The unofficial ask a Christian thread

[D7M]

So you are saying that it isn't there? Pretty clear the bible calls Jesus god's son hundreds of times.

No, no. The doctrine is there. Definitely. Just not the word "trinity".

Nor it is expressed in the terms I used.

Jesus also says, "I and the Father are one"....but he doesn't talk about divine subsistent relations. See my point?

[Squatman51]

another way to word it is that I think the bible is a good way to teach you how to live your life, however I do not believe alot of the stories in it and don't believe that a person goes to heaven or hell. If i live my life somewhat by the bible in perspective of being the best person I can on earth, what happens to someone like me when I die if I have no faith of the lord, heaven, hell or anything like that?

[FallenWyvern]

Me and my wife are one...

Just saying that Jews don't believe in Trinity. And when you read NT at face value it isn't there clearly. Even the ones that are like the one you quoted speak to duality. Who was Jesus praying to?

[D7M]

another way to word it is that I think the bible is a good way to teach you how to live your life, however I do not believe alot of the stories in it and don't believe that a person goes to heaven or hell. If i live my life somewhat by the bible in perspective of being the best person I can on earth, what happens to someone like me when I die if I have no faith of the lord, heaven, hell or anything like that?

alright, well I respect your beliefs, bro.

This was at the heart of that other thread 'what happens when you die if you're not religious'....even the title betrays itself.

the way I look at is this...the existence of these realities are not dependent upon a contingent beings' belief system. In other words, heaven or hell exist whether you believe in them or not.

see what I mean?

[FLAMEHAIREDADONIS]

Why do Christians expend more "moral" energy opposing abortion than fighting genocide. Why are christians concerned about non-sentient human embryos than about the lifesaving promise of stem-cell research.

Why does God have an obsession with consentual nonharmful sexual activities? Hence preaching against condom use in sub-Saharan Africa while millions die from AIDS there each year. HPV causes nearly two hundred thousand women to die each year from cervical cancer. We have a vaccine for HPV but christians have stopped a vacination program due to beliefs it will encourage pre-marital sex.

Could go on look forward to your dogmatic/metaphysical reply.

[fit4ever]

You know why people get so uptight about religion or spiritual beliefs? It's because we want all people to see the world through our own eyes. Because in our own opinion, we have the best view of the world as well as the best seat in the house. And if you're seeing it differently, it's human instinct to encourage someone to "jump ship" so they can experience the world the same way that you do.

[BuffedGuy]

Why are you answering question in this thread????this is not meant to be hate full!!!

Peace be unto you, Prone2Rage.

You are the second person to message me with this, so I'll just respond here. I only answered one single question in this entire thread, which was "what is the oldest known religion in the world?" That question had nothing to do with Christianity, and so I answered. Sue me! Sheesh!

There is not a single other question I've "answered" in this thread. I understand it is Derek's and I respect that.

As for what you just called hateful, how is my post hateful? I'm not even criticizing Christianity in it. Rather, I was merely trying to show that the intuitive understanding one gets from reading that Biblical verse is that it is critical of homosexuality; that isn't meant to induce hatred of Christianity, since my own religion says the exact same thing.

Hope that clears up the matter. Having said that, I think Derek is bored with questions on the same topic, so I think we can move on, God-Willing.

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

[gst528i]

So what if there is a person who is one of the nicest and kindest people in the world and does all they can to help others, but is not religious at all. They believe that there is no god.

So they cannot be sent to heaven then right? but how could someone like that be sent to hell? Or will they be sent to neither of them since they believe in neither heaven or hell?

You asked the same question i did in the ask muslim thread. I always think that all religions are wrong about this as they will be biased in trying to get you have faith in their religion.
If God truly is an perfect as he is, and made us far from perfection than i don't see how he can have people that do good deeds not because they read it in the bible, but do it out of the kindness in their hearts would go to hell just because you did not believe in organized religion. But have those who confess thier sins go to heaven.

[BuffedGuy]

Peace be unto you, Derek.

Can you explain to me the mainstream Christian view towards the Old Testament and the Law? Are these two things (the OT and Law) applicable today? I suspect the answer is in between yes and no, so can you tell me to what degree exactly? Just give some elaboration on this matter, God-Willing.

Thanks.

