthing else... though some of it i actually read

***RAGE*** · 02-15-2009, 12:30 AM

I am learning a lot keep it going

**amcon** · 02-15-2009, 01:00 AM

ok,

about adams sin: or the intro to Sin in to man.... note how clearly this is stated

[12] Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
[13] (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
[14] Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
[15] But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
[16] And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
[17] For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
[18] Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
[19] For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
[20] Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
[21] That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

the point has been made - not by a sinner like me but by God himself... sin = death, the good news or the gospel is that by one man we are saved - Christ our Lord!! that is to say Jesus - amen!!! how do you do that? just ask i will be more to help point out how...

next!!!!

information of warnings in the bible note the "not of sound doctrine" that refers to being taught the bible from men...(being taught scripture is correct when it is compared to sound doctrine) and NOT compairing it to scripture. the bible is the final word until the Lord raptures the church...

**amcon** · 02-15-2009, 01:12 AM

[14] But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
[15] But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
[16] For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

to sum up...

non-christians can not comprehend God, and they can not grasp the concept that Gods spirt lives in believers. dont expect most people to approve of or understand your decisions to follow Christ, it all seems crazy to them. just as a tone deaf persons cannot appricaite fine music...(that is me i just dont get "fine" music) the person who rejects God can not understand Gods beautiful message(or thinks he cant read his word with any understanding - and relies on man to teach him soley... devils work). the lines of communication are broken and he cannot hear what God is saying to him. real bad stuff...

**amcon** · 02-15-2009, 01:19 AM

Originally Posted by peachfuzz

Can a Christian believe in evolution?

If sin is the cause of death...then did death occur before sin?

how about info on dinos in the bible? are they in there? and if they are, will it help clean up the idea of evolution as compaired to Gods creation? (evolution = meaning the creation of the earth and man via a amebias and one celled creatrures)

note with the above - if we started from one cell shouldnt we be advancing on our genitic structure? (we have 23 cormozones, and as we evolved wouldnt that mean we are becoming more complex and go to 24 or 25 or 225 cromozones .... right? )

***D7M*** · 02-15-2009, 08:02 AM

Amcon's original post in regular font, my response is in bold....

it was his name no dif than many other people in the bible that when their roles changed so was there name... and lucifer was the perfect name for a cherib that shined Gods glory all over the heavens... either way his gloried position or his actual name it was changed.

Yes, this is fine.

catholic tradition hasn't held that belief however, the bible is very clear on it (i will quote more at the bottom of this post...)

Catholic tradition hasn't held that belief? Dude, I am 110% positive this is true. Unless you can provide me some data for your conclusion, instead of simply asserting an opinion.

he had a perfect body - his body was physical enough to be made of those things... and btw i found that in the bible qoute un quote, you said i would never find it in there.... just fyi

Ok, so you do believe that separated substances (ie, angels) have physical bodies.

--Do you believe angels have physical bodies? (i do have a whole bible study on this that i will post later on... i am taking a note of this and will post when i have more time)

same person really, satan and the king of Tyre are the same person? What? This sounds like a man-made tradition to me...

however it can not just be king of t cause it says how he was made... (ezek 11-19, this was writen from a veiw of a prophet has a "fore view" of the antichristThis discussion has absolutely nothing to do with the anti-christ. I don't know why you are bringing that up here under the title of the "king of tyrus",correction: Tyre and as antichrist is to be an incarnatin of satan, correction, this is from those "Omen" movies, not the Bible. The Bible does not say the antichrist will be the "incarnation of satan", which smacks of some sort of dualism.the prophet here describes satan's orginal glory from which he fell. NOTE: there hever has been as yet such a king of tyrus as is here described...Are you serious? Are you saying there has never existed an historical king of Tyre? Almost every ancient historian attests to this...Eusebius, Josephus, Heroditus. To hold your position is like saying, there was no Julius Caesar, b/c it's not in the Bible

(the bible states (like you said) that satan fell from heaven like lightening, there is no debat on that, how ever that states his fall we were discussing his making and it was very clear - bejeweled and in-layed with musical instruments... and it make sence from what lucifer means YOUR WORDS - (meaning brightness, glory) that seem logical, this all fits... and is stated clearly in the bible )

Again, do you understand metaphors? And the way in which the Bible employs them?

yes and no, hes i an angle - but as you know satan is dwelling in a persons body - that can walk... evil spirits like human bodys see below (i understand you point - he doesnt "walk" however the point is he move freely apon the earth...)