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

[FLAMEHAIREDADONIS]

You asked the same question i did in the ask muslim thread. I always think that all religions are wrong about this as they will be biased in trying to get you have faith in their religion.
If God truly is an perfect as he is, and made us far from perfection than i don't see how he can have people that do good deeds not because they read it in the bible, but do it out of the kindness in their hearts would go to hell just because you did not believe in organized religion. But have those who confess thier sins go to heaven.

So basically you pick and choose what you wish to believe in the bible. This cracks me up. Christian point out the bible calls homosexuality an abomination but totally ignore that it also says the same thing about shell fish or that you should not let menstruating women into church. It is time to stop showing respect to people who proclaim things to be true without evidence. The truth is that no one knows what happens to us when we die how do I know this because you do not possess special mental powers that I do (Bill MAHER).

[D7M]

Me and my wife are one...

Just saying that Jews don't believe in Trinity. And when you read NT at face value it isn't there clearly. Even the ones that are like the one you quoted speak to duality. Who was Jesus praying to?

Ok, now I see what you're getting at. I wasn't really sure before.

You're right, Jews don't believe in the Trinity, since it was part of Christian revelation.

Probably the clearest biblical reference to the trinity is from Matt 28 (amcon quoted this earlier I think)..."go forth and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit." From the use of the terms themselves, it's clear that the three persons are distinct, as the terms are mutually exclusive. Further, with the inclusion of the Holy Spirit as a third person, it shows that this third person is co-equal with the other two persons. Similarly, he (Jesus) does not say, "in the names" but "in the name" of the three persons, indicating God's unity.

John's Gospel has very clear references to Christ's divinity. And further in the NT, the writings of St. Paul and the other apostles make distinct references to the existence of a triune God.

Beyond this, there is definitive evidence from the earliest Church fathers that the belief in the Trinity was a widely held and revered Christian belief.

As I said before, Catholics don't *have* to prove doctrines only from Scripture alone. So, at the end of John's Gospel, he says, "But there are also many other things that Jesus did which, if they were written every one, the world itself. I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written." Indicating an oral tradition as well as a written tradition.

[gst528i]

So basically you pick and choose what you wish to believe in the bible. This cracks me up. Christian point out the bible calls homosexuality an abomination but totally ignore that it also says the same thing about shell fish or that you should not let menstruating women into church. It is time to stop showing respect to people who proclaim things to be true without evidence. The truth is that no one knows what happens to us when we die how do I know this because you do not possess special mental powers that I do (Bill MAHER).

I have never read the bible, i am not christian or any other religion. I am not saying you pick and read what you want to believe. Sorry i ddin't say it right.
I meant a person living his life to the best of his abilities. I can not say without commiting sin since he or she doesn;t read the bible. But lead a life without harming other, stealing you things any sane person can comnprehend to be right vs wrong.

[FLAMEHAIREDADONIS]

I have never read the bible, i am not christian or any other religion. I am not saying you pick and read what you want to believe. Sorry i ddin't say it right.
I meant a person living his life to the best of his abilities. I can not say without commiting sin since he or she doesn;t read the bible. But lead a life without harming other, stealing you things any sane person can comnprehend to be right vs wrong.

Fair comment sorry thought you were a theist. My rant is purely towards arrogant religous people with omnipotent, omnicient imaginary friends who tell us how we should live based on total BS.

[D7M]

I have never read the bible, i am not christian or any other religion. I am not saying you pick and read what you want to believe. Sorry i ddin't say it right.
I meant a person living his life to the best of his abilities. I can not say without commiting sin since he or she doesn;t read the bible. But lead a life without harming other, stealing you things any sane person can comnprehend to be right vs wrong.

so, around 1967, this theologian Karl Rahner came up with this idea he called "anonymous Christianity" It was a big buzz word for a while (sadly, still kinda is). Alot of conservatives didn't like it. He basically said something along the lines of gst's reasoning...that it could be possible for someone who has never been baptized or a practicing christian to attain salvation, through God's mercy, by simply living a life in conformity to the "natural law".

So, apply this to someone living in a remote village somewhere who never heard the Christian message...would it be just for God to condemn this person to hell, even though through no fault of his own he was unable to be baptized?

[D7M]

Peace be unto you, Prone2Rage.

You are the second person to message me with this, so I'll just respond here. I only answered one single question in this entire thread, which was "what is the oldest known religion in the world?" That question had nothing to do with Christianity, and so I answered. Sue me! Sheesh!