Satan is not dwelling in a person's body. Satan is a fallen angel, and as such is a spiritually created being. Please show me where it says this in the Bible. If you answer nothing else, show me where it says "Satan is incarnated in someone's body"

...he cast out the spirits with [his] word... (Matt. 8:16)
...he gave them power [against] unclean spirits, to cast them out... (Matt. 10:1)
...the evil spirits went out of them... (Acts 19:12)
...in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits... (1 Tim. 4:1)
...For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles... (Rev. 16:4)
...for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. (2 Cor. 11:14)

fyi, these refer to demonic possession, not your doctrine of "satanic incarnation". Only the Word, the second person of the trinity can become incarnate.

(Anthropomorphism is the attribution of uniquely human characteristics to non-human creatures and beings, satan tries very hard to fit in... and if this is what you ment then yes i think we all seem to be too much of the sinly flesh...)

That is what I meant by the word "anthropomorphism", but your conclusion is illogical. see below for explanation.

page me when you are infront of God and make sure you tell him that "God you dont really have a stong arm! (whack, squish, splat), as you get smacked with judgement... lol - just making fun of that statement, and He is a fortress isnt he?... and the vs i was refering to is: rev 12:7 - 17 )

I'm not saying God doesn't metaphorically have a strong arm. I'm saying he doesn't *literally* have a strong arm, because he doesn't have a body! Do you see the difference? Do you really believe God has a body? Because God is so infinitely beyond human understanding, we must use analogical language to describe him. So, saying something like, "God has a strong arm" refers to his omnipotence, but not that he has a literal strong arm. I really, really hope you don't believe God has a body.

What is this very different picture that the Catholic church paints of Satan? I'm leaving this in bold, b/c you never answered it

not sure where you were going here?

What aren't you clear on?

***D7M*** · 02-15-2009, 08:10 AM

Originally Posted by amcon

lol didnt read all that cut and paste stuff ... but, if is not in the bible yep im not reading it and as for "christian fathers" the mormans call them selves christians an you might as well be qouting them ... dont get me wrong (just for the record) i strongly believe in reading the writings of others, and there ideas on the bible - but at that point i would sit down and word for word compair it with scripture... after that i would put it in front of a very knowledgable person (pertaining to the scriptures) and ask lots of question that i would again put against the scriptures... o ya pray about it alot too.

I think Gza's point (correct me if I'm wrong, Gza), was to show that there exists solid empirical data for the beliefs of Catholics from the earliest Christian writers. This indicates that the earliest followers of Jesus believed the same thing that Catholics still believe today.

So, it's an historical point. If one wants to get a clear picture of what the followers of a particular movement believed, where would you look...to recent writings, or to ones that are chronologically closest to the inception of the movement?

Further, if you think about, when was the "bible" as we know it today compiled? By whom? Was there *any* external authority from the bible itself that canonized the bible as we know it today?

Even secular scholars admit there was a time in early Christianity when there were no "bibles" (as we think of today). What did they do then? How could they just "read their bibles"?

***D7M*** · 02-15-2009, 08:28 AM

Your quotes in regular font, my responses in bold.

read this scripture"..."the stone which the builderrs rejected is become the head" - Jesus is the Word... the Word is Jesus...

Ok, this is true. Both Catholics and Protestants would agree to this statement. But you fail to make any logical connection to the issue at hand.

lol - my concept of sola scripture - that is a catholic lable - i said YOU need to read the bible - if you have the bible as a catholic imo you have a fighting chance... and sola scripture is not my stance it is part of how you should learn, how ever catholics, some of them - scrach that - most of them believe they are not able to read it... that as i have proved is not from God... he wants us in the bible daily !!!

Um, actually, sorry, no. The label of "sola scriptura" comes from the earliest Protestants, particularly Luther. For them it was the cry "sola scriptura, sola gratia, sola fide" that defined who they were.

From what I have seen you write, your position is very closely aligned to sola scriptura. How is your view different?