There is not a single other question I've "answered" in this thread. I understand it is Derek's and I respect that.

As for what you just called hateful, how is my post hateful? I'm not even criticizing Christianity in it. Rather, I was merely trying to show that the intuitive understanding one gets from reading that Biblical verse is that it is critical of homosexuality; that isn't meant to induce hatred of Christianity, since my own religion says the exact same thing.

Hope that clears up the matter. Having said that, I think Derek is bored with questions on the same topic, so I think we can move on, God-Willing.

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

It didn't bother me at all that you answered.

But I read prone as saying his post to you was not meant to be hateful....

[D7M]

Peace be unto you, Derek.

Can you explain to me the mainstream Christian view towards the Old Testament and the Law? Are these two things (the OT and Law) applicable today? I suspect the answer is in between yes and no, so can you tell me to what degree exactly? Just give some elaboration on this matter, God-Willing.

Thanks.

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

good question, buff.

it's funny, I was actually just talking to someone about this the other day. he was saying how its politically incorrect to talk speak in terms of supersessionism. I argued against him saying that it's not politically incorrect, it's just a matter of fact.

Anyway....while the Decalogue (the 10 Commandments) still form a foundational part of christian moral theology, the customs and practices are no longer binding on Christians. So, yes, Christians can eat cheese burgers (which of course an orthodox Jew would not). Things like that are no longer applicable under the New Law (of grace).

Didn't we talk about this in another thread. About the 'council' of Jerusalem in Acts 15?

[amcon]

Butt sex is a sin. The two people you speak of were man and woman.
So being gay isn't a sin but butt sex is, weather with a man or woman!
So is birth control and masterbation!
In the scripture it states In so many words that God would rather you spew into the body of a whore than to waste it.

being gay is a sin... just the thoughts of xxxx(any thing you think can be a sin) noah's son Ham did something to his father that caused him and his blood line to be cursed for ever... cursed because Ham sinned

as for [/QUOTE]God would rather you spew into the body of a whore than to waste it.[/QUOTE] get me that vers and i will research it

[amcon]

"When a man has sexual intercourse with another man as with a woman, both men are doing something disgusting and must be put to death. They deserve to die." (Leviticus, 20:13, http://bible.cc/leviticus/20-13.htm)

The verse doesn't intuitively read in the way you are saying. Perhaps Derek can shed some light on it, God-Willing...although I think he wants to stay away from the topic. I certainly did in my thread.

correct... not that God hates the people, he hates the act of the sin

[amcon]

Why is the catholic church so rich, yet there is so much poverty in the world?

many many ways to answer this... i would like to point to end times and what part of the church will still be here... when the grooms bride church is raptured

[BuffedGuy]

But I read prone as saying his post to you was not meant to be hateful....

Ahhhhh, whoops! I misread his post. Sorry about that, prone2rage.

[D7M]

being gay is a sin... just the thoughts of xxxx(any thing you think can be a sin) noah's son Ham did something to his father that caused him and his blood line to be cursed for ever... cursed because Ham sinned

as for

God would rather you spew into the body of a whore than to waste it.[/QUOTE] get me that vers and i will research it[/QUOTE]

I'll treat the first part later. I have to run to a stupid meeting where nothing happens and people sit around and blah, blah blah...

I think he's talking about the sin of onanism, from Gen. 38. More on this later, too.

Now go research, Amcon!

[amcon]

In bold.

Jesus' death on the cross happen once, that was good enough, he doesnt need to die again each sunday x how many churches the cathlolics have... where in john 6 does it mention that?

[amcon]

In bold. I disagree. You're referring to the hierarchy of truths, namely, that some truths are more important as they pertain directly to our salvation. Other practices and certain customs that do not pertain directly to our salvation would not be as high on the hierarchy of truths. In the Catholic church, the Sacraments are high on the list hierarchy since they are visible signs of receiving grace.

are the "hierarchys" high in the perfect Word of God? because mans truths are not of God... man's truths are as good as dirty rags...

[D7M]

Jesus' death on the cross happen once, that was good enough, he doesnt need to die again each sunday x how many churches the cathlolics have... where in john 6 does it mention that?

I don't know which post you're refering to.....

the Gospel of John 6:25-72.

aaaah....damn meetings. I'll be back

[BuffedGuy]

aaaah....damn meetings. I'll be back

Damn the meetings, but not the meeters.