Almost no Catholic believes that are not "able to read the bible". And if they do they are mistaken. One mistaken view should not be taken to be the aggregate of Catholic doctrine. Gza and I are not making generalized statements about Protestants, you should do the same in terms of Catholics. We do believe we are not competent to interpret the Bible for ourselves, however. But reading and interpreting are two different things.

some defs of historical
# history - the aggregate of past events; "a critical time in the school's history"
# history - a record or narrative description of past events; "a history of France"; "he gave an inaccurate account of the plot to kill the president"; "the story of exposure to lead"
# history - the discipline that records and interprets past events involving human beings; "he teaches Medieval history"; "history takes the long view"
# history - the continuum of events occurring in succession leading from the past to the present and even into the future; "all of human history"
# history - all that is remembered of the past as preserved in writing; a body of knowledge; "the dawn of recorded history"; "from the beginning of history"

funny thing no where is the above def does it say anything about a supernatural God... so it must be from man thus FLAWED!!!!... point lets as the germans about the jews and what happen during the holicust ? tisk tisk you can do better than that...

I'm missing your point about the Holocaust, but it might be best to let that analogy slide. So you're saying *all* human sciences that do not mention a supernatural God are flawed? Really? In this logic, the law of gravity would be flawed then? Because it doesn't state that "God created gravity" but only that bodies fall at a certain rate of speed. I have seen people hold this position before....it's a hard line to follow, my friend.

vvvvvyour qoutevvvvv

or simply some english speaking quack from 2,000 years in the future has no Idea what he's talking about when it relates to a culture and language that existed 2,000 years ago.

^^^^^your qoute^^^^^

bla bla bla... so that conterdics your thoughts and statements about the priest and pope being able to teach the bible like you say... they are just men and how could they know what happen so long ago... humm???? did they read their bibles??? lol

Catholics believe that the pope has authority to speak definitely on matters concerning only faith and morals. It is a gift given to him by the Holy Spirit. So, in this capacity, he does not act as a man, but as a man speaking with God's authority. Gza and I have already provided numerous biblical references to the authority given to the apostles.

***D7M*** · 02-15-2009, 08:30 AM

Originally Posted by amcon

Chapter 19

These, certainly, they imitate and follow, who despise God's tradition and
seek after strange doctrines and introduce teachings of human disposition.
These the Lord rebukes and reproves in His Gospel when He says: 'You
reject the commandment of God that you may establish your own tradition.'

read this again and where i underlinded it - this seems like he is directly talking about a church that is puting mans teachings above Gods - catholic church seem to fit that

Again, both Gza and I have provided numerous biblical examples of the existence of an oral tradition, to which you have not responded.

Maybe Gza does, but I don't have the energy to keep repeating myself.

***D7M*** · 02-15-2009, 08:47 AM

Originally Posted by amcon

how about info on dinos in the bible? are they in there? and if they are, will it help clean up the idea of evolution as compaired to Gods creation? (evolution = meaning the creation of the earth and man via a amebias and one celled creatrures)

note with the above - if we started from one cell shouldnt we be advancing on our genitic structure? (we have 23 cormozones, and as we evolved wouldnt that mean we are becoming more complex and go to 24 or 25 or 225 cromozones .... right? )

The bible does not directly speak about dinosaurs.

Of course they existed, there is scientific proof for that.

Nor does that change my theological views that God created *everything* (including dinosaurs) ex nihilo (from nothing). At the same time, I hold a scientific view that life developed through biological evolution.

As far as dinosaurs go, the Church does not directly say one thing or the other about them (remember the church instructs us in faith and morals, not science, and the two should not be conflated). Personally, I believe God created dinosaurs, which then then evolved, and at one point became extinct...more likely from an asteroid, not the flood in Genesis.

**Voland** · 02-15-2009, 08:55 AM

would it be a final battle?

**amcon** · 02-15-2009, 05:26 PM

Originally Posted by Voland

would it be a final battle?

would what be in a final battle?

**GZA** · 02-16-2009, 12:41 AM

Ok Amcon, it seems to me there are are probably at least 50 or so points that me and Derek have made that you have had no response to… and any response you think you have either doesn’t deal with the issue or pretty much shows your lack of understanding of what we are trying to say. So I’ll deal with these issues one by one perhaps… We’ll start with the issue about tradition.
The Catholic position is that
1. Traditions of MEN that go against the Word of God are FALSE
2. Traditions of God that make up part of the Word of God and/or came from the inspiration of God are TRUE and to be followed even if they are passed down with WORDS
3. Supposed scripture that claims to be of God but is only of MEN is FALSE
4. Scripture that is truly inspired by God is TRUE and to be followed.

So therefore…. If you give me a verse that vouches for #4 or #1 as a Catholic I’ll say great, I agree… so every verse you’ve ever bothered to point out on this topic so far that either vouched for either #4 or #1 was a complete waste of your time because we are in AGREEMENT on those terms……. All you’ve really been doing by pointing out verses like that is your complete misunderstanding of the Catholic position…
The issue at hand is that both Derek and I have been showing you a number of verses that back up #2 how do you deal with this??? Backing up 1 and 4 with scripture??? You are only backing up part of the Catholic position by doing that… so quit wasting your and my time with that… deal with the ISSUE which is that we are saying that God’s word isn’t limited to scripture and the Gospel wasn’t ONLY taught by scripture as many verses in the bible point out…. Notice the word “ONLY” (in that wasting your time pointing out examples of the Word of God being contained in scripture is a waste of time… we agree it’s taught in scripture just not ONLY in scripture) do you understand logic???
If a catholic says BOTH apples and oranges are delicious
And you say ONLY oranges are how do you argue against the catholic position???? By pointing out verses that say oranges are delicious?????????????? NO!!!! CATHOLICS AGREE ORANGES ARE DELICIOUS just like we agree scripture is inspired by God and good for teaching and so on and so forth…. So stop wasting your time….. simply pointing out verses we agree with… try pointing out verses that disagree with our position… for instance…
Find some verses that say ALL traditions are wrong not just traditions of MEN… and if you think you can find some verses that say this then you need to explain to us why it is that there are a number of verses that commend you for following some traditions (because then you’d have a problem of the bible contradicting itself if your interpretation of those verses are correct)… OBVIOUSLY if some traditions are to be followed according to the bible ALL traditions can’t be evil and of men!!! Start using your brain. So either disprove our contention that SOME traditions (ie the ones that come from God) are to be followed or prove that ALL traditions are to be rejected, and try to do it without making the bible contradict itself… (good luck with that because it’s impossible)
And as far as sola scriptura… don’t sit around pointing out the bible is inspired by God… that’s just a complete waste of time DEAL WITH THE ISSUE. WE KNOW THE BIBLE IS INSPIRED BY GOD the question is if the bible is the ONLY thing inspired by God…. And by what you have been saying it isn’t… you AGREE that the interpreter has to be inspired by God in order to be guaranteed a correct interpretation of the bible right??? You’ve even said yourself that the Holy Spirit inspires YOU when you read the bible right????? So the real issue at hand isn’t if people can be inspired by God when they are trying to interpret the bible, the real issue is WHO can we look to as guaranteed to be inspired by God????? I have shown that there are TONS Of people who claim to be inspired by God only to end up getting it completely wrong (i.e. by pointing out that there’s some 35,000 disagreeing forms of protestant Christianity all claiming that they got their interpretations from the Holy Spirit). So simply believing you are inspired by God to interpret scripture means NOTHING because ALL of these erroneous forms of Christianity THINK they have it right but are actually wrong (by the obvious fact that only one of these forms of Christianity could have possibly gotten it all right)….. You telling me that your beliefs are inspired by God is just as believable as if a Mormon comes to my door and tells me that the Holy Spirit inspired him to know his Book of Mormon is true… there is ABSOLUTELY NO LOGICAL BASIS FOR THAT ARGUMENT. You can say “oh we’re talking God and this and that” so you don’t need logic… but then why are you debating If you are already agreeing your position is illogical???… as far as argument’s go you already lost…. Because all debates can do is decide a victor based on the laws of logic PERIOD… So don’t pretend your position is logical if it isn’t…. for example YOU ARE USING CIRCULAR REASONING WHICH IS ILLOGICAL!!!!!!!!!!!!! You say you know the truth because you read it in the bible right???? And how do you know the bible is inspired by God????? BECAUSE THE BIBLE SAYS IT IS????!!!! You are using the bible to back up the bible….. what if I told you I was a prophet from God and everything I say is true because I said it’s true and I use the mere fact that I said I was inspired by God is PROOF that I’m inspired by God???? Would that be really Proof???? Of course not!!! Unless of course I could prove independently from my own claims that I'm inspired by God!!!! You see??? If circular reasoning was a Locical argument every cult sect denomination, whatever has an equally valid basis as you do!!! Now if you asked a Catholic why he believes his bible is inspired by God he would tell you that it’s inspired by God because the Catholic Church has dogmatically defined it as being inspired by God… and you would then ask… how do you know that whatever this church defines as a dogma is necessarily true??? And I would say there is a vast historical record that shows that Jesus founded this church and gave it the power to speak in his name and you would say well how do you know what Jesus said is necessarily true and I would say because he is God as can be shown by this and that historical data highlighting the fact that he fulfills all these messianic prophecies and so forth …. Notice!!! NO CIRCULAR REASONING……… so try it yourself…. You tell me your bible is inspired by God… without circular reasoning tell me how you know it is??????????? And if you come back with oh I have faith and so on and so forth… you are ALREADY claiming defeat as it relates to a logical debate…. You can believe what you like, but you CANT claim it has a logical basis if you are ultimately relying on faith to tell you that your beliefs are true. (I’m not attacking faith here, I’m just saying it’s incompatible with trying to present your belief system in a logical debate)… so to summarize………
Step 1.
Deal with our debate on tradition by either proving that all traditions are to be rejected (and therefore having to deal with the numerous verses that commend you for following some traditions) or that specifically… traditions of GOD, that are part of the Gospel or that came from God's inspiration are to be rejected… because that’s the ONLY way you are going to actually deal with the issue at hand
Step 2. As far as sola scriptura Goes….. Don’t waste your time offering verses that back up the use and truth of scripture…. The position isn’t scriptura… its SOLA scriptura as in ONLY scripture… so show me verses that attack ANY OTHER FORM OF AUTHORITY THAT ISN’T SCRIPTURE OR GO HOME (and yes, deal with all the verses that suggest that there are ORAL, SPOKEN forms of the Gospel and Word of God…. )
Step3. Although we both agree the bible is inspired by God…. I’d like to see how the heck you come to a LOGICAL conclusion that the bible is inspired by God WITHOUT using circular reasoning. Because I have no idea how you’d do that without relying on the authority of the Catholic Church as one piece of the logical puzzle.