[amcon]

the catholic church would say homosexuality is a sin, just like they would say adultery, or sex outside marriage is a sin. the point is that being homosexual doesn't make you sinful or dirty, but it is the acting out on those feeling (just like a heterosexual) that makes the act sinful.

skinny Kenny is right in what he said. The story of Sodom and Gommorah refers to the sin of sodomy, not necessarily homosexuality.

agreed!!! amen (first part)

second part - sodomy comes from where? and what was widely preformed in the cities? and what happened to the cities? who destroyed the cities?

point is that the srory of sodomy and gommorah is relivent to the answer

[amcon]

1. Yes, God loves all of hHs creation. He send the sinner sinner to hell because besides being the most merciful, he is also the most just. Besides it is a metaphysical impossibility to disassociate the sin (act) from the person (agent). How could God condemn an act to hell and not the person who committed it?

2. No, all sins are not equal. As I said above, Catholics don't need to appeal to Scripture to justify their beliefs, since we also believe in the equal authority of tradition, but I will for the Protestants following this thread

I John 5:16, "He that knows his brother to sin a sin which is not to death, let him ask: and life shall be given to him who sins not to death. There is a sin unto death. For that I say not that any man ask. All iniquity is sin. And there is a sin unto death."

Besides, it is clear that some sins are obviously graver than other sins. A mortal sin is defined by the fulfillment of these three conditions: 1) grave matter, 2) full consent of the will, and 3) sufficient deliberation. (of these, I think I think 2) is the hardest requirement. I mean, you have to really, really want to do this sin, even though you know it is grave).

i will quickly point out here the diff between what the bible says and what tradition says is not the same... case in point the elite of israel knew the bible yet they did not see the masshia come the first time because of traditions and pride... (dont let pride clout the word of God)

[BuffedGuy]

agreed!!! amen (first part)

second part - sodomy comes from where? and what was widely preformed in the cities? and what happened to the cities? who destroyed the cities?

point is that the srory of sodomy and gommorah is relivent to the answer

I'm going to have to agree with Amcon on this...I find the 'it's sodomy, not homosexuality' argument to be disingenuous and a form of revisionism.

[amcon]

1=he doesn't send sinners to hell...you have a choice by what you do in your life!

2=all I can tell you is that someplace in the bible it states a sin is a sin!
But that being said....sure there are diferent degrees of sin from a human stand point.
But to God if to cheat on a math test or rape someone it is still a sin and you will be judged if you have not asked for forgiveness!you see all sine are equal in Gods eyes because the sin (no matter the degree) keeps you from obtaining what God has for you

correct according to the bible

correct according to the bible

[xlxBigSexyxlx]

By what method do you determine the difference between the voice of God, and the voice of the Devil pretending to be God?

and

Is it possible that the devout Catholic, Adolph Hitler, could be in heaven if he had truly repented prior to his death?

[amcon]

This is a fair question.

But it's also like asking why any wealthy corporation (if you will allow the loose analogy between the church and a corporation) doesn't give all its money to the poor?

Also, the church is not as rich as everyone thinks it is. That's why in the last few years we've seen so many church closing and parish mergers. Church attendance (at least in the Catholic church) has dropped dramatically since 1965, so there's a big loss of contributions, too.

Truth be told, the majority of the money in the church is in the religious orders (Franciscans, Dominicans, Jesuits, Benedictines, etc). Since these religious orders are self-operating (according to canon law), the general church has no control over their funds.

Someone did this study a while ago (I'll see if I can dig it up) about this. They found that even if the church gave all its money away to the poor (which of course doesn't really make sense, b/c then they wouldn't even be able to offer services to anyone), poverty would still exist.

much of the churches assets are not liquid as well... building that would have little or no value 5 million dollar church building on a 70 thousand dollar plot of land = true value of the property less than 70 thousand dollars (the cost of the demolition of the church would be expensive)

[amcon]

i heard once (on TLC) that revolations was written by John while on an island with pagons. and that it is strongly believed that the book was never meant to be in the bible but instead his way of converting the people of the island/ region to which he was at the time.. ... and knowledge or thought on that topic?

also the same specail said that it is widely believed that the mark of the beast is not 666 but 616. which would have been the empire at times number.

the REVELATION Jesus Christ was written to reveal the full identiy of Christ and to give warning and hop eto believers, auther was apostle john, it was written to the 7 churches in Asia and all belivers every where, date about a.d. 95 from PATAMOS.

if you heard it on tlc it was most likely something to disprove the bible and cast shadows on the perfect Word.