**GZA** · 02-16-2009, 01:03 AM

Originally Posted by amcon

note with the above - if we started from one cell shouldnt we be advancing on our genitic structure? (we have 23 cormozones, and as we evolved wouldnt that mean we are becoming more complex and go to 24 or 25 or 225 cromozones .... right? )

wow... I see from this that not only do you completely misunderstand Catholic teaching before you try to attack it (and end up sounding ridiculous in the process), you also do the same for the theory of evolution... having more chromosomes doesn’t necessarily mean you are more evolved... and without natural selection at work the driving force for evolution STOPS so in other words... the way the modern world works, at this time HUMANS ARE NO LONGER EVOLVING (generally speaking of course)… perhaps you should educate yourself more on these topics before you decide you can attack them…… what are you going to do next… attack Einstein’s theory of relativity or perhaps the Law of Gravity based on the fact that you can “jump” :P… or maybe you’ll try to attack the idea that the world is a sphere based on the fact that you haven’t fallen off of it yet :P.... you're just making yourself sound foolish

**GZA** · 02-16-2009, 01:33 AM

Originally Posted by amcon

Where does the bible say I need a kjv bible??????????????? NOWHERE
Where does the bible say that I NEED to go to bible study???????? NOWHERE
Is bible study profitable? Is reading the bible a good thing? Sure. But is it necessary for salvation??????????????? Nope!!!!!!!!!!! Do you have any idea how many illiterate People there are that have lived through the centuries?????? Are they all doomed to hell?????????? Don’t be ridiculous :P

***lets make this very clear... very clear.... the bible says you need to read it end of story the kjv bible is the closest to the actually scriptures and this you know... you have been led (wrongly i will add) that you are not smart enough to read the bible, and that the Holy Gost is not good enought to empower you to read it for you self... you must rely on a pope to translate it for you. and that my friend is wrong!!!

***the bible as you have so many time stated that you should also be tought the bible... thus BIBLE STUDYunless your incorrect bible has twisted that in it verses as well...

***now you want to bring up what i have first stated - none on this matters NONE with out the trust in God and you and me asking for salvation - so it is good to hear that you have that foundationaly piece down - all this is me and you having extra time on our hands to debate why trusting in a man (pope) to lead to your salvation is biblically WRONG!! ti takes the diety and the deeds of sacrifice of our Lord from what he desirves credit for.

you know just as well as i do that each person will be shown the light of God in his or her life time...

what you are arguing is that the bible is not important - that you must be taught the bible... i am stating what the bible says - what the bible says is all that matters

Bible Reading: (--- what did that say? bible readings not "let me read the bible to you cause you are less than i am !!!"(as the person pounds their chest!!!)

Isaiah 34:16 Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.

2 Tim 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.(see you testify of the pope and the church and will be judge for that... did you know that? no cause "they" didnt tell you that)

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.(note: notice how this vrs says recieved the word with all readiness, that could imply that it was taught to them, then what does it say? they searched the scriptures after the instruction - were you not taught that as well? of coarse not - they dont what you to know the truth)

Deuteronomy 17:19 And it shall be with him, and he shall read therein all the days of his life: that he may learn to fear the LORD his God, to keep all the words of this law and these statutes, to do them:

Isaiah 34:16 Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.

Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.(note: now we see that we get a blessing if we read)

Holy Spirit - Teaching the Word:

Proverbs 1:23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.(hu? were you worried about salvation for the illierate? ye have little faith!! or you just dont know the true Lord... i pray you do)

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.(ditto to the last one)

point amcon

^^^^^ --- just some humor - but you arguments are half sided at best with lack of a strong bible and being lead by a man not the Holy Ghost... that is what i should expect? no way you know you bible at least the bible you have... that is a good thing, just get in to the kjv it will bring out more of the love of God to you and you knowledge.

yeah... this entire post was a waste of your time... I KNOW THE BIBLE IS GOOD TO READ, I KNOW TRUTH CAN BE FOUND IN THE SCRIPTURES... you are not arguing against me but WITH me... the issue is if God’s truth is ONLY found in the scriptures... I have shown you many verses which say that truth can be found BOTH in the teachings of Gods Church (and his appointed leaders) AND the scriptures... for example even the evil sinning scribes and Pharisees… that Jesus pretty much condemns to hell… what does he instruct the Jews to do regarding their TEACHINGS… “Observe and do whatever they tell you for they sit on the seat of Moses!!!!!!!!!! “but do not do as they do for they preach but do not practice”… in other words no matter how evil they had become, no matter how many sins they were committing , Jesus Christ himself told the Jews to follow WHATEVER they said!!! Because they wielded the same authority of Moses.. in that God would make sure what they taught was correct…. THAT is one (of many) specific quotes that prove that MEN CAN BE GIVEN AUTHORITY TO TEACH AND THAT GOD HIMSELF VOUCHES FOR THEIR TEACHINGS IN ADDITION TO THE TEACHINGS FOUND IN SCRIPTURE!!!!!! Where does it even say in the bible that there was a “seat of Moses” back in the Old Testament (a handing down of his authority)????? You see Jesus was even referring to something that wasn’t explicitly taught in the Old Testament as a TRUTH!!! And you claim that EVERYTHING is found in the bible????? Before Jesus came and cleared that up for us… the Jews lived for over a thousand years without having any verses to point to as it relates to this “seat of Moses” and yet for that entire time the existence of the “seat of Moses” and those who wielded his authority was most certainly was a reality of God’s religion….
Matt 23:1-3
23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 ALL THEREFORE WHATSOEVER THEY BID YOU OBSERVE, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
KJV

**GZA** · 02-16-2009, 03:08 AM

Originally Posted by amcon

the person who rejects God can not understand Gods beautiful message(or thinks he cant read his word with any understanding - and relies on man to teach him soley... devils work). the lines of communication are broken and he cannot hear what God is saying to him. real bad stuff...