[amcon]

well, we'll have to just disagree on this one, since we come from different Christian traditions.

I've already stated my reasons above.

I don't know where in the Bible it says "a sin is a sin".

You're right that both mortal and venial sins carry temporal punishment due to sin. The difference is that the graver sins (mortal) also cause a break in sanctifying grace.

do you have scripture for that? (sorry just a quick note to remind my self of the answer - parable of the man who owned the winery... he paid every on the same, even thought they did different amount of work - )

[amcon]

Explain the belief of the trinity.

i amcon am

a father to my children

a son to my mom

a leader/husband to my wife

God built us with the same foundation - however we lost the Holy Ghost due to sin in the garden of adam and eve. thus, we lost that portion and Jesus came back to provide us with that piece...


short answer

[amcon]

I understand what you are saying, however lets just look at the vatican. There are hunreds of priceless, artifacts and paintings, now where in the bible does it teach us to hord these things?? Again even if they sold eveything you are right, it wouldnt feed all the starving, but it will feed some. Do you think that if Jesus came back to earth now, walked into the vatican, saw its splendour, saw what was being spent to run the place, saw all those priceless artifact, would he be pleased???

good point - he would do what he did to the pharesses and the scribes and the publicans as he flipped the tables over... imo

[Voland]

During the Spanish civil war and long dictatorship Catholic priests colaborated with the dictatorial regime, offered prayers for well known mass assassins and persecuted anyone who was not an active christian. My greatgrandfather was almost killed (he had to exile) for being oppenly pagan. My mom was forced to baptise(i mean literally forced, with cops guarding inside the church) and the priest asked my grandparents to change my mom's name cos the present one was not biblical. How's all that coherent with the christian message of tolerance and so on.

Never forget.

[D7M]

Jesus' death on the cross happen once, that was good enough, he doesnt need to die again each sunday x how many churches the cathlolics have... where in john 6 does it mention that?

well, catholics certainly don't believe that Christ dies again every Sunday at Mass.

The Mass is a true sacrifice, but Christ is not killed over and over again. Rather the sacrifice of Mass is a re-presentation of sacrifice of the cross in an unbloody manner.

[D7M]

are the "hierarchys" high in the perfect Word of God? because mans truths are not of God... man's truths are as good as dirty rags...

"dirty rags"....sounds like something Luther would say. Are you Lutheran by chance?

Anyway, what I mean by hierarchy of truths is that there are certain Christian truths that one must believe to be Christian. Examples would be, the divinity of Christ, the Trinity, the Incarnation, the Resurrection, the list goes on. (and believe it or not its actually a difficult task to compose a thorough list of these "necessary truths"...but, roughly, let's say at least the Apostles creed).

There are other things, like theological opinion which do not carry the same weight as the articles of faith...so, one can be either a supra-lapsarian or an infra-lapsarian and still be a good Christian.

Then there are other things, like customs and practices, which people often confuse with necessary truths of faith. No joke, I actually knew first hand of a Baptist church that split because some men thought they didn't have to wear ties to church. The other have of the men thought God wanted them to wear ties. The church split into the "ties" and "no-ties", with both sides passionately claiming that the other group were not "real Christians".

[D7M]

i will quickly point out here the diff between what the bible says and what tradition says is not the same... case in point the elite of israel knew the bible yet they did not see the masshia come the first time because of traditions and pride... (dont let pride clout the word of God)

We might just have to, again, disagree on this one.

But I'll quickly say this:

1. You say the bible is the sole authority, but where in the bible does it actually say that? ( and II Tim 3:16-17 only really speaks about inspiration, not authority)

2. The bible itself says that there are oral tradition, and that they too should be given equal reverence (pari peitatis affectu) to scripture. II Thess. 2:15, "Therefore, brethren, stand fast: and hold the traditions, which you have learned, whether by word or by our epistle".

[D7M]

correct according to the bible

correct according to the bible

you both keep saying this...that the Bible somewhere says "a sin is a sin".

I have yet to see it.

In fact, the one verse I offered seems to show otherwise.