It's not the devils work if God himself instructs us to follow the teachings of these men..... I guess perhaps you think it's "God's work" to be a Mormon or what have you because they AGREE WITH YOU as it relates to BOTH using the King James Version AND relying on the "Holy Spirit" to enlighten them when they are reading scripture.... So everyone go grab their bible and make up whatever you think the bible says and start your own church and crown yourself a teacher of God's word when you know nothing about what you're talking about... you think the sort of Chaos that spawned 35,000 different forms of conflicting, arguing disagreeing denominations is of God???? Do you think your philosophy has lead all these forms of Protestantism to Gods truth????????? When either 0 out of 35,000 or, at best 1 out of 35,000 of these denominations could have possibly had the Holy Spirit teaching them as it relates to every doctrine they follow????????? How many arguing conflicting denominations have been spawned out of those Christians who acknowledge the authority of the Pope to teach infallibly in 2,000 years?????????? 0!!!! How many have been lead astray into error following your "path to truth" (i.e. read it in your bible and claim the Holy Spirit inspired your interpretation) about 35,000 so you tell me....
1 truth in 2,000 years
Or 35,000 opposing versions of the truth in 500 years….

Which philosophy of finding Gods truth was spawned by God and which philosophy was spawned by the devil………. So you are saying God wants us to pretty much place our soul on some roulette wheel with 35,000 slots and just cross our fingers and hope we are in the right denomination????????? Your way of discerning truth is really just a way of being lead astray….. why did God even make a Church????????
Eph 4:14
14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles.
RSV
Now don’t tell me you think that Protestants are not being “tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine”……… ALMOST EVERY SINGLE DAY A NEW PROTESTANT CHURCH IS MADE with it’s own particular version of the “truth” (do the math…there is a new form of Protestantism in existence for almost every single day that has passed since Protestantism was first established)… Was God the author of this Chaos??????? I think the Devil was very pleased to see the institution of such anarchy when it comes to creating your own “Christian” religion…. As long as someone “thinks” that’s what the bible says and claims that “God told him so” then it becomes a perfectly valid form of Protestantism…… what a joke…….. Now the stability of the Catholic Church………. One belief system for 2,000 years…. With as many believers in existence today as all other forms of Christianity COMBINED… THAT is the stability of God’s church… THAT is the church where we are no longer like children tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine!
John 17:22-23
22 The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me.
RSV
Jesus Christ himself prays to God the Father in the bible that his people be PERFECTLY ONE as a sign to prove to the world “that thou has sent me…”. Do you doubt that Jesus’ prayer came true??????????? ONLY IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH can you find such stability and perfected unity!!!!! …….. the Catholic Church has not divided A SINGLE TIME IN 2,000 YEARS… but EVERY SINGLE DAY the PROTESTANT CHURCH DIVIDES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now which Church do you think Jesus was praying for in the above verse??????????? Are Protestants “PERFECTLY ONE”?????????????? If not… then they have nothing to do with the people Jesus was referring to in this verse. Only the One Catholic (universal) Church can claim such unity………… to remind you… as The World Book Encyclopedia puts it:
The office of Pope was founded on the words of Christ: "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter [which means a rock], and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" ( Matthew xvi, 18). The attention of every historian has been attracted by the endurance of the Papacy through centuries that have seen the downfall of every other European institution that existed when the Papacy arose, and of a number of others that have originated and fallen, while it continued t flourish. The Roman Catholic offers these facts as evidence that the Church is not merely a human institution, but that it is built "upon a rock," (The World Book Encyclopedia © 1940, Page 5730 Volume13)

Since we both know by now that Jesus Built his house upon a "rock"... here's another verse from the bible to shed more light on the implications of this idea... because part of being founded on a "rock" means that your institution is built upon a firm foundation and your institiution will not fail or collapse....
Matt 7:24 and following:
24 "Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash."
NIV
Now Jesus is a wise man right?????? Now what sort of foundation do you think he would build the house of God (the Church) upon???????? Sand??????? Or a Rock??????? So I ask…….. Who’s house in 2000 years has not fallen????? And who’s house in only 500 years has fallen and shattered into some 35,000 different pieces????????? You are fooling yourself if you think your idea of how to find truth (just anyone can make it up and claim it came from Gods inspiration) has anything to do with the firm, unshakable foundation Jesus intended for his Church. While Protestantism leads people astray with a thousands upon thousands of lies invented daily…. Catholicism keeps people in unity all proclaiming the same united and unshakeable teachings for 2,000 years…. Sorry my friend but there is only ONE truth… there is no room for new versions of the truth, Jesus Christ already established HIS version of the truth 2,000 years ago.